Do You Trust Your Government??

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue May 08, 2007 8:57 am

YZGI and I started this discussion here: http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... post608882

about why some people (like me) consider the government to be... well...basically Satan! :wah:

YZGI asks when did people stop trusting their government and why?

When and why did they start to be seen as the enemy instead of an ally?

Is there a country anywhere that trusts its government?

Do YOU have faith in it?

crazygal · Post by **crazygal** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:02 am

Not at all, it's full of sh!t, especially Blair. Turned this country into one I ain't proud of.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:23 am

I think everyone is a lot more skeptical (for lack of a better word) of their respective Gov.'s than at any time in the near past. If nearly all people have no trust or respect for their Gov's then how do they sustain themselves and why are they allowed. It's a big question and I think it would be interseting to hear everyones view.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:54 am

YZGI

Do you really trust the Government?

I say love your Country - Do what you can to contribute - you can't trust the Government.

Patsy

Sweet Tooth · Post by **Sweet Tooth** » Tue May 08, 2007 10:03 am

I trust the government, maybe not all the time, but they are the leaders that God has placed here for us, and I trust God, so.... yes, I trust the government

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue May 08, 2007 10:07 am

Patsy Warnick;608988 wrote: YZGI

Do you really trust the Government?

I saw love your Country - Do what you can to contribute - you can't trust the Government.

Patsy

Trust? No I cant give them total trust. I will give them some respect for knowing more about the workings of the world than the average person.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue May 08, 2007 10:32 am

Sweet Tooth;608995 wrote: I trust the government, maybe not all the time, but they are the leaders that God has placed here for us, and I trust God, so.... yes, I trust the government

I can't believe you actually believe that. God didn't elect your government you did.

The divine right of kings or any other ruler went out of fashion centuries ago. Millions died opposing the very idea. For an American to believe that (if you really do) is rather shocking. Even the monarch you fought against wouldn't have dared claim a divine right to rule. The last one that did got his head chopped off.

To quote Oliver Cromwell

Put your trust in God; but be sure to keep your powder dry.

Interesting you all talk about your government as if it had nothing to do with you and you are helpless against them. You live in a free country for goodness sake, you voted them in to office you can vote them out. You should be telling them what you want.

I can't stand Tony Blair and heartily agree with crazygal. The B(TYYD is on his way out and I suspect Labour is about to get a lesson on why they should not ignore the electorate, they certainly did in the scottish elections. . Who knows maybe some electoral reform as well to stop the maggies and tony's of the UK political scene.

I can just see it twenty years from now as a question in a history exam. "Tony Blairs' leadership of the labour party saw it's demise as a viable political force. Discuss the reasons for this"

Sweet Tooth · Post by **Sweet Tooth** » Tue May 08, 2007 10:40 am

I think its very harsh of you to say things like that. As a Bible believing Christian, I think that God is in control ov everything. And yes, I vote for who I want in there, but ultimatly, God is choosing! Please don't offend me again by being so ignorant as to others beliefs. They asked, i told!

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue May 08, 2007 10:45 am

Sweet Tooth;609031 wrote: I think its very harsh of you to say things like that. As a Bible believing Christian, I think that God is in control ov everything. And yes, I vote for who I want in there, but ultimatly, God is choosing! Please don't offend me again by being so ignorant as to others beliefs. They asked, i told!
No offense Sweet, but do you not believe in free will at all? If we have no freedom to chose and God decides everything then what is the point of living. I think God let us vote whatever we felt and now we live the results.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Tue May 08, 2007 10:47 am

Sweet Tooth

No ones trying to insult you, your beliefs.

But God has nothing to do with the Government - we elect the one for the position.

Patsy

CrazyCruizChick · Post by **CrazyCruizChick** » Tue May 08, 2007 11:26 am

I have never like or trusted the so called government and never will unless I see a change for the better.

And if you are the men in white with your silly clipboards reading this do something bl**dy right.:p

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 08, 2007 11:43 am

I think it would be much more appropriate and accurate to ask people if they trust their government within different aspects of it itself...

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue May 08, 2007 11:43 am

Sweet Tooth;609031 wrote: I think its very harsh of you to say things like that. As a Bible believing Christian, I think that God is in control ov everything. And yes, I vote for who I want in there, but ultimatly, God is choosing! Please don't offend me again by being so ignorant as to others beliefs. They asked, i told!

