14 million illegal immigrants in the US
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
There are an estimated 14 million illegal immigrants in the US. I suspect - though I don't yet know - that the US economy benefits more than it loses by their presence. I hesitate to suggest that we explore this contention in that it might degenerate into either a fight or, worse yet, a lot of shouting about non-economic aspects of their being in the US, but I offer it as a topic. Has anyone any evidence to put forward one way or the other? If we come to a conclusion I'll be surprised.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
Transcripts, Mike! Not speeches!
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;662966 wrote: There are an estimated 14 million illegal immigrants in the US. I suspect - though I don't yet know - that the US economy benefits more than it loses by their presence. I hesitate to suggest that we explore this contention in that it might degenerate into either a fight or, worse yet, a lot of shouting about non-economic aspects of their being in the US, but I offer it as a topic. Has anyone any evidence to put forward one way or the other? If we come to a conclusion I'll be surprised.
It's immaterial as to it being a benefit to the U.S. or not. Illegal means the law has been broken. Do we ignore the law?
It's immaterial as to it being a benefit to the U.S. or not. Illegal means the law has been broken. Do we ignore the law?
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
Lon;663030 wrote: It's immaterial as to it being a benefit to the U.S. or not. Illegal means the law has been broken. Do we ignore the law?I'm sure we shouldn't. I do think my original query is material though. The opposite is so often claimed to be the case as an argument for eliminating it, and I think I'm right. There are obviously many other reasons to eliminate it besides any economic argument.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;663033 wrote: I'm sure we shouldn't. I do think my original query is material though. The opposite is so often claimed to be the case as an argument for eliminating it, and I think I'm right. There are obviously many other reasons to eliminate it besides any economic argument.
I have no way to prove it, but I suspect that the U.S. gives out more to the illegals in benefits than it receives from whatever taxes they may pay. Much of their economy is a cash system and therefore unreported income. This of course would mean that the rest of the legal part of the work force is subsidizing the illegals.
I have no way to prove it, but I suspect that the U.S. gives out more to the illegals in benefits than it receives from whatever taxes they may pay. Much of their economy is a cash system and therefore unreported income. This of course would mean that the rest of the legal part of the work force is subsidizing the illegals.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
Simple solution, open the border. Freedom of movement and people, you united the states, now unite the Americas.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
Lon;663035 wrote: I have no way to prove it, but I suspect that the U.S. gives out more to the illegals in benefits than it receives from whatever taxes they may pay. Much of their economy is a cash system and therefore unreported income. This of course would mean that the rest of the legal part of the work force is subsidizing the illegals.Then I shall go and find what I can on benefit payments to illegal immigrants, and tax receipts.
You don't think that the work they perform benefits the legal part of the work force in ways other than tax receipts?
You don't think that the work they perform benefits the legal part of the work force in ways other than tax receipts?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
I won't deny that any working person can be helpful and useful but (without having statistics) I don't see how the value of their work could possibly begin to offset the free care they receive.
Opening our borders is most certainly not a solution. You don't solve the problem by giving up.
But sticking to the OP, no, I don't think they earn their keep.
Opening our borders is most certainly not a solution. You don't solve the problem by giving up.
But sticking to the OP, no, I don't think they earn their keep.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
You don't think that the work they perform benefits the legal part of the work force in ways other than tax receipts?
No, I really don't and it's totally unfair to the tens of thousands of Vietnamese, Koreans & Hmongs that came here legally, worked their asses off, paid their taxes and sent their kids to Uni to become contributing members of society.
Much of the agricultural labor intensive jobs have already been eliminated due to mechanization, cotton, almonds, tomatoes are a good example, and I have no doubt that it's just a matter of time before all pickings are mechanized. For the present, the work would get done one way or another without the illegals. I don't believe the U.S. economy would go down the tubes if illegals could not be hired as gardeners, dishwashers, fruit pickers, hotel/motel workers etc. The liberals (democrats) can see a potentially huge voting bloc once illegals eventually become citizens and can vote.
No, I really don't and it's totally unfair to the tens of thousands of Vietnamese, Koreans & Hmongs that came here legally, worked their asses off, paid their taxes and sent their kids to Uni to become contributing members of society.
Much of the agricultural labor intensive jobs have already been eliminated due to mechanization, cotton, almonds, tomatoes are a good example, and I have no doubt that it's just a matter of time before all pickings are mechanized. For the present, the work would get done one way or another without the illegals. I don't believe the U.S. economy would go down the tubes if illegals could not be hired as gardeners, dishwashers, fruit pickers, hotel/motel workers etc. The liberals (democrats) can see a potentially huge voting bloc once illegals eventually become citizens and can vote.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
RedGlitter;663065 wrote: I won't deny that any working person can be helpful and useful but (without having statistics) I don't see how the value of their work could possibly begin to offset the free care they receive.I offer a peer-reviewed academic analysis of the taxing of undocumented immigrants and their cost to social services. Would you like me to press further still and turn up actual numbers, or is this sufficient?
If you feel the paper's wrong, it would help if a statement of equivalent weight showed an alternative viewpoint. I think a paper presented in the Tax Lawyer and the Harvard Latino Law Review should be considered respectable and assumed to be well researched and vetted.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... 84Abstract:
Americans believe that undocumented immigrants are exploiting the United States' economy. The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. [E]very empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite . . .: undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services. Moreover, undocumented immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs. Eighty-five percent of eminent economists surveyed have concluded that undocumented immigrants have had a positive (seventy-four percent) or neutral (eleven percent) impact on the U.S. economy.
Undocumented immigrants, like all U.S. citizens and residents, are required to pay taxes. Despite the historic and strong American opposition to taxation without representation, undocumented immigrants (except in rare and unusual cases) have not enjoyed the right to vote on any local, state or federal tax or other matter for almost eighty years. Nevertheless, each year undocumented immigrants add billions of dollars in sales, excise, property, income and payroll taxes, including Social Security, Medicare and unemployment taxes, to federal, state and local coffers. Hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants go out of their way to file annual federal and state income tax returns.
