Fate vs Free Will

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue May 22, 2007 2:01 am

I wrote this in another thread but it seemed suitable to start a new topic.

I've been reading about the philosophical progression on the philosophical views of Man's place in the Universe and, specifically, ideas on fate vs free will.

In earliest records, it was believed that mankind was completely at the whim and fate of the world around him. That rocks, trees, everything you could see, had a spirit that was superior and that would quickly fall in judgement over a human's actions or thoughts. Progressively, thinkers moved away from this idea to realise that people could actually affect their social direction through choices and willpower... notably changing with Socrates.

Much of the reasoning was influenced by religion, wherein the philosopher would look at a religious belief and say "if this is true then this must follow" and if the philosophy supported the religion then it gained support from the population. Most thinking is biased by previous perceptions but people have learned to become more objective over time. Still, for most ideas to occur they must have roots and roots are fed by existing ideas.

I think it can be proven that free will affects our destinies but then we never know if the choice we made was predestined so, ultimately, we have only the power of belief to back it up. We can't view all the branches of possibility except for in our minds and once an action is taken there is no knowing what else might have existed.

Is questioning our ability to affect our own destiny a foolish question or would the answer change the way we live if we were able to prove one or the other?

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 22, 2007 2:14 am

If everything is pre-destined, if it is possible to predict the outcome of a person's life years in advance, if, as an individual, you have no choice in the course your life will take, then what is the point of living?

I beleive that we have to live our lives on the assumption that we have full control over it be exercising our free will in all things. To blame our condition on fate is a cop-out that renders life meaningless.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue May 22, 2007 2:57 am

Can there be a combination of fate and free will?

I imagine a person must believe in God in some form if fate figures into the formula at all but then Pythagoras believed that numbers were divine so that fatalistic force could be structured in a number of ways, intellectually.

I do know that there have been times in my life that I did everything "right" but was still prevented from achieving the result I intended.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 22, 2007 3:09 am

koan;618731 wrote: Can there be a combination of fate and free will?

I imagine a person must believe in God in some form if fate figures into the formula at all but then Pythagoras believed that numbers were divine so that fatalistic force could be structured in a number of ways, intellectually.

I do know that there have been times in my life that I did everything "right" but was still prevented from achieving the result I intended.

Not necessarily, historical trends and social preasures will apply a force that will possibly divert you away from your goal so that, for all of your application of free will, you fail to reach your objective. No God in that lot.

It's whether you believe that what came between you and your goal was "fate", "Divine intervention", "natural forces" or good old coincidence and bad luck.

Just because you are exercising your free will and chosing the direction your life should travel in doesn't mean that you will always reach your destination.

Just because you don't reach your destination doesn't mean that the result was pre-determined.

coberst · Post by **coberst** » Tue May 22, 2007 3:10 am

koan;618717 wrote: I wrote this in another thread but it seemed suitable to start a new topic.

Is questioning our ability to affect our own destiny a foolish question or would the answer change the way we live if we were able to prove one or the other?

Questioning our ability to affect our own destiny is exactly the thinking that all responsible adults should be doing.

I appalaud your efforts to examine this question. Too few adults think about such matters.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue May 22, 2007 3:13 am

I think one thing that ambitious people, in particular, don't keep in mind is that everyone has their will at work simultaneously. The more my plans involve other people the more open I have to be to altering my plans. A lot of people insist on trying to force their free will on others and it ends in unhappiness for someone along the line.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Tue May 22, 2007 4:58 am

I believe that the script of our lives is prewritten and has in fact already occurred, but that has more to do with the way I view time and space. I believe we have free in determining how we choose to "view" the script. We can be vicitms or look at our lives as a classroom.

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Tue May 22, 2007 5:10 am

zinkyusa;618784 wrote: I believe that the script of our lives is prewritten and has in fact already occurred, but that has more to do with the way I view time and space. I believe we have free in determining how we choose to "view" the script. We can be vicitms or look at our lives as a classroom.

Well said Zinky :-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue May 22, 2007 5:46 am

I do believe that there is some fate playing out the cards in the hand but we are required to participate in events. I think we can choose whether or not we make it through the goals that were preset. Though I think we preset them ourselves.

I have no idea how to explain why I believe that though.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 22, 2007 6:27 am

koan;618811 wrote: I do believe that there is some fate playing out the cards in the hand but we are required to participate in events. I think we can choose whether or not we make it through the goals that were preset. Though I think we preset them ourselves.