I'm not trying to offend you, you are free to believe what you want.

But as you seem to consider it offensive that someone should not only disagree with your belief but express an opinion to that effect it is equally offensive that you should expect people to keep their opinions to themselves for fear of offending those of a religious disposition. Freedom from religious intolerance and oppression was hard won in the UK and the wounds still open occasionally.

Quite frankly I don't care if you are offended. The notion that governments are divinely elected by god is, IMO, ludicrous in the extreme. Agree to disagree if you like but don't tell me I have no right to express an opinion just because you find it offensive.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Tue May 08, 2007 11:50 am

K.Snyder;609069 wrote: I think it would be much more appropriate and accurate to ask people if they trust their government within different aspects of it itself...
What aspects would you suggest?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:03 pm

YZGI;609076 wrote: What aspects would you suggest?

Well, I'm not one to be governmentally proficient, but I would think that I could trust the government when it comes to everyones overall safety...

I know there has been instances in which people have been hurt, but for the most part, and considering how disliked we are by numerous countries I like to think that governmental policy regarding all of that is well orchestrated...I mean I worry about the local crackheads more than I worry about being blown up by a suicide bomber...

Those very same crackheads who are addicted to drugs that are deemed illegal mandated by that very same government...Honestly, while I completely understand that the government should be held responsible for the power it so likes to throw around, I surely don't question their ethical virtues as a whole...I think that the more local and small the government is the more it will be trusted by those people who so wish to appease it...

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:20 pm

Sweet Tooth;608995 wrote: I trust the government, maybe not all the time, but they are the leaders that God has placed here for us, and I trust God, so.... yes, I trust the government

Sorry but God had damn all to do with the election - the vote rigging was all man's doing.

If God determins the outcome of every election then why bother voting? God will make sure the correct candidate gets in to power anyway.

If God determins the outcome of every election then why did he chose Hitler?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:26 pm

K.Snyder;609082 wrote: Well, I'm not one to be governmentally proficient, but I would think that I could trust the government when it comes to everyones overall safety...

If the government had any interest in everyone's overall safety / wellbeing as opposed to their income then tobacco would have been banned years ago

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:55 pm

This is the same entity that conducted LSD experiments on people without their knowledge and what about the Tuskegee Experiment? That was only 40 years ago!

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:58 pm

Do I trust my government?

The "Brit" one, run by Tony Bliar? - No, no and no again.

The Scottish one? - I can't - currently I don't have one.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 08, 2007 2:00 pm

Bryn Mawr;609110 wrote: If the government had any interest in everyone's overall safety / wellbeing as opposed to their income then tobacco would have been banned years ago

Well I sort of thought something like that would come up...

I agree...

While it saddens me I think that alot of what people may benefit from just so happens to be the government looking after it's own interests...

I also agree that the government isn't forcing people to shove smoke down their lungs as well...

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 08, 2007 2:30 pm

K.Snyder;609129 wrote: Well I sort of thought something like that would come up...

I agree...

While it saddens me I think that alot of what people may benefit from just so happens to be the government looking after it's own interests...

I also agree that the government isn't forcing people to shove smoke down their lungs as well...

I find it more than a little hypocritical for them to run continuous anti-smoking campaigns whilst pocketing billions in tax from the sales. "Were increasing the tax on cigarettes for you own good" sticks in the craw when it's brought out year after year - just on the edge of the increase that people will tollerate.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Tue May 08, 2007 3:06 pm

Bryn

Snyder & All

Why can't our Government control the gas pricing? for the good of the people....

Patsy

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue May 08, 2007 3:12 pm

Bryn Mawr;609153 wrote: I find it more than a little hypocritical for them to run continuous anti-smoking campaigns whilst pocketing billions in tax from the sales. "Were increasing the tax on cigarettes for you own good" sticks in the craw when it's brought out year after year - just on the edge of the increase that people will tollerate.

It goes both ways...I suppose the real concern lies in which is biased...

I certainly agree about two wrongs don't make a right, but I also agree that people should be responsible for their own actions regardless of whom ignores it...I most certainly don't think of the government as being some sort of wicked evil empire, but I'm not the least bit prejudice when their selfish actions coincidentally enough help the majority of those whom they govern...