Yet undocumented immigrants are barred from almost all government benefits, including food stamps, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid, federal housing programs, Supplemental Security Income, Unemployment Insurance, Social Security, Medicare, and the earned income tax credit (EITC). Generally, the only benefits federally required for undocumented immigrants are emergency medical care, subject to financial and category eligibility, and elementary and secondary public education. Many undocumented immigrants will not even access these few critical government services because of their ever-present fear of government officials and deportation.
If you feel the paper's wrong, it would help if a statement of equivalent weight showed an alternative viewpoint. I think a paper presented in the Tax Lawyer and the Harvard Latino Law Review should be considered respectable and assumed to be well researched and vetted.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... 84Abstract:
Americans believe that undocumented immigrants are exploiting the United States' economy. The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. [E]very empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite . . .: undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services. Moreover, undocumented immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs. Eighty-five percent of eminent economists surveyed have concluded that undocumented immigrants have had a positive (seventy-four percent) or neutral (eleven percent) impact on the U.S. economy.
Undocumented immigrants, like all U.S. citizens and residents, are required to pay taxes. Despite the historic and strong American opposition to taxation without representation, undocumented immigrants (except in rare and unusual cases) have not enjoyed the right to vote on any local, state or federal tax or other matter for almost eighty years. Nevertheless, each year undocumented immigrants add billions of dollars in sales, excise, property, income and payroll taxes, including Social Security, Medicare and unemployment taxes, to federal, state and local coffers. Hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants go out of their way to file annual federal and state income tax returns.
Yet undocumented immigrants are barred from almost all government benefits, including food stamps, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid, federal housing programs, Supplemental Security Income, Unemployment Insurance, Social Security, Medicare, and the earned income tax credit (EITC). Generally, the only benefits federally required for undocumented immigrants are emergency medical care, subject to financial and category eligibility, and elementary and secondary public education. Many undocumented immigrants will not even access these few critical government services because of their ever-present fear of government officials and deportation.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
http://usconservatives.about.com/od/the ... aliens.htm
The Criminal Factor: Illegal immigrants are a great danger to America. They are all lawbreakers by virtue of entering America illegally, and when they arrive, a significant number continue to break laws; they steal, rape, murder, form and join gangs, sell drugs, and engage in illegal weapons trade. In 2002, illegals cost the federal prison and court systems $1.6 billion. That doesn't include costs incurred by individual states. The state of Arizona spends $80 million each year incarcerating illegals. "In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens." - City Journal's Heather Mac Donald
The Social Services Factor: Illegals are not American citizens, and yet they sap social services and cost hospitals billions of dollars in unpaid-for health care. In 2002 illegals cost the federal government $2.5 billion in Medicaid, $1.9 billion in food assistance programs, and $2.2 billion in treatment for the uninsured. States near the border suffer the biggest burden. For instance, illegal immigrants' health care costs Arizona alone about $400 million each year. California takes an even bigger hit. "California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal-alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle-class tax base," -FAIR President Dan Stein
The Criminal Factor: Illegal immigrants are a great danger to America. They are all lawbreakers by virtue of entering America illegally, and when they arrive, a significant number continue to break laws; they steal, rape, murder, form and join gangs, sell drugs, and engage in illegal weapons trade. In 2002, illegals cost the federal prison and court systems $1.6 billion. That doesn't include costs incurred by individual states. The state of Arizona spends $80 million each year incarcerating illegals. "In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens." - City Journal's Heather Mac Donald
The Social Services Factor: Illegals are not American citizens, and yet they sap social services and cost hospitals billions of dollars in unpaid-for health care. In 2002 illegals cost the federal government $2.5 billion in Medicaid, $1.9 billion in food assistance programs, and $2.2 billion in treatment for the uninsured. States near the border suffer the biggest burden. For instance, illegal immigrants' health care costs Arizona alone about $400 million each year. California takes an even bigger hit. "California's addiction to 'cheap' illegal-alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state's shrinking middle-class tax base," -FAIR President Dan Stein
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
YZGI;663301 wrote: $1.9 billion in food assistance programsPerfect, Wiseguy. My source said "undocumented immigrants are barred from almost all government benefits, including food stamps" so we have a simple test we can perform. Are those food stamps the same as the food assistance programs? Because if they are I'll go and find the regulations which set up their distribution system and report back. Is that a fair test?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;663306 wrote: Perfect, Wiseguy. My source said "undocumented immigrants are barred from almost all government benefits, including food stamps" so we have a simple test we can perform. Are those food stamps the same as the food assistance programs? Because if they are I'll go and find the regulations which set up their distribution system and report back. Is that a fair test?
That would be interesting to know.
That would be interesting to know.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
I see that Illegal immigrants are not eligable for the food stamp program. However while researching I found a way some are getting around it. The illegals who came over here to have a baby (which is immediately a citizen) recieve food and money assitance. They call these kids anchor babies.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/01 ... _20_07.txt
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/01 ... _20_07.txt
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
You regard those children as illegal immigrants too? We're rapidly redefining terms here if that's the case. They're definitively citizens, last time I asked anyone. What would you like to see done with them? Ejection?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;663326 wrote: You regard those children as illegal immigrants too? We're rapidly redefining terms here if that's the case. They're definitively citizens, last time I asked anyone. What would you like to see done with them? Ejection?
No, I didn't say that.
The mother was here illegally when the child was born, but she is eligible because she now has a legal citizen in her houshold.
No, I didn't say that.
The mother was here illegally when the child was born, but she is eligible because she now has a legal citizen in her houshold.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
YZGI;663329 wrote: No, I didn't say that.
