Scots and English
Scots and English
While recuperating in the hospital this morning I was watching a political program and they had the results of a poll which suggested that 52 percent of Scots would like to have a fully independent Scotland. Interestingly 59 percent of English also wanted an independent Scotland, which I found a little amusing and chalked that down as one nil to the English at least on a comic level. They did not seem to have asked the Welsh whether they wanted an indepdent Scotland, which was a bit unfair. Now I don't want this thread to turn into a scot or english bashing forum as all of us in the rest of the world love you both whether you are married or divorced, but your opinions would be welcomed, but lighthearted please, and no haggis bashing, I love haggis.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Scots and English
i just want to watch 'monarch of the glen'. and see pipers. 
clancy sent me some great pipers! i'm in love with the entire black watch!
clancy sent me some great pipers! i'm in love with the entire black watch! Scots and English
lady cop;469337 wrote: i just want to watch 'monarch of the glen'. and see pipers. clancy sent me some great pipers! i'm in love with the entire black watch!
Thats a lot of lads to be in love with at once!
clancy sent me some great pipers! i'm in love with the entire black watch! Thats a lot of lads to be in love with at once!
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Scots and English
Okay, I'm going nap time now, I will tell the nurses you were all asking for them.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
-
Richard Bell
- Posts: 1228
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:56 am
Scots and English
Our esteemed politicians just passed a motion that les Quebecois comprised a nation within a united Canada.
I guess that's pretty much the deal Scotland has now with the UK.
As a foreigner with overwhelmingly deep Scottish roots, I'd favour an independent Scotland.
I guess that's pretty much the deal Scotland has now with the UK.
As a foreigner with overwhelmingly deep Scottish roots, I'd favour an independent Scotland.
Scots and English
In the old days the English and Scottish armies used to fight by gathering their armies on top of the hills and at day break they would run down the hillside into the deep gorge below to fight.
One morning at dawn there was a fog (as thick as pea soup) and the two English generals decided to refrain from fighting that day. Whilst the two armies were resting a voice, with a Scottish accent came from within the dense fog.
"Any one Scot can beat any 10 Englishmen".
On hearing this, the English generals sent down 10 of their soldiers. There was a hell of a fight and NO ONE returned. An hour later, the same voice was heard.
"Any one Scot can beat any 50 Englishmen".
This time the English generals sent down 50 men. The same thing, a terrible fight ensured and again NO ONE returned. An hour later the same voice.
"Any one Scot can beat any 100 Englishmen".
Same same, down went 100 of the best. NO ONE returned. An hour later.
"Any one Scot can beat any 1,000 Englishmen".
The generals sent down 1,000 men. None came back.
An hour later:-
"Any one Scot can beat any 10,000 Englishmen".
By this time, the English generals had had enough and was about to send down their elite soldiers, when he saw a lone Englishman crawling up the hill. He was battered to a pulp. As he reached his general he said, "Don't send any more troops down, sir, its a trap, his wife is there too!
One morning at dawn there was a fog (as thick as pea soup) and the two English generals decided to refrain from fighting that day. Whilst the two armies were resting a voice, with a Scottish accent came from within the dense fog.
"Any one Scot can beat any 10 Englishmen".
On hearing this, the English generals sent down 10 of their soldiers. There was a hell of a fight and NO ONE returned. An hour later, the same voice was heard.
"Any one Scot can beat any 50 Englishmen".
This time the English generals sent down 50 men. The same thing, a terrible fight ensured and again NO ONE returned. An hour later the same voice.
"Any one Scot can beat any 100 Englishmen".
Same same, down went 100 of the best. NO ONE returned. An hour later.
"Any one Scot can beat any 1,000 Englishmen".
The generals sent down 1,000 men. None came back.
An hour later:-
"Any one Scot can beat any 10,000 Englishmen".
By this time, the English generals had had enough and was about to send down their elite soldiers, when he saw a lone Englishman crawling up the hill. He was battered to a pulp. As he reached his general he said, "Don't send any more troops down, sir, its a trap, his wife is there too!
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
Scots and English
If 52% percent of scots want it & 59% of english want it how come we havent got it? Are we waiting on the welsh & irish to put forward a vote?
-
Richard Bell
- Posts: 1228
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:56 am
Scots and English
ArnoldLayne;469401 wrote: Its been part of United Kingdom since the Act of the Union some 300 years ago
On what grounds do you think either would benefit if seperation took place ?
Purely sentimental reasons.
As I said, I'm a foreigner. I'll leave it to the Scots to sort out the pros and cons.
The Chancellor Gordon Brown (who is Scottish ) argues in favour of a United Kingdom as does the Home Secretary and the Scottish Secretary (Who are both also Scottish).
"Damned Scots ! They ruined Scotland !" :yh_rotfl
Groundskeeper Willie
On what grounds do you think either would benefit if seperation took place ?
Purely sentimental reasons.
As I said, I'm a foreigner. I'll leave it to the Scots to sort out the pros and cons.
The Chancellor Gordon Brown (who is Scottish ) argues in favour of a United Kingdom as does the Home Secretary and the Scottish Secretary (Who are both also Scottish).
"Damned Scots ! They ruined Scotland !" :yh_rotfl
Groundskeeper Willie
Scots and English
Most scots were fairly ambivalent about devolution (we know what a useless bunch our poiticians are) until the thatcher years. She more than anyone else persuaded scots to vote in favour of it.
http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1709532006
Scotland as a whole has a more socialist disposition than England. England would be predominantly voting tory. That's why Labour politicians like Blair and Brown are agin it as they realise with Scots independence labour would never get in in england.
Our electioral system is badly flawed, it stuck us with the tories when the majority of voters didn't want them just as we are stuck with labour despite most people in this counry being increasingly hostile to TB and his cronies.
As it is The english should really be asking why scottish MP's are voting on policies that are purely english and will not be implemented in Scotland.
England itself is a very diverse country-there is a distinct North south divide and very different cultures, the rural picture of a green and pleasant land is a bit different from the city dwelling reality.
