Israeli Apartheid

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:41 am

koan wrote: The words "islamofascism" and "islamofascist" have been discussed to exhaustion on this forum elsewhere. Israel justifies its own crimes by redirecting attention to the crimes of its opponents. Asking for them to stop crimes of aggression is not asking them to be perfect. It is asking them to maintain international standards instead of becoming the terrorists they despise. I also expect Israel to accept the role they play in creating the terrorists they are fighting.

So what, they're still accurate and very applicable in this case. As for the rest of your response that's human nature and the arabs do it as well.

What international standards are you referring to?

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:46 am

William Ess wrote: I don't think the US is an especially good example to use as a yardstick. It is probably the most totalitarian country this side of the Balkans. I like America and most of the Americans I have come across - I am a regular visitor - but their institutions are just asking for an uprising.

The most objectionable thing about racism is the hypocracy that goes hand in glove Most of us are 'racist' to some degree and it is only human to be so. There is a (theoretical) list of people I would prefer my daughter not to marry andI suppose that list marks me out as a racist. I hope, at any rate, I can be labelled as an honest one.

In the case of Israel, we have a state that is shouting its mulricultural credentials whilst practising the opposite. It is clear from what we have seen that a Gentile does not have equal treatment - but Israel should be honest enough to say so.

Huh? What in the world are you talking about? Which institutions are asking for an uprising? You must wear a bag over your head when you visit here.

Again you are simply picking on Israel for having a population of human beings some of whom are prejediced. All countries with any kind of ethnic or cultral diveristy have the same problems, not many are doing any better than Israel in dealing with them. Your inaccurate polemics do not divert our attention William Ess.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:51 am

William Ess wrote: [QUOTE=koan]Israel justifies its own crimes by redirecting attention to the crimes of its opponents.

QUOTE]

This is a very good point and shows the banality of 'eye for an eye' policies. My view is that Israel is on a losing wicket.

It is essentially an Arab country which the Jewish minority populated by encouraging the notion that Israel was the biblical homeland of their race and that Jews worldwide should settle there.

Power was taken quite arbitrarily and the fact that the nomadic Palestinian Arabs showed no signs of wanting an administration did not justify the theft.

Britain should have kept to its original scheme of retaining Palestine for the Arabs.

The result is that the oil and water of Jew and Arab has created a foment of almost continuous war. I cannot see the matter being resolved until, somehow, Israel is returned to the Palestinians.

Jewish minority? I checked three sites and averaged what each said about the % of the poulation is Jewish. That average is 76%.

William Ess · Post by **William Ess** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:16 am

anastrophe wrote: [quote=William Ess]

unadulterated nonsense, with no factual basis, no basis in reality, and purely a construct of a vivid imagination.

.

Can you join the Communist Party in America without penalty. Can you buy Cuban cigars? Is it not true that to go on Holiday in Cuba is a Federal offence?

What about the poor fellow who was thrown out of office for using the word 'niggardly'. As for the American police..........................

It is not a criticism of America so much as a comment on the power that the institutions have taken to themselves.

William Ess · Post by **William Ess** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:17 am

zinkyusa wrote: [QUOTE=William Ess]

Jewish minority? I checked three sites and averaged what each said about the % of the poulation is Jewish. That average is 76%.

I think the size of the relatively small prewar Jewish minority has already been settled in this debate.

William Ess · Post by **William Ess** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:19 am

zinkyusa wrote: Which institutions are asking for an uprising? D

Try reading it in the passive rather than the active

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:26 am

William Ess wrote: [quote=anastrophe]

Can you join the Communist Party in America without penalty.
yes.

Can you buy Cuban cigars? Is it not true that to go on Holiday in Cuba is a Federal offence?

true. what this has to do with the united states being totalitarian, rather than cuba being sanctioned for being totalitarian escapes me. either way, it's a particularly weak argument in favor of the US being totalitarian.

What about the poor fellow who was thrown out of office for using the word 'niggardly'.

leftist political correctness gone mad. considering that it was a government official thrown out of office due to PUBLIC approbation further suggests that it's hardly a government that's in control of the public, no?

