Help me to understand why-

cars · Post by **cars** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:39 pm

it is customary for restaurant food servers to get/expect 15 to 20% of the total food bill. Why is it not just a flat rate? Like $1.50pp for breakfast, $2.50pp for lunch, & $5.00pp for dinner? As when in the same resturaunt, if I choose to have a $10.00 hamburger, the 20% tip is $2.00. If I choose to have a $30.00 steak, because the the tip is a percentage, I now have to leave $"6.00" !!! The food server would make the same amount of steps from the kitchen to my table with either meal.

So don't understand why the exorbitant differece in tip????

(Actually when you think about it, the pp flat rate, could turn out more profitable for the food server. If say 3 people were at the table & all 3 had a $10.00 hamburger, the total bill would be $30.00 x 20% = $6.00. At the pp rate, that would be $5.00pp that turns out to $15.00)

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:44 pm

Eat at home then.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:48 pm

What's a restaurant, cars? How does it differ from a fast food outlet or a café? Would you not treat tipping in each of those three environments differently?

cars · Post by **cars** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:55 pm

KB.;655883 wrote: Eat at home then.

Party Pooper!!

(I enjoy eating in restaurants, & do, 3 to 4 times a week!!!)

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:56 pm

KB.;655883 wrote: Eat at home then.
A quick look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping is a fair indication that tipping is culturally conditioned. You'd expect different answers from different parts of the world on this issue.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:00 pm

Fast food is like a cafeteria, they prepare the food and get to go or carry a tray and serve yourself.

Restaurants vary - waitress runs for drinks come back to the table - take your order and back to the kitchen. Bring your food order out - either plates stacked on their arm or by using a tray packed with the order, its alot of running.

In the United States the Government taxes the waitress's ticket 8% of the total, which they have to pay taxes on each order taken.

Example - food order for $36.00, taxes are $2.88 out of their pocket..

Most waitress's wages are @ $3.00 and hour which is 1/2 of the minimiun wage.

Patsy

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:01 pm

I just appreciate paying people for work they perform. It isn't about how many steps they take. It is about how they move when they take those steps. In the states they wage for a waitress is not even a third of minimum wage; they either earn their pay or not. I know a woman who worls 3-4 days a week and makes a grand a week doing so usually. She is a damn good waitress though; conversation, smiles, humor, rapport. Sorry if I'm not a cheap skate. Ask AF when she gets back about being a waitress. Cheap people make my bowels irritable.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:04 pm

KB.;655901 wrote: I just appreciate paying people for work they perform.Wow. Tipping really *is* culturally conditioned! You did just use that word "paying" to mean "tipping", didn't you? You don't mean employing, or anything else?

cars · Post by **cars** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:06 pm

spot;655888 wrote: What's a restaurant, cars? How does it differ from a fast food outlet or a café? Would you not treat tipping in each of those three environments differently?
Restaurants have "food servers" that bring meals to your table from the kitchen. (That's my point, it's the same effort for them whether it's with either inexpensive or expensive meal)

Fast Food outlet, is just that, an outlet. Where they sell fast food over the counter. Tipping is usually prohibited by the mgmt!

Cafe's, if food servers serve food to your table, then it's the same as a restaurant!

chonsigirl · Post by **chonsigirl** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:08 pm

Unions do not cover waitresses and other servers that I know of, they work hard for below minimum wage. It is nice to leave them a decent tip, if they work hard for it. Because it is very hard work.

The few times I do eat out, like maybe once a year, I am happy to leave them a good tip. I am happy for the luxury of going out to eat.

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:12 pm

No, I meant paying. When I lived in St. Louis i walked by four bars to get to my bar. I walked by bars with bigger menus, cheaper drinks, longer happy hours, and young, lithe women who thought clothing was an option. I walked to my bar because the first time I went there the bartender asked my name and when I went back two weeks later she remembered it. They asked me how my days as, they listened to my stories, they have sent me letters and notes since I left. They send me t-shirts and call to ask how I am doing. They opened their houses to me on Thanksgiving when I could not get home to see my family. They came and sat with me in the hospital when I was almost dead and refused to call my folks because I didn't want to worry them. They let me know when I want to come visit I have a place to stay. They fed me when I had no money, and they watered me when I was thirsty. I didn't have to tip them. I wanted to pay them. It wasn't a bar to me; they were and are family. I met and fell in love with my Muse there; and the Muse I left to come back home for works in a bar. I work in the service industry; and although I am no longer a commissioned based salesman I remember those days, and wish they were still here. When I worked commission we did not get paid; if we didn't sale we were broke.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:17 pm

Unions vary from State to State

State of Washington is a Union State - then again you pay to join a Union and several Restaurants are not Union, several Restaurants don't want to follow the Union rules etc..