The mother was here illegally when the child was born, but she is eligible because she now has a legal citizen in her houshold.
So what I'm checking for is whether $1.9 billion a year is spent on the food stamp program to illegal immigrant families, and we assume (but we aren't concerned, while looking) that the reason they qualify is that a child was born in the USA and is consequently a citizen. That's right? As a scratch number (at $500 a month) that's 300,000 qualifying bodies, one citizen child's food stamps being claimed for per forty illegal immigrants? Tell me if my numbers make sense so far.
The mother was here illegally when the child was born, but she is eligible because she now has a legal citizen in her houshold.
So what I'm checking for is whether $1.9 billion a year is spent on the food stamp program to illegal immigrant families, and we assume (but we aren't concerned, while looking) that the reason they qualify is that a child was born in the USA and is consequently a citizen. That's right? As a scratch number (at $500 a month) that's 300,000 qualifying bodies, one citizen child's food stamps being claimed for per forty illegal immigrants? Tell me if my numbers make sense so far.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;663331 wrote: So what I'm checking for is whether $1.9 billion a year is spent on the food stamp program to illegal immigrant families, and we assume (but we aren't concerned, while looking) that the reason they qualify is that a child was born in the USA and is consequently a citizen. That's right? As a scratch number (at $500 a month) that's 300,000 qualifying bodies, one citizen child's food stamps being claimed for per forty illegal immigrants? Tell me if my numbers make sense so far.
Go for it.
I really don't have a pony in this race, I just found the other side (so to speak) because you asked for it.
Go for it.
I really don't have a pony in this race, I just found the other side (so to speak) because you asked for it.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;663296 wrote: I offer a peer-reviewed academic analysis of the taxing of undocumented immigrants and their cost to social services. Would you like me to press further still and turn up actual numbers, or is this sufficient?
If you feel the paper's wrong, it would help if a statement of equivalent weight showed an alternative viewpoint. I think a paper presented in the Tax Lawyer and the Harvard Latino Law Review should be considered respectable and assumed to be well researched and vetted.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... 84Abstract:
Americans believe that undocumented immigrants are exploiting the United States' economy. The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. [E]very empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite . . .: undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services. Moreover, undocumented immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs. Eighty-five percent of eminent economists surveyed have concluded that undocumented immigrants have had a positive (seventy-four percent) or neutral (eleven percent) impact on the U.S. economy.
Undocumented immigrants, like all U.S. citizens and residents, are required to pay taxes. Despite the historic and strong American opposition to taxation without representation, undocumented immigrants (except in rare and unusual cases) have not enjoyed the right to vote on any local, state or federal tax or other matter for almost eighty years. Nevertheless, each year undocumented immigrants add billions of dollars in sales, excise, property, income and payroll taxes, including Social Security, Medicare and unemployment taxes, to federal, state and local coffers. Hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants go out of their way to file annual federal and state income tax returns.
Yet undocumented immigrants are barred from almost all government benefits, including food stamps, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid, federal housing programs, Supplemental Security Income, Unemployment Insurance, Social Security, Medicare, and the earned income tax credit (EITC). Generally, the only benefits federally required for undocumented immigrants are emergency medical care, subject to financial and category eligibility, and elementary and secondary public education. Many undocumented immigrants will not even access these few critical government services because of their ever-present fear of government officials and deportation.
Good analysis-------I did some checking on my own and what I dug up from the "Brookings Institute" confirms the Harvard analysis. Still, something makes me feel that they are missing something.
If you feel the paper's wrong, it would help if a statement of equivalent weight showed an alternative viewpoint. I think a paper presented in the Tax Lawyer and the Harvard Latino Law Review should be considered respectable and assumed to be well researched and vetted.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... 84Abstract:
Americans believe that undocumented immigrants are exploiting the United States' economy. The widespread belief is that illegal aliens cost more in government services than they contribute to the economy. This belief is undeniably false. [E]very empirical study of illegals' economic impact demonstrates the opposite . . .: undocumenteds actually contribute more to public coffers in taxes than they cost in social services. Moreover, undocumented immigrants contribute to the U.S. economy through their investments and consumption of goods and services; filling of millions of essential worker positions resulting in subsidiary job creation, increased productivity and lower costs of goods and services; and unrequited contributions to Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance programs. Eighty-five percent of eminent economists surveyed have concluded that undocumented immigrants have had a positive (seventy-four percent) or neutral (eleven percent) impact on the U.S. economy.
Undocumented immigrants, like all U.S. citizens and residents, are required to pay taxes. Despite the historic and strong American opposition to taxation without representation, undocumented immigrants (except in rare and unusual cases) have not enjoyed the right to vote on any local, state or federal tax or other matter for almost eighty years. Nevertheless, each year undocumented immigrants add billions of dollars in sales, excise, property, income and payroll taxes, including Social Security, Medicare and unemployment taxes, to federal, state and local coffers. Hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants go out of their way to file annual federal and state income tax returns.
Yet undocumented immigrants are barred from almost all government benefits, including food stamps, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families, Medicaid, federal housing programs, Supplemental Security Income, Unemployment Insurance, Social Security, Medicare, and the earned income tax credit (EITC). Generally, the only benefits federally required for undocumented immigrants are emergency medical care, subject to financial and category eligibility, and elementary and secondary public education. Many undocumented immigrants will not even access these few critical government services because of their ever-present fear of government officials and deportation.
Good analysis-------I did some checking on my own and what I dug up from the "Brookings Institute" confirms the Harvard analysis. Still, something makes me feel that they are missing something.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
YZGI;663336 wrote: Go for it.
I really don't have a pony in this race, I just found the other side (so to speak) because you asked for it.
Okay, I'm in the ballpark with that last post.
