Colonialism

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:05 pm

Colonialism is supposedly bad, it expoits the local population and purloins the natural resources. What African nations are actually better off today than when they were under the different colonial powers? Zimbabwe, formally Rhodesia was a shinning beacon, today, a disaster. The infrastructure is shot to hell, streets in disrepair, services lacking. It's move to independence was premature in my opinion because the local population was insufficiently trained and educated to run the infrastructure. How about some of the other African nations. Any real standouts?

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:29 pm

Lon wrote: Colonialism is supposedly bad, it expoits the local population and purloins the natural resources. What African nations are actually better off today than when they were under the different colonial powers? Zimbabwe, formally Rhodesia was a shinning beacon, today, a disaster. The infrastructure is shot to hell, streets in disrepair, services lacking. It's move to independence was premature in my opinion because the local population was insufficiently trained and educated to run the infrastructure. How about some of the other African nations. Any real standouts?
Colonialism greatly benefited whites. Colonialism drew boundaries all over the continent that were the catalyst for many bloody conflicts that continue today. The Belgian/French preference of Rwanda/Burundi's Tutsi tribe propelled that group to the top of the political and economic foodchain. The more numerous Hutu, whose roots in the region were much deeper were cast aside to menial jobs, housing, etc. We all know what happened in Rwanda in '94. Similar atrocities were played out in the Dem. Rep. of Congo, Somalia, several West African states and of course Uganda, where Idi Amin took power to avenge the treatment of his northern tribe by southerners.(preferred by their British masters.) The nomadic way of life for the north Africans was wiped out. Boundaries made up in Europe divided peoples, forced them to overgraze in one area and flood the capitals with refugees. In 1970 Nouakchott, Mauritania (the coastal capital) had a population under 70,000. The desertification of the rest of this very large country has swelled the city pop. to just under 500,000. The conditions make Haiti look glamorous. After finally using Africa as a playground during the Cold War, installing and supporting brutal dictatorships (such as Mobutu, Taylor, and others) that further drove these countries to ruin. U.S. financing of the terrorist Renamo guerilla war in Mozambique killed thousands and ended only 10 years ago. It took Cuba to defend the people of Angola from genocidal Jonas Savimbi and his masters in apartheid South Africa. Their defeat at Cuito Cuanavale was a victory for all Africans. Colonialism was great for white racists. It has spelled doom for generations of Africans whose homelands have been used, depleted and forgotten by the the developed world. History won't forgive us.

Philadelphia Eagle · Post by **Philadelphia Eagle** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:45 pm

A very good question Lon. During my working life I traveled throughout East and West Africa and cannot name one African state that is better off now than they were in colonial times. Most of them are considerably worse off. It seems to stem from the inherant inability of leaders in these countries to govern or have the welfare of their populations at heart. Zimbabwe is but one example of this. On many occasions when visiting these locations I was quietly asked by people if I could persuade the colonists to return! Needless to say I wasn't in a position to help!

I do believe that this is an African rather than a colonial problem,

One of the worst places I ever visited in terms of poverty, general degredation, hopelessness etc. was Liberia and they have never been colonised!

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:12 pm

David813 wrote: Colonialism greatly benefited whites. Colonialism drew boundaries all over the continent that were the catalyst for many bloody conflicts that continue today. The Belgian/French preference of Rwanda/Burundi's Tutsi tribe propelled that group to the top of the political and economic foodchain. The more numerous Hutu, whose roots in the region were much deeper were cast aside to menial jobs, housing, etc. We all know what happened in Rwanda in '94. Similar atrocities were played out in the Dem. Rep. of Congo, Somalia, several West African states and of course Uganda, where Idi Amin took power to avenge the treatment of his northern tribe by southerners.(preferred by their British masters.) The nomadic way of life for the north Africans was wiped out. Boundaries made up in Europe divided peoples, forced them to overgraze in one area and flood the capitals with refugees. In 1970 Nouakchott, Mauritania (the coastal capital) had a population under 70,000. The desertification of the rest of this very large country has swelled the city pop. to just under 500,000. The conditions make Haiti look glamorous. After finally using Africa as a playground during the Cold War, installing and supporting brutal dictatorships (such as Mobutu, Taylor, and others) that further drove these countries to ruin. U.S. financing of the terrorist Renamo guerilla war in Mozambique killed thousands and ended only 10 years ago. It took Cuba to defend the people of Angola from genocidal Jonas Savimbi and his masters in apartheid South Africa. Their defeat at Cuito Cuanavale was a victory for all Africans. Colonialism was great for white racists. It has spelled doom for generations of Africans whose homelands have been used, depleted and forgotten by the the developed world. History won't forgive us.
Care to speculate on what Africa might be like today if the ALL the colonial powers never set foot on the continent?

