Eugenics: Good or Bad?

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:32 pm

With the decoding of the human genome, the control of humanity's DNA is just a decade or two away. It's already posible to determine the sex of your baby ahead of time.

Here's how it will start:

Doctor: "We have noticed, Ma'am, that your child has a gene that can activate and cause ALS later in life. Would you like us to correct that during your pregnancy?"

Woman: "Yes, please! Who wouldn't want to save thier child from such a horrible fate?"

Then it will progress to:

Doctor: "Miss, we can increase your child's IQ, to a higher level to make sure that they succeed in society, would you like us to do that?"

Woman: "Absolutely, Who wouldn't want their children to be intelligent and succesful?"

then it should progress to:

Doctor: "Miss? What color would you like your child's eyes to be? Do you want them to be beautiful or handsome? And how tall and muscular would you like them to be?"

Woman: "Blue. please! Oh, and let's go for as handsome as Brad Pitt and as strong as Arnold Schartznegger too. I'm having a son."

Give this trend a century or so and you get:

Doctor: "Well, since he will be assigned to an engineering job later on, let's make sure your son has an iron-based skeleton able to pick up two tons or so."

or:

Doctor: "We'll be giving your son wings and a hollow skeleton, to make it easier to work on Europa in the low gravity. They are very pretty, and much admired by the other classes of humans."

or:

Doctor: "Due to the assignment of your family to the sub-ocean city of Aquia, we are instilling gills, pressure valves in the circulatory system, and an anti-freeze-like protein in his bloodstream. Would you like the extra light-sensitive eyes? It costs a little extra, but it's worth it!"

You see where this is going, don't you? If we can control the make-up of ourselves, we can change ourselves. But if we change ourselves too much, are we stil ourselves?

No fair stating that this will never happen because God won't let it happen. At the turn of the century, the saying went, "If God meant man to fly, he would have given us wings!" Those people resisted change, but it came anyway. You see, God gave man something else...

the intelligence to make our own wings.

How do you feel about this?

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:53 pm

have you seen the movie Gattaca , jives? it takes on these questions in a very thought-provoking way. highly recommended.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:35 pm

I think science should continuosly march forward with any and all benign work they can. Of course keeping the military and rogue capitalist governments away from it. Gattaca was a good film. There are dangers in eugenics, but I say move forward with it full steam. Maybe one day we can get rid of conservatives before they are even born!

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:44 pm

can i be 26 again? PLEEEEEZE???

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:20 pm

anastrophe wrote: have you seen the movie Gattaca , jives? it takes on these questions in a very thought-provoking way. highly recommended.

Yes....I love / hate that show. I think the advances of genetically-enhanced humans can and will boggle the imagination. Can you imagine what a intelligence-enhaced Einstein could do? Unfortunately the tyranny of the idealistic perfectionists will surely rival anything Hitler ever concieved of.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:25 pm

lady cop wrote: can i be 26 again? PLEEEEEZE???

You got it, the research on RNA Enhancers is going on right now. The latest experiment shows that they can extend the lifespan in mice by a factor of three.

To you that means that you would be 210. (And no....you would only look 70. You would only age one year for every three lived.)

They work on a principle that helps the cell's DNA repair damage from background raditation and free radical molecules. It a way, these new drugs "repair" the missing pages of damaged DNA books, allowing the cell to make more perfect copies of itself through mitosis.

And yes, David, the rich will get it first.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:34 pm

Ooh. This stuff bothers me. I don't like it, it's a bad idea all around. We are playing "god" and the potential for us REALLY screwing something up in a horrific way is huge. There is a natural order to things, and we are messing with it, and it scares the bejesus out of me. Remember the old saying "Don't mess with mother nature"??? I wish these scientists would take that a TAD more seriously!!!! Freaky sh*t, man.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:43 pm

BabyRider wrote: Ooh. This stuff bothers me. I don't like it, it's a bad idea all around. We are playing "god" and the potential for us REALLY screwing something up in a horrific way is huge. There is a natural order to things, and we are messing with it, and it scares the bejesus out of me. Remember the old saying "Don't mess with mother nature"??? I wish these scientists would take that a TAD more seriously!!!! Freaky sh*t, man.
I understand your side of this issue too. There are scientists right now decoding the DNA of dinosaurs, mammoths and other extinct species. I really believe in the next 25 years we will have reanimated some long gone animal and be close to bringing back T-Rex. Don't laugh! National Geographic had an article in a recent issue about a T-Rex with "fresh blood." It was frozen and in remarkable shape. The scientists are working on it's DNA strand now. Sure it'd be great to bring back animals and plants that we as humans wiped out thru ignorance and recklessness. But some species were selected for extinction by Nature, for a reason. Let us hope we don't accidentally create a supervirus that wipes us all off the face of the Earth!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:51 pm