As for the American police..........................
um, yeah. how about your fellows who slaughtered a foreign national because he looked like a terrorist?

It is not a criticism of America so much as a comment on the power that the institutions have taken to themselves.

we have a free press. this counters a basic precept of totalitarianism.

we have a plural political system, with open elections. this counters a basic precept of totalitarianism.

we have extremely wide, diverse, public political discourse, with effectively no supression. even those who openly call for the destruction of our political system are protected. just watch the idiots rioting when the WTO holds their summit in the US.

again, if you wish to water down the meaning of a term sufficiently that it can be applied to a bowl of ice cream, be my guest. your arguments however will suffer. the united states is no more totalitarian than your own country.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:29 am

William Ess wrote: [QUOTE=zinkyusa]

I think the size of the relatively small prewar Jewish minority has already been settled in this debate.

Living in the past then..:rolleyes:

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:30 am

William Ess wrote: [quote=zinkyusa]

I think the size of the relatively small prewar Jewish minority has already been settled in this debate.

which war? world war I or world war II? by the time israel declared itself an independent nation (and the war that followed immediately), the jews were in the majority.

let's not forget, the pogroms that began in the mid 1800's spurred the emigration to palestine. the creation of israel neatly solved europe's "problem" of the undesireable jews, as well as russia's "problem" with the undesireable jews, and the arab nations "problem" with the undesireable jews. once the jews had been neatly expelled from all these areas, let's get rid of israel too! it's all too convenient, and it falls right in line with nasrallah's suggestion that having them all in one place it makes it easier for the islamist fascists to kill them.

so, again, you call for the dissolution of israel. where should they go? would you take them in? offer britain as a safe haven for them? if not, why not?

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:32 am

William Ess wrote: [QUOTE=anastrophe]

Can you join the Communist Party in America without penalty. Can you buy Cuban cigars? Is it not true that to go on Holiday in Cuba is a Federal offence?

What about the poor fellow who was thrown out of office for using the word 'niggardly'. As for the American police..........................

It is not a criticism of America so much as a comment on the power that the institutions have taken to themselves.

oh my these are horrible transgressions, America the tyrannical.

Let's see, can you leave the Muslim religion (alive)? What happens if you chew gum on the street in Indonesia?

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:35 am

William Ess wrote: Try reading it in the passive rather than the active

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about William?

William Ess · Post by **William Ess** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:00 am

anastrophe wrote: [quote=William Ess]

the united states is no more totalitarian than your own country.

I don't think we are far behind America but much as I would like to respond, I think we had better open a new thread on the subject.

William Ess · Post by **William Ess** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:01 am

zinkyusa wrote: Sorry, but I have no idea what you are talking about William?

It's the difference between asking for something and asking for something.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:13 am

William Ess wrote: [quote=anastrophe]

I don't think we are far behind America but much as I would like to respond, I think we had better open a new thread on the subject.

okay, let's return to the matter of israel. i wrote:

you call for the dissolution of israel. where should they go? would you take them in? offer britain as a safe haven for them? if not, why not?

i would add, it was britain specifically that generated the policy of creating a nation of israel, as you know. so if that was the doing of britain, then should not the undoing be britain's 'problem' as well?

William Ess · Post by **William Ess** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:24 am

[QUOTE=anastrophe][quote=William Ess]

would you take them in? offer britain as a safe haven for them? if not, why not?

QUOTE]

Good God, no. We have enough foreigners here as it is. Send them to Germany. They caused the problem in the first place by trying to exterminate them.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:42 am

William Ess wrote: [quote=anastrophe][quote=William Ess]

would you take them in? offer britain as a safe haven for them? if not, why not?