When it comes down to it most scots are wary of independence. The threat of voting for it keeps labour in thrall which is where they should be. The tories are a complete irrelevance now.
http://news.scotsman.com/politics.cfm?id=1709532006
Scotland as a whole has a more socialist disposition than England. England would be predominantly voting tory. That's why Labour politicians like Blair and Brown are agin it as they realise with Scots independence labour would never get in in england.
Our electioral system is badly flawed, it stuck us with the tories when the majority of voters didn't want them just as we are stuck with labour despite most people in this counry being increasingly hostile to TB and his cronies.
As it is The english should really be asking why scottish MP's are voting on policies that are purely english and will not be implemented in Scotland.
England itself is a very diverse country-there is a distinct North south divide and very different cultures, the rural picture of a green and pleasant land is a bit different from the city dwelling reality.
When it comes down to it most scots are wary of independence. The threat of voting for it keeps labour in thrall which is where they should be. The tories are a complete irrelevance now.
Scots and English
Diuretic;469520 wrote: Scottish nationalism is a terrible thing to witness. Some years ago I was driving in Scotland in a rental car I picked up in London and I committed a faux pas in the traffic on the approach to a bridge. Realising my mistake I nipped into a convenient space after first checking that I wasn't going to endanger myself or any other road user. Seconds later there was a knock on my side window. I wound down the window to be greeted by a fellow road user who informed me, "Mate, in this country we obey the road laws!" Since the car I was driving didn't have an Australian flag sticker or indeed a ring of corks dangling from it I can only assume that the registration indicated that the vehicle came from Sassenach country.
It seems to me that Scotland has limited options in terms of complete self-government. I am well aware of the fearsome reputation that Scottish soldiers have had in various wars and that some strategically important RAF and RN bases are in Scotland but short of a regional alliance how would Scotland protect itself? I think this is an understandable statement of national pride but in terms of policy it won't amount to much.
Mind you it would be as funny as hell to see Billy Connolly made Ambassador for Scotland to the Court of St James.
To be serious for a minute I don't see that there would be any problem with Scotland being an indendent country, but after being such an integral part of the U.K. for so long it wouldn't be straightforward either and I'm sure that if Scotland was to become indepdent it would still maintain very strong defence and economic ties with England as that would be the only sensible option for both Nations given their close ties in every way. My own opinion is that all the nations of the British Isles share a strong affinity and whether Scotland and Wales remains in the UK or become independent one day, the important thing is to for the three countries and Ireland as well to be good neighbours and friends with each other.
It seems to me that Scotland has limited options in terms of complete self-government. I am well aware of the fearsome reputation that Scottish soldiers have had in various wars and that some strategically important RAF and RN bases are in Scotland but short of a regional alliance how would Scotland protect itself? I think this is an understandable statement of national pride but in terms of policy it won't amount to much.
Mind you it would be as funny as hell to see Billy Connolly made Ambassador for Scotland to the Court of St James.
To be serious for a minute I don't see that there would be any problem with Scotland being an indendent country, but after being such an integral part of the U.K. for so long it wouldn't be straightforward either and I'm sure that if Scotland was to become indepdent it would still maintain very strong defence and economic ties with England as that would be the only sensible option for both Nations given their close ties in every way. My own opinion is that all the nations of the British Isles share a strong affinity and whether Scotland and Wales remains in the UK or become independent one day, the important thing is to for the three countries and Ireland as well to be good neighbours and friends with each other.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Scots and English
As a Scot who is both Nationalist and Republican (and has a working brain cell) I can tell you that the only reason the post-Thatcher "United Kingdom" has not broken up is - without the Scottish economy, the British "state" is bankrupt.
In short, if Scotland was not a net contributor to the UK Treasury the establishment would not give a monkeys about our independence.
In short, if Scotland was not a net contributor to the UK Treasury the establishment would not give a monkeys about our independence.
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
Scots and English
Chookie;469651 wrote: As a Scot who is both Nationalist and Republican (and has a working brain cell) I can tell you that the only reason the post-Thatcher "United Kingdom" has not broken up is - without the Scottish economy, the British "state" is bankrupt.
In short, if Scotland was not a net contributor to the UK Treasury the establishment would not give a monkeys about our independence.
I think GMC has the right of it - if you remove the solid Labour vote in Scotland the prospects of the English Labour party would be seriously dented.
The other major factor would be the EU funding that would become available to many Scotlish regions if they became an independant member.
For me, if they want to go, let them.
In short, if Scotland was not a net contributor to the UK Treasury the establishment would not give a monkeys about our independence.
I think GMC has the right of it - if you remove the solid Labour vote in Scotland the prospects of the English Labour party would be seriously dented.
The other major factor would be the EU funding that would become available to many Scotlish regions if they became an independant member.
For me, if they want to go, let them.
Scots and English
i prefer RUM, sodomy and the lash myself....god i love churchill.
Scots and English
Diuretic;469911 wrote: What all three?? :wah:
Just kidding, I know what you mean, I just couldn't resist being a smartarse. :Dthat's why i like you!!! hey, another LEO here, karaze papa, go look ...
Back for the moment ( 1 2)
KarazePapa
Just kidding, I know what you mean, I just couldn't resist being a smartarse. :Dthat's why i like you!!! hey, another LEO here, karaze papa, go look ...
Back for the moment ( 1 2)
KarazePapa
Scots and English
Diuretic;469535 wrote: Good points gmc. Interesting observation about the Scots tendency towards socialism. From fading memory I remember contrasting Robert Owen, the Scots socialist factory-owner and Jeremy Bentham, the English utilitarian who favoured free markets, two very different approaches to workers' welfare. But yet again I digress.
On edit - I am wrong, Owen was Welsh but he lived in Scotland (I had to go and look it up after I thought about it - I did say I had a fading memory
)
Adam Smith-the so called father of capitalism was scots. You should have read at what he actually wrote rather than what people say he wrote.
http://www.adamsmith.org/smith/won-index.htm
Jeremy Bentham also argued in favour of universal suffrage, competitive exams for those who would be politcians and european unity which put him up there with loony left. Neither of them advocated rampant capitalism without social responsibility and both I suspect would object to the protectionism if both the EU and eec. Despite all the talk of free markets both shy away from it in practice but pretend they don't.