I have no idea how to explain why I believe that though.

So not quite the Norns cackling away weaving the tapestry of life and cutting your thread at the end of it?

We all have advantages and disadvantages in our birth and early years and we are presented with situations throughout our life that we have to deal with but how we deal with then us up to us as is the direction in which we steer our life.

Hold on, haven't I just said the same as you - just from a different viewpoint?

Sweet Tooth · Post by **Sweet Tooth** » Tue May 22, 2007 8:31 am

Bryn Mawr;618721 wrote: If everything is pre-destined, if it is possible to predict the outcome of a person's life years in advance, if, as an individual, you have no choice in the course your life will take, then what is the point of living?

I beleive that we have to live our lives on the assumption that we have full control over it be exercising our free will in all things. To blame our condition on fate is a cop-out that renders life meaningless.

Ok, to get a little religious, us Christians believe that "the chief purpose of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever."( its in our chatechism) so there is a purpose of living. I think God has predestined our lives, but I think that he lets us make some desicions too.I think that He lets us do what we want sometimes, but already knows what we are going to do!

Thats just what I believe though.

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Tue May 22, 2007 8:35 am

Sweet Tooth;618977 wrote: Ok, to get a little religious, us Christians believe that "the chief purpose of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever."( its in our chatechism) so there is a purpose of living. I think God has predestined our lives, but I think that he lets us make some desicions too.I think that He lets us do what we want sometimes, but already knows what we are going to do!

Thats just what I believe though.

wow mind blowing

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 22, 2007 8:41 am

Sweet Tooth;618977 wrote: Ok, to get a little religious, us Christians believe that "the chief purpose of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever."( its in our chatechism) so there is a purpose of living. I think God has predestined our lives, but I think that he lets us make some desicions too.I think that He lets us do what we want sometimes, but already knows what we are going to do!

Thats just what I believe though.

If he knows what we are going to do before we decide to do it then it is not done by free will - we might have an illusion of free will but, if the outcome is pre-ordained and known then no free will exists.

I would have thought that God would have preferred man to glorify him and enjoy him forever by choice rather then because he is predestined to do so.

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Tue May 22, 2007 12:07 pm

i think our lives are a combination of free will, chance, and devine intervention.

koan · Post by **koan** » Tue May 22, 2007 6:38 pm

We enjoy watching movies and plays even though the ending is predetermined. Sometimes even watch them over and over until the lines are memorised... so I don't see why it would matter if our lives were the same way. They could still be enjoyable.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue May 22, 2007 11:27 pm

koan;619389 wrote: We enjoy watching movies and plays even though the ending is predetermined. Sometimes even watch them over and over until the lines are memorised... so I don't see why it would matter if our lives were the same way. They could still be enjoyable.

Depends wtether you want to drag up the settee, get out the popcorn and watch life go by or whether you want to live I suppose.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed May 23, 2007 12:43 am

nah, It's one thing to say I had an emotion and entirely another to actually feel it. I like to try and fully appreciate every sensation. If that was the main reason for being alive I'd be fine with that.

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Wed May 23, 2007 2:12 am

magenta flame;619455 wrote: don't speak on behalf of all Christians your take on christianity is very diferent to mine. the bible says not to for ordane yourself in 'fate'!

but putting religion aside, the question of "Fate verses free will: always brings to my mind more questions than answers .

Okay, 'fate' .- a child is born with a desease that will only affect him about the age of twenty . does he see this as his "fate"

A person lives a promiscuous life then tells himself that the AIDS he contracted was "fate".

Two very different siutuations but both see it as their "fate"

Free will-taken from the first example - lives life as everybody else, he is determined to start a business after finishing school (he really has no idea when he will be struck down or the moment of his death)lives as everybody else does until his demise. he has ascertained free will

the second example chooses his life style and is struck down with AIDS and sees this as a consequence of his life choices.

to me persception is what it's all about

i'd of thought the kid's ill health was fate

and the shagoholic is not ,after all he did not put the mack on out of his own free will not fate , unless he was drugged and taken advantage against his free will which would then be fate ,glad i cleared this up for you mf

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed May 23, 2007 3:31 am

Perhaps he was fated to discover a cure for the disease.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri May 25, 2007 4:42 am

I believe God gave us free will, even though He didn't have to. That was His free will. I assume our free will is granted within the boundaries of natural law, but I could be wrong.

