In his last message¦Ayman al-Zawahri addressed both us ( the Americans) and Bush, and both the Republicans and Democrats¦and these are excerpts from this message¦what is your opinion?
Excerpts from the message of Ayman al-Zawahri:
I would like to talk to the American people , and to tell them: You did not realize the failure of the administration and you did not topple the Republicans candidates until the Mujahedeen defeated you, and you did not follow the principles of justice morals and rationality, the Mujahedeen still taking up their arms by the grace of Allah.
The equation of your safety is: Don't dream of security until we live it really in Palestine and all Islam's lands, and it is not the wrong equation given to you by Bush and cheating you when he says that we fight the terrorists in their countries for not targeting and hitting us in our country, on the contrary, if we were stroked in our countries we will not stop hitting you in your country by Allah willing and might.
And as our leader Sheikh Oussama Ben Laden –may Allah protect him- said to you: On the same way you bombard , you will be bombarded, and like you kill, you will be killed.
My message to the Democrats in America, I say to them, you should realize two facts:
-First: It is not you who won in the elections, neither the Republicans who lost, it is the Mujahedeen – vanguard of the Islamic nation in Afghanistan and Iraq- who were victorious, and the American forces with its allies who lost and were defeated.
Second:The Mujahedeen still –by the grace of Allah- in the battlefield , and their arms which made the Republicans defeated still taken up and legal, the Mujahedeen will not stop defeating you until you leave our lands , stop robbing our riches and stop supporting the rotten governors in our countries.
If you do not stop the stupid American policy in supporting Israel, occupying the Islam's lands and robbing the Muslims riches, then be awaited for the same fate.
You should realize that a new stage of the history has been started, the stage of Aabd al-Aziz Al Sood's progeny , al-Sharif Hussain's grandsons, al-Sadat ,Mubarak and Aarafat , this stage expired, and it started the stage of Khaled al-Islamboli, Abd Allah Aazzam, the commandant Abu Hafs, Khattab, Muhammad Atta, Muhammed Sadeek Khan and Shahzad Tanweer "mercy of Allah upon them all", and if you are not able to understand and realize this change, do not blame none but yourselves.
Get out of our countries, Stop supporting the rotten governors, and do not prevent the Islamic nation to found its Legal State .
And I say to both of the Republicans and Democrats: You are trying in this panicked situation to find an egress from disasters encircling you in Iraq and Afghanistan, and you still reason with the same stupid rationality, you try to negotiate some parties to assure your getting out , but these parties can not help you and your trials will not bring to you nothing except the frustration –by Allah willing- , because you do not negotiate the real forces in the Islamic world, and it seems that you will enter in a painful trip of failing negotiations, and you will return –by Allah willing- obliged to negotiate the real forces.
And I tell them that Bush represent the level of thinking of the American nation despite all what they have from research's centers, researchers , experts and historians, a nation choosing Bush as a president is a weak nation in morals and rationality and thinking, and it is sufficient to see what's happened in the last meeting of Bush with the mendicant al-Maleki in Aamman, and what disagreements and quarrels happened in this meeting and exposed in public in spite of their need to show it as a successful meeting.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
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RedGlitter
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Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Well, let's see...
First off, what "Muslim riches" are we "stealing" exactly?
The remark about Bush representing the whole of America...? I guess that frees me to call whatever this idiot's name is (I'm too lazy to go back and spell it) the pot- unless maybe he's the kettle? (It's an old saying)
I guess his remarks could also free me to say that his nation are mostly horrible, torturous, murderous zealots.
And what do YOU think?
More importantly perhaps, what do you WANT us to think?
First off, what "Muslim riches" are we "stealing" exactly?
The remark about Bush representing the whole of America...? I guess that frees me to call whatever this idiot's name is (I'm too lazy to go back and spell it) the pot- unless maybe he's the kettle? (It's an old saying)
I guess his remarks could also free me to say that his nation are mostly horrible, torturous, murderous zealots.
And what do YOU think?
More importantly perhaps, what do you WANT us to think?
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Typical message from a sick murdering SOB 
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Ayman al-Zawahri, whoever he was, does seem to have been fairly annoyed with US foreign policy, doesn't he. To the point of fighting back on his home turf at least. You sow what you reap is reasonable proverb in most circumstances and in his shoes I expect I'd have been pretty miffed as well. He did what he could to express his own point of view and nobody can be asked to go further than that.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
This man is one of the intellectuals behind the whole "we are going to create a caliphate and have one Islamic world ruled by strict Sharia law" idea. Which is what all of this is about in a lot of ways, its what has inspired Muslim radicals for years, especially the Sunni ones. This is what he refers to as "The Islamic Nation" and what that means is actually a union of Muslim states from Morocco to Indonesia, ruled by one man or one party and through an ultra-strict version of Islam, which is why he asks the American politicians not to get involved in stopping such a state being created (he doesn't seem too worried about what ordinary Muslims feel). This is also why he denigrates the current regimes in Egypt, Saudi, Syria, etc, because all of this states will need to be destroyed to create the Caliphate, along with OPEC, the CIS, and perhaps the EU. Of course these ideas seem crazy to us, though their is historic precedent for them, however, what these people are intent on creating is a Islamic version of their own religious "Third Reich" that will no doubt have as its first priority the destruction of Israel, and the conversion of its neighbouring "infidel" countries.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Diuretic;498626 wrote: And as such they must be resisted. The question is "how?"
Thats the real trick isn't it? Well, I wouldn't start from here, but can't rewind the Iraq war, but anyway I am not getting paid enough to be working this one out. The pressing issues at the moment are Iraq (getting out), Iran (stopping the bomb), and the Somalia-Ethiopia conflict, (preventing a regional war in an area full of millions of very vulnerable people). Buggered if I know what to do. :-2
Thats the real trick isn't it? Well, I wouldn't start from here, but can't rewind the Iraq war, but anyway I am not getting paid enough to be working this one out. The pressing issues at the moment are Iraq (getting out), Iran (stopping the bomb), and the Somalia-Ethiopia conflict, (preventing a regional war in an area full of millions of very vulnerable people). Buggered if I know what to do. :-2
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
History teaches that extremism is always stamped out by a massacre. Like Masada, both world wars, etc.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Raven;499461 wrote: History teaches that extremism is always stamped out by a massacre. Like Masada, both world wars, etc.That's a very puzzling post, Raven.