CIS acknowledges that the average value of most benefits received by immigrant-headed households — TANF/general assistance, food stamps, and SSI — fell substantially between 1996 and 2001. For example, the average annual value of food stamp benefits received by immigrant-headed households fell from $216 in 1996 to $104 in 2001.
http://www.cbpp.org/4-14-03wel.htm
One child citizen family member in forty illegal immigrants was what I'd guestimated. That average figure of $104 per year /2001 suggests that at $6000 a year food stamp value for a full entitlement it's one child citizen family member in just under sixty illegal immigrants. Given that I was working in my head and using rough rounding I'm fairly close, given that the totals are for different years anyway.
There's an overwhelming list of references in that paper I turned up, I'm quite happy to mine it for instances and confirmation to my OP suggestion. The main thrust is that much of the work isn't cash-in-hand, it's taxed. Tax payment receipts are a requirement for naturalization and they're valued. Many of the few benefits available aren't taken up for fear of exposure to the government. The net balance of benefit is to the government, financially, not to the illegal immigrants. If we go much further I'll refine that term "illegal immigrant" into sub-categories for exactness.
As an aside, most of them are guilty of a misdemeanor rather than a felony by being in the country.
Are we past this "they cost us" notion yet? Can we go on to "they're criminal scum" or do we still have doubters to persuade?
Here's my next contention to you all to consider while you're deciding on the financial bit.
The large majority of illegal immigrants to the USA are criminal solely by the definition that they jumped the border, outstayed their visa or are working without a work permit.
Do we have any dissenters to that statement?
I really don't have a pony in this race, I just found the other side (so to speak) because you asked for it.
Okay, I'm in the ballpark with that last post.
CIS acknowledges that the average value of most benefits received by immigrant-headed households — TANF/general assistance, food stamps, and SSI — fell substantially between 1996 and 2001. For example, the average annual value of food stamp benefits received by immigrant-headed households fell from $216 in 1996 to $104 in 2001.
http://www.cbpp.org/4-14-03wel.htm
One child citizen family member in forty illegal immigrants was what I'd guestimated. That average figure of $104 per year /2001 suggests that at $6000 a year food stamp value for a full entitlement it's one child citizen family member in just under sixty illegal immigrants. Given that I was working in my head and using rough rounding I'm fairly close, given that the totals are for different years anyway.
There's an overwhelming list of references in that paper I turned up, I'm quite happy to mine it for instances and confirmation to my OP suggestion. The main thrust is that much of the work isn't cash-in-hand, it's taxed. Tax payment receipts are a requirement for naturalization and they're valued. Many of the few benefits available aren't taken up for fear of exposure to the government. The net balance of benefit is to the government, financially, not to the illegal immigrants. If we go much further I'll refine that term "illegal immigrant" into sub-categories for exactness.
As an aside, most of them are guilty of a misdemeanor rather than a felony by being in the country.
Are we past this "they cost us" notion yet? Can we go on to "they're criminal scum" or do we still have doubters to persuade?
Here's my next contention to you all to consider while you're deciding on the financial bit.
The large majority of illegal immigrants to the USA are criminal solely by the definition that they jumped the border, outstayed their visa or are working without a work permit.
Do we have any dissenters to that statement?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
With all due respect to Harvard, I am not convinced.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
RedGlitter;663451 wrote: With all due respect to Harvard, I am not convinced.
Would it help if I produced a footnote or two? It would have their references to their main argument and make things easier to check. They haven't just sprung this statement out of thin air, they're academic analysts with a huge stake in making accurate and supportable statements.
Would it help if I produced a footnote or two? It would have their references to their main argument and make things easier to check. They haven't just sprung this statement out of thin air, they're academic analysts with a huge stake in making accurate and supportable statements.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
I just doubt their statistics is all. I mean, they could say anything and I wouldn't know if it was true or not.
Illegals are still a burden on our society. Harvard's numbers don't change that for me.
Illegals are still a burden on our society. Harvard's numbers don't change that for me.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
RedGlitter;663547 wrote: I just doubt their statistics is all. I mean, they could say anything and I wouldn't know if it was true or not.
Illegals are still a burden on our society. Harvard's numbers don't change that for me.
What would you trust, as far as real numbers are concerned?
What tells you that illegals are still a burden on our society? Is this observational, or gut instinct, or other people's numbers, or faith?
Illegals are still a burden on our society. Harvard's numbers don't change that for me.
What would you trust, as far as real numbers are concerned?
What tells you that illegals are still a burden on our society? Is this observational, or gut instinct, or other people's numbers, or faith?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;663565 wrote: What would you trust, as far as real numbers are concerned?
What tells you that illegals are still a burden on our society? Is this observational, or gut instinct, or other people's numbers, or faith?
I'm really not sure whose numbers I would trust...possibly government numbers although that's amusing as I don't trust the government as many here know...
I tend to go by what I have seen myself...how it is where I live and other places I have been, the times I've been in emergency rooms and doctors offices to see the treatment they've received...I realize that's not a complete observation as I only see my view of it but that's more what I tend to go on, that and (eek) governmental statistics of which I do not have any at hand to post at present. Not trying to argue, just trying to explain myself.
What tells you that illegals are still a burden on our society? Is this observational, or gut instinct, or other people's numbers, or faith?
I'm really not sure whose numbers I would trust...possibly government numbers although that's amusing as I don't trust the government as many here know...
I tend to go by what I have seen myself...how it is where I live and other places I have been, the times I've been in emergency rooms and doctors offices to see the treatment they've received...I realize that's not a complete observation as I only see my view of it but that's more what I tend to go on, that and (eek) governmental statistics of which I do not have any at hand to post at present. Not trying to argue, just trying to explain myself.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
RedGlitter;663573 wrote: I'm really not sure whose numbers I would trust...possibly government numbers although that's amusing as I don't trust the government as many here know...
