Another Question for Galbally
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Another Question for Galbally
Does spontaneous human combustion actually exist? Can it be explained by science or it is just some kind of freak thing? I've always found it a really fascinating and grim subject but up until now have not known any people who could give me a scientific view of it. Thank you!!
Another Question for Galbally
Thank you for making me the science spokesman red, I do really enjoy talking about issues that you can use science to discuss, its fun. Though I have to include the get-out clause that I am not an expert on a lot of science things, mostly chemistry and physics are what I would have an idea on, and a little biology, but don't stop asking.
Anyway, spontaneous human combustion. Well as far as I am aware, it is true, and it happens, though thankfully relatively rarely, but there are a couple of documented cases about every decade, and in terms of understanding what it is, or why it happens, there aren't any complete answers, its just generally believed that the potential chemical energy in our body tissues for some reason just starts to be unleashed (the reason why this would happen is baffling), and the result is that people self-combust at terrific temperatures in a very localized fire, with devastating results. Its certainly one of the most mystifying of all events, and as far as I am aware no complete or proven explanation for it exists.
Anyway, spontaneous human combustion. Well as far as I am aware, it is true, and it happens, though thankfully relatively rarely, but there are a couple of documented cases about every decade, and in terms of understanding what it is, or why it happens, there aren't any complete answers, its just generally believed that the potential chemical energy in our body tissues for some reason just starts to be unleashed (the reason why this would happen is baffling), and the result is that people self-combust at terrific temperatures in a very localized fire, with devastating results. Its certainly one of the most mystifying of all events, and as far as I am aware no complete or proven explanation for it exists.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Another Question for Galbally
I remember watching a programme a couple of years ago about this, it was called the wick effect.
Wick effect
The human body is mostly water and its only properties which burn readily are fat tissue and methane gas, so the possibilities of SHC appear remote. But supporters of the theory have offered alcoholism, divine intervention, obesity and static electricity as explanations.
In 1998 the BBC programme QED investigated and used a dead pig to try and present a scientific explanation called the "wick effect".
The clothes are the wick and the fat surrounding a person is the fuel source which burns slowly, like a candle, for five to 10 hours.
This theory can account for the state of the remains but it does not explain the absence of any initial flame or accelerant, both of which were required for the experiment on the pig. To compound the mystery, many of the victims in the alleged cases did not try and escape and remained seated throughout.
But Home Office pathologist Professor Michael Green thought the SHC theory had been debunked. "The way the body burns - the so-called wick effect - seems to me and to my colleagues to be the most scientifically credible hypothesis," he said.
Wick effect
The human body is mostly water and its only properties which burn readily are fat tissue and methane gas, so the possibilities of SHC appear remote. But supporters of the theory have offered alcoholism, divine intervention, obesity and static electricity as explanations.
In 1998 the BBC programme QED investigated and used a dead pig to try and present a scientific explanation called the "wick effect".
The clothes are the wick and the fat surrounding a person is the fuel source which burns slowly, like a candle, for five to 10 hours.
This theory can account for the state of the remains but it does not explain the absence of any initial flame or accelerant, both of which were required for the experiment on the pig. To compound the mystery, many of the victims in the alleged cases did not try and escape and remained seated throughout.
But Home Office pathologist Professor Michael Green thought the SHC theory had been debunked. "The way the body burns - the so-called wick effect - seems to me and to my colleagues to be the most scientifically credible hypothesis," he said.
Another Question for Galbally
abbey;555050 wrote: I remember watching a programme a couple of years ago about this, it was called the wick effect.
Wick effect
The human body is mostly water and its only properties which burn readily are fat tissue and methane gas, so the possibilities of SHC appear remote. But supporters of the theory have offered alcoholism, divine intervention, obesity and static electricity as explanations.
In 1998 the BBC programme QED investigated and used a dead pig to try and present a scientific explanation called the "wick effect".
The clothes are the wick and the fat surrounding a person is the fuel source which burns slowly, like a candle, for five to 10 hours.
This theory can account for the state of the remains but it does not explain the absence of any initial flame or accelerant, both of which were required for the experiment on the pig. To compound the mystery, many of the victims in the alleged cases did not try and escape and remained seated throughout.
But Home Office pathologist Professor Michael Green thought the SHC theory had been debunked. "The way the body burns - the so-called wick effect - seems to me and to my colleagues to be the most scientifically credible hypothesis," he said.