Which extremists were stamped out at Masada? Do you regard the defenders of Herod's fortress as extreme? Were they extreme before the Romans decided to tear Jerusalem stone from stone, or only afterwards? Whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death" as an American reality, if the defenders of Masada get labelled extreme?
Which extremists were stamped out by each World War?
Which extremists were stamped out at Masada? Do you regard the defenders of Herod's fortress as extreme? Were they extreme before the Romans decided to tear Jerusalem stone from stone, or only afterwards? Whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death" as an American reality, if the defenders of Masada get labelled extreme?
Which extremists were stamped out by each World War?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499464 wrote: That's a very puzzling post, Raven.
Which extremists were stamped out at Masada? Do you regard the defenders of Herod's fortress as extreme? Were they extreme before the Romans decided to tear Jerusalem stone from stone, or only afterwards? Whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death" as an American reality, if the defenders of Masada get labelled extreme?
Which extremists were stamped out by each World War?
Yes the jews of masada were extremists. They were the 'zealots' of their day. They were fighting a guerilla type war with rome at the time. They felt Rome was an occupying force that needed removing.
First world war was started by an extremist assasination. Second was started by another example of racial extremism. If you dont think the second world war was ended by a massacre then nothing was.
Extremism in political and social and religious viewpoints has always existed. It's when those elements are mixed together they create nitroglycerin.
The jews of masada chose suicide, but what followed was the massacre of jerusalem, down to the temple. The trench warfare of the first world war was indeed a massacre of whole generations.
Take a look at the crusades as another example of massacres. Extremism has always been with us. It just takes on different shades from time to time. But it's message is always the same.
Which extremists were stamped out at Masada? Do you regard the defenders of Herod's fortress as extreme? Were they extreme before the Romans decided to tear Jerusalem stone from stone, or only afterwards? Whatever happened to "give me liberty or give me death" as an American reality, if the defenders of Masada get labelled extreme?
Which extremists were stamped out by each World War?
Yes the jews of masada were extremists. They were the 'zealots' of their day. They were fighting a guerilla type war with rome at the time. They felt Rome was an occupying force that needed removing.
First world war was started by an extremist assasination. Second was started by another example of racial extremism. If you dont think the second world war was ended by a massacre then nothing was.
Extremism in political and social and religious viewpoints has always existed. It's when those elements are mixed together they create nitroglycerin.
The jews of masada chose suicide, but what followed was the massacre of jerusalem, down to the temple. The trench warfare of the first world war was indeed a massacre of whole generations.
Take a look at the crusades as another example of massacres. Extremism has always been with us. It just takes on different shades from time to time. But it's message is always the same.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Jewish zealots of yesterday have about the same complaint as muslim zealots do today. We never learn by history.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Raven;499467 wrote: Yes the jews of masada were extremists. They were the 'zealots' of their day. They were fighting a guerilla type war with rome at the time. They felt Rome was an occupying force that needed removing.
First world war was started by an extremist assasination. Second was started by another example of racial extremism. If you dont think the second world war was ended by a massacre then nothing was.
Extremism in political and social and religious viewpoints has always existed. It's when those elements are mixed together they create nitroglycerin.
The jews of masada chose suicide, but what followed was the massacre of jerusalem, down to the temple. The trench warfare of the first world war was indeed a massacre of whole generations.
Take a look at the crusades as another example of massacres. Extremism has always been with us. It just takes on different shades from time to time. But it's message is always the same.
Your history is so reversed, Raven. The retreat to Masada was a consequence of the destruction of Jerusalem, not the cause of it.
What you wrote was "extremism is always stamped out by a massacre". How does trench warfare come into that? How do the events which started the world wars come into it?
"If you dont think the second world war was ended by a massacre then nothing was"? Who was massacred at the end of the second world war? Seriously, I'm not following a word of what you're writing so far, and I'm trying very hard.
First world war was started by an extremist assasination. Second was started by another example of racial extremism. If you dont think the second world war was ended by a massacre then nothing was.
Extremism in political and social and religious viewpoints has always existed. It's when those elements are mixed together they create nitroglycerin.
The jews of masada chose suicide, but what followed was the massacre of jerusalem, down to the temple. The trench warfare of the first world war was indeed a massacre of whole generations.
Take a look at the crusades as another example of massacres. Extremism has always been with us. It just takes on different shades from time to time. But it's message is always the same.
Your history is so reversed, Raven. The retreat to Masada was a consequence of the destruction of Jerusalem, not the cause of it.
What you wrote was "extremism is always stamped out by a massacre". How does trench warfare come into that? How do the events which started the world wars come into it?
"If you dont think the second world war was ended by a massacre then nothing was"? Who was massacred at the end of the second world war? Seriously, I'm not following a word of what you're writing so far, and I'm trying very hard.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499483 wrote: Your history is so reversed, Raven. The retreat to Masada was a consequence of the destruction of Jerusalem, not the cause of it.
What you wrote was "extremism is always stamped out by a massacre". How does trench warfare come into that? How do the events which started the world wars come into it?
"If you dont think the second world war was ended by a massacre then nothing was"? Who was massacred at the end of the second world war? Seriously, I'm not following a word of what you're writing so far, and I'm trying very hard.
Sorry mate, but it's still my first cup of coffee. Lets see if I can be a little more succinct for ya. Give me a minute.
What you wrote was "extremism is always stamped out by a massacre". How does trench warfare come into that? How do the events which started the world wars come into it?