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 08, 2007 3:37 pm

K.Snyder;609171 wrote: It goes both ways...I suppose the real concern lies in which is biased...

I certainly agree about two wrongs don't make a right, but I also agree that people should be responsible for their own actions regardless of whom ignores it...I most certainly don't think of the government as being some sort of wicked evil empire, but I'm not the least bit prejudice when their selfish actions coincidentally enough help the majority of those whom they govern...

Either it is unacceptable to society (level of deaths through secondary smoking, burden on the NHS etc) in which case it should be banned outright or leave the poor bastards alone - this death by 1,000 taxes is cruel and unusual punishment.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 08, 2007 3:40 pm

Patsy Warnick;609169 wrote: Bryn

Snyder & All

Why can't our Government control the gas pricing? for the good of the people....

Patsy

But they are!

By destabalising the world's major oil producing region they are pushing the prices up so that reserves will last longer and the rate of polution will be lower.

Aren't they being good to you?

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Tue May 08, 2007 4:47 pm

The government consists of people so the question really is do you trust people?

In the government there are some honest and some dishonest as in society at large.

I find the current U.S. administration to be particuarly untrustworthy and I wouldn't trust them further than I could kick them.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 08, 2007 11:50 pm

zinkyusa;609227 wrote: The government consists of people so the question really is do you trust people?

In the government there are some honest and some dishonest as in society at large.

I find the current U.S. administration to be particuarly untrustworthy and I wouldn't trust them further than I could kick them.

It would be a mistake to see the government as homogenous with the general population. There is a particular type of person who is attracted to strive for the power embodied in government and those that want the power are not to be trusted.

Put it another way. Only a small percentage of the population have a calling to politics. Of those some start with a true desire to make a difference and work for the good of the nation. The rest are attracted by the appearance of power and should not be let within a thouosand miles of it. Even of those who start with good intentions, many are corrupted by the environment they work in.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed May 09, 2007 2:42 am

zinkyusa;609227 wrote: The government consists of people so the question really is do you trust people?

In the government there are some honest and some dishonest as in society at large.

I find the current U.S. administration to be particuarly untrustworthy and I wouldn't trust them further than I could kick them.

I would trust people before I would trust a politician telling me they know what is best.

At least GW is acting in what he believes are america's best interests-at least that is my impression. God knows what TB is up to but every time he mentions his legacy I have an tremendous urge to hit him.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed May 09, 2007 4:24 am

gmc;609343 wrote: I would trust people before I would trust a politician telling me they know what is best.

At least GW is acting in what he believes are america's best interests-at least that is my impression. God knows what TB is up to but every time he mentions his legacy I have an tremendous urge to hit him.

I wish I could say I felt the same....I think he has just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

Sweet Tooth · Post by **Sweet Tooth** » Wed May 09, 2007 5:32 am

I can not believe the way you all jumped on my back about God not being in voting or in the government?!?! God is all in our government overhere! On every coin made it says "In God We Trust" - God is not only "on" the government but in the government! I think in one of the high up meetings (general assembly maybe) they pray before they start! I trust the government as long as they are going by scripture! Ya, we are all human and will make mistakes, but as the Bible says, John 8:7 "If any one of you is without sin,let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

SlipStream · Post by **SlipStream** » Wed May 09, 2007 6:14 am

their all alike.. playin on the world stage.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed May 09, 2007 6:24 am

Sweet Tooth;609392 wrote: I can not believe the way you all jumped on my back about God not being in voting or in the government?!?! God is all in our government overhere! On every coin made it says "In God We Trust" - God is not only "on" the government but in the government! I think in one of the high up meetings (general assembly maybe) they pray before they start! I trust the government as long as they are going by scripture! Ya, we are all human and will make mistakes, but as the Bible says, John 8:7 "If any one of you is without sin,let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

I think their emphasis was more so on the fact that it's dangerous to base all of your trust in the government in the notion that God has a significant influence in that government...

We're all people, and based on my own observation I see no reason as to rule out the government being in the least bit susceptible to corruption, ego, and greed on the simple fact that it claims integral righteousness...