Yeah, I remember seeing something about that as well, but there is something about that hypothesis that smacks of clutching at straws because it doesn't fit all the evidence, such as the very very high temperatures, the localized nature of the burning despite these high temperatures, and the fact that from the way the victims remains are situated it always seems that it happened very quickly while they were semi- or unconscious as they do not seem to move once it occurs. Again, the mystery only deepens if you ask me. I don't believe for one second its divine intervention as there are far more deserving candidates for divine wrath than the poor joe soaps that this seems to happen to. And also it seems a bit selective for god or the devil to intervene so directly here, but do nothing else, ever. But I also don't go for the wick effect thing either, I would say its some form of exotic combustion that we don't fully understand.
Wick effect
The human body is mostly water and its only properties which burn readily are fat tissue and methane gas, so the possibilities of SHC appear remote. But supporters of the theory have offered alcoholism, divine intervention, obesity and static electricity as explanations.
In 1998 the BBC programme QED investigated and used a dead pig to try and present a scientific explanation called the "wick effect".
The clothes are the wick and the fat surrounding a person is the fuel source which burns slowly, like a candle, for five to 10 hours.
This theory can account for the state of the remains but it does not explain the absence of any initial flame or accelerant, both of which were required for the experiment on the pig. To compound the mystery, many of the victims in the alleged cases did not try and escape and remained seated throughout.
But Home Office pathologist Professor Michael Green thought the SHC theory had been debunked. "The way the body burns - the so-called wick effect - seems to me and to my colleagues to be the most scientifically credible hypothesis," he said.
Yeah, I remember seeing something about that as well, but there is something about that hypothesis that smacks of clutching at straws because it doesn't fit all the evidence, such as the very very high temperatures, the localized nature of the burning despite these high temperatures, and the fact that from the way the victims remains are situated it always seems that it happened very quickly while they were semi- or unconscious as they do not seem to move once it occurs. Again, the mystery only deepens if you ask me. I don't believe for one second its divine intervention as there are far more deserving candidates for divine wrath than the poor joe soaps that this seems to happen to. And also it seems a bit selective for god or the devil to intervene so directly here, but do nothing else, ever. But I also don't go for the wick effect thing either, I would say its some form of exotic combustion that we don't fully understand.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Another Question for Galbally
dr g ,something i've allways wondered,what happens to the matter sucked up into a black hole, does it just stay there or does it go into another universe . or what ????,my smilleys are not working so i'm pulling a confused face
Another Question for Galbally
jimbo;555057 wrote: dr g ,something i've allways wondered,what happens to the matter sucked up into a black hole, does it just stay there or does it go into another universe . or what ????,my smilleys are not working so i'm pulling a confused face
Big question, have to walk the dog, will get back to you in a while on that one! :-6
Big question, have to walk the dog, will get back to you in a while on that one! :-6
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Another Question for Galbally
almostfamous;555082 wrote: After being at work for 27 hours so far, I'm pretty sure I'm getting close to this combustion in question :-5 :-5
Steady woman, no self-immolation now, it would be counter productive. BTW making you work for 27 hours in a row is criminal, if thats what passes for equitable labour practice in your state, that sucks. Hope you are alight dears.
Jimbo, will be with you shortly on the black hole issues.
Steady woman, no self-immolation now, it would be counter productive. BTW making you work for 27 hours in a row is criminal, if thats what passes for equitable labour practice in your state, that sucks. Hope you are alight dears.
Jimbo, will be with you shortly on the black hole issues.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Another Question for Galbally
Galbally, thank you for being so willing to help us out with this stuff. :-6
I always enjoy reading your posts about scientific issues (and other issues!) because you put things into language and perspective that I am able to understand.
I always enjoy reading your posts about scientific issues (and other issues!) because you put things into language and perspective that I am able to understand.
Another Question for Galbally
jesse b;555084 wrote: what tenp should guinness be served at
Colder than room temperature, but not too cold, I must also think about this, as its also important. We are very serious about Guinness in Ireland, I will get back to you on that one.
Colder than room temperature, but not too cold, I must also think about this, as its also important. We are very serious about Guinness in Ireland, I will get back to you on that one.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Another Question for Galbally
RedGlitter;555085 wrote: Galbally, thank you for being so willing to help us out with this stuff. :-6
I always enjoy reading your posts about scientific issues (and other issues!) because you put things into language and perspective that I am able to understand.