Arizona waitress's and Bar Tenders make 1/2 of mininium wage and work and count on tips.. Arizona is not a Union State - its a Right to Work State..

So you have to smile and be friendly and charming to work your butt off for the $3.00 tip..

Patsy

littlemissgiggle · Post by **littlemissgiggle** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:20 pm

I always feel that tipping should be done when you have received a good service,

like politeness and a smile, and they make you feel appreciated by being there. :-6

if they are stroppy

and just want to hurry your order and seem like they would rather be somewhere else then i would not tip them.

DelicateDominatrix · Post by **DelicateDominatrix** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:23 pm

Personally I leave a tip that I feel is fair.

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:24 pm

SO essentailly your waitresses are a "working poor"?

if they are good at what they do then they aren't.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:24 pm

KB.;655907 wrote: No, I meant paying.I saw the glimmer of a difference in there - you're talking about a bar, not a restaurant. Again it's cultural here. A bartender would feel offended, though he might not be so impolite as to let it show, if offered a tip in the UK. Buying in a drink's acceptable but that's not the same at all, it's an indication that one socializes over the bar and it's two way - the barstaff, at least in the pubs I go to, will occasionally (though less often) buy the next round in acknowledgement that they've had drinks bought in.

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:32 pm

Well, thats me thinking that people know what is in my head when I reply. I don't go to a resteraunt very often, and if I do I sit at the bar. The 13 months I was in St. Louis I never sat anywhere but the bar.

Patsy Warnick · Post by **Patsy Warnick** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:32 pm

being a waitress use to be for alittle extra cash type job - perhaps a part-time.

Tips were never regulated / taxed - once the Government found a loop hole of profit now they tax waitress's & Bar Tender's - its awful..

KB - you may have friends who waitress, and make good money or work at a better establishment - but it takes more than a cute butt and a friendly smile to make good money.. Its alot of hard work - on your feet all day/night - its exhausting. If they could only make that kind of $$ sitting at a desk they'd probably do it..

Patsy

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:42 pm

magenta flame;655922 wrote: Totally agree with that Spot. If a bartender is bored and you''re giving him a good conversation he'll always give you a freebie.

I was a full-time barman for a while. And a shift barman at a couple of clubs, now that I remember - I'd quite forgotten that. Nobody ever had the temerity to proffer a tip in any of those settings. It'd be close to bribery where I come from.

KB. · Post by **KB.** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 1:45 pm

Patsy Warnick;655925 wrote: being a waitress use to be for alittle extra cash type job - perhaps a part-time.

Tips were never regulated / taxed - once the Government found a loop hole of profit now they tax waitress's & Bar Tender's - its awful..

KB - you may have friends who waitress, and make good money or work at a better establishment - but it takes more than a cute butt and a friendly smile to make good money.. Its alot of hard work - on your feet all day/night - its exhausting. If they could only make that kind of $$ sitting at a desk they'd probably do it..

Patsy

It ain't just the cute butt and friendly smile. Al made good money too, and he didn;t have an ass or most of his teeth. I agree with the desk job part though, because most of them would for sure.

Mia · Post by **Mia** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:10 pm

What annoys me is we have carveries in England.You go to the counter and someone gives you the meat you want,then you help yourself to your veg and gravy and carry it to the table, A waitress asks if you want drinks and maybe desert, They bring the bill and expect a tip.Also cab drivers,they cost an arm and a leg but still expect a tip.I give but begrudge,Am I tight? lol

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:28 pm

Mia;655948 wrote: Also cab drivers,they cost an arm and a leg but still expect a tip.I give but begrudge,Am I tight? lol

I'd not give a cabbie a tip if he took a long way round or generally messed up my journey or turned up late for the collection.

Otherwise...add 10% and round up to the next whole pound.

Cabbies, like the table manager (though not like serving staff), have acted as your agent, that's why they're tipped and why the person who carries your food around doesn't.

The only other people I'd tip in England are sacerdotes, hesychasts and monastics.

littlemissgiggle · Post by **littlemissgiggle** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:36 pm

I tip cabbies and i tip my Hairdresser,

i think i will always tip a waiter/waitress no matter where in the world.

unless it a really bad service.

i think the rewards are what makes the job, to add that little smile to your face.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:48 pm

littlemissgiggle;655965 wrote: and i tip my HairdresserGood lord. It must be so long since I went, I can think of no other reason for my omission.

Yes. Barbers. Similar to cabbies and probably an extra pound on top.

In saying they have acted as your agent, I mean that they have each interpreted your inexactly expressed intention and executed it to your satisfaction. Others do the same but they're professional and get paid differently.

cars · Post by **cars** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 2:59 pm

It has been said that in the "olden days", tavern patrons would give "TIPs" when they first went in. To entice servers to wait on them first! :-2

The bigger the TIP, they were first served!