Good God, no. We have enough foreigners here as it is. Send them to Germany. They caused the problem in the first place by trying to exterminate them.

most of the jews killed were from poland. and the holocaust was merely the most mechanized slaughter of the jews - as i mentioned, there had been - and still are - pogrom against the jews throughout europe.

again, palestine was under british control. it was british policy to create the jewish homeland. if israel is to be dissolved, why not england? there's quite a large muslim population in england - your nation seems to have no compunctions about accepting muslims, why not accept jews as well, particularly if their nation is to be dismantled?

at minimum, great britain should absorb some proportion of the population. israel's population is about six million. so, divide them between england, the US, france, germany, that's 1.5 million to each. the population of england is just under 50 million, of which about 43 million are white british. there's about 2.4 million classified as asian, largely indian, pakistani and bangladeshi.

no problem! britain's a magnanimous nation. share the responsibility. you wouldn't have a problem with one or two jewish families moving into your neighborhood, would you?

William Ess · Post by **William Ess** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:48 am

anastrophe wrote: [quote=William Ess]

no problem! britain's a magnanimous nation. share the responsibility. you wouldn't have a problem with one or two jewish families moving into your neighborhood, would you?

Like to oblige, Old Boy, but a bit short on space. There must be an empty corner of Arizona where you can dump them. There's a good chap.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:57 am

William Ess wrote: [quote=anastrophe]

Like to oblige, Old Boy, but a bit short on space. There must be an empty corner of Arizona where you can dump them. There's a good chap.

seems you are happy to have the jews be anyone's responsibility other than your own. which is precisely the issue that's been at work for a thousand years or so. get the jews out of europe. get the jews out of the arab nations. create a nation for them to live in. then declare the nation illegal, and make them 'go away'. preferrably as far away from 'you' as possible (you in the plural).

again, balfour declaration. britain started these wheels in motion. britain should share responsibility. besides 'space', which is a dodge, however unartful, what rational justification have you for britain not sharing in the responsibility to take in the jews who will be displaced when you dissolve their nation?

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:58 am

William Ess wrote: [quote=anastrophe]

Like to oblige, Old Boy, but a bit short on space. There must be an empty corner of Arizona where you can dump them. There's a good chap.

your use of the term 'dump them' is telling to me. they are refuse. to be dumped.

thus it's been through history.

William Ess · Post by **William Ess** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:11 pm

anastrophe wrote: [quote=William Ess]

again, balfour declaration. britain started these wheels in motion. britain should share responsibility. besides 'space', which is a dodge, however unartful, what rational justification have you for britain not sharing in the responsibility to take in the jews who will be displaced when you dissolve their nation?

The Balfour declarion has a coda which the Israeli's are very careful to ignore. It said that there seemed to be no reason why Palestine should not become a Jewish homeland provided the Arabs did not disagree,

The Jews emigrating to Palestine did so against our blockade and we were powerless against world opinion. Had we seen the way things were going to go, we might have acted a little more resolutely. Of course we should have given the place to the Arabs, lock, stock and barrel.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:47 pm

William Ess wrote: [quote=anastrophe]

The Balfour declarion has a coda which the Israeli's are very careful to ignore. It said that there seemed to be no reason why Palestine should not become a Jewish homeland provided the Arabs did not disagree,

The Jews emigrating to Palestine did so against our blockade and we were powerless against world opinion. Had we seen the way things were going to go, we might have acted a little more resolutely. Of course we should have given the place to the Arabs, lock, stock and barrel.

that's fine. you're suggesting israel is illegal and should be dissolved, which would map to giving the land to the arabs. you suggest the jews should be 'dumped' in arizona. never mind that the US has the largest jewish population outside of israel - approximately the same number as israel's current population. we've "done our part". as it is, the jews are integrated into our nation, no 'juden' tag on their driver's licenses, and aside from the occasion nutjob who decides to spray paint a swastika on a synagogue, there's extremely little cultural intolerance of them. contrast this with the intolerance throughout europe, which was part and parcel with the emigration from same. europe had its 'problem' with the jews very tidily handled by making things so hostile and unpleasant that they left for palestine. now again, you suggest that their last safe haven be dissolved - but will have nothing to do with taking on the people your desired path will displace.