"If you dont think the second world war was ended by a massacre then nothing was"? Who was massacred at the end of the second world war? Seriously, I'm not following a word of what you're writing so far, and I'm trying very hard.
Sorry mate, but it's still my first cup of coffee. Lets see if I can be a little more succinct for ya. Give me a minute.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499483 wrote: Your history is so reversed, Raven. The retreat to Masada was a consequence of the destruction of Jerusalem, not the cause of it.
What you wrote was "extremism is always stamped out by a massacre". How does trench warfare come into that? How do the events which started the world wars come into it?
"If you dont think the second world war was ended by a massacre then nothing was"? Who was massacred at the end of the second world war? Seriously, I'm not following a word of what you're writing so far, and I'm trying very hard.
My point on Masada was that it was a base for the zealots during the whole of their struggle with the Roman occupation of Palestine. I was going by the writings of Josephus. Even Herod himself built it up as a fortress from the jewish zealots. The roman empire can be compared to todays western democracies. The muslims believe they have the same fight. And they are fighting it the same way. They are fighting the modern day 'roman empire'.
http://mosaic.lk.net/g-masada.html
Archduke Ferdinand was assasinated by a terrorist who belonged to a faction entitled the the Black Hand. More invasion and more struggle against it. As for the trenches, how can you say they werent a massacre of a whole generation of men? And for what?
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWarchduke.htm
And the second world war........one word. Holocaust.
Then annihilation. Two atomic bombs on two civilian cities. We wont even go into dresden.
What you wrote was "extremism is always stamped out by a massacre". How does trench warfare come into that? How do the events which started the world wars come into it?
"If you dont think the second world war was ended by a massacre then nothing was"? Who was massacred at the end of the second world war? Seriously, I'm not following a word of what you're writing so far, and I'm trying very hard.
My point on Masada was that it was a base for the zealots during the whole of their struggle with the Roman occupation of Palestine. I was going by the writings of Josephus. Even Herod himself built it up as a fortress from the jewish zealots. The roman empire can be compared to todays western democracies. The muslims believe they have the same fight. And they are fighting it the same way. They are fighting the modern day 'roman empire'.
http://mosaic.lk.net/g-masada.html
Archduke Ferdinand was assasinated by a terrorist who belonged to a faction entitled the the Black Hand. More invasion and more struggle against it. As for the trenches, how can you say they werent a massacre of a whole generation of men? And for what?
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWarchduke.htm
And the second world war........one word. Holocaust.
Then annihilation. Two atomic bombs on two civilian cities. We wont even go into dresden.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
onsekiz;499512 wrote: Yep, that's what we call political Islam. Religion is a tool for this people, it's their biggest weapon.
Unfortunately, the world has seen this before. We even know how it will end. Then it will start all over again. And the ones to bear the brunt of all this are the ordinary folk stuck in the middle, who incidently have the right idea. We live, work, and play with our neighbors, and basically just get on with the job of living. In a healthy respect for one another. It never ceases to amaze me, when a few people with radical ideas manage to cause so much pain and havoc in the world.
Unfortunately, the world has seen this before. We even know how it will end. Then it will start all over again. And the ones to bear the brunt of all this are the ordinary folk stuck in the middle, who incidently have the right idea. We live, work, and play with our neighbors, and basically just get on with the job of living. In a healthy respect for one another. It never ceases to amaze me, when a few people with radical ideas manage to cause so much pain and havoc in the world.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Raven;499496 wrote: My point on Masada was that it was a base for the zealots during the whole of their struggle with the Roman occupation of Palestine. I was going by the writings of Josephus. Even Herod himself built it up as a fortress from the jewish zealots. The roman empire can be compared to todays western democracies. The muslims believe they have the same fight. And they are fighting it the same way. They are fighting the modern day 'roman empire'.
http://mosaic.lk.net/g-masada.html
Archduke Ferdinand was assasinated by a terrorist who belonged to a faction entitled the the Black Hand. More invasion and more struggle against it. As for the trenches, how can you say they werent a massacre of a whole generation of men? And for what?
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWarchduke.htm
And the second world war........one word. Holocaust.
Then annihilation. Two atomic bombs on two civilian cities. We wont even go into dresden.All you say is doubtless true. What I wondered is how any of it is relevant to your initial "History teaches that extremism is always stamped out by a massacre" which is what I was questioning. The dead of Dresden or Nagasaki or Hiroshima or the Holocaust, or the troops in the trenches, or even Archduke Ferdinand, were none of them extremists. The guy who shot the Archduke, if I remember right, died of natural causes about a decade after the end of World War One. It's your stamping out of extremism that I can't get to grips with. As far as I can see from every example you've put forward, extremism always dies back into obscurity when the provocation which feeds it with followers and adherents is stopped. The dead of Masada have inspired the current extremists in the Holy Land for the last sixty years, for example - zealotry is rampant round those parts today. The longest-lived influence anyone can have is to be martyred for a cause.
http://mosaic.lk.net/g-masada.html
Archduke Ferdinand was assasinated by a terrorist who belonged to a faction entitled the the Black Hand. More invasion and more struggle against it. As for the trenches, how can you say they werent a massacre of a whole generation of men? And for what?
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWarchduke.htm
And the second world war........one word. Holocaust.