I also believe that we can ask God to intervene in our lives, much as we ask for help from friends or ask for a job. In all these instances, we are subordinating (I think that's the word I want) our will to that of the other - voluntarily. Asking God's will, following God's Plan, or however you may say it, is more profound, but just as simple, as asking Mom's advice on how to handle a problem child. The person or diety asked has the free will to respond any way he or she wishes.

We have the free will to strike out on our on. We also have the free will to yield to the will of others. I hope that makes sense.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Fri May 25, 2007 5:31 am

Some excellent points made. One thing I find I confusing is if something is "fated" ie predetermined, but one is not aware of what will happen, is there any free will invloved? I believe the only free will is in how one chooses to look at the predetermined script. I once had the feeling as I was driving that I was somewhere else watching me drive and wondered "who is driving the da*mn car"? I believe there is an observer of my life maybe outside of time and space that actaully watches my life go by. I have PTSD and during some rather severe episodes I have quite clearly felt a calm rational part of mind watching another part of mind melt down. It was not another personality it was still me but it was detached in a way. Anyway I choose to look at my life now as an opportunity to learn lessons (based on how I accept and forgive) with the goal being a recovery of some of oneness with my creator. I don't think God actively intervenes in my life (get's me parking spaces) but I believe God or God's symbols appear to be more of a "lighthouse" calling me home.

PrinceAl'Din · Post by **PrinceAl'Din** » Mon May 28, 2007 8:58 pm

- Fate is the friend of the good, the guide of the wise, the tyrant of the foolish, the enemy of the bad. - William Rounseville Alger

Fate is the natural direction our life is heading in. This is happening anyway, whether we are conscious of it or not. It is the natural flow of life, which is set for us in the stars, and is influenced by the others in our life

But again I think god balanced free will and fate in everbody's life.

I think in a life there should be an essence of both.Fate may be good or bad but mainly it's only through it that we discover to cope up with bad times and all the tough things in life.

If all was supposed to go good..then what could we possibly learn in the short span of the lifetime that god gave us?

PrincessJazmin · Post by **PrincessJazmin** » Tue May 29, 2007 9:46 am

According to me, Man is the creator of his own fate. Why would God set us down on pre-planned paths? There is no logic to it.. then there should be no judgement of whether we should go to heaven or hell, I mean it was planned by god right?

I think not.

I think fate is just an excuse. When you are in a tight corner, its comforting to believe that its not your fault that you ended up where you are, and that it was all fate or destiny. But WE are responsible for our own fates.

The decisions we make, the actions we take, this is what shapes our future..... Yes perhaps there is such a thing as Karma, and yes, maybe it does affect our lives to a small extent, but in the end, our lives are under are own control...

PrinceAl'Din · Post by **PrinceAl'Din** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:49 pm

PrincessJazmin;624349 wrote: According to me, Man is the creator of his own fate. Why would God set us down on pre-planned paths? There is no logic to it.. then there should be no judgement of whether we should go to heaven or hell, I mean it was planned by god right?

I think not.

I think fate is just an excuse. When you are in a tight corner, its comforting to believe that its not your fault that you ended up where you are, and that it was all fate or destiny. But WE are responsible for our own fates.

The decisions we make, the actions we take, this is what shapes our future..... Yes perhaps there is such a thing as Karma, and yes, maybe it does affect our lives to a small extent, but in the end, our lives are under are own control...
Our lives is in our control= Control * K

Where 'K' is the constant of Karma?

What I wish to say is simply that god knows what will happen in anyone's life and this world from beginnning to the end.Yet...if we look from our own perspective....we mortals...do we know what is gonna happen next?Can we just blame that we were destined to be a good or bad.If every person in the world thinks that god destined her/him to be good or bad...would anyone feel any guilt in doing a objectionable thing?

But I was going a lil off-topic here.

It's about fate.Fate is just the result of our karma.Of course it's in our hands to decide our fate.And we can do it by our free-will.They are inter-related though they may seem to have contrary meanings.

Doing right can lead you to the realm of bliss and your right steps can get you to that realm and vice-versa.

*Reads the post* I confuzzled myself

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed May 30, 2007 11:27 pm

PrinceAl'Din;625393 wrote: Our lives is in our control= Control * K

Where 'K' is the constant of Karma?