Thank you RG, I do my best, until I fail. But its fun and interesting.
I always enjoy reading your posts about scientific issues (and other issues!) because you put things into language and perspective that I am able to understand.
Thank you RG, I do my best, until I fail. But its fun and interesting.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Another Question for Galbally
Diuretic;555066 wrote: Of course I'd suggest it's murder, using the spontaneous human combustion idea as an excuse.
No they have thought about that one, in cases where bodies are burnt to disguise a murder its almost always pretty immediately obvious what has happened, as there is some kind of accelerant used, there is evidence of human action and intervention, and the pattern of these fires matches a type, however, these more hard Human Spontaneous Combustion cases show none of that, and are a genuine mystery to my mind.
No they have thought about that one, in cases where bodies are burnt to disguise a murder its almost always pretty immediately obvious what has happened, as there is some kind of accelerant used, there is evidence of human action and intervention, and the pattern of these fires matches a type, however, these more hard Human Spontaneous Combustion cases show none of that, and are a genuine mystery to my mind.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Another Question for Galbally
Diuretic;555103 wrote: I can't accept it, but that's just a personal view, not wanting to be combative.
Oh thats alright, its not like I have the definitive word on any of this, debate away. I am not ascribing anything supernatural to combustion, just something quite exotic and strange, it can happen you know, the universe is a strange place sometimes.
Oh thats alright, its not like I have the definitive word on any of this, debate away. I am not ascribing anything supernatural to combustion, just something quite exotic and strange, it can happen you know, the universe is a strange place sometimes.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Another Question for Galbally
I don't know Red Glitter, but I think you have terrified everyone, in them thinking they could spontaneously - burst into flames!
Another Question for Galbally
Galbally;555052 wrote: Yeah, I remember seeing something about that as well, but there is something about that hypothesis that smacks of clutching at straws because it doesn't fit all the evidence, such as the very very high temperatures, the localized nature of the burning despite these high temperatures, and the fact that from the way the victims remains are situated it always seems that it happened very quickly while they were semi- or unconscious as they do not seem to move once it occurs. Again, the mystery only deepens if you ask me. I don't believe for one second its divine intervention as there are far more deserving candidates for divine wrath than the poor joe soaps that this seems to happen to. And also it seems a bit selective for god or the devil to intervene so directly here, but do nothing else, ever. But I also don't go for the wick effect thing either, I would say its some form of exotic combustion that we don't fully understand.
I'm not sure that very high temperature is required, and certainly not ultra-quick burning.
Take a large person sitting in front of the fire finishing off the bottle of gin. When in deep sleep the fire spits out a cinder (or the cigarette drops on his jumper). A slow smouldering of the fabric starts the wicking effect whilst the fumes (both from the gin and the burning jumper) keep the poor sod unconscious until it's too late.
Like a candle, it's very localised and relatively cool but will produce the pattern of burning (concentrated around the fatty areas of the body) seen in cases of SHC.
The wicking effect has been demonstrated using pig cadavers - the one doubt has to be whether anyone would go into such a deep sleep (unconscoius) as to not wake up until too late.
Given the rarity of the event I'd say it could happen as a 1:1000 probability (for every 1000 times the circumstances are favourable and the spark occurs, 999 time the victim wake up and stops the cycle).
a possibility?
I'm not sure that very high temperature is required, and certainly not ultra-quick burning.
Take a large person sitting in front of the fire finishing off the bottle of gin. When in deep sleep the fire spits out a cinder (or the cigarette drops on his jumper). A slow smouldering of the fabric starts the wicking effect whilst the fumes (both from the gin and the burning jumper) keep the poor sod unconscious until it's too late.
Like a candle, it's very localised and relatively cool but will produce the pattern of burning (concentrated around the fatty areas of the body) seen in cases of SHC.
The wicking effect has been demonstrated using pig cadavers - the one doubt has to be whether anyone would go into such a deep sleep (unconscoius) as to not wake up until too late.
Given the rarity of the event I'd say it could happen as a 1:1000 probability (for every 1000 times the circumstances are favourable and the spark occurs, 999 time the victim wake up and stops the cycle).
a possibility?