Then annihilation. Two atomic bombs on two civilian cities. We wont even go into dresden.All you say is doubtless true. What I wondered is how any of it is relevant to your initial "History teaches that extremism is always stamped out by a massacre" which is what I was questioning. The dead of Dresden or Nagasaki or Hiroshima or the Holocaust, or the troops in the trenches, or even Archduke Ferdinand, were none of them extremists. The guy who shot the Archduke, if I remember right, died of natural causes about a decade after the end of World War One. It's your stamping out of extremism that I can't get to grips with. As far as I can see from every example you've put forward, extremism always dies back into obscurity when the provocation which feeds it with followers and adherents is stopped. The dead of Masada have inspired the current extremists in the Holy Land for the last sixty years, for example - zealotry is rampant round those parts today. The longest-lived influence anyone can have is to be martyred for a cause.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499532 wrote: All you say is doubtless true. What I wondered is how any of it is relevant to your initial "History teaches that extremism is always stamped out by a massacre" which is what I was questioning. The dead of Dresden or Nagasaki or Hiroshima or the Holocaust, or the troops in the trenches, or even Archduke Ferdinand, were none of them extremists. The guy who shot the Archduke, if I remember right, died of natural causes about a decade after the end of World War One. It's your stamping out of extremism that I can't get to grips with. As far as I can see from every example you've put forward, extremism always dies back into obscurity when the provocation which feeds it with followers and adherents is stopped. The dead of Masada have inspired the current extremists in the Holy Land for the last sixty years, for example - zealotry is rampant round those parts today. The longest-lived influence anyone can have is to be martyred for a cause.
What rome did to the jews was a massacre! What america did to japan was a massacre! What the allies did in ww2 was a massacre! What was done to the cathars was a massacre! Anytime in history when people were prepared to fight for a cause and die for it, they were slaughtered by the ruling empire. I think anytime someone joins a cause for martyrdom, then it goes into the category of extreme. Mind you, the early christians did too. And they were MASSACRED!!! I am equating extremism to martyrdom and zealotry. Yes they were what we today would call terrorist. And to further my point, it has always existed. I wonder why there are so many who ride the middle ground? Because it's safe? These people are willing to commit all manner of acts, to prove their point. To protect and promote something they feel is threatened. And history shows they will be slaughtered. And the ensuing ww3 will emcompass the world in fire.
What rome did to the jews was a massacre! What america did to japan was a massacre! What the allies did in ww2 was a massacre! What was done to the cathars was a massacre! Anytime in history when people were prepared to fight for a cause and die for it, they were slaughtered by the ruling empire. I think anytime someone joins a cause for martyrdom, then it goes into the category of extreme. Mind you, the early christians did too. And they were MASSACRED!!! I am equating extremism to martyrdom and zealotry. Yes they were what we today would call terrorist. And to further my point, it has always existed. I wonder why there are so many who ride the middle ground? Because it's safe? These people are willing to commit all manner of acts, to prove their point. To protect and promote something they feel is threatened. And history shows they will be slaughtered. And the ensuing ww3 will emcompass the world in fire.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Diuretic;499476 wrote: [...] but to return to flippant mode again, [...]
Back-flippants? That takes daring and skill. 8.2 :yh_clap
Back-flippants? That takes daring and skill. 8.2 :yh_clap
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Accountable;499546 wrote: Back-flippants? That takes daring and skill. 8.2 :yh_clap
:yh_rotfl
:yh_rotfl
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Raven;499542 wrote: What rome did to the jews was a massacre! What america did to japan was a massacre! What the allies did in ww2 was a massacre! What was done to the cathars was a massacre! Anytime in history when people were prepared to fight for a cause and die for it, they were slaughtered by the ruling empire. I think anytime someone joins a cause for martyrdom, then it goes into the category of extreme. Mind you, the early christians did too. And they were MASSACRED!!! I am equating extremism to martyrdom and zealotry. Yes they were what we today would call terrorist. And to further my point, it has always existed. I wonder why there are so many who ride the middle ground? Because it's safe? These people are willing to commit all manner of acts, to prove their point. To protect and promote something they feel is threatened. And history shows they will be slaughtered. And the ensuing ww3 will emcompass the world in fire.
Does it not occur to you that the people who were massacred were innocent, though? That none of those groups you've mentioned were composed of extremists, or that they were fighting for a cause or willing to die for it? You're confusing the victims with the "enemy". My own opinion is that empires need to invent an enemy, not that enemies exist in such vast numbers that they can be massacred. Empires invariably massacre the innocent.
Does it not occur to you that the people who were massacred were innocent, though? That none of those groups you've mentioned were composed of extremists, or that they were fighting for a cause or willing to die for it? You're confusing the victims with the "enemy". My own opinion is that empires need to invent an enemy, not that enemies exist in such vast numbers that they can be massacred. Empires invariably massacre the innocent.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499550 wrote: Does it not occur to you that the people who were massacred were innocent, though? That none of those groups you've mentioned were composed of extremists, or that they were fighting for a cause or willing to die for it? You're confusing the victims with the "enemy". My own opinion is that empires need to invent an enemy, not that enemies exist in such vast numbers that they can be massacred. Empires invariably massacre the innocent.
No they werent. In going even further, I am going to say something that may prove to be REALLY controversial, but here goes.
NOONE is truly innocent. All those people I mentioned belonged to, whether actively or not, to extremist groups. In the view of those who slaughter and massacre them, jews were jews, germans were germans, japanese were japanese, cathars were cathars, etc. Do you really suppose the muslim extremists and those that oppose them feel any different? Thats the reason why there is wholesale slaughter of muslim on muslim in Iraq today. If you are pro-west you are one of the enemy. If you are muslim, you are one of the enemy. Doesnt matter if you ACTUALLY do anything. Doesnt matter what you ACTUALLY believe. There is no such thing as collateral damage. Today the battlefield is genocide or bust. Generations are nothing compared to the wholesale slaughter of entire peoples of today. We seem determined to exterminate entire populations of KIND. The machine of war has gone out of control. Human rights? Just a self rightous cry to the victor after the fact. Geneva convention? Just an unprovable and unworkable set of standards that NOONE goes by. The UN? Just a sorry excuse to camoflage real intent. It's greed. Pure and simple. Imperialism masked by the title of democracy. Islam wants sharia law and rule, and the west wants oil. Who will win this one? The god of religious tyranny, or the god of industry? Noone is innocent.
No they werent. In going even further, I am going to say something that may prove to be REALLY controversial, but here goes.