Never actually read all of bentham, found his style of writing heavy going.
posted by diuretic
Scottish nationalism is a terrible thing to witness. Some years ago I was driving in Scotland in a rental car I picked up in London and I committed a faux pas in the traffic on the approach to a bridge. Realising my mistake I nipped into a convenient space after first checking that I wasn't going to endanger myself or any other road user. Seconds later there was a knock on my side window. I wound down the window to be greeted by a fellow road user who informed me, "Mate, in this country we obey the road laws!" Since the car I was driving didn't have an Australian flag sticker or indeed a ring of corks dangling from it I can only assume that the registration indicated that the vehicle came from Sassenach country.
I hope the rest of your viit was friendlier. Sadly we have our share of pillocks.
On edit - I am wrong, Owen was Welsh but he lived in Scotland (I had to go and look it up after I thought about it - I did say I had a fading memory
)Adam Smith-the so called father of capitalism was scots. You should have read at what he actually wrote rather than what people say he wrote.
http://www.adamsmith.org/smith/won-index.htm
Jeremy Bentham also argued in favour of universal suffrage, competitive exams for those who would be politcians and european unity which put him up there with loony left. Neither of them advocated rampant capitalism without social responsibility and both I suspect would object to the protectionism if both the EU and eec. Despite all the talk of free markets both shy away from it in practice but pretend they don't.
Never actually read all of bentham, found his style of writing heavy going.
posted by diuretic
Scottish nationalism is a terrible thing to witness. Some years ago I was driving in Scotland in a rental car I picked up in London and I committed a faux pas in the traffic on the approach to a bridge. Realising my mistake I nipped into a convenient space after first checking that I wasn't going to endanger myself or any other road user. Seconds later there was a knock on my side window. I wound down the window to be greeted by a fellow road user who informed me, "Mate, in this country we obey the road laws!" Since the car I was driving didn't have an Australian flag sticker or indeed a ring of corks dangling from it I can only assume that the registration indicated that the vehicle came from Sassenach country.
I hope the rest of your viit was friendlier. Sadly we have our share of pillocks.
-
Bill Sikes
- Posts: 5515
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:21 am
Scots and English
Chookie;469651 wrote: I can tell you that the only reason the post-Thatcher "United Kingdom" has not broken up is - without the Scottish economy, the British "state" is bankrupt.
Have you a good reference to the figures? I can't find 'em on a quick Google,
maybe I'm searching on the wrong words...
Have you a good reference to the figures? I can't find 'em on a quick Google,
maybe I'm searching on the wrong words...
Scots and English
Clancy;470426 wrote: I think your post sums it up pretty much as how it is, gmc.
The only thing I'll add is regarding that part highlighted Re: English /Scottish MP's on implementation. There were a few links in here on that very topic some time ago....It might even have been, You that posted them. I had at look at both links, if I remember right, one was a forum site the other, non forum.
I could understand some of the parts of voting on policies with English/Scottish union, but I have to confess, some of it was "heid nippin' and I'd require an idiots guide/quick synopsis/songs-for-easy politics reading/guide to assist me.
Maybe this is why the question of, voting by MP's on policies, Re: Scotland /England tends to be glossed over? Maybe it's because the last time I looked at anything like that, it was twenty years ago.... around the time, Derek Hatton was driving around Liverpool 8 district in an Italian shiny suit with a fistful of envelopes.
.
TB's foundation hospitals were kicked out bt the scottish parliament but voted in in england thanks to scots labour MP's voting for policies that will not effect scotland. Same with education reforms. We have a seperate system so why are scots voting on changes to the english education system? we wouldn't tolerate it it the other way round.
posted by diuretic
On Adam Smith - yes, a colleague recently told me to read him instead of about him. He said I would be surprised. I shall do so.
You can read it on that I link i posted.
The only thing I'll add is regarding that part highlighted Re: English /Scottish MP's on implementation. There were a few links in here on that very topic some time ago....It might even have been, You that posted them. I had at look at both links, if I remember right, one was a forum site the other, non forum.
I could understand some of the parts of voting on policies with English/Scottish union, but I have to confess, some of it was "heid nippin' and I'd require an idiots guide/quick synopsis/songs-for-easy politics reading/guide to assist me.
Maybe this is why the question of, voting by MP's on policies, Re: Scotland /England tends to be glossed over? Maybe it's because the last time I looked at anything like that, it was twenty years ago.... around the time, Derek Hatton was driving around Liverpool 8 district in an Italian shiny suit with a fistful of envelopes.
.
TB's foundation hospitals were kicked out bt the scottish parliament but voted in in england thanks to scots labour MP's voting for policies that will not effect scotland. Same with education reforms. We have a seperate system so why are scots voting on changes to the english education system? we wouldn't tolerate it it the other way round.
posted by diuretic
On Adam Smith - yes, a colleague recently told me to read him instead of about him. He said I would be surprised. I shall do so.
You can read it on that I link i posted.
-
Richard Bell
- Posts: 1228
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 8:56 am
Scots and English
Originally Posted by lady cop
i prefer RUM, sodomy and the lash myself....god i love churchill
Diuretic;469911 wrote: What all three?? :wah:
Just kidding, I know what you mean, I just couldn't resist being a smartarse.
...and I'm sure it would smart , after all that !
i prefer RUM, sodomy and the lash myself....god i love churchill
Diuretic;469911 wrote: What all three?? :wah:
Just kidding, I know what you mean, I just couldn't resist being a smartarse.
...and I'm sure it would smart , after all that !
Scots and English
Bill Sikes;470072 wrote: Have you a good reference to the figures?
Sorry to take so long, but I mislaid the info. (There's quite a bit)
I list the ten most common questions or objections raised by brainwashed unionists in Scotland:
1. Everyone tells us that Scotland is too poor to stand on its own feet and we will always require an English subsidy.
Fact Scotland has 8.6% of the UK population yet raises 10.41% of all UK tax revenues. (Source Treasury red Book 2002) Go figure it out for yourself. Exactly who is subsidising who?