I tend to go by what I have seen myself...how it is where I live and other places I have been, the times I've been in emergency rooms and doctors offices to see the treatment they've received...I realize that's not a complete observation as I only see my view of it but that's more what I tend to go on, that and (eek) governmental statistics of which I do not have any at hand to post at present. Not trying to argue, just trying to explain myself.
I'd grant that your observation is typical of what's to be seen, but why do you think the cost of that exceeds illegal immigrant tax payments? Nobody's suggested that your observations are inaccurate.
The problem with relying on government figures is that the US government doesn't count a lot of things, deliberately so as not to let people make informed judgments. Like homeless people, if you need a prime example. That's why non-government agencies and academic researchers have to do the counting instead of quoting the government figures.
I tend to go by what I have seen myself...how it is where I live and other places I have been, the times I've been in emergency rooms and doctors offices to see the treatment they've received...I realize that's not a complete observation as I only see my view of it but that's more what I tend to go on, that and (eek) governmental statistics of which I do not have any at hand to post at present. Not trying to argue, just trying to explain myself.
I'd grant that your observation is typical of what's to be seen, but why do you think the cost of that exceeds illegal immigrant tax payments? Nobody's suggested that your observations are inaccurate.
The problem with relying on government figures is that the US government doesn't count a lot of things, deliberately so as not to let people make informed judgments. Like homeless people, if you need a prime example. That's why non-government agencies and academic researchers have to do the counting instead of quoting the government figures.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
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14 million illegal immigrants in the US
Hmm. I suppose I'm just not trusting because there may be an agenda behind it. I don't know what Harvard may have as an agenda but the idea of value being worth more than burden just doesn't "seem" right to me. I don't think I can explain that adequately.
I am also concerned people would see Harvard's study and decide that it's okay to have illegals here because they may not be a burden. That's not to say I want the numbers skewed to meet my desires at all. It's also not a reason I feel the way I do. I'm just offering it up.
I am also concerned people would see Harvard's study and decide that it's okay to have illegals here because they may not be a burden. That's not to say I want the numbers skewed to meet my desires at all. It's also not a reason I feel the way I do. I'm just offering it up.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
I've consistently said that the US should seal its borders immediately and eject everyone who has no valid visa or right of residence to their original country of origin. I can't see why it should be either difficult or criticized. I don't see that as a reason not to know the facts.
It would destroy the reputation of anyone with academic pretensions at Harvard to publish figures which didn't stand scrutiny. The paper I offered earlier was reviewed before publication by other academics who put their own reputation on the honesty of what was being published. These papers are not offered lightly, or without adequate research.
Against that you're relying on gut instinct. Might I suggest that you've been fed a lot of self-interested and biased "news" by organizations who have their own financial interest at stake in saying what they do? That's why it's worth trying to get to some sane facts instead of what's been absorbed over the years as a sort of "everyone knows" truth.
It would destroy the reputation of anyone with academic pretensions at Harvard to publish figures which didn't stand scrutiny. The paper I offered earlier was reviewed before publication by other academics who put their own reputation on the honesty of what was being published. These papers are not offered lightly, or without adequate research.
Against that you're relying on gut instinct. Might I suggest that you've been fed a lot of self-interested and biased "news" by organizations who have their own financial interest at stake in saying what they do? That's why it's worth trying to get to some sane facts instead of what's been absorbed over the years as a sort of "everyone knows" truth.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
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14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;663326 wrote: You regard those children as illegal immigrants too? We're rapidly redefining terms here if that's the case. They're definitively citizens, last time I asked anyone. What would you like to see done with them? Ejection?
They're illegal by proxy.
I would send them and their parents back to whence they came without a second thought.
They're illegal by proxy.
I would send them and their parents back to whence they came without a second thought.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
RedGlitter;663624 wrote: They're illegal by proxy.
I would send them and their parents back to whence they came without a second thought.
So you're quite happy to have a new extension to the class of US citizen with no right of residence in the USA? That would put them in the same category as Puerto Ricans, presumably. No right of representation in Congress, no voting for the Presidency, just citizenship of the USA? It sounds vaguely second class to me.
I would send them and their parents back to whence they came without a second thought.
So you're quite happy to have a new extension to the class of US citizen with no right of residence in the USA? That would put them in the same category as Puerto Ricans, presumably. No right of representation in Congress, no voting for the Presidency, just citizenship of the USA? It sounds vaguely second class to me.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;663821 wrote: So you're quite happy to have a new extension to the class of US citizen with no right of residence in the USA? That would put them in the same category as Puerto Ricans, presumably. No right of representation in Congress, no voting for the Presidency, just citizenship of the USA? It sounds vaguely second class to me.
As far as I am concerned, it seems to me that common sense would dictate that if their parents aren't legal, then neither are they, regardless of their being born here. Why should we reward the parents by giving them exactly what they want?! If we stopped that schtick, I bet we'd not have near as many illegals coming here to drop their sprog on our soil.
As far as I am concerned, it seems to me that common sense would dictate that if their parents aren't legal, then neither are they, regardless of their being born here. Why should we reward the parents by giving them exactly what they want?! If we stopped that schtick, I bet we'd not have near as many illegals coming here to drop their sprog on our soil.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
RedGlitter;663826 wrote: As far as I am concerned, it seems to me that common sense would dictate that if their parents aren't legal, then neither are they, regardless of their being born here.
So long as you don't mind changing the law to reflect what you want then that's okay. The current law of the land says they're citizens of the USA, that's all. There's a worldwide convention that citizenship is a consequence of where you're born, the only other countries where that might not be true are Israel and Saudi Arabia. Most other countries allow children born abroad to citizens to also have citizenship if they apply. I can imagine circumstances where your new rule would give rise to children who have no citizenship in any country at all, born into a stateless limbo.