NOONE is truly innocent. All those people I mentioned belonged to, whether actively or not, to extremist groups. In the view of those who slaughter and massacre them, jews were jews, germans were germans, japanese were japanese, cathars were cathars, etc. Do you really suppose the muslim extremists and those that oppose them feel any different? Thats the reason why there is wholesale slaughter of muslim on muslim in Iraq today. If you are pro-west you are one of the enemy. If you are muslim, you are one of the enemy. Doesnt matter if you ACTUALLY do anything. Doesnt matter what you ACTUALLY believe. There is no such thing as collateral damage. Today the battlefield is genocide or bust. Generations are nothing compared to the wholesale slaughter of entire peoples of today. We seem determined to exterminate entire populations of KIND. The machine of war has gone out of control. Human rights? Just a self rightous cry to the victor after the fact. Geneva convention? Just an unprovable and unworkable set of standards that NOONE goes by. The UN? Just a sorry excuse to camoflage real intent. It's greed. Pure and simple. Imperialism masked by the title of democracy. Islam wants sharia law and rule, and the west wants oil. Who will win this one? The god of religious tyranny, or the god of industry? Noone is innocent.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Huh? What about those in the group who are opposed to their group's actions? What about those who are ignorant of the war? Aren't they innocent?
I understand that no leadership can claim innocence, but the masses?
I understand that no leadership can claim innocence, but the masses?
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Raven;499553 wrote: Noone is innocent.And you think I'm barking mad? Let me list the victims of these massacres you've explicitly brought up.
From Josephus, since you've introduced him as an authority:Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done), [Titus] Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and Temple...
Who else was there? Oh, the trenches. Conscript soldiers, right? Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima? Civilians. The Holocaust? You must be joking if you call the camp inmates extremists or suggest they were deserving of death.
"History teaches that extremism is always stamped out by a massacre"? What extremists were killed by the massacres you raised as examples? Raven, you're overtaken by ideology and a fanatical desire to be right regardless of the facts.
The simple way to stop the conflict is to use your armed forces to control the population within your own borders. Nobody has the slightest interest in what any country gets up to within its own borders.
From Josephus, since you've introduced him as an authority:Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done), [Titus] Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and Temple...
Who else was there? Oh, the trenches. Conscript soldiers, right? Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima? Civilians. The Holocaust? You must be joking if you call the camp inmates extremists or suggest they were deserving of death.
"History teaches that extremism is always stamped out by a massacre"? What extremists were killed by the massacres you raised as examples? Raven, you're overtaken by ideology and a fanatical desire to be right regardless of the facts.
The simple way to stop the conflict is to use your armed forces to control the population within your own borders. Nobody has the slightest interest in what any country gets up to within its own borders.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Accountable;499558 wrote: Huh? What about those in the group who are opposed to their group's actions? What about those who are ignorant of the war? Aren't they innocent?
I understand that no leadership can claim innocence, but the masses?
Those opposed are in the enemy camp. And noone is ignorant of war.
I understand that no leadership can claim innocence, but the masses?
Those opposed are in the enemy camp. And noone is ignorant of war.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Raven;499562 wrote: Those opposed are in the enemy camp. And noone is ignorant of war.
They may be your enemy but they're not mine. There's a damn simple way to make a moral choice in any conflict. Side with the underdog, every single time. The guys with the planes and the tanks are invariably the aggressors.
They may be your enemy but they're not mine. There's a damn simple way to make a moral choice in any conflict. Side with the underdog, every single time. The guys with the planes and the tanks are invariably the aggressors.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499560 wrote: And you think I'm barking mad? Let me list the victims of these massacres you've explicitly brought up.
From Josephus, since you've introduced him as an authority:Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done), [Titus] Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and Temple...
Who else was there? Oh, the trenches. Conscript soldiers, right? Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima? Civilians. The Holocaust? You must be joking if you call the camp inmates extremists or suggest they were deserving of death.
"History teaches that extremism is always stamped out by a massacre"? What extremists were killed by the massacres you raised as examples? Raven, you're overtaken by ideology and a fanatical desire to be right regardless of the facts.
The simple way to stop the conflict is to use your armed forces to control the population within your own borders. Nobody has the slightest interest in what any country gets up to within its own borders.
You just made my point with Josephus. There was NOONE left to slay.
I never said they were deserving of death. I said there was noone truly innocent. And you missed my point entirely. We are all extremists. Take yourself for instance. You seem to think I am trying to isolate a certain group. I am not.
From Josephus, since you've introduced him as an authority:Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done), [Titus] Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and Temple...
Who else was there? Oh, the trenches. Conscript soldiers, right? Dresden, Nagasaki, Hiroshima? Civilians. The Holocaust? You must be joking if you call the camp inmates extremists or suggest they were deserving of death.
"History teaches that extremism is always stamped out by a massacre"? What extremists were killed by the massacres you raised as examples? Raven, you're overtaken by ideology and a fanatical desire to be right regardless of the facts.
The simple way to stop the conflict is to use your armed forces to control the population within your own borders. Nobody has the slightest interest in what any country gets up to within its own borders.
You just made my point with Josephus. There was NOONE left to slay.
I never said they were deserving of death. I said there was noone truly innocent. And you missed my point entirely. We are all extremists. Take yourself for instance. You seem to think I am trying to isolate a certain group. I am not.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499568 wrote: They may be your enemy but they're not mine. There's a damn simple way to make a moral choice in any conflict. Side with the underdog, every single time. The guys with the planes and the tanks are invariably the aggressors.
See? Even you have chosen. Noone is innocent.
See? Even you have chosen. Noone is innocent.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Raven;499571 wrote: We are all extremists.Language becomes meaningless when it becomes indiscriminate. If extremists can't be distinguished from moderates, or victims from aggressors, there's no point in having the words in the first place. Of course we're not all extremists or aggressors, that's the only reason the words are in the dictionary. They can be mis-applied but they can't ever be universal.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499577 wrote: Language becomes meaningless when it becomes indiscriminate. If extremists can't be distinguished from moderates, or victims from aggressors, there's no point in having the words in the first place. Of course we're not all extremists or aggressors, that's the only reason the words are in the dictionary. They can be mis-applied but they can't ever be universal.