Thus the word TIP-"To Insure Promptness"!

cars · Post by **cars** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:36 pm

Pinky;656010 wrote: I only tip if I'm happy with the service. I really don't think tips should be obligatory, it's something that you should give as a reward and to show appreciation. If it's added on to everything it's not really a tip, just an add on.

I've been at some restaurants where the establishment has the unmitigated gall to automatically "add on an 18% tip" onto the bill!!! Therefore, the server knows the tip is guananteed, no matter what kind of service is rendered! Usually the service there is below par! However, the "food" there is to die for!!! So . . . . . .

(Anyway, this is my "5000th" post!!!! Yeah)

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:41 pm

Pinky;656010 wrote: I only tip if I'm happy with the service. I really don't think tips should be obligatory, it's something that you should give as a reward and to show appreciation. If it's added on to everything it's not really a tip, just an add on.

What do you do in an establishment with 10% Service Charge Included printed on the bottom of the bill?

Assume that the waitress gets it and not tip?

Assume that she doesn't and tip again?

Object to the fixed surcharge and then tip?

Object to the fixed surcharge and then not tip?

Tip but at a reduced rate?

It really should be discressionary and based on level of service - not seen as obligitory.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:07 pm

magenta flame;655882 wrote: I don't understand tipping at all . And I don't do it ..........I'ts the height of bad manners in my opinion. If someones boss doesn't want to pay their staff full wages it's not my problem

Unbelievable !

No its not your problem but your narrow mindset is I would say the real problem.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:38 pm

Nomad;656684 wrote: Unbelievable !

No its not your problem but your narrow mindset is I would say the real problem.
Good lord Nomad - it's an AUSTRALIAN mindset. Tipping etiquette is a manifestation of local custom. The golden rule is do what the locals do. When in Rome act like a Roman. Stop being so damned provincial.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:41 pm

I don't think it's that that came across, Spot, but rather a bad attitude: "I don't wanna pay your wages, so I'm not gonna tip." I do know some parts of the world consider tipping rude, but in the above,I just thought the attitude was sort of rude.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:45 pm

Bryn Mawr;656026 wrote: What do you do in an establishment with 10% Service Charge Included printed on the bottom of the bill?

Don't pay it. Tip if you think it's really worthwhile, else do not. The expectation of these sorts of things is a form of blackmail, IMO. This from a UK perspective. In other parts of the world, it's just part of the bill, which is witheld in exceptional circumstances.

Edit: I'd add to the "Service Charge" bit - complain about it as well as not paying it. Cheek.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:13 pm

RedGlitter;656747 wrote: I don't think it's that that came across, Spot, but rather a bad attitude: "I don't wanna pay your wages, so I'm not gonna tip." I do know some parts of the world consider tipping rude, but in the above,I just thought the attitude was sort of rude.Trust me, that's a very typical view of a middle-of-the-road Australian. I've worked with lots and many are genuinely horrified at the entire notion of the tip, whichever side of the bar they're on. It doesn't mean they don't do it when it's proper to do it, but I've found they do like to talk about it, mostly in amazed tones.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:16 pm

Bill Sikes;656754 wrote: Don't pay it. Tip if you think it's really worthwhile, else do not. The expectation of these sorts of things is a form of blackmail, IMO. This from a UK perspective. In other parts of the world, it's just part of the bill, which is witheld in exceptional circumstances.

Edit: I'd add to the "Service Charge" bit - complain about it as well as not paying it. Cheek.

That would be my attitude - kick up stink about the automatic addition to the bill and then tip the waitress cash in hand.

My wife get kind of upset if I try it though - don't know why?

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:27 pm

Bryn Mawr;656808 wrote: That would be my attitude - kick up stink about the automatic addition to the bill and then tip the waitress cash in hand.

My wife get kind of upset if I try it though - don't know why?

I don't, either, but that is why people succeed in their machinations. Just don't pay a voluntary service charge, or if you do pay it, don't tip. If you've had poor service, don't do either. If it's not a voluntary charge, use the exit.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:37 pm

I am shocked at you cars. It seems to me that you have enjoyed the ability to dine in some very fine restaurants. You are not aware of the effort it requires to serve an appetizer, coctails, steak, salad and desert vs breakfast or a hamburger? Think of your wife having lunch for 3 women and serving tuna sandwiches with chips and ice tea... to you all having a dinner party for 8 at the dining room table.... ask her what the difference is.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:02 pm

I've always been too lazy to figure out percentages but my tips are between $3 and $10 usually. I am always polite to my waiter/tress. I hate people who snap their fingers and talk down to staff. Ugh! They have to be on their feet running back and forth all day, carrying hot food, heavy plates, refilling drinks, carting off your sloppy remains and cleaning up after you.