William Ess · Post by **William Ess** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:58 pm

anastrophe wrote: [quote=William Ess]

that's fine. you're suggesting israel is illegal and should be dissolved, which would map to giving the land to the arabs. you suggest the jews should be 'dumped' in arizona. never mind that the US has the largest jewish population outside of israel - approximately the same number as israel's current population. we've "done our part". as it is, the jews are integrated into our nation, no 'juden' tag on their driver's licenses, and aside from the occasion nutjob who decides to spray paint a swastika on a synagogue, there's extremely little cultural intolerance of them. contrast this with the intolerance throughout europe, which was part and parcel with the emigration from same. europe had its 'problem' with the jews very tidily handled by making things so hostile and unpleasant that they left for palestine. now again, you suggest that their last safe haven be dissolved - but will have nothing to do with taking on the people your desired path will displace.

We can't take any more foreigners - those that are here are causing problems enough.

The return of Palestine to the Arabs does not necessarily mean flooding the rest of the world with Jews. Were Palestine to be jointly adminstered by Egypt, Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon with an Arab government, it does not follow that the Jewish population would have to fly the country. They could stay where they are and take their share in the running of the province.

The main point is that the pernicious presence of the Israeli government would be removed.

That, at least, isn a starting point for a new direction in the debate.

BTW. Europe did not persecute the Jews. The Germans and French did. You might remember that several of our Prime Ministers - including one of the most distinguished - was a Jew.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:04 pm

William Ess wrote: [quote=anastrophe]

We can't take any more foreigners - those that are here are causing problems enough.

The return of Palestine to the Arabs does not necessarily mean flooding the rest of the world with Jews. Were Palestine to be jointly adminstered by Egypt, Jordan, Syria and the Lebanon with an Arab government, it does not follow that the Jewish population would have to fly the country. They could stay were they are and take their share in the running of the province.

The main point is that the pernicious presence of the Israeli government would be removed.

so we now move into the realm of pure phantasy. okay. considering that large populations in the neighboring countries have a formal policy that the jews are to be eliminated, i hardly think the suggestion that they'd stay falls anywhere within a mile of Reality.

Europe did not persecute the Jews. The Germans and French did. You might remember that several of our Prime Ministers - including one of the most distinguished - was a Jew.
europe as a homogenous entity didn't persecute the jews, but the jews have been persecuted throughout much of europe, the middle east, and russia, for eons. britain tends to be an exception, which is nice.

William Ess · Post by **William Ess** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:35 pm

anastrophe wrote: [quote=William Ess]

so we now move into the realm of pure phantasy. okay. considering that large populations in the neighboring countries have a formal policy that the jews are to be eliminated, i hardly think the suggestion that they'd stay falls anywhere within a mile of Reality.

europe as a homogenous entity didn't persecute the jews, but the jews have been persecuted throughout much of europe, the middle east, and russia, for eons. britain tends to be an exception, which is nice.

Of course it is fantasy (sic), the whole debate is but since we were beginning to go round in circles, I thought a new direction might be interesting.

I was not aware that any of the neighbouring countries had a policy of eliminating individual Jews however bleakly they regard the Israeli government.

It is a rich irony but my father was decorated in 1947 for successfully protecting the Jewish staff of an oil refinery in Haifa from a rather vicious (and bloody) attack by a rag-bag army of Arabs.

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:51 am

small request that we stop quoting each other until we get the quotation tags properly relocated. sheesh.

I went back through this thread and noticed something, I have provided 26 sources and citations. Bronwen and anastrophe, though making many assertions, have provided 2 each. Bryn and William 1 each. As Bryn does not contradict the information in the 26 articles and citations provided there is not much issue to be taken. William, you make interesting statements but you should try to back them up with links or citations. anastrophe and Bronwen, your attempts to hold your own statements as contradictory evidence falls flat; put up or shut up.