It's not indiscriminate. Extremist doesnt mean someone cant stop and discuss in a rational manner. And now you're picking at straws. I am getting to the plain brass tacks of the matter. People have what they believe firmly ingrained into their psyche early on. Childhood in fact. So that rules out children being innocent. People are born into a certain category of people. Remember all those boxes referring to ethnic origin, and you only check one? Then comes nationality? And the different viewpoints converge on a page. People, whether they like to admit it or not, hold prejudices. It could even be something as small as ignorance. And the words are in the dictionary so we can spell our words of choice correctly in an argument! :yh_bigsmi
It's not indiscriminate. Extremist doesnt mean someone cant stop and discuss in a rational manner. And now you're picking at straws. I am getting to the plain brass tacks of the matter. People have what they believe firmly ingrained into their psyche early on. Childhood in fact. So that rules out children being innocent. People are born into a certain category of people. Remember all those boxes referring to ethnic origin, and you only check one? Then comes nationality? And the different viewpoints converge on a page. People, whether they like to admit it or not, hold prejudices. It could even be something as small as ignorance. And the words are in the dictionary so we can spell our words of choice correctly in an argument! :yh_bigsmi
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
If it were true that all children have these ideas of religious affiliation or national jingoism instilled in their minds before they're capable of thinking for themselves then it would be plain child abuse that you're describing. It would also fail to account for my perspective. Some children are told what to believe, that's abusive. It's also fairly standard American practice in child-rearing - the Hell House is an entirely US phenomenon, after all. Let's not ignore that fundamentalism is more alive and well in the USA than anywhere in the Middle East.
Dismantling the teaching of faith to children would be the first step to sanity. Everyone's insistence that "my" faith is the only true faith and "your" faith is an error inspired by Satan is a many-sided process if it's held equally by Mormons, Jews, Christians and Muslims. Why on earth should any sane member of society assume that the Christians have the right in the argument? It's madness to go down that path for even more generations, look where it's got us so far.
Dismantling the teaching of faith to children would be the first step to sanity. Everyone's insistence that "my" faith is the only true faith and "your" faith is an error inspired by Satan is a many-sided process if it's held equally by Mormons, Jews, Christians and Muslims. Why on earth should any sane member of society assume that the Christians have the right in the argument? It's madness to go down that path for even more generations, look where it's got us so far.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499590 wrote: If it were true that all children have these ideas of religious affiliation or national jingoism instilled in their minds before they're capable of thinking for themselves then it would be plain child abuse that you're describing. It would also fail to account for my perspective. Some children are told what to believe, that's abusive. It's also fairly standard American practice in child-rearing - the Hell House is an entirely US phenomenon, after all. Let's not ignore that fundamentalism is more alive and well in the USA than anywhere in the Middle East.
Dismantling the teaching of faith to children would be the first step to sanity. Everyone's insistence that "my" faith is the only true faith and "your" faith is an error inspired by Satan is a many-sided process if it's held equally by Mormons, Jews, Christians and Muslims. Why on earth should any sane member of society assume that the Christians have the right in the argument? It's madness to go down that path for even more generations, look where it's got us so far.
Exactly. Look at the young children barely out of nappies in a mosque. A child goes through his bar-mitsvah before he is 12. And babies are christened at birth. Sunday school of all faiths is filled with kindergardeners. Which brings me back to my point. Even those whose religion is logic and reason. Noone is innocent. We all have the mark of an enemy to someone. There is something to divide us all. The fuel is there. All that is missing is an accelerant. Most people can suppress their prejudice enough to get along with everyone else. Some cant. And they become the gas for the fire.
Dismantling the teaching of faith to children would be the first step to sanity. Everyone's insistence that "my" faith is the only true faith and "your" faith is an error inspired by Satan is a many-sided process if it's held equally by Mormons, Jews, Christians and Muslims. Why on earth should any sane member of society assume that the Christians have the right in the argument? It's madness to go down that path for even more generations, look where it's got us so far.
Exactly. Look at the young children barely out of nappies in a mosque. A child goes through his bar-mitsvah before he is 12. And babies are christened at birth. Sunday school of all faiths is filled with kindergardeners. Which brings me back to my point. Even those whose religion is logic and reason. Noone is innocent. We all have the mark of an enemy to someone. There is something to divide us all. The fuel is there. All that is missing is an accelerant. Most people can suppress their prejudice enough to get along with everyone else. Some cant. And they become the gas for the fire.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
You'd accept, presumably, that if the US hadn't deployed its armed forces abroad after the destruction of the World Trade Center the number of these anti-Coalition Muslim fighters you label as extremists would be fewer today?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499599 wrote: You'd accept, presumably, that if the US hadn't deployed its armed forces abroad after the destruction of the World Trade Center the number of these anti-Coalition Muslim fighters you label as extremists would be fewer today?
Osama Bin Laden was gas on a fire. He has a cause. He hates the west and everything it stands for. He is fighting to the death the modern day roman empire. His cause was being fought a long time before the 11th of September. He just got us to fight back on that day. And when I say 'we', I mean the entire west. Britain is fighting there too. He is a catalyst for a division which has existed since the crusades. It's an ancient conflict by modern standards. We are just fighting the crusades again. For the 'holy land'. Only this time, we are going global with it. There is nothing new under the sun, says a wise old king named Solomon.