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:16 pm

Lon wrote: Care to speculate on what Africa might be like today if the ALL the colonial powers never set foot on the continent?
I think there would be only about 5 countries, all large. I think without slavery and colonialism most of Africa would be at the development stage of Brazil or Venezuela. Black people are capable of the same things we whites are! They just had one helluva run of bad luck with the whites and Arabs dividing and conquering.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:26 pm

David813 wrote: I think there would be only about 5 countries, all large. I think without slavery and colonialism most of Africa would be at the development stage of Brazil or Venezuela. Black people are capable of the same things we whites are! They just had one helluva run of bad luck with the whites and Arabs dividing and conquering.
If you will remember, Brazil had a Portugese incursion and Venezuela, Spanish.

Are you saying that without the influence of the evil white man, that the various African tribes would have evolved to the present state of Brazil and Venezuela? Of course black people have the same capabilities, but they are not going to develop these capabilities without someone teaching them, or are you saying it will occur by osmosis?

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:31 pm

Lon wrote: If you will remember, Brazil had a Portugese incursion and Venezuela, Spanish.

Are you saying that without the influence of the evil white man, that the various African tribes would have evolved to the present state of Brazil and Venezuela? Of course black people have the same capabilities, but they are not going to develop these capabilities without someone teaching them, or are you saying it will occur by osmosis?
I used Brazil & Venezuela as examples of developed countries with strong infrastructure and relatively sturdy economies. How did white men learn to build nations? Who taught them? Osmosis? Blacks don't need to be taught any more than we did all those centuries ago. Hmmm. Lon you sound a bit like you're in the Aryan Nations column!

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:37 pm

David813 wrote: I used Brazil & Venezuela as examples of developed countries with strong infrastructure and relatively sturdy economies. How did white men learn to build nations? Who taught them? Osmosis? Blacks don't need to be taught any more than we did all those centuries ago. Hmmm. Lon you sound a bit like you're in the Aryan Nations column!
Careful my friend with the Aryan Nations crap. If your only intelligent response is to insinuate racism on my part, you know nothing at all about me.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:12 pm

Lon wrote: Careful my friend with the Aryan Nations crap. If your only intelligent response is to insinuate racism on my part, you know nothing at all about me.
I'm sorry Lon but you imply black Africans are incapable of self rule without being taught by whites. In my part of the world at least, that is racist. I do not know if you are personally or not but your posts on this thread imply a belief blacks were better off under apartheid/colonial occupation. Just an observation.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:13 pm

Who taught whites civilization 101?? Just Curious! :rolleyes:

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat May 14, 2005 2:19 am

Lety's see. European history, tribal warfare, slavery (white on white not just different colours which just adds a new dimension), religious warfare, empires rising and falling, genocide, racism, exploitation, the development if bible based theories about god given superiority to justify colonialism. Manifest destiny is an american twist on the same bigotry. We owe our dominance to the cannon and the machine gun and arguably that the mongols couldn't be bothered to go further west than they did. Not so long ago we were doing our best to wipe each other out, not to mention stuffing people into gas chambers because they were inferior.

The incas and aztecs had civilisations every bit as viable as ours, what they didn't have were draught animals, so no wheel, no cannon, muskets. North american indians had democratic institutions just as we had in europe.

In Medeival times africa had nation states on a par with any in europe. Some of them were able to defeat european armies until superior weapons technology won the day. The zulus would have fought the british to a standstill except we had rifles and cannon, they were a long way from being primitive savages.

How about South Africa? For apartheid to end without massive bloodshed is a tribute to black south africans not the white ones. Or do you think South Africa doesn't count for some reason.

The ancient ruined cities in Rhodesia who do you think built them? No doubt you imagine it was a lost tribe of white men like many of the colonial settlers liked to believe.

Read your bible, what colour do you think the queen of sheba was, or the kingdom of the Kush that the egyptians fought, come to that what colour do you think egyptians were. One of the earliest christian saints was a black roman centurion

posted by lon

Of course black people have the same capabilities, but they are not going to develop these capabilities without someone teaching them, or are you saying it will occur by osmosis?

Maybe you didn't mean to sound racist but you do rather imply that they need to be taught by the white man. Like us they will kill, rape, burn, destroy, have kings, dictators, eventually they might even become democracies who knows. When did america intriduce universal suffrage, or was the civil rights in the south fictional

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sat May 14, 2005 6:03 am

Maybe you didn't mean to sound racist but you do rather imply that they need to be taught by the white man. Like us they will kill, rape, burn, destroy, have kings, dictators, eventually they might even become democracies who knows. When did america intriduce universal suffrage, or was the civil rights in the south fictional
My black friends and relatives would hardly call me racist. It doesn;t matter who teaches the un-learned, white, black, yellow. Civilization only comes about with education and training.