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed May 09, 2007 11:11 am

Sweet Tooth;609392 wrote: I can not believe the way you all jumped on my back about God not being in voting or in the government?!?! God is all in our government overhere! On every coin made it says "In God We Trust" - God is not only "on" the government but in the government! I think in one of the high up meetings (general assembly maybe) they pray before they start! I trust the government as long as they are going by scripture! Ya, we are all human and will make mistakes, but as the Bible says, John 8:7 "If any one of you is without sin,let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

I express incredulity that anyone still thinks like that in the 21st century your response was to tell me I shouldn't express such an opinion because you find it offensive. You're entitled to believe what you want just as everyone else is entitled to disagree with you and express an opinion even if it is to state they are non believers in a religion. You don't have to agree with them but no religion or it's followers should ever be allowed to claim they somehow have a right not to be argued with. If you choose take offence at everyone that doesn't believe as you do and says so that is your prerogative, but you find offence where none is intended. If you find non belief an offence that is your problem to come to terms with yourself.

God is in the government of all the Muslim countries as well. They too pray before they start and look to scripture to guide them. Muslim fundamentalists believe god is guiding them in their actions just as many Christian fundamentalists believe god is on their side. Unless of course they are worshipping different gods which seems unlikely since both claim there is only one.

I don't have any particular problem with god but some of his followers are a cause for concern.

Sweet Tooth · Post by **Sweet Tooth** » Wed May 09, 2007 11:17 am

gmc;609699 wrote: I express incredulity that anyone still thinks like that in the 21st century your response was to tell me I shouldn't express such an opinion because you find it offensive. You're entitled to believe what you want just as everyone else is entitled to disagree with you and express an opinion even if it is to state they are non believers in a religion. You don't have to agree with them but no religion or it's followers should ever be allowed to claim they somehow have a right not to be argued with. If you choose take offence at everyone that doesn't believe as you do and says so that is your prerogative, but you find offence where none is intended. If you find non belief an offence that is your problem to come to terms with yourself.

God is in the government of all the Muslim countries as well. They too pray before they start and look to scripture to guide them. Muslim fundamentalists believe god is guiding them in their actions just as many Christian fundamentalists believe god is on their side. Unless of course they are worshipping different gods which seems unlikely since both claim there is only one.

I don't have any particular problem with god but some of his followers are a cause for concern.

I'm not getting offended over people believing what they want and telling me so, Im getting offended by the little comments such as this I express incredulity that anyone still thinks like that in the 21st century- obviously some of us do!

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed May 09, 2007 1:11 pm

Bryn Mawr;609312 wrote: It would be a mistake to see the government as homogenous with the general population. There is a particular type of person who is attracted to strive for the power embodied in government and those that want the power are not to be trusted.

Put it another way. Only a small percentage of the population have a calling to politics. Of those some start with a true desire to make a difference and work for the good of the nation. The rest are attracted by the appearance of power and should not be let within a thouosand miles of it. Even of those who start with good intentions, many are corrupted by the environment they work in.

The Federal Government is much larger than just Congress, Supreme Court, and the Executive Branch over here. There are endless departments and agencies filled with people who are simply earning a living. Then add on state and local governments on top of the Fed and you certainly have a cross section of society serving in the government. If you are referring to the top level policy makers then yes I agree they do not represent a good cross section. I think people over rate how much real power the government has, having worked with Defense Dept. civilians during my time in the military I know how effectively foot dragging can be done to sabotage bad or unpopular policy. I do agree either that there are people who are attracted to power serve in the government, but there are also many who do there are just as many IMO who serve because they think they can be helpful or want to serve their country or state etc.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed May 09, 2007 1:22 pm

zinkyusa;609832 wrote: The Federal Government is much larger than just Congress, Supreme Court, and the Executive Branch over here. There are endless departments and agencies filled with people who are simply earning a living. Then add on state and local governments on top of the Fed and you certainly have a cross section of society serving in the government. If you are referring to the top level policy makers then yes I agree they do not represent a good cross section. I think people over rate how much real power the government has, having worked with Defense Dept. civilians during my time in the military I know how effectively foot dragging can be done to sabotage bad or unpopular policy. I do agree either that there are people who are attracted to power serve in the government, but there are also many who do there are just as many IMO who serve because they think they can be helpful or want to serve their country or state etc.