Never mind - go back to the question of who you're prepared to trust for genuine figures about the cost of illegal immigrants to the country. You seem not to have any possible place that I can go to and look them up. Not government, not academia, not any non-governmental organization. How do we deal with this lack of figures? You're telling me there's no way I can search for information on the subject at all which will give you the information on which to base a decision?
So long as you don't mind changing the law to reflect what you want then that's okay. The current law of the land says they're citizens of the USA, that's all. There's a worldwide convention that citizenship is a consequence of where you're born, the only other countries where that might not be true are Israel and Saudi Arabia. Most other countries allow children born abroad to citizens to also have citizenship if they apply. I can imagine circumstances where your new rule would give rise to children who have no citizenship in any country at all, born into a stateless limbo.
Never mind - go back to the question of who you're prepared to trust for genuine figures about the cost of illegal immigrants to the country. You seem not to have any possible place that I can go to and look them up. Not government, not academia, not any non-governmental organization. How do we deal with this lack of figures? You're telling me there's no way I can search for information on the subject at all which will give you the information on which to base a decision?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
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14 million illegal immigrants in the US
I do realize our laws of citizenship and I would not have a problem if the laws were changed to stop granting citizenship to anchor babies. Yes, it would be weird and would require more thought than what I have given it but I still think it's a viable option to curb some illegals. You've mentioned shutting our doors to all illegals and I completely agree with that. I include the lottery system on that as well. I don't see that it will ever come to that but if it did, I would more than likely support it.
Re: facts and figures. You got me. I'll always admit it if I think I'm mistaken or wrong. Maybe it is because of what I've been fed most of my life, maybe it's from listening to illegals talk about what they get for free.
My cousin (by marriage) married my cousin to get a green card back in the 70s. He came here and she put him through school and taught him English. He now works in a local casino and has brought his family members over here. And they're all illegal except for him. I hear all about the stuff they get. I resent that, even from my family.
But I realize that doesn't offer you figures; that it's just my observation and feeling. In short I guess even though you've seen my gullibility on here in numerous topics, that I am not willing to just accept a Harvard (or anyone's) study at face value. I'm just saying it may or may not be correct in my eyes. I don't have the facts to prove or disprove.
Re: facts and figures. You got me. I'll always admit it if I think I'm mistaken or wrong. Maybe it is because of what I've been fed most of my life, maybe it's from listening to illegals talk about what they get for free.
My cousin (by marriage) married my cousin to get a green card back in the 70s. He came here and she put him through school and taught him English. He now works in a local casino and has brought his family members over here. And they're all illegal except for him. I hear all about the stuff they get. I resent that, even from my family.
But I realize that doesn't offer you figures; that it's just my observation and feeling. In short I guess even though you've seen my gullibility on here in numerous topics, that I am not willing to just accept a Harvard (or anyone's) study at face value. I'm just saying it may or may not be correct in my eyes. I don't have the facts to prove or disprove.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
RedGlitter;663838 wrote: I am not willing to just accept a Harvard (or anyone's) study at face value.Keep going, if we define "face value" I can expect I get beyond that, I just need to know what it means.
The reason there are no government sites with the information laid out in straightforward easily-accessed terms is that the government prefers to show success rather than failure. That, in my opinion, is why there's no government website which shows national homelessness rates (it's an example I keep using because it annoys me intensely that they can get away with not discussing the question at all).
The reason there are no government sites with the information laid out in straightforward easily-accessed terms is that the government prefers to show success rather than failure. That, in my opinion, is why there's no government website which shows national homelessness rates (it's an example I keep using because it annoys me intensely that they can get away with not discussing the question at all).
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
Face value to me is accepting something without question. Accepting it as if it could not possibly be incorrect.
Earlier when I said that I would more believe a governmental study, I probably shouldn't have said that because I'm not so sure that's true. Been thinking about it and well....it's still the government and the government in my opinion is not to be trusted. So I will retract what I said earlier. I am not sure whose figures I would agree with. I have no answer for that.
Earlier when I said that I would more believe a governmental study, I probably shouldn't have said that because I'm not so sure that's true. Been thinking about it and well....it's still the government and the government in my opinion is not to be trusted. So I will retract what I said earlier. I am not sure whose figures I would agree with. I have no answer for that.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
We're left with "my mind is made up and I refuse to consider anything which might change it", perhaps.
Here's a passage where the question of citizenship to children of non-citizen migrant workers in the US was being debated, when the fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution was passed. This argument against granting citizenship to the chinese was rejected, in the end.Are the people of California to remain quiescent while they are being overrun by a flood of immigration of the Mongrel race? Are they to be immigrated out of house and home by the Chinese? I think not¦ there are nations of people with whom theft is a virtue and falsehood a merit¦ it is necessary, a part of the nature of things, that society shall be more or less exclusive. It is utterly and totally impossible to mingle all of the various families of men, from the lowest form of the Hottentot, up to the highest Caucasian, in the same society.Times haven't changed at all, have they.
The last try at bringing in what you're looking for was in 2005, have a look at http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.J.RES.46:
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years after the date of its submission for ratification:
SECTION 1. Any person born after the date of the ratification of this article to a mother and father, neither of whom is a citizen of the United States nor a person who owes permanent allegiance to the United States, shall not be a citizen of the United States or of any State solely by reason of birth in the United States.
except it got shelved.
Here's a passage where the question of citizenship to children of non-citizen migrant workers in the US was being debated, when the fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution was passed. This argument against granting citizenship to the chinese was rejected, in the end.Are the people of California to remain quiescent while they are being overrun by a flood of immigration of the Mongrel race? Are they to be immigrated out of house and home by the Chinese? I think not¦ there are nations of people with whom theft is a virtue and falsehood a merit¦ it is necessary, a part of the nature of things, that society shall be more or less exclusive. It is utterly and totally impossible to mingle all of the various families of men, from the lowest form of the Hottentot, up to the highest Caucasian, in the same society.Times haven't changed at all, have they.