2. Scotland could not survive without the Barnet formula handout from England.
The Barnett Formula is nothing more than a device which gives Scotland some of its own pocket money out of Scotlands pay packet which is taken by England. In 2002, Scotland contributed £42.7Billions to the UK Exchequer and received £18.1 Billions doled back in return via Barnet. It would be a much better idea to keep the £42.7 Billions as an Independent Country.
3. North sea oil is running out fast and soon there will be nothing left......
According to Professor Alex Kemp, of Petroleum Economics at the University of Aberdeen. North Sea Oil and Gas production will still be present in 2050. There is as much known oil left yet to be extracted than has already been exploited
4. Britain is becoming a net importer of oil and natural gas.
False. Scotland is a net exporter of Oil and Gas. Fact: An independent Scotland with 17.5% of Europes Oil reserves will be a net exporter of oil and gas for at least 25 years more years. Properly invested the proceeds will make Scotland the second richest nation on earth for its size. There will be huge social and economic benefits for all Scotlands Citizens and public services.
5. Scotland is too poor and small to afford to defend itself.
Why not? Switzerland uses just 1% of its GDP to provide a modern efficient Army and Air force. Norway spends 1.9% and can defend itself adequately. The UK spends 2.32% of GDP on its armed forces (Including Trident) Scotland can afford 1.6% of its GDP and still have modern professional armed forces half the size of the present UK.
6. We have a huge balance of payments problem, Scotland cannot possibly hope to pay her way.
False. The UK as a whole has Balance of Payments deficit of £35 Billions per annum. Scotland however actually contributes a Surplus of £2.3Billions.
7. Scotland could not compete against the mighty economic muscle of England.
Untrue. Denmark has an economic superpower to her south (Germany) and she does very well indeed. Switzerland is surrounded by three great economic superpowers, France, Italy, and Germany, yet she is the most prosperous nation in Europe. Singapore is a tiny island of 4 million people right next door to Indonesia with a population if 201 Millions yet is the powerhouse driving the SE Asian economy. Scotland has more than enough expertise to compete and prosper.
8. Scotland is too far away from the centre of Europe to prosper.
Iceland with a population of only 400,000, is situated far to the north by the arctic circle yet has the third highest standard of living in Europe.
9. The City of London is too powerful a financial centre for Scotland to compete against.
Scotland is one of Europe’s top ten financial centres, supporting employment for in the region of 200,000 people. Financial Services accounts for 8% of Scotland’s GDP and generates more than £20 bn annually for the economy. Scotland is reckoned to be the 12th leading global financial centre.
10. Scotland does not have the financial expertise to run its own affairs.
Who says so. Its strange that the late British Empire relied on a preponderence of Scots to run their affairs. Scots bankers, economists and Accountants (reckoned to be the best in their fields) are to be found at all levels of Government. Therefore the expertise is there.
Actual figures (using Government figures) are as follows:-
For countless years, the British Unionist Parties have been telling the people of Scotland, that they are subsidized by the English Taxpayer and that Independence is the certain road to ruin. Just recently some senior members of the Labour party have repeated this statement. Mr Trevor Philips in his Election Manifesto for the Lord Mayorship of London called for this subsidy to stop and the money be given to London instead Even from February 1990 in the days of the handbag wielding Margaret Thatcher quote `We English, who are a marvellous people, are really very generous to Scotland.' She was not alone in this, Scotland is constantly being sniped at by ignorant Tories who accuse Scots of having an inordinent level of funding. London's Evening Standard Newspaper has labelled the Scots `subsidy junkies' on innumerable occasions.
For nearly 300 years Scots have endured a barrage of such rhetoric which has sapped our innate Vitality and optimism. However I am asking the question 'Is it True?' Do the English Taxpayers really subsidize the Scots?
Those of us old enough to remember Josef Goebbels, (Hitler's infamous propaganda chief), know the quote he made:'If you tell a big enough Lie, and keep on repeating it, in the end people will come to believe it.' The big lie of Nazism is still believed today by deluded people, still taken in by his lies. It would appear that no serious research into this Subsidy Claim has been done in the past, due in no minor part to the excessive cloud of Secrecy coming from the Civil Service Establishment. The Information was there, but had to be ferreted out of the Stationery Office and Office of National Statistics. Before much of the Government paperwork was put on the Internet, this would have taken a researcher at least a year to extract the figures.
Thanks to the Internet, and the digging done by Colin, Eric, Frank, Neil, Niniane, Peter and Ozzie, whose labours helped to provide many pieces of the Jigsaw, this task has become easier and I personally spent over 400 hours in research to finally put this huge jigsaw puzzle together. Accurate information up to and including the 5th April 1999 (The cut off date selected for this research) was used and only the Governments own figures are used to preserve accuracy. North Sea Oil revenues were difficult to track down as the UK Government regard these as special resources of the UK (Extra-Regio Territories) and not Scottish, even though the Oilfields are in Scottish waters, are policed by Scottish Policemen and supported by an Infrastructure, at Scottish Ratepayers and Council Tax payers expense. Without financial support from Westminster. Following this convention, North Sea Revenues are EXCLUDED from the allocation of revenues to Scotland. When the Scottish Parliament was established, the UK Government annexed 3000 square miles of Scottish Waters rich in Oil, Gas and Fish and transferred them to English jurisdiction. In these cases, I have charged the Tax revenues to the Scottish Tax account as I have also charged the Corporation taxes paid by the Oil Companies based in London for their Scottish operations.
I am not satisfied that I have the true picture of North Sea Oil and Gas revenues as I feel some of these have been allocated to the Gross operating surplus and Crown Estates Income. In this event, they may well be understated for the Scottish Tax revenues, but I have found it impossible at present to penetrate the wall of secrecy that surrounds this heading. (Perhaps a SNP MP might ask a Question in Westminster?) The U.K. Government use the figure of 8.6% to express the percentage of Scottish Populace to the whole U.K. Population and I have used this percentage in Annex A where it was impossible to ascertain the correct percentage per Annex A. (Tables of Taxation Revenue and Percentages). It should be Noted that the least ambiguous sites were those of the Customs and Excise, followed by the Inland Revenue. The worst site being the Treasury.
