Free will

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:58 pm

I know that there's no 'evidence' for free will.

In fact an awful lot of effort has been expended in disproving it's existence.

But it's the only really important thing we have as individuals.

'Disprove' the existence of free will and the moral world collapses.

Regards,

shrike.

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:04 pm

I've been looking forward to this discussion for a long time.

I challenge spot to join in.

That's why I've been putting it off.

Welcome back, shrike.

Glad you've returned. :-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:07 pm

I'm surprised you state there is no evidence for free will. Normally it would be said no evidence for "fate". I don't think there is enough evidence to confirm either.

Personally I think it is a combination of both.

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:23 pm

koan;522435 wrote: I'm surprised you state there is no evidence for free will. Normally it would be said no evidence for "fate". I don't think there is enough evidence to confirm either.

Personally I think it is a combination of both.

Imagine yourself in a Nazi concentration camp. You've been told to murder X or be murdered yourself. (This isn't a fantasy, of course. It really happened to some who were at the 'mercy' of evil people.)

What do you do?

You a) murder someone or b) are murdered yourself. Those are the only options in that hideous 'world'.

I like to think that I'd take option b

Where's my free will in such a case? I'd suggest it's only in option b, even though it'd mean my death.

Regards,

shrike.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:42 pm

shrike;522447 wrote: Imagine yourself in a Nazi concentration camp. You've been told to murder X or be murdered yourself. (This isn't a fantasy, of course. It really happened to some who were at the 'mercy' of evil people.)

What do you do?

You a) murder someone or b) are murdered yourself. Those are the only options in that hideous 'world'.

I like to think that I'd take option b

Where's my free will in such a case? I'd suggest it's only in option b, even though it'd mean my death.

Regards,

shrike.

Either way you will commit murder so there is no free will in that. There is however, free will when it comes to whether or not you decide to murder selfishly or in an act of selfless love for your fellow man.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:00 pm

shrike;522447 wrote: What do you do?
Simple. You kill them. In your scenario, everyone is down the crapper anyway, INCLUDING yourself. Give me a little longer to plot the killing of a bunch of Nazis.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:47 pm

Shrike

Why are you asking this type of question? Knowing the situation the US is in war, etc... I'm suspicious of these question @ war & where people here in FG stand Why? You have 2-3 thread relating to this?

Patsy

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:50 pm

Clint;522458 wrote: Either way you will commit murder so there is no free will in that. There is however, free will when it comes to whether or not you decide to murder selfishly or in an act of selfless love for your fellow man.

How could I be committing murder if I choose option b and am myself murdered?

The act that would end my life would not be mine.

Regards,

shrike.

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:52 pm

Patsy Warnick;522546 wrote: Shrike

Why are you asking this type of question? Knowing the situation the US is in war, etc... I'm suspicious of these question @ war & where people here in FG stand Why? You have 2-3 thread relating to this?

Patsy

I have no idea what you're talking about, Patsy.

I'm an Englishman.

Best regards,

shrike.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:54 pm

Shrike

He says this war is - murder - Lets not get into this

Its a no win situation - I stated before go to thread Anti - War Protester.

Lets not debate this again

Shrike - you need therapy - I see your statements insulting - ugly

Patsy

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:01 pm

I'm not sure why you all are so VERY EXCITED to a forum in which you can express any thought you might want to say!

Free will means (and I hope we know/exprerience the best of this) the best of it.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:05 pm

Lulu2;522643 wrote: I'm not sure why you all are so VERY EXCITED to a forum in which you can express any thought you might want to say!

Free will means (and I hope we know/exprerience the best of this) the best of it.

Well there you go... fish in both pickles.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:07 pm

FREE WILL IS ONE THING - Shrike replys imagine yourself in a Nazi camp??

Of all the situations in the world Shrike pick a Nazi camp..!!!!

GO AWAY ...

Patsy

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:46 pm

Patsy Warnick;522546 wrote: Shrike

Why are you asking this type of question? Knowing the situation the US is in war, etc... I'm suspicious of these question @ war & where people here in FG stand Why? You have 2-3 thread relating to this?

Patsy

Haven't I answered this question before?

Regards,

shrike.

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:48 pm

Patsy Warnick;522654 wrote: FREE WILL IS ONE THING - Shrike replys imagine yourself in a Nazi camp??

Of all the situations in the world Shrike pick a Nazi camp..!!!!

GO AWAY ...