Oh great....re-animate the friggin' dinosaurs. What a brilliant plan. What Einstein came up with THAT one??? Sure, let's bring back the 2 or 3 ton, flesh rending killers with brains the size of walnuts. Next they'll be telling us we'll be able to domesticate the damn things and have them as pets. Oh yeah, the crack dealers in my neighborhood have just found their next pit-bull. Wonderful. geezus-h-tapp-dancin'-christ. And these are people that actually went to college. :-5

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:56 pm

BabyRider wrote: Oh great....re-animate the friggin' dinosaurs. What a brilliant plan. What Einstein came up with THAT one??? Sure, let's bring back the 2 or 3 ton, flesh rending killers with brains the size of walnuts. Next they'll be telling us we'll be able to domesticate the damn things and have them as pets. Oh yeah, the crack dealers in my neighborhood have just found their next pit-bull. Wonderful. geezus-h-tapp-dancin'-christ. And these are people that actually went to college. :-5
LOL!!! :wah:

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:00 pm

HEY...i loved jurassic park! i want velociraptors!!

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:09 pm

lady cop wrote: HEY...i loved jurassic park! i want velociraptors!!
Now those are some misunderstood beasts! Everyone thinks all dinos were dumb as a Texas conservative, not all of them. Jurassic Park repeats what experts in the field confirm; velociraptors were very smart pack hunters. With current technology it would take thousands of years to read the DNA of a prehistoric beast. But technology advances in leaps and bounds. Look at the world now and 100 years ago....

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:12 pm

i know, i know, i like them!

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:20 pm

lady cop wrote: i know, i know, i like them!
I can see you now LC; Black shift, red stilettos and two velociraptors on a gold chain, slinking down the boulevard!!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:24 pm

TW2005 wrote: Kinda reminds me of Cassie!!!Oh, totally!!! :yh_sigh :yh_cry

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:28 pm

TW2005 wrote: Kinda reminds me of Cassie!!!

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:08 pm

David813 wrote:

Actually, I have the same expression on my face now...TW2005, how do you know Cassie? I don't think you were here yet when she left.

Dave, Cassie was a member that left a while back. Great fun, nice person...I still miss her.

BabyRider · Post by **BabyRider** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:17 pm

TW2005 wrote: I was refering to Cassie, a great, well known Transgender! Not the former member Cassie.OK, now THAT'S funny!!! How well that description fit OUR Cassie, too! There was an ongoing joke about Cass and her high heels. What a scream. I can't wait till LC sees this!!! Thanks for the unintentional laugh, TW!! :yh_rotfl

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:24 pm

TW2005 wrote: Hey, No prob. That is a Co-ink-e-dink though.
OK. Now I get it, I think. I haven't heard of either Cassie but I'm laughing anyway!

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:40 pm

David813 wrote: I understand your side of this issue too. There are scientists right now decoding the DNA of dinosaurs, mammoths and other extinct species. I really believe in the next 25 years we will have reanimated some long gone animal and be close to bringing back T-Rex. Don't laugh! National Geographic had an article in a recent issue about a T-Rex with "fresh blood." It was frozen and in remarkable shape. The scientists are working on it's DNA strand now. Sure it'd be great to bring back animals and plants that we as humans wiped out thru ignorance and recklessness. But some species were selected for extinction by Nature, for a reason. Let us hope we don't accidentally create a supervirus that wipes us all off the face of the Earth!
i'm not sure if one can call an asteriod that happened to randomly hit the earth about a hundred million years ago as having anything remotely connected to "reason".

the dinosaurs are the true inheritors of planet earth. they roamed the planet for well more than a hundred million years. we've roamed the planet for 35,000 years.

What do we want? Sauropods!

When do we want them? Now!!

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:44 pm

anastrophe wrote: i'm not sure if one can call an asteriod that happened to randomly hit the earth about a hundred million years ago as having anything remotely connected to "reason".

the dinosaurs are the true inheritors of planet earth. they roamed the planet for well more than a hundred million years. we've roamed the planet for 35,000 years.

What do we want? Sauropods!

When do we want them? Now!!
And Nature fired that asteroid at us! I would like to see some extinct species revived, on the level of tropical birds and plants. Sorry! I don't think dinos should return unless they can be used to depopulate RedStates!

