Can we pray for the DEAD ?

amale · Post by **amale** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:38 am

This is one of the question that confuses me always.

Should we pray for the dead, if so why,

can our prayer help the dead will their sins be forgiven ? :-4

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:39 pm

amale :-6

I believe it appropriate to remember the dead in prayer. We give thanks for their life and work among us and hope that they have found their rest with the saints in light. Everything else is up to God.

Shalom

Ted :-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:06 am

My experience with the dead is that they are pleased when you think of them.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:38 pm

Both good points.

Shalom

Ted :-6

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:25 am

What a strange question. What do you think happens after they are dead?

Bones87 · Post by **Bones87** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:28 am

koan wrote: My experience with the dead is that they are pleased when you think of them.

So is from personal experience then?

Post by **spot** » Wed May 04, 2005 10:48 am

None of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. As we remain the Lord's, death is a matter of irrelevance when it comes to relationships. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. If you love, if you are loved, you can always pray, knowing that the prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

devist8me · Post by **devist8me** » Wed May 04, 2005 11:08 am

spot wrote: None of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. As we remain the Lord's, death is a matter of irrelevance when it comes to relationships. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. If you love, if you are loved, you can always pray, knowing that the prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.
Excellent words Spot. I like it a lot!

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:46 pm

Bones87 wrote: So is from personal experience then?

Yup.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Wed May 04, 2005 5:51 pm

TW2005 wrote: I think they're doing what ever they want. If someone wants to play golf everyday after death, then they get to do that. If someone wants to sit around and drink beer and smoke.....all day and night, then they get to.(David) I think it's a pardise of your own liking when you die.It's Official: I'm being stalked!

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed May 04, 2005 6:48 pm

I've found that what a dead soul is 'doing' is largely dependent on whether or not they have resolved their issues here. Sounds cheesy, I know. I have 'talked' to a long deceased soul who remained here and was malevolent because he believed he was evil and that the devil owned his soul. It took some convincing to help him move on and many boundaries were crossed. I had to give him the boot for a while and stop talking to him. He is better now though still not moved on. He is trying to make ammends at this point but has realised that he was not evil. Just misguided. The power of belief is incredible. I have also talked to spirits that have moved on and come back to offer guidance.

Talking to ghosts is not all it's cracked up to be. Most of the time they are full of bs and listen to reason no better than the average person. Not well at all.

David813 · Post by **David813** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:30 pm

koan wrote: I've found that what a dead soul is 'doing' is largely dependent on whether or not they have resolved their issues here. Sounds cheesy, I know. I have 'talked' to a long deceased soul who remained here and was malevolent because he believed he was evil and that the devil owned his soul. It took some convincing to help him move on and many boundaries were crossed. I had to give him the boot for a while and stop talking to him. He is better now though still not moved on. He is trying to make ammends at this point but has realised that he was not evil. Just misguided. The power of belief is incredible. I have also talked to spirits that have moved on and come back to offer guidance.

Talking to ghosts is not all it's cracked up to be. Most of the time they are full of bs and listen to reason no better than the average person. Not well at all.Very weird! Ummmm, I've never seen or spoken to a ghost before. Let alone counsel one! I don't discount the possibility of the supernatural, but this is genuinely scary! Koan I hope it's just medication. Otherwise I suggest you consider moving!

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed May 04, 2005 8:48 pm

Unfortunately it is a relative. I told him he doesn't pay me well enough for psychology. :wah: It was scary at one point. He seems much better now. He doesn't bug me but is there when I think about him.

When I ignored him the first time he went to my daughter who walked into the room and handed me a 'message' signed with his name on the bottom. Automatic writing. She had no idea who it was or why he wrote all those 'terrible things'. That's when I had to learn how to give them the boot.

jahamaa · Post by **jahamaa** » Wed May 04, 2005 9:10 pm

amale wrote: This is one of the question that confuses me always.

Should we pray for the dead, if so why,

can our prayer help the dead will their sins be forgiven ? :-4

Couldn't hurt.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Thu May 05, 2005 2:11 pm

koan wrote: My experience with the dead is that they are pleased when you think of them.That's the Spirit.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Sun May 22, 2005 2:05 am

Who ever started that craze? Some pope no doubt seeking some extra dough for his purse. I read some where in the bible that the dead know nothing?

beyelzu · Post by **beyelzu** » Sun May 22, 2005 2:19 am

as I am a metaphysical naturalist.

