Divine Intervention vs Free Will

[booradley]

I don't think it's a good start on the route to heaven to doubt God, His Word or his method and purposes. That's like calling him a liar.

which god? they all contradict themselves. Obviously female;)

[ComfortablyNumb]

booradley wrote: I don't think it's a good start on the route to heaven to doubt God, His Word or his method and purposes. That's like calling him a liar.

which god? they all contradict themselves. Obviously female;)


Ah, I love the smell of mockery in the morning!

There's always one Joker in the pack.

[Accountable]

Jives wrote: Hi Accountable. What's your idea? Just reading the thread?It was for my education/edification mainly. I posted my decision back on page 8:

Accountable wrote:

Thanks everyone! I'm comfortable (even more than before) about my own free will being real and not some facade.

Suresh, we have a saying similar to your post about karma. You can choose your own actions, but you can't choose the consequences.

This has been and will continue to be a large stone in the foundation of my belief system

Now I'm just enjoying the show.

[Suresh Gupta]

jackie wrote: ......My God is not cruel, is yours?......


No, God is not cruel. What we see is the effect of some cause. Due to our limited knowledge we are not aware of the cause.

[abbey]

Suresh Gupta wrote: No, God is not cruel. What we see is the effect of some cause. Due to our limited knowledge we are not aware of the cause.Long time no see!

Happy new year to you Suresh x.

[Suresh Gupta]

abbey wrote: Long time no see!

Happy new year to you Suresh x.


Same to you and to all FG Members.

[Runner4thePrize]

For what its worth, this addresses your statements on will.

We know what scripture says about the will of man, and the will of God. I used to use the term "free moral agents" when on this subject, and that would be accurate also in describing this will that is within all men. In this country, we hear the term "freedom of choice" frequently. Of course it has been contaminated by the federally sanctioned government religion, (the aclu) but the meaning was originally intended to mean exactly what they say, freedom of choice. This is what God affords us in our walk with Him.

( Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.)

Israel was chosen not because they were "better" than other peoples, but because they were least of all nations on the earth, in essence a slave class of people.

They were given total freedom in the choices they made, and who they listened to, as we are today given free reign in our choice of either eternal life with Him, or bondage to sin and eternal condemnation.

The only thing we CANNOT choose, is to have to have a little of both. Scripture says its one or the other. We CANNOT serve God and mammon.

Of course this only applies if you are choose to and are willing to apply it. Therein lies the free will of man.

[Ted]

Comfortablynumb:-6

That is certainly your opinion to which you are entitled.

That being said, I have never said that the amount of education one has will affect their relationship with God. One must give up dogma and doctrine and live in a developing, transforming, relationship with the Risen Lord if claiming Christianity. On the other hand if not claiming Christianity they must live in a developing, transforming, realtionship with God who has more then a thousand names.

I never question God's word. God's word is not a book but a person in the character of Yeshua of Nazareth as shown in the first chapter of the Gospel of John.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Far Rider:-6

You are most definitely allowed to state your opinion just as I am. So out of the 22000 Christian denominations around the world each with a different interpretation on sone aspect of the scriptures whose interpretation is correct?

Out of some 400 000+ variations in the ancient manuscripts of the New Testabment which ones are correct.?I believe that you pick and choose as well. All Christians, whether they know it or are willing to admit to it or not, do. Leviticus tells us it is an abomination to wear clothing made of more then one kind of fibre. Most of our clothing today is made of a combination of fibres, an abomination. If you eat shellfish you are committing an abomination. Luckily I am not a fan of sea food so I can avoid that one. LOL

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Accountable]

Ted wrote: [...] Leviticus tells us it is an abomination to wear clothing made of more then one kind of fibre. Most of our clothing today is made of a combination of fibres, an abomination. If you eat shellfish you are committing an abomination. Luckily I am not a fan of sea food so I can avoid that one. LOL



Shalom

Ted:-6
Unless I'm mistaken, Christ freed us of the law you are referring to here.

[Ted]

FarRider:-6

So you do pick and choose just like all Christians.

You would also have, it seems, a problem with one educating oneself. Either you don't understand or you have already made up your mind and don't want confused by the facts.