Osama Bin Laden was gas on a fire. He has a cause. He hates the west and everything it stands for. He is fighting to the death the modern day roman empire. His cause was being fought a long time before the 11th of September. He just got us to fight back on that day. And when I say 'we', I mean the entire west. Britain is fighting there too. He is a catalyst for a division which has existed since the crusades. It's an ancient conflict by modern standards. We are just fighting the crusades again. For the 'holy land'. Only this time, we are going global with it. There is nothing new under the sun, says a wise old king named Solomon.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Raven;499607 wrote: Osama Bin Laden was gas on a fire. He has a cause. He hates the west and everything it stands for. He is fighting to the death the modern day roman empire. His cause was being fought a long time before the 11th of September. He just got us to fight back on that day. And when I say 'we', I mean the entire west. Britain is fighting there too. He is a catalyst for a division which has existed since the crusades. It's an ancient conflict by modern standards. We are just fighting the crusades again. For the 'holy land'. Only this time, we are going global with it. There is nothing new under the sun, says a wise old king named Solomon.
You ignored my question.
Osama Bin Laden was a sidelined criminal until the US gave him thousands of newly-politicized and incensed adherents. Treating him as an international criminal might have had him in front of a jury by now instead of so much of the sub-Continent closing ranks in his defence. Invading Iraq added tens of thousands of fighters entirely uninterested in Osama Bin Laden to the equation. Here's the question again... would you accept that if the US hadn't deployed its armed forces abroad after the destruction of the World Trade Center the number of these anti-Coalition Muslim fighters you label as extremists would be fewer today?
You ignored my question.
Osama Bin Laden was a sidelined criminal until the US gave him thousands of newly-politicized and incensed adherents. Treating him as an international criminal might have had him in front of a jury by now instead of so much of the sub-Continent closing ranks in his defence. Invading Iraq added tens of thousands of fighters entirely uninterested in Osama Bin Laden to the equation. Here's the question again... would you accept that if the US hadn't deployed its armed forces abroad after the destruction of the World Trade Center the number of these anti-Coalition Muslim fighters you label as extremists would be fewer today?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499612 wrote: You ignored my question.
Osama Bin Laden was a sidelined criminal until the US gave him thousands of newly-politicized and incensed adherents. Treating him as an international criminal might have had him in front of a jury by now instead of so much of the sub-Continent closing ranks in his defence. Invading Iraq added tens of thousands of fighters entirely uninterested in Osama Bin Laden to the equation. Here's the question again... would you accept that if the US hadn't deployed its armed forces abroad after the destruction of the World Trade Center the number of these anti-Coalition Muslim fighters you label as extremists would be fewer today?
No. Because they were there already. They were just waiting for the catalyst. And so were we. Are you trying to say we arent extremist? We are just as much of an extremist as they. And we are both bent on destroying each other. It's not a happy situation for the world.
Osama Bin Laden was a sidelined criminal until the US gave him thousands of newly-politicized and incensed adherents. Treating him as an international criminal might have had him in front of a jury by now instead of so much of the sub-Continent closing ranks in his defence. Invading Iraq added tens of thousands of fighters entirely uninterested in Osama Bin Laden to the equation. Here's the question again... would you accept that if the US hadn't deployed its armed forces abroad after the destruction of the World Trade Center the number of these anti-Coalition Muslim fighters you label as extremists would be fewer today?
No. Because they were there already. They were just waiting for the catalyst. And so were we. Are you trying to say we arent extremist? We are just as much of an extremist as they. And we are both bent on destroying each other. It's not a happy situation for the world.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Raven;499618 wrote: No. Because they were there already. They were just waiting for the catalyst. And so were we. Are you trying to say we arent extremist? We are just as much of an extremist as they. And we are both bent on destroying each other. It's not a happy situation for the world.I'm bent on destroying nobody at all. Most people on the planet are on my side. Most people are not extreme. Governments seem to attract extremists which is a good reason to curtail their powers. As for other systems of government besides first-past-the-post representative democracies, or legal systems specific to individual nations, the more the merrier. Diversity is far healthier than any foreign-imposed pretended independence. The chief demon in International Affairs today isn't self-determination, it's the attempted imperial economic imposition of capitalism. Fortunately it's destroying the aggressors' pretence of democracy instead of winning any hearts or minds abroad.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499632 wrote: I'm bent on destroying nobody at all. Most people on the planet are on my side. Most people are not extreme. Governments seem to attract extremists which is a good reason to curtail their powers. As for other systems of government besides first-past-the-post representative democracies, or legal systems specific to individual nations, the more the merrier. Diversity is far healthier than any foreign-imposed pretended independence. The chief demon in International Affairs today isn't self-determination, it's the attempted imperial economic imposition of capitalism. Fortunately it's destroying the aggressors' pretence of democracy instead of winning any hearts or minds abroad.
You may not be bent on destroying anyone at present because you dont perceive any threat to your way of thinking. But you are just as capable of extremist thinking as anyone else on this planet. You are a human being are you not? And you live in a capitalistic society. Commerce driven industry. This is the home of industrialism. Maybe the threat of change hasnt come close enough home yet. But it's there in you. If you were no longer able to express yourself in the manner you see fit, or read the books you so love, or go to and fro wherever your feet took you, then you would. Pacifisim is a dream. It's a mist that noone can truly grasp. If you just stood still and did nothing while all this was taken from you, you would be classed as a martyr, because you would be slaughtered by those bent on taking it from you. NOONE is innocent! Your martydom would be the catalyst for others to take up arms. See where I am going? It's human nature. And it will continue to the last human standing.
You may not be bent on destroying anyone at present because you dont perceive any threat to your way of thinking. But you are just as capable of extremist thinking as anyone else on this planet. You are a human being are you not? And you live in a capitalistic society. Commerce driven industry. This is the home of industrialism. Maybe the threat of change hasnt come close enough home yet. But it's there in you. If you were no longer able to express yourself in the manner you see fit, or read the books you so love, or go to and fro wherever your feet took you, then you would. Pacifisim is a dream. It's a mist that noone can truly grasp. If you just stood still and did nothing while all this was taken from you, you would be classed as a martyr, because you would be slaughtered by those bent on taking it from you. NOONE is innocent! Your martydom would be the catalyst for others to take up arms. See where I am going? It's human nature. And it will continue to the last human standing.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
To excuse the Coalition rape of Iraq by invoking human nature is disingenuous and despicable. Do you not remember the extent of the deliberate lying that was needed just to set up the political framework which allowed it to happen in the first place? This wasn't a response to external events, this was home-grown deliberate mass murder with guaranteed built-in impunity. Few things have ever angered me more. The resistance set against allowing it to succeed is a moral imperative, and it's about time some Americans stood up to be counted on the side of justice.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499655 wrote: To excuse the Coalition rape of Iraq by invoking human nature is disingenuous and despicable. Do you not remember the extent of the deliberate lying that was needed just to set up the political framework which allowed it to happen in the first place? This wasn't a response to external events, this was home-grown deliberate mass murder with guaranteed built-in impunity. Few things have ever angered me more. The resistance set against allowing it to succeed is a moral imperative, and it's about time some Americans stood up to be counted on the side of justice.