What I wish to say is simply that god knows what will happen in anyone's life and this world from beginnning to the end.Yet...if we look from our own perspective....we mortals...do we know what is gonna happen next?Can we just blame that we were destined to be a good or bad.If every person in the world thinks that god destined her/him to be good or bad...would anyone feel any guilt in doing a objectionable thing?

But I was going a lil off-topic here.

It's about fate.Fate is just the result of our karma.Of course it's in our hands to decide our fate.And we can do it by our free-will.They are inter-related though they may seem to have contrary meanings.

Doing right can lead you to the realm of bliss and your right steps can get you to that realm and vice-versa.

*Reads the post* I confuzzled myself

How can this possibly be?

If, before we live it, every action in our life is known, then any free will involved can only be illusory.

To mix my metaphores, whilst the Norns weave the thread of our lives, Maya spins an illusion of freedom? Doesn't work for me I'm afraid - if every action we're going to take in our lives is known before we start then we are nought but puppets.

PrincessJazmin · Post by **PrincessJazmin** » Thu May 31, 2007 8:05 am

According to me, yes God may know what is going to happen, because afterall God knows you better than you know yourself and he knows how you will react to certain situations and end up where you belong.

But, that doesnt mean that God plans everything. Then, what would be the use of living, if we are going to travel on already laid tracks? yeah maybe the Big Guy upstairs knows what we are going to do, but I think he leaves us the freedom to actually do it....

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:03 pm

PrinceAl'Din;625393 wrote:

What I wish to say is simply that god knows what will happen in anyone's life and this world from beginnning to the end.

PrincessJazmin;625676 wrote: According to me, yes God may know what is going to happen, because afterall God knows you better than you know yourself and he knows how you will react to certain situations and end up where you belong.

But, that doesnt mean that God plans everything. Then, what would be the use of living, if we are going to travel on already laid tracks? yeah maybe the Big Guy upstairs knows what we are going to do, but I think he leaves us the freedom to actually do it....

It's the beginning to end statement that I'm taking exception to. From that it's totally implicit that we are travelling on already laid tracks and, like you, I see no point in life under those conditions.

If we are to exist then there should be a point to or lives.

PrinceAl'Din · Post by **PrinceAl'Din** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:28 am

Bryn Mawr;628119 wrote: It's the beginning to end statement that I'm taking exception to. From that it's totally implicit that we are travelling on already laid tracks and, like you, I see no point in life under those conditions.

If we are to exist then there should be a point to or lives.

The laid out tracks are invisible to mortals and visible to immortals.We may try any of the path we have been given to travel.The thing is that god knows what path will we choose and accordingly what will we face next.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:34 pm

PrinceAl'Din;629117 wrote: The laid out tracks are invisible to mortals and visible to immortals.We may try any of the path we have been given to travel.The thing is that god knows what path will we choose and accordingly what will we face next.

No so. The tracks, if they are there, remove the purpose from our lives and a pox on any immortal who thinks to play games with us. God or not, they are beneath contempt.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:19 am

Bryn Mawr;629723 wrote: No so. The tracks, if they are there, remove the purpose from our lives and a pox on any immortal who thinks to play games with us. God or not, they are beneath contempt.
I knew you'd say that :yh_wink

God only knows what you'll post next. :wah:

.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 7:47 am

In earliest records, it was believed that mankind was completely at the whim and fate of the world around him. That rocks, trees, everything you could see, had a spirit that was superior and that would quickly fall in judgement over a human's actions or thoughts. Progressively, thinkers moved away from this idea to realise that people could actually affect their social direction through choices and willpower... notably changing with Socrates.

I should think the first time man hunted for food by falling a great beast or by merely plucking the fruit from the tree and the end result was his hunger was relieved his destiny as creative purveyor of the world he lives in was established forever more. Long long before Socrates. Perhaps the genuine thought process wasnt intact but early mans actions were a firm basis for recognition.

Much of the reasoning was influenced by religion, wherein the philosopher would look at a religious belief and say "if this is true then this must follow" and if the philosophy supported the religion then it gained support from the population. Most thinking is biased by previous perceptions but people have learned to become more objective over time. Still, for most ideas to occur they must have roots and roots are fed by existing ideas.

