helefra;551651 wrote: I couldn't have said that first paragraph any better than you did El. Unfortunately whenever a religion comes along that doesn't fit in with the rest of what everyone else is doing it is slammed as a "cult". As far as I am concerned, if a religion can change someone for the better, improve conditions for mankind then I would call it a saviour.
About 11 years ago I was involved in a Cult religion in the US, which left me in a very poor mental state for some time afterwards. However, I am still in contact with the people who 'ran' the site and will always wish them well. Whilst i don't think their motives were totally spiritual, I did learn a lot whilst I was there.
I do feel very strongly about people who verbally 'bash' others because of their religion. Why not take the time to find out why they believe what they do. You don't need to agree with them, but you will grow in understanding their perspective.
How can you disagree with what you don't understand?
Have We Gone Too Far?
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Have We Gone Too Far?
I think it's been established that it's uncool to pick on someone for their religion. That said, I think religion of any kind is something that should always be questioned in and of itself because of the brainwashing and danger factors posed by it. I won't name names but I am thinking of a religion that generally refuses medical care for its members. I am also thinking of "religions' that hurt and abuse animals and humans as sacrifice. You have to be careful with anything used to control one's thinking and religion is the granddaddy of all of it.
Have We Gone Too Far?
I had a very moving, and interesting spiritual encounter recently.
It was an amazing eye opener for me. I gave up my Catholic upbringing almost 40 years ago. I have privately and quietly held a very negative opinion of clergy associated with any organized religion. Quite by accident, recently, a monsigenor with the church joined my family for breakfast. There was an amazing spiritual light in this mans eyes. It didnt matter what religion he was. He had the ability to charge spiritual wires. I havent forgotten him.
The lesson was that I had eliminated the possibilitiy for learning and growing by being closed to hearing anything from anyone with beliefs different than mine. I gained new respect and I became personally more respectful that day.
It was an amazing eye opener for me. I gave up my Catholic upbringing almost 40 years ago. I have privately and quietly held a very negative opinion of clergy associated with any organized religion. Quite by accident, recently, a monsigenor with the church joined my family for breakfast. There was an amazing spiritual light in this mans eyes. It didnt matter what religion he was. He had the ability to charge spiritual wires. I havent forgotten him.
The lesson was that I had eliminated the possibilitiy for learning and growing by being closed to hearing anything from anyone with beliefs different than mine. I gained new respect and I became personally more respectful that day.
[FONT=Microsoft Sans Serif][/FONT]
Have We Gone Too Far?
Some very excellent posts with much wisdom.
A message to Clear. The actual wording is "The love of money is the root of all evil." It is not the money in and of itself but the fact that too many love or covet it.
Shalom
Ted:-6
A message to Clear. The actual wording is "The love of money is the root of all evil." It is not the money in and of itself but the fact that too many love or covet it.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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clearmind69
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:31 pm
Have We Gone Too Far?
RedGlitter;551657 wrote: I think it's been established that it's uncool to pick on someone for their religion. That said, I think religion of any kind is something that should always be questioned in and of itself because of the brainwashing and danger factors posed by it. I won't name names but I am thinking of a religion that generally refuses medical care for its members. I am also thinking of "religions' that hurt and abuse animals and humans as sacrifice. You have to be careful with anything used to control one's thinking and religion is the granddaddy of all of it.
Please forgive me as this message is long, yet to cut it short would leave out valuable parts and one would not get a truer picture. Thank you for your good patience..
It can be said the practise of Falun Gong has had its share of smearing. Im not too sure how well up on information people are, but Falun Gong has been under severe persecution in China since 1999. The reason we've come to understand this has happened, is due to the numbers in china practising FG outnumbered the members of Chinese Communist Party(CCP). The then leader Jiang Zemin became insanely jealous of this fact. He has always seen himself as an Emporor. Able to do as he pleases. So he outlawed FG. He believed he could crush the practise through violence within 3 months. People were sent to reform centres for brainwashing to have them sign statements of renounement.