If you don't see a problem with 22 000 Christian denominations each with its own interpretation then I'm really not sure why you have a problem with mine. As far as the thousands of ancient NT manuscripts go then I guess the folks, who by the way were scholars, could have included anything in the New Testament and you would have been quite happy.

Or are you just burying your head in the sand?

Most interestsing.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

FarRider:-6

My faith is based on my experience of the Risen Christ. Nothing more nothing less.

I hope this helps.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

FarRider:-6

I am not here to proselytise and lead folks to God. That is between them and God. I try to take an academic stand in discussions.

Several times in my life I have had mystical experiences of the Divine. I do not know how to describe those feelings. One knows that God is there and has touched one in one way or another. I have had many experiences that go beyond coincidence. The odds are infinite. I have seen others affected by their experiences. I have been involved as a faith healer (no not your tacky TV types).

Now, do I work as a messenger of my Lord? The answer is yes. I am often asked to preach sermons. I have been appointed to the Eucharistic ministry. Presently I am preparing a workshop for an ecumenical society on the theology of Dr. Matthew Fox. I am a seniors peer counselor. My wife and I support two foster children as well as a family on disability assistance. We also support the recycling organization. I am on the client services committee of the Canadian National Institute for the Blind for Vancouver Island.

None of this is intended to be seen as bragging. I and my wife are but humble servants of the Risen Christ. We are following the path that we have been led to follow by the Holy Spirit.

I believe that I have been called to be a servant and an academic. As an academic I read and study and attend the Vancouver School of Theology each summer as well as spending time with scholars whom I know.

I do hope this helps to explain.

May the Peace of Christ be with you.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Far Rider:-6

My salvation is not based on the work I do for the Lord although one my dispute that particular view that some espouse as their opinion.

My faith is based on Jesus Christ, the Risen Lord. I live in a developing transforming relationship with my Risen Lord. Jesus Christ is the foundation of my faith. Where else would you have me put it? Icould quote the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed but when all is said and done Jesus is Lord and on Him I base my faith.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

Far Rider:-6

Perhaps what you are really asking me is what authorities do I follow or accept.

There are three basic authorities: The Bible, the Church Councils, and church tradition. In addition we have the writings of all of the Great Christian thinkers down through history including the present time and of course my own God given conscience. All of this must be accompanied by a great dose of common sense or reasoning.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Runner4thePrize]

Just about every one of the christian "churches" who claim christianity have some sort of "council" as some call it who decides what to believe, who to believe, who goes to heaven, and who goes to hell. There are no two of these different denominational councils who agree exactly. They appear to put themselves between the Word and the people they are trying to hoodwink. Their message is "follow us!" Christ's message was "follow ME!"

That pesky Word I am talking about says that Jesus is the mediator between us and God the Father. It is only in Christ that anyone will see into, and enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus said this in John 3: We must believe Him and obey what He says to do. One would have to look long and hard to find any "council" willing to accept this as truth. To get out of religion and get into Truth would eliminate any need for their "councils" and their multi-million or billion dollar empire that they have set up here on earth under the direction of the god of this earth. (satan)

Education, reading of books written by men, another source where you will not find any two who agree exactly on what is Truth and what is religion, is one of satan's favorite wiles. As long as he has folks "thinking they are right" he has them in the palm of his hand. Satan does not care what we believe or how passionately we believe and defend a particular line of thinking, as long as we do not believe the Gospel message of Jesus.

I am not talking down to anyone by any means, I spent 50 years of my life wallowing around in the wisdoms and philosiphies of man, "thinking" I was right. ...Until the Word convicted me through the Spirit that salvation is only in Jesus, through the blood of jesus.

I now believe that once in Christ, we must hang on to Him. Hanging on to any other following, dogma, or inserting any other mediator only takes one to hell.

[Accountable]

"Whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein" (Luke 18:17).





No amount of study will give you that.

[Ted]

Runner:-6

Sigh! I don't think you have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Whom do you think gave us the Bible? It was the councils and the scholars.

Without either you would not have the Bible, imperfect as it is.