Both anastrophe and Bronwen have challenged facts presented and demanded citations whilst sitting back with their feet in their mouths. The facts remain. I have 26 cited bits of fact. I've heard lots of sputtering but nothing that challenges the title of this thread.

eta: sorry, zinky got 1 source in somewhere too and though it didn't hold much ground it was a valiant attempt.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:05 am

koan wrote: small request that we stop quoting each other until we get the quotation tags properly relocated. sheesh.

I went back through this thread and noticed something, I have provided 26 sources and citations. Bronwen and anastrophe, though making many assertions, have provided 2 each. Bryn and William 1 each. As Bryn does not contradict the information in the 26 articles and citations provided there is not much issue to be taken. William, you make interesting statements but you should try to back them up with links or citations. anastrophe and Bronwen, your attempts to hold your own statements as contradictory evidence falls flat; put up or shut up.

Both anastrophe and Bronwen have challenged facts presented and demanded citations whilst sitting back with their feet in their mouths. The facts remain. I have 26 cited bits of fact. I've heard lots of sputtering but nothing that challenges the title of this thread.

eta: sorry, zinky got 1 source in somewhere too and though it didn't hold much ground it was a valiant attempt.

Oh well, I tried Koan:D

William Ess · Post by **William Ess** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:05 am

By the time we'd filled twenty-odd pages, I'd forgotten what the original question was..........................

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:32 am

http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/peac ... docid=2024 is about to be mentioned in the New York Times, in which case it could even become an issue of prominence again.Israel has effectively stolen privately owned Palestinian lands for the purpose of constructing settlements and in violation Israel's own laws regarding activities in the West Bank. Nearly 40 percent of the total land area on which the settlements sit is, according to official data of the Israeli Civil Administration (the government agency in charge of the settlements), privately owned by Palestinians. The settlement enterprise has undermined not only the collective property rights of the Palestinians as a people, but also the private property rights of individual Palestinian landowners.If it does, I'll post the URL to the story.

While Peace Now is an Israeli movement, working primarily amongst the Israeli public, it also has been engaged over the years in dialogue and joint activities with Palestinians in the occupied territories. The largest such joint activity was a massive Hands Around Jerusalem in 1989 in which some 15,000 Israelis and 15,000 Palestinians called for peace.

A particularly important ongoing project of Peace Now is its Settlement Watch, which monitors – and protests, the building of settlements, including housing tenders, expropriation of lands, budget allocations, and the like, along with studying settlers attitudes regarding possible evacuation (and compensation) in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Known for their credibility and reliability, the data and maps produced in the framework of this project have raised public awareness of the terrible price Israel is paying for these obstacles to peace. Indeed one of the objectives of Peace Now is to convey the sense of the harm incurred to Israel not only by the economic and political aspects of continued occupation, but also the moral damage done to the values and fabric of Israeli society – in addition to the untold hardship incurred on another people, the Palestinians.

Post by **spot** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:57 am

There it is - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/21/world ... ref=slogin and it's the lead story on the front page, by the look of it. Good going by any standards.The figures, together with detailed maps of the land distribution in every Israeli settlement in the West Bank, were put together by the Settlement Watch Project of Peace Now, led by Dror Etkes and Hagit Ofran, and has a record of careful and accurate reporting on settlement growth.

The report does not include Jerusalem, which Israel has annexed and does not consider part of the West Bank, although much of the world regards East Jerusalem as occupied. Much of the world also considers Israeli settlements on occupied land to be illegal under international law. International law requires an occupying power to protect private property, and Israel has always asserted that it does not take land without legal justification.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:54 am

Miri Eisin, a spokesperson for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, said that Israeli officials would have to see the data and the maps and added that ownership is complicated and delicate.

I see it as rather straightforward and brutal.

danieeeel · Post by **danieeeel** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:32 am

you just have no idea.. :-3

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:35 am

danieeeel;480397 wrote: you just have no idea.. :-3

We have many ideas. I'm under the impression that you have first hand experiences. Will you share them with us?

danieeeel · Post by **danieeeel** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:44 am

Well I didn't read the all posts (very long) but I can answer of what I did read.