GENERAL NOTES and OBSERVATIONS
It was interesting to note the disparity between Income tax receipts in Scotland and those of the S.E. of England. Scotland's Share of the Income tax and National Insurance Contributions is 7.4% which reflects the lower Incomes of Scots in general. Inland revenue figures strongly suggest that there are a higher proportion of Scots, whose earnings fall below the minimum Tax level and therefore pay no tax at all, than in the rest of the U.K. A pointer to the relative levels of poverty in Scotland.
Another anomaly is the number of people of pension age who continue to work, this would naturally be expected of Hill Farmers and Crofters whose incomes are desperately low, but it extends right across the board. In the U.K. the average number of Pensioners working is 6.6% of all pensioners. However in Scotland the ratio is 9.4%!.
Also Included in the figures are Council Tax and Business rates, as quite properly these are taxes to be taken into account. Council Tax at 9.3% is much higher than the population percentage of 8.6%. Business rates are even higher at 16.1%. In Fraserburgh one high Street shop has a rates bill of a similar sized shop in Regents Street in London! One would expect Rural areas to have higher charges than Urban areas, but this does not account for the difference, which may occur to the high costs of providing the infrastructure for the Oil Industry on the East and North East coasts, but is more likely in the Central belt, to be the result of Labour Councils Bad Management, inefficiencies and profligacy.
TAXATION TOUR
Before we reach the concluding part, it would be a good idea to acquaint oneself with the various taxes and so would you please turn to APPENDIX A at the back and I will take you on a quick tour.
We start first of all with our old friends from Customs and Excise and the most easily recognized Tax of all: Value Added Tax. Scotland's share being £4.957 Billion or 8.9% of the Total. One would expect it to be lower than this due to the lower levels of personal spending, or at the very most be 8.6% in line with the Population, but is in fact a distortion due to the fact that VAT is charged on Bottled Whisky and Fuels as soon as they leave the Distilleries or Refineries. And Scotland has a higher production ratio in these commodities.
Hydrocarbon Oils at £2.478 Billions or 19.9% is more properly not a Tax but an Excise duty. Excise Duty is payable when the Fuels leave the Refinery and the high percentage reflects the dominant position of the Grangemouth Refinery in the UK.
Tobacco Duty at £0.672 Billion or 8.1% is a little less than the national average, but reflects the reduced level of imports and manufactures in Scotland.
Alcohol including Whisky. This duty is quite high at £2.515 Billions or 39.3% This reflects the high output of Whisky distilling in Scotland.
Betting and Gaming, Air Passenger Duty, Insurance premium Tax, Landfill Tax and other Excise Duties are lumped together. It has proved impossible to apportion them by actual revenue raised in Scotland, so the Population percentage of 8.6% has been applied.
Our old nemesis Hector the Inspector holds out the Inland Revenue collection plate and takes £6.712 Billions from our hip pockets or 7.4% of all UK Income Taxes. As mentioned earlier, this is an indicator of the relative Wealth of Scotland compared to the UK as a whole. If we take the Treasury Population figure of 8.6% as being accurate, then this would indicate that wages and Salaries are some 16% lower in Scotland than they are in England.
Non North Sea Corporation Taxes follow on at £2,739 Billion pounds or 9.1% of the UK Total. This is higher due to the relative profitability of Scottish Companies and firms and is especially true of Banking, Finance and Insurance.
North Sea Companies Corporation Taxes are next at £3.301 Billions or 97.1% of the oil and Gas Sectors. The Corporation tax figures are those taken from Companies House Annual returns for Companies with registered interests in the Scottish Oilfields.
Petroleum Revenue Tax at £0.777 Billion also represents 97.1% as being the Scottish Sector. Due to the Secrecy and arcane treasury accounting policies, I was unable to find out what this item in the accounts stands for. It is possible that this is a surcharge made when prices go over a certain fixed limit.
North Sea Revenues at £2.525 Billions is also reckoned to be 97.1% Scottish Sector. Again it has proved virtually impossible to find the source of this heading.
Capital Gains Taxes, Inheritance Taxes and Stamp Duties are all lumped together at around 8.4% actual which is slightly below the average, reflecting lower house prices in Scotland and that Scots have fewer opportunities for amassing wealth.
Now we come to the other Taxes and Government receipts which will complete this tour, taxes such as Vehicle Excise Duty of £0.445 Billion Pounds reflects the Duty paid on a New Car and Road Fund Duty.This Duty is probably the main reason why Cars cost more to buy in Britain than anywhere else.
Oilfield Royalties of £0.388 Billion pounds or 97.1% which reflects the cost of annual royalties on existing Oilfields still being worked in the Scottish Sector.
Business Rates of £2.257 Billion Pounds or 16.1% are a regressive tax on profitable businesses. They are abnormally high in Scotland, because the local Authorities have never implemented the Standard Business Rate Laws brought in by the Last Conservative government. Too many Labour Councils regard the Business rates as a milk cow to be exploited ruthlessly to make good their shortcomings, and this has led to far too many companies shutting up shop and moving south or onto the Continent where Rates or Land taxes are much cheaper. Scotland has the unenviable reputation of having the highest Business rates in the western world.
Social Security Contributions of £4.159 Billion pounds or 7.4% tells the same sorry story of the disparity in earning power of Scots and English.
Council Taxes of £1.190 Billion pounds or 9.3% reflect the higher costs of Council services in Scotland and also the Water charges which are almost double the English norm.
Other Taxes and Royalties and Interest & Dividends of £1.Billion Pounds or 8.6% have been allocated pro rata to the Scottish population average.
Finally Gross operating Surplus and Crown estate rents and Income of £1.582 Billion or 8.6%. The population ratio was applied even though I suspect there is an Element of North Sea Oil contained in this figure. Treasury Secrecy foiled me and I have had to leave it as is.