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:54 pm

David813 wrote: And Nature fired that asteroid at us!
yes, but again, i don't think nature 'sent' that asteriod with the purpose of killing off the dinosaurs. it was just a random event.

I would like to see some extinct species revived, on the level of tropical birds and plants. Sorry! I don't think dinos should return unless they can be used to depopulate RedStates!
actually, i hear tell that communists are particularly crunchy. the 'chex mix' of hairless bipeds.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:58 pm

anastrophe wrote: yes, but again, i don't think nature 'sent' that asteriod with the purpose of killing off the dinosaurs. it was just a random event.

actually, i hear tell that communists are particularly crunchy. the 'chex mix' of hairless bipeds.

Till Wednesday evening.........

lady cop · Post by **lady cop** » Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:46 am

David813 wrote: I can see you now LC; Black shift, red stilettos and two velociraptors on a gold chain, slinking down the boulevard!!damn, that's me working vice! i love it!

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:53 am

Just resubscribing!

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:38 pm

None of this is actually new, just the techology makes more possible.

In the thirties using eugenics to remove the weak from society was a very popular idea throughout the world. Hitler being one of th better known proponents but they were everywhere and it would be wrong to associate it only with nazism

http://www.waragainsttheweak.com/

One of the most successful programmes was actually carried out in Scandanavia particularly in the socialist paradise of Sweden.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucbtdag/bioethics ... enics.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/backg ... 290661.stm

Since the Swedish case came to light, it has been revealed that many other countries carried out sterilisation programmes, based on eugenics ideas linked to the Nazis.

They include Austria, France, Finland, Norway and Switzerland.

I feel it is a pandora's box and when somebody says give me the authority to do this and I will make things better I feel incredibly cynical and not very trustful. Better fo whom

posted by david 813

I think science should continuosly march forward with any and all benign work they can. Of course keeping the military and rogue capitalist governments away from it. Gattaca was a good film. There are dangers in eugenics, but I say move forward with it full steam. Maybe one day we can get rid of conservatives before they are even born!

Sometimes scientists need to very carefully watched.

For a nation that feels so strongly about issues like abortion how will they react to something like eugenics nowadays? Who gets to choose?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:51 am

posted by Clancy

This provoked un uproar within the church, he was threatened with excumunication , as the clegy cited with Old Testament claims that it was God's punishment to women for the sins of Eve was that they should bring forth children in pain.

James had to walk close to the wall , as it were (be guarded) Fortunately for everyone, then ,and up to modern times, James stood his ground and won his argument, and anaesthetic started to be used used in all hospitals for all operations.

Don't know the truth of it but one story is that Queen Victoria during childborth allegedly turned round and said that since men didn't have to give birth they were in no position to decide something like that and insisted on being anaesthetised during a caesarian thus ending the arguement.

Okie · Post by **Okie** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:01 am

Jives wrote: With the decoding of the human genome, the control of humanity's DNA is just a decade or two away. It's already posible to determine the sex of your baby ahead of time.

Here's how it will start:

Doctor: "We have noticed, Ma'am, that your child has a gene that can activate and cause ALS later in life. Would you like us to correct that during your pregnancy?"

Woman: "Yes, please! Who wouldn't want to save thier child from such a horrible fate?"

Then it will progress to:

Doctor: "Miss, we can increase your child's IQ, to a higher level to make sure that they succeed in society, would you like us to do that?"

Woman: "Absolutely, Who wouldn't want their children to be intelligent and succesful?"

then it should progress to:

Doctor: "Miss? What color would you like your child's eyes to be? Do you want them to be beautiful or handsome? And how tall and muscular would you like them to be?"

Woman: "Blue. please! Oh, and let's go for as handsome as Brad Pitt and as strong as Arnold Schartznegger too. I'm having a son."

Give this trend a century or so and you get:

Doctor: "Well, since he will be assigned to an engineering job later on, let's make sure your son has an iron-based skeleton able to pick up two tons or so."

or:

Doctor: "We'll be giving your son wings and a hollow skeleton, to make it easier to work on Europa in the low gravity. They are very pretty, and much admired by the other classes of humans."

or:

Doctor: "Due to the assignment of your family to the sub-ocean city of Aquia, we are instilling gills, pressure valves in the circulatory system, and an anti-freeze-like protein in his bloodstream. Would you like the extra light-sensitive eyes? It costs a little extra, but it's worth it!"

You see where this is going, don't you? If we can control the make-up of ourselves, we can change ourselves. But if we change ourselves too much, are we stil ourselves?