I have already addressed this with my comment on the UN being a sorry excuse to hide real intent. But what disturbs me is your refusal to acknowledge the real threat of extremism on your part. You say few things have angered you more than the rape of Iraq? What about the rape of India by Britain? What about the rape of America by Britain, France and Spain? As a matter of fact, hasnt Britain raped just about every nation in the world? You see? It's in you too.
I have already addressed this with my comment on the UN being a sorry excuse to hide real intent. But what disturbs me is your refusal to acknowledge the real threat of extremism on your part. You say few things have angered you more than the rape of Iraq? What about the rape of India by Britain? What about the rape of America by Britain, France and Spain? As a matter of fact, hasnt Britain raped just about every nation in the world? You see? It's in you too.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Raven;499664 wrote: I have already addressed this with my comment on the UN being a sorry excuse to hide real intent. But what disturbs me is your refusal to acknowledge the real threat of extremism on your part. You say few things have angered you more than the rape of Iraq? What about the rape of India by Britain? What about the rape of America by Britain, France and Spain? As a matter of fact, hasnt Britain raped just about every nation in the world? You see? It's in you too.None of that interests me half so much as current, reversible, events. The UN stretched itself to the utter limit to avoid what happened, they're the last people to blame for what occurred. The White House administration bulldozed their forces abroad by hook and by crook.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499674 wrote: None of that interests me half so much as current, reversible, events. The UN stretched itself to the utter limit to avoid what happened, they're the last people to blame for what occurred. The White House administration bulldozed their forces abroad by hook and by crook. Then that proves my point altogether. Your viewpoint is an extremist one. You blame the U.S. for all that ails the world at the moment. I bet you even boycott all U.S. goods and services in the UK to protest. See? Everybody has an agenda. Noone is innocent.
~Quoth the Raven, Nevermore!~
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
spot;499655 wrote: To excuse the Coalition rape of Iraq by invoking human nature is disingenuous and despicable. Do you not remember the extent of the deliberate lying that was needed just to set up the political framework which allowed it to happen in the first place? This wasn't a response to external events, this was home-grown deliberate mass murder with guaranteed built-in impunity. Few things have ever angered me more. The resistance set against allowing it to succeed is a moral imperative, and it's about time some Americans stood up to be counted on the side of justice.
And if you were American just exactly how would you proceed?
And if you were American just exactly how would you proceed?
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
Raven;499681 wrote: Then that proves my point altogether. Your viewpoint is an extremist one. You blame the U.S. for all that ails the world at the moment. I bet you even boycott all U.S. goods and services in the UK to protest. See? Everybody has an agenda. Noone is innocent.
I'm the most placid and peaceable person you're likely to meet, and you know it. Similar, I suspect, were a lot of the current resistance fighters before their country was invaded. You call moral outrage an agenda? You call it not-innocent? It's a position forced on the people who have reacted. It's not a choice, it's circumstance. Remove the trigger and there's no weapon. The people involved are entirely innocent until they're forced into reacting. The reaction is entirely innocent in itself. Go back to the dictionary, we need to distinguish aggressor from combatant. Aggression is the crime, not any resistance to it. Decide who has the planes and the tanks and then award them the guilt on that basis.
As for my opinion, it's middle-of-the-road and always has been. Osama Bin Laden qualifies as an extremist driven by a political agenda and influenced by his religious understanding. The power-mongers of the White House qualify as extremists driven by a political agenda and influenced by their religious understanding. I'm the guy in the middle, not a driving force.
I'm the most placid and peaceable person you're likely to meet, and you know it. Similar, I suspect, were a lot of the current resistance fighters before their country was invaded. You call moral outrage an agenda? You call it not-innocent? It's a position forced on the people who have reacted. It's not a choice, it's circumstance. Remove the trigger and there's no weapon. The people involved are entirely innocent until they're forced into reacting. The reaction is entirely innocent in itself. Go back to the dictionary, we need to distinguish aggressor from combatant. Aggression is the crime, not any resistance to it. Decide who has the planes and the tanks and then award them the guilt on that basis.
As for my opinion, it's middle-of-the-road and always has been. Osama Bin Laden qualifies as an extremist driven by a political agenda and influenced by his religious understanding. The power-mongers of the White House qualify as extremists driven by a political agenda and influenced by their religious understanding. I'm the guy in the middle, not a driving force.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Ayman al-Zawahri addresses the American people
onsekiz;499666 wrote: I talk with my father about politics often. When he saw the news on TV about the clash between Turkish army and PKK he said that "Do you think our soldiers are martyrs? I don't think so, PKK militants are greater martyrs , they're fighting for their freedom." Don't know if it's a good example.
If only my English let me explain it better.What your father said is a brave thing to have said, regardless of who is justified in that battle. I hope you'll tell him that you told us about it and that someone expressed his admiration. We should all be able to stand back from mere patriotism and see the world from more than just one perspective.
If only my English let me explain it better.What your father said is a brave thing to have said, regardless of who is justified in that battle. I hope you'll tell him that you told us about it and that someone expressed his admiration. We should all be able to stand back from mere patriotism and see the world from more than just one perspective.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.