If practitioners signed they would be released.If they didnt, they would be subjected to torture of indiscribable methods. Stories have always managed to reach the public so we are able to confirm these reports.Amnesty International have also made such reports and statements.
So when Jiang Zemin realised FG had greater strength than he'd first thought, he set up a huge campaign of propaganda. He used this method to bad mouth FG. He smeared its name to the people of China, eventually reaching far across the globe. He claimed it to be a cult, whose followers committed suicide. He and his little gang created a set up in Tiannamun sq where so called FG practitioers set light to themselves to claim they would then go to heaven.Yet when carefully viewed, all of these lies can be cleared up with the truth. There was a film of these would be practitioners setting light to themselves. FG practitioners have to protect the reputation of this practise. Principles such as we cannot take life or kill, even small creatures. So committing suicide is such a big no no. I ve realised that once you know something is wrong, if you then do it, the crime or sin is even greater. Its actually been said that those people setting light to themselves were actors and criminals. There were fire extinguishers on the scene in seconds,plus an ambulance. An ambulance is usually 20 minuites away.
The slander and fabled truths have become the smoke screen which hides the real true reason, which is persecution.
Many practitioners have been tortured to death because they follow Truthfulness,Compassion,Tolerance. They have never done bad things only good. Yet still this persecution continues.
In the quote above I could see even as far as a small town in Arizona, some untruths have reached. Im sure Red Glitter was refering to FG. But its ok to name names as then the truth can clear up the false. There is never anything to fear, more so when one is truthful.
The issue of its practitioners not taking medicine. Please let me explain.
FG is a form of Qi-Gong. There were many forms in China being spread in recent years. They all promote good health and healing. Millions practise in the parks in China and many receive good health and some do get their illnesses healed. Once the practise FG became more well known,more and more people came over to it. The difference between FG and other qigong was the teachings. FG has very good and at times profound inner meaning(teachings). People who found it were happy. As they continued they started to unravel mysteries which have other wise deluded then. This then brings the issue of experience is telling. When one experiences such immense changes and good energy, one surely knows this is right.
To me with my understanding, the teachings are there. If you wish to follow them then follow them. If one doesnt agree , then they dont follow. There is no one saying absurd things to lure people in. Everything is upon ones own decision.
FG can certainly give way to better health and healing. Ive experienced it. I had many ailments before I started, which have dissappeared. Things like Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Chronic Bronchitis atleast twice a year, slipped disc problems,popped rib..all very painful and uncomfortable in their own way.
Within the teachings the teacher is very explicit. He says, " if you have an illness then go to the hospital immediately. We dont do healing here.
Yet some people came to the practise to have their illnesses healed.They chose not to take medicine and some became ill. They infact did not follow the correct way nor listen to the warnings.
Millions are reaping the rewards of good health,they came to realise the principle,to practise without intent(wuiwei). We seek nothing yet gain what we are meant to.
Higher principles require higher actions. Faith and belief play a big part yet science cannot explain these things. Some people have passed away.That was their course of life. Should FG be blamed for people dying? Yet the numbers of good health far outweigh those of sickness or death.
I guess it comes down to understanding or ones comprehension on these issues.
Nothing is forced. If one can let go of something,then that something no longer has an effect.Ive seen this in the people around me and in myself.
I say, how strong is ones faith? Can one let go of life and death when the critical times come? How strong is our belief in God or Buddha or ourselves and lifes inner meanings?
Because something is outside ones idealistic or materialistic understanding, does this then make it false or brainwashed or a cult.
When all is said and done FG has brought much happiness to millions across the globe. It is by far not a cult. A cult misleads people, controls its followers, thinks for the people and instills its doctorines into the very makeup of a person. They go deep routed.
In fact, the way the CCP controls,lies,misleads and hurts its own, I think this party is a cult. Within its 60 years of power, an estimated 80 million have been murdered. The Cultural Revolution denounced all ancient traditional culture in China. 5000 years of great moral history over turned in 60 years. They renounced Buddha, God and many true religions faced their iron fist.