"Palestinians are not struggling for a "state" but for freedom, liberation and equality"

They are strungle for the land. period. for wipe out Israel from the map, take control on Jerusalem, and they are not afraid of saying that.

"In the last few years, and especially during the reign of the Labor Party, Israel showed that it was not even willing to return what it occupied in 1967"

this is so not true!

some of these these territories that have occupied since the war with Egypt , Suria and Jordan have been already returned to the arabs.

didn't Israel demolish the settlements in Gaza and gave the all Gaza to the palastains? they had control on Gaza, they had fredoom but it wasn't enough, otherwise, why would they continue the attack on Israel? throwing rockets over the border and kidnapping the Israeli soldier?

palastains should start build thier life, Israel want them to stay in Gaza and live their life peacefully but they always think about how to harm Israel!

and Israel is willing to evacuate more.

Israel PM Ehud Olmert explicit said that Israel is willing to evacute more settlements from the west bank and for the palastains to have a state and independence .

"stop the wall"

do you know the reason of making this wall?! do you know how much lives this wall have been already saved?!

this wall were built for one purpose - to stop the attacks and the suicide bombs in Israrel!

In 2002 there were 40(!) terror attacks indside Israel killed 230(!) people.

we saw sights like in this clip - youtube.com/watch?v=PkC_2NwyoWE

almost every week

Israel started to build the wall in 2002.

in 2001-2003 73 attacks occurred in Israel's cities. 293 people have been killed and 1950 wounded.

in 2004 19 people have been killed and 102 wounded from the attacks which made from the areas where the wall not yet built.

and from the areas where already have a wall not even one israeli has been killed!

but I guess you don't know these facts.. you probably just think it's like the wall in Berlin that made to separate two kinds of people who believe two differents things.

well. this is not the concept here. this wall is for security issues only!

"Israeli Committee Against House Demotions"

do you know which homes do you talk about?

the army has demolished the houses of Palestinian militants found responsible for anti-Israeli attacks, particularly suicide bombings.

This is the least Israel can do to stop these attacks. a terrorist who plan to bomb himself in Israel will thing again after he know that his family will have to look a ifferent home after he'll murder Israelis people.

Any way I didn't want to get into this but I thing you have the right to think what you want . too bad you mislead others though.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:04 am

danieeeel,

first of all, thank you.

your post was touching and I believe you.

I do not know what it is like to live in Israel. I also do not know what it is like to live in Palestine. As such I read the stories and evidence with both sides of the wall in mind.

If you don't wish to get into the details of what is happening and why then I respect that and won't volley a load of facts, clippings, or passages from authors at you. I'm glad you wrote about how you see this war because it is important that no one see all Israelis as aggressive brutes. Just as all Palestinians are not supporters of terrorism.

It's the innocent people that suffer the fate of choices made by politicians.

danieeeel · Post by **danieeeel** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:39 am

Scrat;480528 wrote: Who's misleading whom? Did you ever hear the saying "the first casualty of war is truth" before?

If Zionists expect me to believe that they have a legitimate right to hold what they do in Israel they are stupid to expect me to accept how those lands were gained.

Zionists insult my intelligence. Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity.

Every rocket that comes over that wall is a rocket that Zionists have earned for the Jewish people with their tacit approval of/or acceptance by apathetic herd of Israeli citizens.

If Israel cannot find peace with its neighbors she should surrender the state to the UN and sue for peace or something

How do you think those land were gainted?

I wander if you're realy know or you just saying what you heard or what you think you heard..

How much do you know about the history of Palastine? the British mandate, the partition plan, the circumstances and the consequences

of the war of liberation in 1948 and the six day War in 1967?

you're saying "Every rocket that comes over that wall is a rocket that Zionists have earned "

but the rockets come from Gaza and there is no wall in Gaza.

And I don't know what do you mean in your last sentence "surrender the state to the UN and sue for peace "

danieeeel · Post by **danieeeel** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:53 am

koan;480480 wrote: danieeeel,

first of all, thank you.

your post was touching and I believe you.