The last try at bringing in what you're looking for was in 2005, have a look at http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.J.RES.46:
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years after the date of its submission for ratification:
SECTION 1. Any person born after the date of the ratification of this article to a mother and father, neither of whom is a citizen of the United States nor a person who owes permanent allegiance to the United States, shall not be a citizen of the United States or of any State solely by reason of birth in the United States.
except it got shelved.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;663855 wrote: We're left with "my mind is made up and I refuse to consider anything which might change it", perhaps.
Here's a passage where the question of citizenship to children of non-citizen migrant workers in the US was being debated, when the fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution was passed. This argument against granting citizenship to the chinese was rejected, in the end.Are the people of California to remain quiescent while they are being overrun by a flood of immigration of the Mongrel race? Are they to be immigrated out of house and home by the Chinese? I think not¦ there are nations of people with whom theft is a virtue and falsehood a merit¦ it is necessary, a part of the nature of things, that society shall be more or less exclusive. It is utterly and totally impossible to mingle all of the various families of men, from the lowest form of the Hottentot, up to the highest Caucasian, in the same society.Times haven't changed at all, have they.
Well, to me, that sounds like it borders on ethnicism. Racism. I'm not against Mexican people coming here illegally because I think there's something wrong with them, I'm against them coming here because they're illegal. Can you offer me some sound reason why they should get the same benefits the rest of us can't? Is there a valid reason?
The last try at bringing in what you're looking for was in 2005, have a look at http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.J.RES.46:
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years after the date of its submission for ratification:
SECTION 1. Any person born after the date of the ratification of this article to a mother and father, neither of whom is a citizen of the United States nor a person who owes permanent allegiance to the United States, shall not be a citizen of the United States or of any State solely by reason of birth in the United States.
except it got shelved.
What's wrong with that, Spot? You say the anchor babies would be without any citizenship, but I say make the law so that they are citizens of whatever country their parents are from. Dump it on their parent country. What's so bad about that?? Can you give me any reason why we should honor anchor babies and their US "citizenship?" And I don't mean out of a sake of humanity, that's a given already but I mean a viable reason.
Here's a passage where the question of citizenship to children of non-citizen migrant workers in the US was being debated, when the fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution was passed. This argument against granting citizenship to the chinese was rejected, in the end.Are the people of California to remain quiescent while they are being overrun by a flood of immigration of the Mongrel race? Are they to be immigrated out of house and home by the Chinese? I think not¦ there are nations of people with whom theft is a virtue and falsehood a merit¦ it is necessary, a part of the nature of things, that society shall be more or less exclusive. It is utterly and totally impossible to mingle all of the various families of men, from the lowest form of the Hottentot, up to the highest Caucasian, in the same society.Times haven't changed at all, have they.
Well, to me, that sounds like it borders on ethnicism. Racism. I'm not against Mexican people coming here illegally because I think there's something wrong with them, I'm against them coming here because they're illegal. Can you offer me some sound reason why they should get the same benefits the rest of us can't? Is there a valid reason?
The last try at bringing in what you're looking for was in 2005, have a look at http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.J.RES.46:
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years after the date of its submission for ratification:
SECTION 1. Any person born after the date of the ratification of this article to a mother and father, neither of whom is a citizen of the United States nor a person who owes permanent allegiance to the United States, shall not be a citizen of the United States or of any State solely by reason of birth in the United States.
except it got shelved.
What's wrong with that, Spot? You say the anchor babies would be without any citizenship, but I say make the law so that they are citizens of whatever country their parents are from. Dump it on their parent country. What's so bad about that?? Can you give me any reason why we should honor anchor babies and their US "citizenship?" And I don't mean out of a sake of humanity, that's a given already but I mean a viable reason.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
RedGlitter;663861 wrote: What's wrong with that, Spot? You say the anchor babies would be without any citizenship, but I say make the law so that they are citizens of whatever country their parents are from. Dump it on their parent country. What's so bad about that?? Can you give me any reason why we should honor anchor babies and their US "citizenship?" And I don't mean out of a sake of humanity, that's a given already but I mean a viable reason.You're relying on the country of origin of one of the parents to allow a right of return to someone not born in that country. Most do, some don't. If you want to make this new law specific to Mexicans then there's no problem about creating a stateless person because Mexico at the moment would accept that child and allow it Mexican citizenship, I think. What will you do where the foreign country says no? There are two ways of getting citizenship, by place of birth and by descent. If one country refuses citizenship by birth and the other refuses by descent the child's got no passport and no means of getting one.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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RedGlitter
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14 million illegal immigrants in the US
I wouldn't make this specific only to Mexicans. That would be wrong. I would make it specific to anyone coming here illegally. That's my complaint, it's just that at present, Mexicans are at the forefront of the discussion.
I don't know how we'd handle it. Cut off trade or aid to countries not willing to accept anchor babies? How about that for a start? I'm sure there are repercussions to that as much as there would be repercussions to anything we tried but it would have to start somewhere. I would like to see the US government say "no more" but that's hardly likely the way I see it.
Please don't think I'm heartless or that I don't like children.Or that I have no humanity. I'm not taking this from the humanity angle.
It only makes sense to me that if we'd start taking away the appeal of coming here illegally, cut out all the free benefits and child freebies, that it would make a huge difference. We have something they want, so let's remove it.
I don't know how we'd handle it. Cut off trade or aid to countries not willing to accept anchor babies? How about that for a start? I'm sure there are repercussions to that as much as there would be repercussions to anything we tried but it would have to start somewhere. I would like to see the US government say "no more" but that's hardly likely the way I see it.