Tibetans have suffered immensely. Monks were portrayed as insane and ridiculed through the streets in front of crowds of people. Ancient temples desicrated and ruined. Great teachings in books burned. History so called rewritten.
Yet I know history keeps a record.Once these guys are done with their evil revolution, there will be retribution.
China lived in harmony on good principles. The will of Heaven was follwed by all,even the Emperors whom some say were at different periods of Dynasties, were harsh. Yet even they vowed to follow the Heavenly mandate. If they made mistakes they would openly declare it. This CCP wishes to over turn Heaven as they dont believe in retribution.
Christianity faced tough persecution from Nero and his Romans, Buddha faced tough times with other religions, and then Christ whom we all know suffered horribly. Any true and great teacher or its disciples, face this evil test.
Im not saying the teacher is Buddha or Christ, but he is a real good man with high wisdom. He knows of 'course and effect' and would never harm anyone. Knowing of Karmic retribution he's certainly not likely to bring anything bad upon himself, nor those who follow this practise.
I think its time we put a stop to such evil. Negate this tribulation delivered every time someone comes with good things. Spreading peace and love. Is this the future we wish to leave as a reference? I for one will stand up to evil in our world.
I dont think this makes me political or fanatical or brainwashed. When one follows something true which teaches nothing but goodness and how to make good of our actions,follows higher principles which inevitably bring us to higher truths, I have the hope that people of this world will start to see outside their materialistic minds and realise God does exist,spirit does exist, and truth does exist.
If people wish to persecute us to death due to our finding our true faith, then death it does become for some. Christ made the greatest of sacrifices for truth, as did his followers who were thrown to the lions for sport. Was he deemed a fanatic or a true man.
People with ulterior motives call out blasphem,when in fact to deny the truth and shout blaspheme to those who do stand up for truth..thats blaspheme.
Thanks for being so patient. This was long. Things need to be revealed at times other wise misunderstandings become the influence. FG and its practitioners are responsible to themselves and society. They will never bring disrepute or harm to any living sentient being.
Thanks once again.
:-6 :-6 :-6 :-6
Please forgive me as this message is long, yet to cut it short would leave out valuable parts and one would not get a truer picture. Thank you for your good patience..
It can be said the practise of Falun Gong has had its share of smearing. Im not too sure how well up on information people are, but Falun Gong has been under severe persecution in China since 1999. The reason we've come to understand this has happened, is due to the numbers in china practising FG outnumbered the members of Chinese Communist Party(CCP). The then leader Jiang Zemin became insanely jealous of this fact. He has always seen himself as an Emporor. Able to do as he pleases. So he outlawed FG. He believed he could crush the practise through violence within 3 months. People were sent to reform centres for brainwashing to have them sign statements of renounement.
If practitioners signed they would be released.If they didnt, they would be subjected to torture of indiscribable methods. Stories have always managed to reach the public so we are able to confirm these reports.Amnesty International have also made such reports and statements.
So when Jiang Zemin realised FG had greater strength than he'd first thought, he set up a huge campaign of propaganda. He used this method to bad mouth FG. He smeared its name to the people of China, eventually reaching far across the globe. He claimed it to be a cult, whose followers committed suicide. He and his little gang created a set up in Tiannamun sq where so called FG practitioers set light to themselves to claim they would then go to heaven.Yet when carefully viewed, all of these lies can be cleared up with the truth. There was a film of these would be practitioners setting light to themselves. FG practitioners have to protect the reputation of this practise. Principles such as we cannot take life or kill, even small creatures. So committing suicide is such a big no no. I ve realised that once you know something is wrong, if you then do it, the crime or sin is even greater. Its actually been said that those people setting light to themselves were actors and criminals. There were fire extinguishers on the scene in seconds,plus an ambulance. An ambulance is usually 20 minuites away.
The slander and fabled truths have become the smoke screen which hides the real true reason, which is persecution.