This brings us to the totals and at this point the figures have a story to tell. The Total UK Taxation Revenues for the year to the 5th April 1999 were £356,800.000 Million pounds (356.8 Billions) let us assume that figure is 100% of the total Taxation. Scotland with 8.6% of the population contributed £41,346,600 Million Pounds (41.346 Billions) or 11.6% of the total UK Tax revenues. In return, under the Barnet Formula, Scotland received £12.2 Billion Pounds or 3.4%!
Far from England subsidizing Scotland, the reverse is true. Scots are subsidizing the South East of England, and in particular London Which received £89.7 Billion pounds of Government expenditure or 25% and this does not include health, Education or Defence. No wonder the Treasury wishes to keep it quiet! This has been going on for years.
In Conclusion. There is no reason at all why Scotland could not go it alone as an independent nation just as Norway has done. We can give our citizens a higher quality of life whilst investing part of the Oil revenues into an Oil Fund for future generations to come. Our pensioners can have pensions on which they can live in Dignity without poverty. Schools that can invest in new buildings and teachers. A Health Service, free to all which does not ration healthcare by postcode or age. Housing Associations that can build the type of houses people want to live in, not Labours Stalinist monobloc concrete deserts. Crofters and hill farmers can receive aid which stops the depopulation of our rural areas. Fishermen can rely on properly funded Fish conservation measures which will preserve stocks for their sons to fish in the future, protected by a small but efficient Navy, Army and Air Force. Businessmen can look forward to a vibrant economy with lower rates and small taxes and in turn can increase the wealth of the nation as Adam Smith envisaged. Ladies and Gentlemen of Scotland, the Future lies in your hands. The BIG LIE is revealed, do YOU still believe it?
APPENDIX A
UK Treasury Taxation Figures 1999
UK Whole Percent Scotland Percent
Description of Taxes £ Millions % £ Millions %
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Value Added Taxation £ 55,700,000 100 £ 4,957,300 8.9%
Hydrocarbon Oils £ 22,500,000 100 £ 4,477,500 19.9%
Tobacco £ 8,300,000 100 £ 672,300 8.1%
Alcohol Inc Whisky £ 6,400,000 100 £ 2,515,200 39.3%
Betting & Gaming £ 1,500,000 100 £ 129,000 8.6%
Air Passenger Duty £ 900,000 100 £ 77,400 8.6%
Insurance Premium £ 1,400,000 100 £ 120,400 8.6%
Landfill Tax £ 400,000 100 £ 34,400 8.6%
Other Excise duties £ 2,100,000 100 £ 180,600 8.6%
TOTAL Customs/Excise £ 99,200,000 100 £13,164,100 13.3%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Income Taxes Net of
Tax Credits £ 90,700,000 100 £ 6,711,800 7.4%
Corporation Taxes
Non-North Sea £ 30,100,000 100 £ 2,739,100 9.1%
Corporation Taxes
North Sea Scotland £ 3,400,000 100 £ 3,301,400 97.1%
Sorry to take so long, but I mislaid the info. (There's quite a bit)
I list the ten most common questions or objections raised by brainwashed unionists in Scotland:
1. Everyone tells us that Scotland is too poor to stand on its own feet and we will always require an English subsidy.
Fact Scotland has 8.6% of the UK population yet raises 10.41% of all UK tax revenues. (Source Treasury red Book 2002) Go figure it out for yourself. Exactly who is subsidising who?
2. Scotland could not survive without the Barnet formula handout from England.
The Barnett Formula is nothing more than a device which gives Scotland some of its own pocket money out of Scotlands pay packet which is taken by England. In 2002, Scotland contributed £42.7Billions to the UK Exchequer and received £18.1 Billions doled back in return via Barnet. It would be a much better idea to keep the £42.7 Billions as an Independent Country.
3. North sea oil is running out fast and soon there will be nothing left......
According to Professor Alex Kemp, of Petroleum Economics at the University of Aberdeen. North Sea Oil and Gas production will still be present in 2050. There is as much known oil left yet to be extracted than has already been exploited
4. Britain is becoming a net importer of oil and natural gas.
False. Scotland is a net exporter of Oil and Gas. Fact: An independent Scotland with 17.5% of Europes Oil reserves will be a net exporter of oil and gas for at least 25 years more years. Properly invested the proceeds will make Scotland the second richest nation on earth for its size. There will be huge social and economic benefits for all Scotlands Citizens and public services.
5. Scotland is too poor and small to afford to defend itself.
Why not? Switzerland uses just 1% of its GDP to provide a modern efficient Army and Air force. Norway spends 1.9% and can defend itself adequately. The UK spends 2.32% of GDP on its armed forces (Including Trident) Scotland can afford 1.6% of its GDP and still have modern professional armed forces half the size of the present UK.
6. We have a huge balance of payments problem, Scotland cannot possibly hope to pay her way.
False. The UK as a whole has Balance of Payments deficit of £35 Billions per annum. Scotland however actually contributes a Surplus of £2.3Billions.
7. Scotland could not compete against the mighty economic muscle of England.
Untrue. Denmark has an economic superpower to her south (Germany) and she does very well indeed. Switzerland is surrounded by three great economic superpowers, France, Italy, and Germany, yet she is the most prosperous nation in Europe. Singapore is a tiny island of 4 million people right next door to Indonesia with a population if 201 Millions yet is the powerhouse driving the SE Asian economy. Scotland has more than enough expertise to compete and prosper.
8. Scotland is too far away from the centre of Europe to prosper.
Iceland with a population of only 400,000, is situated far to the north by the arctic circle yet has the third highest standard of living in Europe.
9. The City of London is too powerful a financial centre for Scotland to compete against.
Scotland is one of Europe’s top ten financial centres, supporting employment for in the region of 200,000 people. Financial Services accounts for 8% of Scotland’s GDP and generates more than £20 bn annually for the economy. Scotland is reckoned to be the 12th leading global financial centre.
10. Scotland does not have the financial expertise to run its own affairs.
Who says so. Its strange that the late British Empire relied on a preponderence of Scots to run their affairs. Scots bankers, economists and Accountants (reckoned to be the best in their fields) are to be found at all levels of Government. Therefore the expertise is there.