Shalom

Ted:-6

[Ted]

FarRider:-6

I do not believe that salvation is an instant one shot deal. It is a process of growth under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Some folks do have an epiphany but it is usuall after a period of growth.

It is rather difficult, no impossible, to say how long such a process takes. That is an individual thing.

Church councils do not grant salvation. It is the free gift of God through his grace.

You can read whomever you wish all I can do is suggest some books.

Your salvation is between you and God. Who am I to judge. For that matter who on earth can judge?

Shalom

Ted:-6

[EmersonBashier]

We were born with free will. In my opinion, sometimes Divine Intervention applies when we more or less let go.

I never was a very religious person but I was always a spiritual one. There's a big difference in my opinion.

I had a very unusual experience when I was resting with my eyes closed because I was weary from the problems that had been confronting me. Suddenly a flash of light and a sound like a thunderstorm resounded and I opened my eyes with a start. There was a hazy figure floating in front of me. It made no sound but was communicating through a from of telepathy. Then suddenly it disappeared.

I am not one for fantasyland but this was for real. I was so startled I just sat there. What was this all about I thought. This happened for a reason. It certainly did get my attention, but good!

Then things began to change in my circumstances but instead of my following the same old course I would usually follow, I tried to rethink my opinion. Was what I wanted the wrong direction? I pondered and pondered and in doing so I let go. Then new ideas started popping in my head. Why hadn't I thought of that before, I asked myself. As the changes began in my head, changes were surrounding me. I took the initiative and acted differently than before. Nothing ventured, nothing gained! Although things moved slowly at first while I was getting use to changing my attitude, events began accelerating. Then a door opened. Normally I would not have ventured in that direction but this time I was going to be a soldier of faith. I stepped through that door, scared, but I stepped through it. This was my opportunity, an opportunity I had never thought of before.

Circumstances really began to change for me after that and for the better. I realized then if I had not listened to that inner prompting and acted differently from my old way, this new set of circumstances would never have happened.

I hope this helps someone. I am speaking from my heart and soul. Emerson

[EmersonBashier]

Man has always had free will. Man is the highest creation in this universe. No other creature has free will. Why? Because man can think and reason. All other creatures exist on instinct.

This does not mean I do not believe in Divine Intervention because I've actually witnessed it.

Since I do not believe in death. Death is only a transfer of energies. When a person dies, that person remains the same with the exception of a bodily vehicle. Emotions stay the same. When a loved one passes through the veil, their love for the ones left behind does not change.

There have been too many incidents by very intelligent people who have experienced Divine intervention. For example, someone is moving toward a questionable situation where danger is or could be involved. Something inside of the individual who could be at risk has a "gut" feeling to change direction or some other plan of action. Where did that gut feeling come from?

Then there are testimonies where individuals have described that suddently they saw a deceased grandparent before them beckoning to them. There are just too many occasions where it can no longer be considered "just a coincidence."

Then there are angels. Many, many people have seen angels under certain circumstances. Now, all these people are not crazy. I saw an angel. I am a reasonable, well established man who lives in the world of everyday reality. When I was perplexed about religious beliefs and the confusion surrounding all these religions, I needed help. Yes, I went for a while wandering around searching and seeking but one day it happened. An angel appeared before me when I was resting in an easy chair one evening when the house was quiet. The angel did not speak but I knew that being was there for a reason.

One day I was talking to a friend of mine who told me of a certain book to read. I bought the book and read it. It was one of the most fantastic books I have ever read. That was the beginning of the exploration of my true self. My friend was like an angel by supplying the information I needed to proceed in the right direction.

My point is sometimes when we reach out with a pure heart seeking for Truth and Wisdom, Divine Intervention enters the picture. True, the angel did not say a word but maybe the angel was the beginning to make me take notice of something. I didn't know it was going to come through a friend of mine.

I never doubt certain paranormal incidents now. Divine Intervention comes in many forms. We must be alert! If not, one could miss the boat entirely because of fixed ideas we develop over the years. Emerson

[Ted]

Emerson:-6

Excellent posts. Yes, sometimes we need to stop and listen within to the divine that exists within each of us. A Psalm does say "Be still and know that I am God". Many call that meditation and it does work.

Shalom

Ted:-6