I do see the Civil Service as separate from the Government and career Civil Servants are a very different breed from Politicians :yh_pig&:yh_liar

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed May 09, 2007 1:29 pm

Sweet Tooth;609392 wrote: I can not believe the way you all jumped on my back about God not being in voting or in the government?!?! God is all in our government overhere! On every coin made it says "In God We Trust" - God is not only "on" the government but in the government! I think in one of the high up meetings (general assembly maybe) they pray before they start! I trust the government as long as they are going by scripture! Ya, we are all human and will make mistakes, but as the Bible says, John 8:7 "If any one of you is without sin,let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Not sure what you mean by this Sweet Tooth. Certainly we have many devout Christians, and also many other people with different views of God serving in government, but we do not have a Chrisitian Government nor a national religion. This is prohibted by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The motto you reference is on coins today,but it was not always there. It was added on during the Civil War to appease fundamentalist and increase their support for the war. E Pluribus Unum was the motto approved in 1782 for the national Seal. The U.S. Government does not "follow the scriptures" of the Christian Bible, nor any other scripture when acting in any official governing capacity. Individuals involved in government are free to follow them in their lives if they so choose.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed May 09, 2007 2:26 pm

Sweet Tooth;609718 wrote: I'm not getting offended over people believing what they want and telling me so, Im getting offended by the little comments such as this I express incredulity that anyone still thinks like that in the 21st century- obviously some of us do!

You say you are not offended by people believing what they want and telling you so but then you go on to say you are offended because I did tell you what I thought. Make up your mind.

Someone expressing an opinion differing from yours or stating that they find your position or attitude incredible is expressing an opinion different from yours or stating they find your attitude incredible.

from the Oxford English dictionary

incredible

• adjective 1 impossible or hard to believe.

If you choose to find offence every time somebody disagrees with your viewpoint where none is intended political debate amongst your peers must be very limited and possibly violent. If there is no compromise or respect in politics all that's left is conflict.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed May 09, 2007 4:30 pm

zinkyusa;609846 wrote: Not sure what you mean by this Sweet Tooth. Certainly we have many devout Christians, and also many other people with different views of God serving in government, but we do not have a Chrisitian Government nor a national religion. This is prohibted by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. The motto you reference is on coins today,but it was not always there. It was added on during the Civil War to appease fundamentalist and increase their support for the war. E Pluribus Unum was the motto approved in 1782 for the national Seal. The U.S. Government does not "follow the scriptures" of the Christian Bible, nor any other scripture when acting in any official governing capacity. Individuals involved in government are free to follow them in their lives if they so choose.

Technically yeah,..but the majority of the U.S is Christian and with our type of government it can easily be seen as being integrated with that of Christian fundamentals...Christians aren't going to stop being Christians just because of the constitution...

Tater Tazz · Post by **Tater Tazz** » Wed May 09, 2007 4:33 pm

Define government. Politicians always lie. My opion.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed May 09, 2007 4:56 pm

K.Snyder;609959 wrote: Technically yeah,..but the majority of the U.S is Christian and with our type of government it can easily be seen as being integrated with that of Christian fundamentals...Christians aren't going to stop being Christians just because of the constitution...

I guess you would need to define Christian fundamentals to be clear. There are a lot Christian fundamental prinicples that are not unique to Christianity. I agree Chrisitians won't stop being Chrisitans nor should they if that's what they want. However, the founding fathers were very fearful of the integration of church and state (based on experiences with the Church of England) and wanted to insure they two were kept separated. I would disagree if you said we had a Christian government because that would imply a theocracy to me and we don't have one. I would agree if you said we had a lot of Chrisitans working in government. One final note while some early government documents may mention God (e.g. the Declaration of Independance) they do not mention Jesus Christ. This was no accident, many the founding fathers believed in a God of one's own understanding.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed May 09, 2007 5:10 pm

zinkyusa;609974 wrote: I would disagree if you said we had a Christian government because that would imply a theocracy to me and we don't have one. I would agree if you said we had a lot of Chrisitans working in government.

I think to be politically correct we can't say that our government is a Christian government,..but there are alot of Christians within that government and their influences upon that government can be seen as being a Christian government...

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed May 09, 2007 5:13 pm

K.Snyder;609978 wrote: I think to be politically correct we can't say that our government is a Christian government,..but there are alot of Christians within that government and their influences upon that government can be seen as being a Christian government...

There are also a lot of people who are not affiliated with Christian Church who work for the government....