Actual figures (using Government figures) are as follows:-
For countless years, the British Unionist Parties have been telling the people of Scotland, that they are subsidized by the English Taxpayer and that Independence is the certain road to ruin. Just recently some senior members of the Labour party have repeated this statement. Mr Trevor Philips in his Election Manifesto for the Lord Mayorship of London called for this subsidy to stop and the money be given to London instead Even from February 1990 in the days of the handbag wielding Margaret Thatcher quote `We English, who are a marvellous people, are really very generous to Scotland.' She was not alone in this, Scotland is constantly being sniped at by ignorant Tories who accuse Scots of having an inordinent level of funding. London's Evening Standard Newspaper has labelled the Scots `subsidy junkies' on innumerable occasions.
For nearly 300 years Scots have endured a barrage of such rhetoric which has sapped our innate Vitality and optimism. However I am asking the question 'Is it True?' Do the English Taxpayers really subsidize the Scots?
Those of us old enough to remember Josef Goebbels, (Hitler's infamous propaganda chief), know the quote he made:'If you tell a big enough Lie, and keep on repeating it, in the end people will come to believe it.' The big lie of Nazism is still believed today by deluded people, still taken in by his lies. It would appear that no serious research into this Subsidy Claim has been done in the past, due in no minor part to the excessive cloud of Secrecy coming from the Civil Service Establishment. The Information was there, but had to be ferreted out of the Stationery Office and Office of National Statistics. Before much of the Government paperwork was put on the Internet, this would have taken a researcher at least a year to extract the figures.
Thanks to the Internet, and the digging done by Colin, Eric, Frank, Neil, Niniane, Peter and Ozzie, whose labours helped to provide many pieces of the Jigsaw, this task has become easier and I personally spent over 400 hours in research to finally put this huge jigsaw puzzle together. Accurate information up to and including the 5th April 1999 (The cut off date selected for this research) was used and only the Governments own figures are used to preserve accuracy. North Sea Oil revenues were difficult to track down as the UK Government regard these as special resources of the UK (Extra-Regio Territories) and not Scottish, even though the Oilfields are in Scottish waters, are policed by Scottish Policemen and supported by an Infrastructure, at Scottish Ratepayers and Council Tax payers expense. Without financial support from Westminster. Following this convention, North Sea Revenues are EXCLUDED from the allocation of revenues to Scotland. When the Scottish Parliament was established, the UK Government annexed 3000 square miles of Scottish Waters rich in Oil, Gas and Fish and transferred them to English jurisdiction. In these cases, I have charged the Tax revenues to the Scottish Tax account as I have also charged the Corporation taxes paid by the Oil Companies based in London for their Scottish operations.
I am not satisfied that I have the true picture of North Sea Oil and Gas revenues as I feel some of these have been allocated to the Gross operating surplus and Crown Estates Income. In this event, they may well be understated for the Scottish Tax revenues, but I have found it impossible at present to penetrate the wall of secrecy that surrounds this heading. (Perhaps a SNP MP might ask a Question in Westminster?) The U.K. Government use the figure of 8.6% to express the percentage of Scottish Populace to the whole U.K. Population and I have used this percentage in Annex A where it was impossible to ascertain the correct percentage per Annex A. (Tables of Taxation Revenue and Percentages). It should be Noted that the least ambiguous sites were those of the Customs and Excise, followed by the Inland Revenue. The worst site being the Treasury.
GENERAL NOTES and OBSERVATIONS
It was interesting to note the disparity between Income tax receipts in Scotland and those of the S.E. of England. Scotland's Share of the Income tax and National Insurance Contributions is 7.4% which reflects the lower Incomes of Scots in general. Inland revenue figures strongly suggest that there are a higher proportion of Scots, whose earnings fall below the minimum Tax level and therefore pay no tax at all, than in the rest of the U.K. A pointer to the relative levels of poverty in Scotland.
Another anomaly is the number of people of pension age who continue to work, this would naturally be expected of Hill Farmers and Crofters whose incomes are desperately low, but it extends right across the board. In the U.K. the average number of Pensioners working is 6.6% of all pensioners. However in Scotland the ratio is 9.4%!.
Also Included in the figures are Council Tax and Business rates, as quite properly these are taxes to be taken into account. Council Tax at 9.3% is much higher than the population percentage of 8.6%. Business rates are even higher at 16.1%. In Fraserburgh one high Street shop has a rates bill of a similar sized shop in Regents Street in London! One would expect Rural areas to have higher charges than Urban areas, but this does not account for the difference, which may occur to the high costs of providing the infrastructure for the Oil Industry on the East and North East coasts, but is more likely in the Central belt, to be the result of Labour Councils Bad Management, inefficiencies and profligacy.
TAXATION TOUR
Before we reach the concluding part, it would be a good idea to acquaint oneself with the various taxes and so would you please turn to APPENDIX A at the back and I will take you on a quick tour.
We start first of all with our old friends from Customs and Excise and the most easily recognized Tax of all: Value Added Tax. Scotland's share being £4.957 Billion or 8.9% of the Total. One would expect it to be lower than this due to the lower levels of personal spending, or at the very most be 8.6% in line with the Population, but is in fact a distortion due to the fact that VAT is charged on Bottled Whisky and Fuels as soon as they leave the Distilleries or Refineries. And Scotland has a higher production ratio in these commodities.
Hydrocarbon Oils at £2.478 Billions or 19.9% is more properly not a Tax but an Excise duty. Excise Duty is payable when the Fuels leave the Refinery and the high percentage reflects the dominant position of the Grangemouth Refinery in the UK.
Tobacco Duty at £0.672 Billion or 8.1% is a little less than the national average, but reflects the reduced level of imports and manufactures in Scotland.
Alcohol including Whisky. This duty is quite high at £2.515 Billions or 39.3% This reflects the high output of Whisky distilling in Scotland.
Betting and Gaming, Air Passenger Duty, Insurance premium Tax, Landfill Tax and other Excise Duties are lumped together. It has proved impossible to apportion them by actual revenue raised in Scotland, so the Population percentage of 8.6% has been applied.