I do not know what it is like to live in Israel. I also do not know what it is like to live in Palestine. As such I read the stories and evidence with both sides of the wall in mind.

If you don't wish to get into the details of what is happening and why then I respect that and won't volley a load of facts, clippings, or passages from authors at you. I'm glad you wrote about how you see this war because it is important that no one see all Israelis as aggressive brutes. Just as all Palestinians are not supporters of terrorism.

It's the innocent people that suffer the fate of choices made by politicians.

Well, thank you..

I feel the same way. I mean, because I live here I don't know what people all over the world think about Israel.

I just know that the global news love to talk about us.

I think your lasl sentence is absolutely right.

It's the innocent people that suffer the fate of choices made by politicians.

danieeeel · Post by **danieeeel** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:44 pm

Scrat;480660 wrote: Intimidation and force of arms, murder, terrorism, ethnic cleansing ect. The usual stuff. Don't forget the American taxpayers like me.

All I need too. More perhaps than you, my memory is not selective.

Call it "no mans land" then. Maybe the tanks on the hills are the wall?

The Zionists of Israel have failed to find peace, so has the Arab powers. It's been almost 60 years and nothing but war and killing. Surrender the state, the country of Israel and Palastine to a higher authority. Something like the UN. It seems you fools cannot, or do not, care to find peace so perhaps the civilized world should impose it on you.

Let's just say when kids are fighting over a toy, you take the toy away from them.

Listen, if we continue this debate we can write tones of posts and not getting any where..

I don't know if you're a reporter or something otherwise how can you know more then someone who learned these stuff at school since he was 7 yeas old.

Any way, since you live in the US , i'm sure you don't get all the news every day of what is going on here.

you think we cannot, or do not, care to find peace. ok, so explain me that:

how do you do peace with someone who doesn't want to recognize you?

if you could find an answer to this question I promise you I will transfer it to Olmert personally..

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:30 pm

Now, Scrat.

Are you assuming that danieeeel is full of hate just because he lives in Israel?

That hardly seems fair.

danieeeel · Post by **danieeeel** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:45 pm

you're sitting over there and make an accusations that you don't know **** about them. do you know about our neighbors over the border? well take a look but I'm sure it won't bother you to blame Israel on everything!

blame Israel in the terrors

blame Israel for not doing peace with terrorists

blame Israel in the war with Lebanon

blame Israel in ethnic cleansing

blame Israel in murders

blame Israel in the rockets

blame Israel in the holocaust too

blame Israel in the atom bomb over Hiroshima , isn't that Israel fault?

BLAME ISRAEL FOR DEFENCE HERSELF!

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:00 pm

there are videos from both sides of the wall, danieeeel

like you said, the details aren't what is going to resolve this war.

It's entirely possible that you have lost a family member in what is just a distant war to us. But I also think of the Palestinians who lose their family members as well.

The current news looks at one Israeli soldier being held in captivity and this thread, or others like it, talk about the thousands of Palestinians being held without charges. Look at the "deal" that Olmert is offering. Israel recreates its enemies daily. If Israel stops using terrorism itself they will get more sympathy from me.

The current news looks at the thousands of civilians Israel killed recently in comparison to the under one hundred Israeli citizens killed. If you become the enemy you lose. We all lose.

danieeeel · Post by **danieeeel** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:53 pm

koan;480845 wrote: there are videos from both sides of the wall, danieeeel

like you said, the details aren't what is going to resolve this war.

It's entirely possible that you have lost a family member in what is just a distant war to us. But I also think of the Palestinians who lose their family members as well.

The current news looks at one Israeli soldier being held in captivity and this thread, or others like it, talk about the thousands of Palestinians being held without charges. Look at the "deal" that Olmert is offering. Israel recreates its enemies daily. If Israel stops using terrorism itself they will get more sympathy from me.

The current news looks at the thousands of civilians Israel killed recently in comparison to the under one hundred Israeli citizens killed. If you become the enemy you lose. We all lose.

you live in England now right? let say South Irland don't have planes or tanks and they will throw rockets over the England teritories and kill England citizens over the past 6 years, or sending suicides bombers to England citizen over the past 6 years.. what would England do?