Patsy

What's your problem with a Nazi concentration camp as a setting for a moral problem, Patsy?

I think there might have been more than one or two moral problems in such places.

Regards,

shrike.

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:50 pm

Patsy Warnick;522640 wrote: Shrike

He says this war is - murder - Lets not get into this

Its a no win situation - I stated before go to thread Anti - War Protester.

Lets not debate this again

Shrike - you need therapy - I see your statements insulting - ugly

Patsy

You're a dangerous idiot, Patsy.

Regards,

shrike.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:04 am

Of all the questions to ask ?

Your example of free will is a Nazi Camp.

I don't know what your fishing for - I don't care. for your example in this Thread for free will sucks. and your 2-3 other threads referring to Nazi camps or our current war.

Your comments suck & your fishing ...

There has to be something better to discuss.???

Patsy

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:19 am

Patsy Warnick;522775 wrote: Of all the questions to ask ?

Your example of free will is a Nazi Camp.

I don't know what your fishing for - I don't care. for your example in this Thread for free will sucks. and your 2-3 other threads referring to Nazi camps or our current war.

Your comments suck & your fishing ...

There has to be something better to discuss.???

Patsy

I'm a stranger here and I don't want to pry, but...

Has Patsy been a mental home recently?

If she was I think a refund is in order...

Regards,

shrike.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:34 am

I think perhaps rubbers really do break after all. Now if you are going to be a troll, be a respectful and classy troll and not the imbecile you are behaving like. Or are. And you owe Ms. Warnick and the rest of us an apology. You are not amusing.

shrike · Post by **shrike** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:43 am

RedGlitter;522799 wrote: You are not amusing.

That's the majority view, is it?

I'm sorry but I've seen no evidence of that.

What I have seen is a few complacent people discomfited.

And I've had a veiled threat to the effect that someone'd be happy to kill me.

Is that Forum Garden hospitality? Is that democracy? is that US justice?

Best regards,

shrike.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:01 am

shrike;522814 wrote: That's the majority view, is it?

I'm sorry but I've seen no evidence of that.

What I have seen is a few complacent people discomfited.

And I've had a veiled threat to the effect that someone'd be happy to kill me.

Is that Forum Garden hospitality? Is that democracy? is that US justice?

Best regards,

shrike.

They're timid creatures, shrike, and they can see you using Grammar at them. Grammar's an unfriendly act from anyone, much less from someone they don't know. Pull rank on them, you've been here long enough.

The moral act is to refuse to cooperate, and to select the moral act is to exercise free will.

BabyRider wants you to kill yo'self some mofo nazi biatches, as I understand matters, which suggests to me that she's not experienced arriving at Treblinka II by train even through the medium of the printed word. Despite that, and in the context of the setting you selected, I think she's actually right as a moral duty and as an exercise in free will though there's only one day in the history of that camp when it led to any survivors with stories to tell. That's what comes of providing a context to a moral dilemma, shrike.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:42 am

RedGlitter;522799 wrote: I think perhaps rubbers really do break after all. Now if you are going to be a troll, be a respectful and classy troll and not the imbecile you are behaving like. Or are. And you owe Ms. Warnick and the rest of us an apology. You are not amusing.

are we supposed to pretend it never happened? Nazi concentration camps?

Last I heard that was unreasonable.

If shrike showed up saying "Yay Nazis!" I could understand the animosity. As it is, the word troll is well out of place here. We might try chilling out.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:50 am

BabyRider;522474 wrote: Simple. You kill them. In your scenario, everyone is down the crapper anyway, INCLUDING yourself. Give me a little longer to plot the killing of a bunch of Nazis.
I don't actually think that resistance within the fence of the camps is a reasonable answer, but the entire setting is so extreme that I have no confidence in anything I could suggest as a moral response. Purely as background, though, I'll post this paragraph:

The lesson learned by the Jewish prisoners who worked in the camp was that the cost of a courageous act like that performed by Berliner was very high - more than 160 Jews were executed in reprisal for the killing of one SS man. In light of the fact that the Germans had also changed their methods, instances of this sort did not recur. It became clear that individual, spontaneous acts like that of Berliner, however admirable, were not the way to rescue, nor could they even slow down the annihilation activities in the camp.

Proceedings Of The Fourth Yad Vashem International Historical Conference, Jerusalem, January 1980: Jewish Prisoner Uprisings In The Treblinka And Sobibor Extermination Camps http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/yvscamps.html

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:24 am

It seems to me that if the words "Imagine yourself in a Nazi concentration camp"

were omitted from the original example, the example would still be useful, and

all the wank would go out of this thread, which could be an interesting

*philosophical* discussion, and not yet another stupid flame war. How about it?