I have to say, we come into this world alone, we go out alone.

between those two times is our everything.

There is no god, no devils, no winged angels in the nonexistent heaven above, there is no soul to go anywhere when we are dead.

So, praying for the departed is for the people who are still alive.

Can we Pray for the dead?

If it makes you feel better, by all means do so. Remembrance and honor through prayer are certainly laudable effects of the prayer.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun May 22, 2005 2:29 am

as I am a metaphysical naturalist.
Don't know what I am. It's metaphysical though.

I have to say, we come into this world alone, we go out alone.
Can't refute that.

between those two times is our everything.
As far as the ego is concerned. I would agree.

There is no god, no devils, no winged angels in the nonexistent heaven above, there is no soul to go anywhere when we are dead.
I've often quarreled about which is the soul and which is the spirit. In essence though, I disagree with the soullessness.

So, praying for the departed is for the people who are still alive.
Absolutely. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Can we Pray for the dead?

If it makes you feel better, by all means do so. Remembrance and honor through prayer are certainly laudable effects of the prayer.
A nicely worded sentiment. Welcome to the Garden, bey. Good to see you here. (even without your sheath)

beyelzu · Post by **beyelzu** » Sun May 22, 2005 2:38 am

koan wrote: Don't know what I am. It's metaphysical though.
If you arent familiar with the term metaphsyical naturalist, you can look it up on iidb. but basically I accept that science is the best tool for understanding the universe and that the universe is all that there is. I dont believe in anything that cant not be experienced and measured by science, I dont believe in the supernatural.

Not even the parts that I really wish were so.

koan wrote:

I've often quarreled about which is the soul and which is the spirit. In essence though, I disagree with the soullessness.

agree to disagree I suppose. I wish that there was a soul and some chance for immortality, but there just isnt any reliable proof of such.

koan wrote:

A nicely worded sentiment. Welcome to the Garden, bey. Good to see you here. (even without your sheath)
thank you, I thought that my avatar might be deemed a tad too offensive here, but if I can find it I do have a pg version. and it will be good for a laugh for you.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun May 22, 2005 2:50 am

beyelzu wrote: If you arent familiar with the term metaphsyical naturalist, you can look it up on iidb. but basically I accept that science is the best tool for understanding the universe and that the universe is all that there is. I dont believe in anything that cant not be experienced and measured by science, I dont believe in the supernatural.

Not even the parts that I really wish were so.

agree to disagree I suppose. I wish that there was a soul and some chance for immortality, but there just isnt any reliable proof of such.

thank you, I thought that my avatar might be deemed a tad too offensive here, but if I can find it I do have a pg version. and it will be good for a laugh for you.

I've encountered metaphysical naturalists before. I've studied and practiced metaphysics for some time so I'm fond of the first part of the phrase.

I've spoken with "souls" that are no longer in their bodies but you are welcome to think me insane.

There's a PG version?

beyelzu · Post by **beyelzu** » Sun May 22, 2005 2:59 am

koan wrote: I've encountered metaphysical naturalists before. I've studied and practiced metaphysics for some time so I'm fond of the first part of the phrase.

I've spoken with "souls" that are no longer in their bodies but you are welcome to think me insane.

There's a PG version?
sorry for the assumption of ignorance on my part.

I am used to getting a what the hell are you talking about when I use the term metaphysical naturalist. Lots of people get hung up by the metaphysical part and think I am some sort of mystic.

I think you are mistaken, I dont think you are insane.

Many moons ago, farren over at freethought made my avatar into a pink smoking bunny so I could use it at christian forums, I still got banned there though. I think it was based on my posts at ff rather than my posts at cf. They never warned me or anything they just ip banned me.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun May 22, 2005 3:06 am

bring on the bunny!

I'd be happy to pray for your banned soul at the other forums.

Uptight bunch of folk they must be. We need a good there-is-no-god member here again. They all left.

beyelzu · Post by **beyelzu** » Sun May 22, 2005 3:33 am

it will be interesting to be in the minority here.

most of my post history is at iidb and ff

the bunny is up over there.