In the beginning roots were established through superstitions due to lack of progressive thinking. Therefore if religions were based on roots based in superstition mans world was based on blind speculation. Much the way religions across the world exist even today. Outside of our close knit Earth we know very little still.

I think it can be proven that free will affects our destinies but then we never know if the choice we made was predestined so, ultimately, we have only the power of belief to back it up. We can't view all the branches of possibility except for in our minds and once an action is taken there is no knowing what else might have existed.

Thats the beauty of living in a culturally diverse world. Nothing will remain stagnant for long. We may try this but soon someone else will come along and try that. The human spirit cannot be contained and the human mind ventures far from home (as you well know). As long as there are possibilities to be explored they will be.

Science has met a roadblock on human embryonic cell research and science is finding a way to manuever around that by creating identical cells with other living tissue. You cant stop the momentum. Its an impossibility.

Is questioning our ability to affect our own destiny a foolish question or would the answer change the way we live if we were able to prove one or the other?

Were step by step living our way into some of the answers. Your time here on Earth is a microcosm of whats come before you and what lies ahead. Think of the remarkable advances weve made in the last 50 yrs. Now try to imagine what the next 200 yrs might reveal. And still unless we destroy eachother its only a microcosm in time. A nano second. Blip.....

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:50 am

Accountable;633630 wrote: I knew you'd say that :yh_wink

God only knows what you'll post next. :wah:

.

.:p.

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:03 pm

This started out much longer and then I found myself using allusions after I had clearly said fate is not something that can be explained using allusion and alliteration. So, I cut the first part out and kept the allusion.

Fate is like the downtown area of a large city, and free will is one of the many ways to get to that spot. You could take the trolley, a taxi, the subway, a bus; you could walk, ride a bike, call a friend, or drive your own vehicle. Regardless you end up in the same spot, the only thing that changes are the company you have on your way, and the scenery you pass by.

People will say things like, “If the outcome is already pre-determined, why bother living? I hate using quotation marks, it makes me feel like the power of the word or phrase is being taken from me.

People will say things like, if the outcome is pre-determined why bother living, they refuse to think outside of that box that holds so many, so still and quiet. The outcome has so little to do with it all that if it didn’t happen it wouldn’t matter. It isn’t the outcome; it is the way you get to that last chapter. You will die, eventually. Call it fate or call it science, but they will put you in the ground one day. What we have to do is choose the means of transport, and the route we take to get there.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:58 pm

KB.;635177 wrote: This started out much longer and then I found myself using allusions after I had clearly said fate is not something that can be explained using allusion and alliteration. So, I cut the first part out and kept the allusion.

Fate is like the downtown area of a large city, and free will is one of the many ways to get to that spot. You could take the trolley, a taxi, the subway, a bus; you could walk, ride a bike, call a friend, or drive your own vehicle. Regardless you end up in the same spot, the only thing that changes are the company you have on your way, and the scenery you pass by.

People will say things like, “If the outcome is already pre-determined, why bother living? I hate using quotation marks, it makes me feel like the power of the word or phrase is being taken from me.

People will say things like, if the outcome is pre-determined why bother living, they refuse to think outside of that box that holds so many, so still and quiet. The outcome has so little to do with it all that if it didn’t happen it wouldn’t matter. It isn’t the outcome; it is the way you get to that last chapter. You will die, eventually. Call it fate or call it science, but they will put you in the ground one day. What we have to do is choose the means of transport, and the route we take to get there.

You're born, you die - that isn't fate that's the nature of life.

If there are an infinity of paths to get from the one to the other and you can chose which to travel by then that's free will. If you have to pass through A, B and C then that's pre-determinism - the number and frequency of waypoints defines the degree of determinism in the system.

Some here have suggested that every point in life is known by God from birth or before - that to me is not being alive it's being a puppet.

As I see it, the conditions under which you are born and the social pressures within your life push you towards a number of waypoints and you can drift through life and visit them all. Alternatively you can chose a direction for your life and avoid some or all of the ones you find unacceptable.

Why do you say that those who dislike pre-determinism "refuse to think outside the box"? Someone's coming to a different conclusion to your own is not a sign of their refusal to think any more than it being a sign of your refusal to think.

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:19 pm

Let me amend then, refusal to think outside my box. Everyone has a box, some folks have two(that was just for you Koan). I believe that God is omniscient, but that doesn't make me a puppet. That is just me though; I am a walking contradiction. I believe in predestination, and free will. Fate and chance.