Shrike wrote:

"You've been told to murder X or be murdered yourself. (This isn't a fantasy, of course. It really happened to some who were at the 'mercy' of evil people.)

What do you do?

You a) murder someone or b) are murdered yourself. Those are the only options in that hideous 'world'.

I like to think that I'd take option b

Where's my free will in such a case? I'd suggest it's only in option b, even though it'd mean my death."

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:29 am

koan;522821 wrote: are we supposed to pretend it never happened? Nazi concentration camps?

Last I heard that was unreasonable.

If shrike showed up saying "Yay Nazis!" I could understand the animosity. As it is, the word troll is well out of place here. We might try chilling out.

I was not referring to nazis. I was referring to Shrike's calling Patsy in at least two of his threads, a "bloody fool" an "idiot" and his remark about the mental ward. Do you find that acceptable? I don't.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:32 am

RedGlitter;522836 wrote: I was referring to Shrike's calling Patsy in at least two of his threads, a "bloody fool" an "idiot" and his remark about the mental ward. Do you find that acceptable? I don't.

To be fair, he was told to go away, and that he needed therapy, before. It would

be nice if this thread could get back on track instead of being YASFW.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:39 am

RedGlitter;522836 wrote: I was not referring to nazis. I was referring to Shrike's calling Patsy in at least two of his threads, a "bloody fool" an "idiot" and his remark about the mental ward. Do you find that acceptable? I don't.

I just read the other thread and found quite a few unacceptable things. I was not really that upset by shrike's behaviour. Aside from the, to me, obvious fact that the OP was entirely misunderstood.

Keep it in that thread.

And everyone should be aware that blatantly and repeatedly telling a member to go away is just plain wrong.

eta: and that's not me telling people how to behave. It's the bloody rules.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 3:47 am

The Rules also include respect for all members. Let's try having some.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:01 am

shrike;522431 wrote: I know that there's no 'evidence' for free will.

In fact an awful lot of effort has been expended in disproving it's existence.

But it's the only really important thing we have as individuals.

'Disprove' the existence of free will and the moral world collapses.

Regards,

shrike.

I see two possibilities. Both could be discussed, I'm just wondering which you had in mind.

There is "fate" vs "free will" as a more theological discussion or there is "free will" vs "control by others".

In your given scenario you are presenting the latter. The person does still have a choice though the choices are limited so they still have free will in the larger sense. Just because the person is not free to choose from whichever options they would choose him/herself, does not mean that we are pushed through life by the decisions others make for us. We have the ability to go along with it or to object. There are some great examples of wo/men who have made history because they were willing to die for what they believed in.

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:25 am

Diuretic;522856 wrote: I think the usual formula is freewill v determinism.

That's the historical context and it's the way the OP was worded, as far as I can see. It seems to have subsequently strayed into the territory of moral dilemma but we might try to pull it back.

More than anything it was Newton's exposure of the simple rules governing the clockwork of the universe which so shocked people. Until the end of the nineteenth century it seemed, famously from his work, that if the exact state of a closed system, however complex, were known then the exact condition it ended up in could in principle be predicted in advance. Free will seemed to have no place left to hide.

The genuinely random nature of quantum events was finally put forward and came to be accepted within fifty years. Free will again had an arguable basis which didn't rely on theological considerations. The swing swang back to determinism when the idea of a multiverse and timeline dimensions were popularized, initially by SF authors like Heinlein and later by core scientists. If everything happens despite the observer only being aware of a single timeline then free will returns to the status of illusion.

None of this is simply irrelevant to the way people live their lives. The detatchment from illusion of the Buddhists is predicated, I think, by an assumption that free will or determinism is merely a perspective and that neither matters to the unattainable underlying reality of existence. For those who feel, instead, that what you see is what you get, determinism is at something of a low ebb when analysing lifestyles.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:57 am

I believe strongly in free will. But I also believe there are some things that are fated. One can avoid these landmark events for a long time but anyone who tries will find that their life is pushed harder and harder towards the fated event or thing until it finally happens. Outside of these major events I believe the rest is entirely up to us.

I don't believe either can be proved or disproved. But we can find individual examples from our lives and those around us. I'm with the Buddhists on it being an irrelevant matter of perception.