I have moved since I was ip banned and have a new service provider so I can view cf now, but I dont really want to post there.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun May 22, 2005 4:04 am

he's such a cute bunny.

sucks that it went down that way (

)

Attached files

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun May 22, 2005 7:03 pm

beyelzu :-6

Welcome. As a Christian Pluralist I have no problem with your bunny.

Though I must confess I disagree, obviously, with your position on God. However we muct each walk our own path.

It is interesting with the development of quantum theory even scientiists are beginning to consider the reality of the Divine..

At any rate my experience has convinced me of the reality of the Divine so that is where I hang my hat.

Shalom

Ted :-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun May 22, 2005 8:24 pm

Ted wrote: beyelzu :-6

Welcome. As a Christian Pluralist I have no problem with your bunny.

Though I must confess I disagree, obviously, with your position on God. However we muct each walk our own path.

It is interesting with the development of quantum theory even scientiists are beginning to consider the reality of the Divine..

At any rate my experience has convinced me of the reality of the Divine so that is where I hang my hat.

Shalom

Ted :-6

As long as you don't have a problem with his bunny it's all good. :wah:

beyelzu · Post by **beyelzu** » Sun May 22, 2005 9:12 pm

Ted wrote: beyelzu :-6

Welcome. As a Christian Pluralist I have no problem with your bunny.

Though I must confess I disagree, obviously, with your position on God. However we muct each walk our own path.

It is interesting with the development of quantum theory even scientiists are beginning to consider the reality of the Divine..

At any rate my experience has convinced me of the reality of the Divine so that is where I hang my hat.

Shalom

Ted :-6
Well, Ted, I think you might have more of a problem with what the bunny was based on, but it's all good. It is unsurprising that you disagree with me concerning god, I after all dont believe in a central tenet of your view of the universe. I love discussing religion, problem of evil, free will defense, special pleading, look I just simulated a whole debate on the xian omnimax god.

quantum theory may very well imly that there is no ultimate observer and thus no god in the real universe however. btw, I know of no quantum physicists that have been moved by their discoveries to become christian, I dont know that there arent any. but quantum physics as means for christian recruitment seems unlikely to me.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon May 23, 2005 4:41 pm

beyelzu :-6

I know of some scientists who do not only believe in God but are religious themselves: Paul Davies. Charles Birch in Australia, Arthur Peacock, Donald Gordon, David Bohm, Roger Penrose, J. C. Polkinghorne, Rupert Sheldrake etc. Not all of course are the result of Quantum Theory. However there are many brilliant men and women equally as well educated and equally as brilliant who happen to agree with them.

Now I am well aware that a list of scholars does not make for a difinitive proof but nonetheless they do add weight to what has been found and said by many. In fact I believe it was Paul Davies who said that it is equally absurd to believe in evolution as it is to believe in creations. Yet he himself believes in the Divine.

The problem with many is of course their worship of the Godhead of Science which is purely a human construct and not perfect in itself.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon May 23, 2005 6:31 pm

Beyelzu :-6

On the contrary quantum theory is pointing ever closer to some sort of Divinity.

But any argument for or against the existence of God is doomed to failure because it results in purely circular reasoning on both sides.

I am convinced of the reality of the Divine based on many factors including my own experiences.

Shalom

Ted :-6

beyelzu · Post by **beyelzu** » Tue May 24, 2005 2:22 am

alright, evolution is accepted scientific fact.

science is the best method for understanding the universe.

evolution is a theory and fact, naming some random scientists who dont accept evolution wont really impress me much. for every biologist that believes in crackpot young earth creationism or its dress up counterpart intelligent design there exists hundreds if not thousands on the other side.

now if you want to debate evolution, I have no problem with doing so. but evolution and creationism are apples and oranges.

btw, the flawed human construct of science has done a far superior job at explaining how the universe works than the allegedly divinely inspired Bible has.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun May 29, 2005 7:12 pm

beyelzu :-6

You really are in left field. You clearly have no idea concerning theological trends and understandings.

Evolution, of course its a fact. Science has done a superior job at explaining the universe. Of course. But that is not religions pervue in any case.

Debate evolution? Why? It is a fact.