I can tell you this.. the Israelis feel that what Israel do is not enough. people in Sderot, the city that injure most from the rockets urge the goverement to stop these rockets in any cost! and that's why I think the in the next election in Israel a leader from right wing will win.

and you know what? we should'nt let any one to tell us how to defence our self and we will as long as we have the ability to do that!

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:01 pm

danieeeel;480885 wrote: you live in England now right? let say South Irland don't have planes or tanks and they will throw rockets over the England teritories and kill England citizens over the past 6 years, or sending suicides bombers to England citizen over the past 6 years.. what would England do?

I can tell you this.. the Israelis feel that what Israel do is not enough. people in Sderot, the city that injure most from the rockets urge the goverement to stop these rockets in any cost! and that's why I think the in the next election in Israel a leader from right wing will win.

and you know what? we should'nt let any one to tell us how to defence our self and we will as long as we have the ability to do that!

In your scenario, has England done anything prior to the rockets being sent over?

(I'd rather not get into who deserves what, just because there are far too many dead people at the moment)

You are right. The rest of the world only offers opinion. What Israel does is up to the people of Israel. Whether the rest of the world supports it or not is up to the rest of the world, individually.

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 11:46 pm

William Ess;382794 wrote: Having been alive longer than Israel has been in existence and having been able to follow most of the twists and turns of postwar Middle East events, I really have to wonder if Israel has a right to exist.

Is it not time to declare it a maverick state and sanction its dismemberment, returning its population to either their countries of ethnic origin or choice. The land mass might be apportioned to the surrounding states.

I suppose if the pro-Israel lobby in North America felt strongly enough about the proposal, they could always arrange for part of Utah or Arizona to become an independant Israeli settlement.

At least it would resolve the Middle East question.

WE

Yippers...................... The Sierra club would go for that one.... yah right!!!!!

U Go Willie.............. boy

In the Second World War, the Jewish community in the Land of Israel played its full part in the struggle of the nations championing freedom and peace against the Nazi forces of evil. Its war effort and the lives of its soldiers won it the right to be numbered among the founding peoples of the United Nations.

On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in the Land of Israel, and required the inhabitants themselves to take all measures necessary on their part to carry out the resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their own State is irrevocable.

This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their own State is irrevocable.

This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their own State is irrevocable.

This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their own State is irrevocable.

This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their own State is irrevocable.

danieeeel · Post by **danieeeel** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:36 am

Scrat;481235 wrote: Don't worry Dan I know what/who Hamas is. They are a militia, they are there to defend their country from yours and considering the arse waxing your over hyped IDF got this summer, they did a hell of a job.

You'll be thinking twice before you go after them again 'eh? :yh_rotfl

Like it or not the world is sick of the stupid, endless, sensless idoicy both you and the Arabs like to bestow on one another.

I'm willing to bert that in the next 20 years we may just just kick your collective butts right out of the civilized world.

Who in the hell wants people like you around?

Your country exists for several reasons, oil, money laundering and profiteering the slave trade and because your propaganda does such a good job of portraying Israel as victims of the Arabs.

Like it or not your facade is falling apart.

Have fun dodging those rockets.

I hope for you that you are Muslim or a kid because if you are either one of that so your are stupid arrogant and I can promise you that Israel will continue to exist for ever despite the fact that we are surrounded by enemies and this is what makes us so special and for people like you to hate us so I don't blame you, and don't concern about me. I don't need to dodge rockets.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:25 am

Specifically about the apartheid wall, danieeeel, ignoring for a moment any other ideas except for the wall, I really would like an explanation regarding its placement.

If I want to build a fence around my property, as many people do, I have to build it on my own property. I cannot remove my neighbours bushes and build it on their side in order to keep my own larger. If I agreed with the building of this wall, which I don't, I would still be convinced that Israel should build it on their own side of the property line.