Our old nemesis Hector the Inspector holds out the Inland Revenue collection plate and takes £6.712 Billions from our hip pockets or 7.4% of all UK Income Taxes. As mentioned earlier, this is an indicator of the relative Wealth of Scotland compared to the UK as a whole. If we take the Treasury Population figure of 8.6% as being accurate, then this would indicate that wages and Salaries are some 16% lower in Scotland than they are in England.
Non North Sea Corporation Taxes follow on at £2,739 Billion pounds or 9.1% of the UK Total. This is higher due to the relative profitability of Scottish Companies and firms and is especially true of Banking, Finance and Insurance.
North Sea Companies Corporation Taxes are next at £3.301 Billions or 97.1% of the oil and Gas Sectors. The Corporation tax figures are those taken from Companies House Annual returns for Companies with registered interests in the Scottish Oilfields.
Petroleum Revenue Tax at £0.777 Billion also represents 97.1% as being the Scottish Sector. Due to the Secrecy and arcane treasury accounting policies, I was unable to find out what this item in the accounts stands for. It is possible that this is a surcharge made when prices go over a certain fixed limit.
North Sea Revenues at £2.525 Billions is also reckoned to be 97.1% Scottish Sector. Again it has proved virtually impossible to find the source of this heading.
Capital Gains Taxes, Inheritance Taxes and Stamp Duties are all lumped together at around 8.4% actual which is slightly below the average, reflecting lower house prices in Scotland and that Scots have fewer opportunities for amassing wealth.
Now we come to the other Taxes and Government receipts which will complete this tour, taxes such as Vehicle Excise Duty of £0.445 Billion Pounds reflects the Duty paid on a New Car and Road Fund Duty.This Duty is probably the main reason why Cars cost more to buy in Britain than anywhere else.
Oilfield Royalties of £0.388 Billion pounds or 97.1% which reflects the cost of annual royalties on existing Oilfields still being worked in the Scottish Sector.
Business Rates of £2.257 Billion Pounds or 16.1% are a regressive tax on profitable businesses. They are abnormally high in Scotland, because the local Authorities have never implemented the Standard Business Rate Laws brought in by the Last Conservative government. Too many Labour Councils regard the Business rates as a milk cow to be exploited ruthlessly to make good their shortcomings, and this has led to far too many companies shutting up shop and moving south or onto the Continent where Rates or Land taxes are much cheaper. Scotland has the unenviable reputation of having the highest Business rates in the western world.
Social Security Contributions of £4.159 Billion pounds or 7.4% tells the same sorry story of the disparity in earning power of Scots and English.
Council Taxes of £1.190 Billion pounds or 9.3% reflect the higher costs of Council services in Scotland and also the Water charges which are almost double the English norm.
Other Taxes and Royalties and Interest & Dividends of £1.Billion Pounds or 8.6% have been allocated pro rata to the Scottish population average.
Finally Gross operating Surplus and Crown estate rents and Income of £1.582 Billion or 8.6%. The population ratio was applied even though I suspect there is an Element of North Sea Oil contained in this figure. Treasury Secrecy foiled me and I have had to leave it as is.
This brings us to the totals and at this point the figures have a story to tell. The Total UK Taxation Revenues for the year to the 5th April 1999 were £356,800.000 Million pounds (356.8 Billions) let us assume that figure is 100% of the total Taxation. Scotland with 8.6% of the population contributed £41,346,600 Million Pounds (41.346 Billions) or 11.6% of the total UK Tax revenues. In return, under the Barnet Formula, Scotland received £12.2 Billion Pounds or 3.4%!
Far from England subsidizing Scotland, the reverse is true. Scots are subsidizing the South East of England, and in particular London Which received £89.7 Billion pounds of Government expenditure or 25% and this does not include health, Education or Defence. No wonder the Treasury wishes to keep it quiet! This has been going on for years.
In Conclusion. There is no reason at all why Scotland could not go it alone as an independent nation just as Norway has done. We can give our citizens a higher quality of life whilst investing part of the Oil revenues into an Oil Fund for future generations to come. Our pensioners can have pensions on which they can live in Dignity without poverty. Schools that can invest in new buildings and teachers. A Health Service, free to all which does not ration healthcare by postcode or age. Housing Associations that can build the type of houses people want to live in, not Labours Stalinist monobloc concrete deserts. Crofters and hill farmers can receive aid which stops the depopulation of our rural areas. Fishermen can rely on properly funded Fish conservation measures which will preserve stocks for their sons to fish in the future, protected by a small but efficient Navy, Army and Air Force. Businessmen can look forward to a vibrant economy with lower rates and small taxes and in turn can increase the wealth of the nation as Adam Smith envisaged. Ladies and Gentlemen of Scotland, the Future lies in your hands. The BIG LIE is revealed, do YOU still believe it?
APPENDIX A
UK Treasury Taxation Figures 1999
UK Whole Percent Scotland Percent
Description of Taxes £ Millions % £ Millions %
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Value Added Taxation £ 55,700,000 100 £ 4,957,300 8.9%
Hydrocarbon Oils £ 22,500,000 100 £ 4,477,500 19.9%
Tobacco £ 8,300,000 100 £ 672,300 8.1%
Alcohol Inc Whisky £ 6,400,000 100 £ 2,515,200 39.3%
Betting & Gaming £ 1,500,000 100 £ 129,000 8.6%
Air Passenger Duty £ 900,000 100 £ 77,400 8.6%
Insurance Premium £ 1,400,000 100 £ 120,400 8.6%
Landfill Tax £ 400,000 100 £ 34,400 8.6%
Other Excise duties £ 2,100,000 100 £ 180,600 8.6%
TOTAL Customs/Excise £ 99,200,000 100 £13,164,100 13.3%
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Income Taxes Net of
Tax Credits £ 90,700,000 100 £ 6,711,800 7.4%
Corporation Taxes
Non-North Sea £ 30,100,000 100 £ 2,739,100 9.1%
Corporation Taxes
North Sea Scotland £ 3,400,000 100 £ 3,301,400 97.1%
An ye harm none, do what ye will....