Many practitioners have been tortured to death because they follow Truthfulness,Compassion,Tolerance. They have never done bad things only good. Yet still this persecution continues.
In the quote above I could see even as far as a small town in Arizona, some untruths have reached. Im sure Red Glitter was refering to FG. But its ok to name names as then the truth can clear up the false. There is never anything to fear, more so when one is truthful.
The issue of its practitioners not taking medicine. Please let me explain.
FG is a form of Qi-Gong. There were many forms in China being spread in recent years. They all promote good health and healing. Millions practise in the parks in China and many receive good health and some do get their illnesses healed. Once the practise FG became more well known,more and more people came over to it. The difference between FG and other qigong was the teachings. FG has very good and at times profound inner meaning(teachings). People who found it were happy. As they continued they started to unravel mysteries which have other wise deluded then. This then brings the issue of experience is telling. When one experiences such immense changes and good energy, one surely knows this is right.
To me with my understanding, the teachings are there. If you wish to follow them then follow them. If one doesnt agree , then they dont follow. There is no one saying absurd things to lure people in. Everything is upon ones own decision.
FG can certainly give way to better health and healing. Ive experienced it. I had many ailments before I started, which have dissappeared. Things like Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Chronic Bronchitis atleast twice a year, slipped disc problems,popped rib..all very painful and uncomfortable in their own way.
Within the teachings the teacher is very explicit. He says, " if you have an illness then go to the hospital immediately. We dont do healing here.
Yet some people came to the practise to have their illnesses healed.They chose not to take medicine and some became ill. They infact did not follow the correct way nor listen to the warnings.
Millions are reaping the rewards of good health,they came to realise the principle,to practise without intent(wuiwei). We seek nothing yet gain what we are meant to.
Higher principles require higher actions. Faith and belief play a big part yet science cannot explain these things. Some people have passed away.That was their course of life. Should FG be blamed for people dying? Yet the numbers of good health far outweigh those of sickness or death.
I guess it comes down to understanding or ones comprehension on these issues.
Nothing is forced. If one can let go of something,then that something no longer has an effect.Ive seen this in the people around me and in myself.
I say, how strong is ones faith? Can one let go of life and death when the critical times come? How strong is our belief in God or Buddha or ourselves and lifes inner meanings?
Because something is outside ones idealistic or materialistic understanding, does this then make it false or brainwashed or a cult.
When all is said and done FG has brought much happiness to millions across the globe. It is by far not a cult. A cult misleads people, controls its followers, thinks for the people and instills its doctorines into the very makeup of a person. They go deep routed.
In fact, the way the CCP controls,lies,misleads and hurts its own, I think this party is a cult. Within its 60 years of power, an estimated 80 million have been murdered. The Cultural Revolution denounced all ancient traditional culture in China. 5000 years of great moral history over turned in 60 years. They renounced Buddha, God and many true religions faced their iron fist.
Tibetans have suffered immensely. Monks were portrayed as insane and ridiculed through the streets in front of crowds of people. Ancient temples desicrated and ruined. Great teachings in books burned. History so called rewritten.
Yet I know history keeps a record.Once these guys are done with their evil revolution, there will be retribution.
China lived in harmony on good principles. The will of Heaven was follwed by all,even the Emperors whom some say were at different periods of Dynasties, were harsh. Yet even they vowed to follow the Heavenly mandate. If they made mistakes they would openly declare it. This CCP wishes to over turn Heaven as they dont believe in retribution.
Christianity faced tough persecution from Nero and his Romans, Buddha faced tough times with other religions, and then Christ whom we all know suffered horribly. Any true and great teacher or its disciples, face this evil test.
Im not saying the teacher is Buddha or Christ, but he is a real good man with high wisdom. He knows of 'course and effect' and would never harm anyone. Knowing of Karmic retribution he's certainly not likely to bring anything bad upon himself, nor those who follow this practise.
I think its time we put a stop to such evil. Negate this tribulation delivered every time someone comes with good things. Spreading peace and love. Is this the future we wish to leave as a reference? I for one will stand up to evil in our world.