Please don't think I'm heartless or that I don't like children.Or that I have no humanity. I'm not taking this from the humanity angle.
It only makes sense to me that if we'd start taking away the appeal of coming here illegally, cut out all the free benefits and child freebies, that it would make a huge difference. We have something they want, so let's remove it.
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Accountable
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14 million illegal immigrants in the US
I'm comfortable granting citizenship upon conception. If a non-citizen parent can show documentation that they were in the US legally during the reasonably defined time window of conception, then the child is granted citizenship, even before birth.
It'd clear up a lot of controversial issues.
It'd clear up a lot of controversial issues.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
RedGlitter;663886 wrote: It only makes sense to me that if we'd start taking away the appeal of coming here illegally, cut out all the free benefits and child freebies, that it would make a huge difference. We have something they want, so let's remove it.That's far easier. What they want are the job opportunities. Make it illegal for employers to employ non-citizens who have no work permit, and prosecute employers who do.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Accountable
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14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;662966 wrote: There are an estimated 14 million illegal immigrants in the US. I suspect - though I don't yet know - that the US economy benefits more than it loses by their presence. I hesitate to suggest that we explore this contention in that it might degenerate into either a fight or, worse yet, a lot of shouting about non-economic aspects of their being in the US, but I offer it as a topic. Has anyone any evidence to put forward one way or the other? If we come to a conclusion I'll be surprised.
I've no doubt that certain parts of our economy benefit greatly from hiring criminals and shifting the costs of employing legal residents to other tax-based services, such as unemployment or welfare. This can make it look like the entire economy benefits. However, many of the same people that cry out to let the criminals stay because of their beneficial effects also cry out to help our poor, unemployed, and underinsured, as if there is no connection.
On the balance, no I don't believe there is a net benefit to our economy as a whole.
I've no doubt that certain parts of our economy benefit greatly from hiring criminals and shifting the costs of employing legal residents to other tax-based services, such as unemployment or welfare. This can make it look like the entire economy benefits. However, many of the same people that cry out to let the criminals stay because of their beneficial effects also cry out to help our poor, unemployed, and underinsured, as if there is no connection.
On the balance, no I don't believe there is a net benefit to our economy as a whole.
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RedGlitter
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14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;663912 wrote: That's far easier. What they want are the job opportunities. Make it illegal for employers to employ non-citizens who have no work permit, and prosecute employers who do.
I fully agree with that.
Morning Accountable!
I was hoping you'd come into this thread!
I fully agree with that.
Morning Accountable!
I was hoping you'd come into this thread!
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Accountable
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14 million illegal immigrants in the US
RedGlitter;663914 wrote: I fully agree with that.
Morning Accountable!
I was hoping you'd come into this thread!
G'morning. I don't know how I missed it this long.
Morning Accountable!
I was hoping you'd come into this thread!
G'morning. I don't know how I missed it this long.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
Accountable;663913 wrote: I've no doubt that certain parts of our economy benefit greatly from hiring criminals and shifting the costs of employing legal residents to other tax-based services, such as unemployment or welfare. This can make it look like the entire economy benefits. However, many of the same people that cry out to let the criminals stay because of their beneficial effects also cry out to help our poor, unemployed, and underinsured, as if there is no connection.
On the balance, no I don't believe there is a net benefit to our economy as a whole.
Do you object to employment being allowed to anyone who's committed a misdemeanor? We're not talking felony here, neither are we talking convicted. You keep using criminal as a synonym for illegal immigrant, I wonder whether you really object to "hiring criminals" in general. Should employers be barred from employing anyone with a criminal record? Should illegal immigrants be treated as though they'd been convicted if they haven't been? I repeat my view that no illegal immigrant should be allowed to stay but nobody seems to be making an effort to remove them from the country, just in case "the same people that cry out to let the criminals stay" is being applied to me.
On the balance, no I don't believe there is a net benefit to our economy as a whole.
Do you object to employment being allowed to anyone who's committed a misdemeanor? We're not talking felony here, neither are we talking convicted. You keep using criminal as a synonym for illegal immigrant, I wonder whether you really object to "hiring criminals" in general. Should employers be barred from employing anyone with a criminal record? Should illegal immigrants be treated as though they'd been convicted if they haven't been? I repeat my view that no illegal immigrant should be allowed to stay but nobody seems to be making an effort to remove them from the country, just in case "the same people that cry out to let the criminals stay" is being applied to me.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
spot;663918 wrote: Do you object to employment being allowed to anyone who's committed a misdemeanor? We're not talking felony here, neither are we talking convicted. You keep using criminal as a synonym for illegal immigrant, I wonder whether you really object to "hiring criminals" in general. Should employers be barred from employing anyone with a criminal record? Should illegal immigrants be treated as though they'd been convicted if they haven't been?I object to employment being allowed to anyone not legally allowed employment. I presume that your phrase "anyone who's committed a misdemeanor" applies to those convicted of a misdemeanor. Those convicted have been dealt with and are no longer criminals. I don't believe anyone should hire a person currently involved in committing a misdemeanor, no. Society would be better served by having that person, that criminal, arrested.
spot wrote: I repeat my view that no illegal immigrant should be allowed to stay but nobody seems to be making an effort to remove them from the country, just in case "the same people that cry out to let the criminals stay" is being applied to me.Not at all.
spot wrote: I repeat my view that no illegal immigrant should be allowed to stay but nobody seems to be making an effort to remove them from the country, just in case "the same people that cry out to let the criminals stay" is being applied to me.Not at all.
14 million illegal immigrants in the US
Lon;663030 wrote: It's immaterial as to it being a benefit to the U.S. or not. Illegal means the law has been broken. Do we ignore the law?
It does provide a reason why the authorities are ignoring the law so it's not quite immaterial.
It does provide a reason why the authorities are ignoring the law so it's not quite immaterial.