In essence they SERVE you. Not to tip them in the US is a dang tacky thing. Those tips add up and can make the difference between their kid getting school supplies or not. Or a few extra groceries or not.

cars · Post by **cars** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:32 pm

weeder;656846 wrote: I am shocked at you cars. It seems to me that you have enjoyed the ability to dine in some very fine restaurants. You are not aware of the effort it requires to serve an appetizer, coctails, steak, salad and desert vs breakfast or a hamburger? Think of your wife having lunch for 3 women and serving tuna sandwiches with chips and ice tea... to you all having a dinner party for 8 at the dining room table.... ask her what the difference is.
Did you not read the "PP" tip I reffered to, in the OP? Dinner- if the avg pp meal was $25.00, dinner for 8 w/b $200.00. 20% of that w/b $40.00.

If the avg pp meal was $20.00, then dinner for 8 w/b $160.00. 20% of that w/b $32.00. Using the suggested $5.00 pp tip, times 8 people, w/b $40.00.

(Plus not to mention, we don't do coctails, & or deserts!!)

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:35 pm

I worked as a waitress for 11 months last year. I was fortunate to have other income. I needed the waitressing money. but a short day wasnt going to put me on the street. The food service industry has been a safe haven and opportunity forever... for those with a limited education, and perhaps no other options. I have worked in restaurants with people with phd's as well, because of a dry job market. Last year I was surrounded by women who were praying to God that that night would generate the needed funds for the electric bill... heat bill... groceries.. or rent. No offence to my dear european friends here, but we would all get lost when we heard a british or french accent. It meant... knock yourself out.. for little, or no tip. We all understood that europeans dont tip. But we could not understand why research before the trip here didnt explain that in America servers are paid the smallest amount of money allowed by the government. EX: Last job 2.25

per hour. My average pay check was 36.00 every 2 weeks. Servers here are independant contractors. They are given the location, the product and the clientel. It is really a sales job, on straight commission. The government looks at your total sales for the shift..... calculates that you made an average of 15% in tips.... that is your reported earnings. You pay tax on the calculated tips. Thus the 36.00 pay check.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:35 pm

We have a restaurant that automatically includes a certain percentage for gratuity on a party of 18 or more. I forget the percentage but I still think it's wrong. I don't see the logic behind it. And I find it insulting, frankly.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:38 pm

Weeder said:

No offence to my dear european friends here, but we would all get lost when we heard a british or french accent. It meant... knock yourself out.. for little, or no tip. We all understood that europeans dont tip. But we could not understand why research before the trip here didnt explain that in America servers are paid the smallest amount of money allowed by the government.

I have to say with all this flim-flam going on in other threads about how other countries know so damned much more about America than we do, don't you think these foreign slobs would have known to adapt to our customs and fork out the tip?! What's their excuse this time?

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:40 pm

cars;656889 wrote: Did you not read the "PP" tip I reffered to, in the OP? Dinner- if the avg pp meal was $25.00, dinner for 8 w/b $200.00. 20% of that w/b $40.00.

If the avg pp meal was $20.00, then dinner for 8 w/b $160.00. 20% of that w/b $32.00. Using the suggested $5.00 pp tip, times 8 people, w/b $40.00.

(Plus not to mention, we don't do coctails, & or deserts!!)

Im sorry you dont do cocktails or dessert.

I guess I didnt read the pp or the cc... what do those letters stand for? But I am glad to see that you do leave the appropriate tip. Now... that is the appropriate, and well deserved percentage for exceptional service. In the event of inferior service? No, I do not expect you to tip 15%. 10% or less, or nothing ( which is a huge humiliation) is the result of a job poorly done.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:49 pm

RedGlitter;656894 wrote: We have a restaurant that automatically includes a certain percentage for gratuity on a party of 18 or more. I forget the percentage but I still think it's wrong. I don't see the logic behind it. And I find it insulting, frankly.

Red... They do that because when a server is assigned to a party... they are taken off the floor. They lose the income that would be generated by the turn over of 5 or 6 tables for the evening. They do it because of the possibility that the diners will be people who are unaware, or unwilling to tip at all. Here is a secret though... Many restaurants will leave it up to the server wheter or not to apply that 18%. If you dont apply the tip... which

many people DO find insulting.... often the tip will be higher 20% or better. It is a gamble and one must use their intuition to decide. If you feel its insulting to have a tip added... Imagine this... You take a party of 12. Your service is professional.. you are knowledable, efficent, pleasant and gracious.

The bill is 265.00. The diners leave you a 26.00 tip. For what should have been hopefully a 53.00 tip. Best scenario 60.00. Believe me.. you feel angry, ashamed, confused, and dejected. You want to cry. Down here in Virginia this very often happens when we have " Church Groups" Actually, here, those very groups are a large part of the reason why....18% is added to the bill. Sorry....... its true.