I dont think this makes me political or fanatical or brainwashed. When one follows something true which teaches nothing but goodness and how to make good of our actions,follows higher principles which inevitably bring us to higher truths, I have the hope that people of this world will start to see outside their materialistic minds and realise God does exist,spirit does exist, and truth does exist.
If people wish to persecute us to death due to our finding our true faith, then death it does become for some. Christ made the greatest of sacrifices for truth, as did his followers who were thrown to the lions for sport. Was he deemed a fanatic or a true man.
People with ulterior motives call out blasphem,when in fact to deny the truth and shout blaspheme to those who do stand up for truth..thats blaspheme.
Thanks for being so patient. This was long. Things need to be revealed at times other wise misunderstandings become the influence. FG and its practitioners are responsible to themselves and society. They will never bring disrepute or harm to any living sentient being.
Thanks once again.
:-6 :-6 :-6 :-6
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Uncle Kram
- Posts: 5991
- Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:34 pm
Have We Gone Too Far?
I'm an Atheist and my best mate is a Jehovahs Witness. After a few attempts at converting me 20 years ago which I told him were futile, we agreed to disagree and respect each other as people. It has not affected our enduring relationship at all. I have attended several family events at his Kingdom Hall out of RESPECT for him and his family. All I ask in return is that people respect my views. For me, religion is a man-made control concept, but I'm not looking to convert anyone. Everyone's got their own brain, they might as well use it.
THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN PUN
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Have We Gone Too Far?
clearmind69;552601 wrote:
In the quote above I could see even as far as a small town in Arizona, some untruths have reached. Im sure Red Glitter was refering to FG. But its ok to name names as then the truth can clear up the false. There is never anything to fear, more so when one is truthful.
Hi Clearmind,
Actually no, I wasn't referring to FG at all. I don't know anything about FG and wasn't aware of it until you had told us of it.
I had thought about being specific in my post but seeing how the thread had gone, decided it would be much more prudent not to. Many religions have good points to them. It is the ones who do their congregations' thinking and living for them that I have a problem with. The religion I had in mind that regularly denies medical care for its followers, in my opinion creates more harm than good. Religions that call for the sacrifice of animals to benefit some god or gods is not respectable to me. This is what I had in mind inmy previous post. That untruths may have reached my small desert town is certainly true but there are some facts that cannot be attributed to opinion or misunderstanding or even intolerance. :-6
In the quote above I could see even as far as a small town in Arizona, some untruths have reached. Im sure Red Glitter was refering to FG. But its ok to name names as then the truth can clear up the false. There is never anything to fear, more so when one is truthful.
Hi Clearmind,
Actually no, I wasn't referring to FG at all. I don't know anything about FG and wasn't aware of it until you had told us of it.
I had thought about being specific in my post but seeing how the thread had gone, decided it would be much more prudent not to. Many religions have good points to them. It is the ones who do their congregations' thinking and living for them that I have a problem with. The religion I had in mind that regularly denies medical care for its followers, in my opinion creates more harm than good. Religions that call for the sacrifice of animals to benefit some god or gods is not respectable to me. This is what I had in mind inmy previous post. That untruths may have reached my small desert town is certainly true but there are some facts that cannot be attributed to opinion or misunderstanding or even intolerance. :-6-
clearmind69
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:31 pm
Have We Gone Too Far?
Hi Redglitter,
My apolagys for jumping to conclusions. Perhaps a little sensitive on my part. Im just so used to the harsh lies coming from China that it leads to a little paranoia I guess. Sorry for that.
It gave me a good chance to clarify things to many here though. Its an event which should be spoken of I think. By telling people about this persecution,it has had the effect of suppressing it in China. It is very much done behind the scenes now, whereas before it was displayed openly.
I also didnt mean anything disrespectful to your living in a small town in Arizona. I sometimes wish I could live near the desert. Away from the mayhem and sometimes chaotic ways here in the UK.