No fair stating that this will never happen because God won't let it happen. At the turn of the century, the saying went, "If God meant man to fly, he would have given us wings!" Those people resisted change, but it came anyway. You see, God gave man something else...

the intelligence to make our own wings.

How do you feel about this?

That is some nice thinking. But right now in the immediate future or maybe now, some people are letting other people know what your DNA makeup is right now. So as you know, insurance is sort of a gamble. You buy insurance betting you will need it and not really knowing if you will. The insurance companys take the bet and try to beat the odds. But if they can get inside info from a data base then they are ahead of the game. If you have genes that make you predisposed to cancer they are not going to insure you. Or if you have genes that say you will have a deteriorating spine they are not going to sell you health insurance. Your right to privacy ought to be guarded but they are trying to get that info into a database for all to read as public access.

Also an employer will not hire you if you have some sort of gene that will make you develop a bad back.

Those things you mention may happen. I certainly hope part of them do such as cystic fibrosis getting wiped out. I think we have to keep up the work in science and if we find good things use them.

Okie · Post by **Okie** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:03 am

David813 wrote: I think science should continuosly march forward with any and all benign work they can. Of course keeping the military and rogue capitalist governments away from it. Gattaca was a good film. There are dangers in eugenics, but I say move forward with it full steam. Maybe one day we can get rid of conservatives before they are even born!
That sounds too good to be true. I would contribute to that.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:42 pm

Okie wrote: That is some nice thinking. But right now in the immediate future or maybe now, some people are letting other people know what your DNA makeup is right now. So as you know, insurance is sort of a gamble. You buy insurance betting you will need it and not really knowing if you will. The insurance companys take the bet and try to beat the odds. But if they can get inside info from a data base then they are ahead of the game. If you have genes that make you predisposed to cancer they are not going to insure you. Or if you have genes that say you will have a deteriorating spine they are not going to sell you health insurance. Your right to privacy ought to be guarded but they are trying to get that info into a database for all to read as public access.

Also an employer will not hire you if you have some sort of gene that will make you develop a bad back.

Those things you mention may happen. I certainly hope part of them do such as cystic fibrosis getting wiped out. I think we have to keep up the work in science and if we find good things use them.

Outstanding post, Okie. I completely forgot about that. This is one of the reasons that I don't use my debit card to buy beer. For everyone here: Remember, when you check out electronically with a credit or debit card, a complete record is being kept by that company. They will sell that information to manufacturers who are busy building a profile of the kinds of people that buy their product. With that information they can effectively market their product.

If you believe for a second that other companies willnot also gain access to that information, you are incredibly naive. I just had a fight the other day with a checkout lady who tried to bully me into letting her swipe my driver's license while I was purchasing beer. I had to explain this whole scenario to her to get her to acquiesce.

When people require you to tell them you complete social security number or give them your license, remember that they are not officers of the law or the court and you have the right to ay "no".

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:58 pm

Jives wrote:

When people require you to tell them you complete social security number or give them your license, remember that they are not officers of the law or the court and you have the right to ay "no".

And they have the right to refuse you service. Many times I think it's worth walking away with your privacy.

Okie · Post by **Okie** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:21 pm

Jives wrote: Outstanding post, Okie. I completely forgot about that. This is one of the reasons that I don't use my debit card to buy beer. For everyone here: Remember, when you check out electronically with a credit or debit card, a complete record is being kept by that company. They will sell that information to manufacturers who are busy building a profile of the kinds of people that buy their product. With that information they can effectively market their product.

If you believe for a second that other companies willnot also gain access to that information, you are incredibly naive. I just had a fight the other day with a checkout lady who tried to bully me into letting her swipe my driver's license while I was purchasing beer. I had to explain this whole scenario to her to get her to acquiesce.

When people require you to tell them you complete social security number or give them your license, remember that they are not officers of the law or the court and you have the right to ay "no".

I didnt know about that but I did read about a guy who used a member card from a supermarket and something came up, I think he fell down in their parking lot and was suing them and they showed he bought a lot of beer so maybe he was drunk. A jury listens to all testimony and they decide. So it could hurt you.

I read of a doctor telling the poloice about a patiient who had told him he drinks a six pack a day. they took his license. He did get it back after getting a device installed in his car so it would not start until he blew in it and it was ok. I thought a doctor client relationship was secret. But if you go to a company dctor like I did, I think they have the right to get results of an injury like your back etc. And I know workmans comp is paid for by employer and they tell the emplyer how much permanent damage you have. I am sure that if a database is created employers will be able to see it. If you get an injury at some company then all companys are gonna know it.