I fully agree on the part you mention about those who sacrifice animals. It is quite bad and I think they're nothing like a true practise or religion. Theres no kindness in murder. I think the Mayan culture went the same way.
Its all rather dark and bad for my taste and can only lead to bad consequences.
Best wishes
Clearmind
:-6 :-6 :-6 :-6
My apolagys for jumping to conclusions. Perhaps a little sensitive on my part. Im just so used to the harsh lies coming from China that it leads to a little paranoia I guess. Sorry for that.
It gave me a good chance to clarify things to many here though. Its an event which should be spoken of I think. By telling people about this persecution,it has had the effect of suppressing it in China. It is very much done behind the scenes now, whereas before it was displayed openly.
I also didnt mean anything disrespectful to your living in a small town in Arizona. I sometimes wish I could live near the desert. Away from the mayhem and sometimes chaotic ways here in the UK.
I fully agree on the part you mention about those who sacrifice animals. It is quite bad and I think they're nothing like a true practise or religion. Theres no kindness in murder. I think the Mayan culture went the same way.
Its all rather dark and bad for my taste and can only lead to bad consequences.
Best wishes
Clearmind
:-6 :-6 :-6 :-6
Have We Gone Too Far?
helefra;555114 wrote:
I, too, have seen the help my religion has given to many. Let's take those who leave school illiterate, those who are on drugs and want to withdraw from drugs, those who want to live a more ethical life and so on. I have witnessed the help that my religion has given to those who have then gone on to live a better life.
Helefra, would the same help not be given in any community gathering (church)?
I, too, have seen the help my religion has given to many. Let's take those who leave school illiterate, those who are on drugs and want to withdraw from drugs, those who want to live a more ethical life and so on. I have witnessed the help that my religion has given to those who have then gone on to live a better life.
Helefra, would the same help not be given in any community gathering (church)?
I am nobody..nobody is perfect...therefore I must be Perfect!
Have We Gone Too Far?
helefra;555623 wrote: True Suzy, I will PM you on this and that way you may have some understanding.
Okay
Okay
I am nobody..nobody is perfect...therefore I must be Perfect!
Have We Gone Too Far?
Clear:-6
An excellent post. Lengthy? Yes. Informative? Very.
I am a Christian pluralist and as such it was interesting to hear about FG. Yes, I do think it contains much wisdom.
Shalom
Ted:-6
An excellent post. Lengthy? Yes. Informative? Very.
I am a Christian pluralist and as such it was interesting to hear about FG. Yes, I do think it contains much wisdom.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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clearmind69
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:31 pm
Have We Gone Too Far?
Hi everyone,
Very sorry I have been away. My computer crashed very heavily not long after my last post. It has taken ages to rectify and get back on line. But here we are.
I appreciate the kind words from you guys. Support and understanding is always nice to receive. When different religions or like minded folk pull together it creates a bond. One which no lesser evil might break.
Tests of faith come and go yet help build our character. When good people lend their support, this in itself is a kind act and one of selflessness.
Thanks again.
Helefra,I noticed you asked for a link to our practise. This one is good. It provides a worldwide link covering many areas. Happy researching my good friend.
www.clearwsdom.net
also the uks website;
www.clearharmony.net
For classes there is a contact number; 0208 699 2066
Kind regards
:-6 :-6 :-6 :-6
Very sorry I have been away. My computer crashed very heavily not long after my last post. It has taken ages to rectify and get back on line. But here we are.
I appreciate the kind words from you guys. Support and understanding is always nice to receive. When different religions or like minded folk pull together it creates a bond. One which no lesser evil might break.
Tests of faith come and go yet help build our character. When good people lend their support, this in itself is a kind act and one of selflessness.
Thanks again.
Helefra,I noticed you asked for a link to our practise. This one is good. It provides a worldwide link covering many areas. Happy researching my good friend.
www.clearwsdom.net
also the uks website;
www.clearharmony.net
For classes there is a contact number; 0208 699 2066
Kind regards
:-6 :-6 :-6 :-6