I would suggest you do a little research.

BTW. Among the scientists I mentioned I don't believe any accept creationism. One is a mathematical physicist. One is a well recognized biologist, another is a molecular biologist etc. You really are not in tune with things today. You are still living in the fall-redemption theology and theism. We're way past that.

Shalom

Ted :-6

Frederick · Post by **Frederick** » Mon May 30, 2005 3:39 pm

amale wrote: This is one of the question that confuses me always.

Should we pray for the dead, if so why,

can our prayer help the dead will their sins be forgiven ? :-4

As a practising Christian, (Methodist) I find this an area of uncertainty and conflicting beliefs. Most Catholics believe in purgatory, a kind of halfway house where the soles of recently departed are forced to atone for their sins. It is thier belief that it is possible, through prayers, to release them from bondage so that they may finally rest in everlasting peace. I find nothing in the Bible to support this. It is my personal conviction that we shall all be forced to make an account of our actions before God, and when that day comes, all the prayers in the world will be of no avail. Pray for the LIVING, that God will enter their hearts, while there is still time for Him to do something about it. He entered into mine, and has changed my life forever.

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Mon May 30, 2005 4:07 pm

Frederick wrote: As a practising Christian, (Methodist) I find this an area of uncertainty and conflicting beliefs. Most Catholics believe in purgatory, a kind of halfway house where the soles of recently departed are forced to atone for their sins. It is thier belief that it is possible, through prayers, to release them from bondage so that they may finally rest in everlasting peace. I find nothing in the Bible to support this. It is my personal conviction that we shall all be forced to make an account of our actions before God, and when that day comes, all the prayers in the world will be of no avail. Pray for the LIVING, that God will enter their hearts, while there is still time for Him to do something about it. He entered into mine, and has changed my life forever.Good on you Frederick.

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 30, 2005 4:21 pm

I haven't read the entire thread. I thought the title spoke for itself so I am going to offer my opinion and hope no one tells me I'm a stupid F**K. We can pray for any person we want - living or dead. My father died 44 years ago and sometimes when life gets bad - I pray for him to watch over me and it makes me feel a little safer. My Grandma told me - right before she died - that "they" were there to help her over to the other side. I believed her - more important - she believed it -and it helped her in meeting death with serenity and calm.

I would not pray for some depraved lunatic to get redemption in the afterlife.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon May 30, 2005 7:44 pm

navalleyvee :-6

If you find comfort and peace in it then it can do no harm but is a positive act. Go for it. After all prayer is "talking with God" and that cannot be negative.

Shalom

Ted :-6

BTS · Post by **BTS** » Mon May 30, 2005 7:48 pm

Ted wrote: navalleyvee :-6

If you find comfort and peace in it then it can do no harm but is a positive act. Go for it. After all prayer is "talking with God" and that cannot be negative.

Shalom

Ted :-6
Can You Baptize for the dead?

Just wondering?

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 30, 2005 7:53 pm

Ted wrote: navalleyvee :-6

If you find comfort and peace in it then it can do no harm but is a positive act. Go for it. After all prayer is "talking with God" and that cannot be negative.

Shalom

Ted :-6

I've only heard of you as the resident religious scholar - I find your words to be very compassionate - not hard nosed. Thanks

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon May 30, 2005 7:58 pm

nvalleyvee :-6

Scholar? No, simply a humble servant of my Lord on my path.

I do have a fairly substantial background in translation and interpretation etc. But a scholar I am not. I am also fairly up to date on the latest scholarly writings and I continue to take courses at the Vancouver School of Theology.

You're welcome.

Shalom

Ted :-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Mon May 30, 2005 8:10 pm

Resident FG religious scholar was something another person told me. I look forward to your posts - I am too new to have a sense of your opinion. I am stupid when it comes to religious matters - not spiritual - so I am happy to be educated. You say translation and interpretation - that is sooooo tempting a subject - not many people know it.

Question - probably stupid - I have heard that Jesus texts were uncovered. It was said - in those texts that he said - "lift a rock and I will be there". I'm looking for something that is not Biblical myth. Don't get me wrong - I truly believe Jesus was a man of great character, philosophy, and design. I think that about most of the prophets in the past 2000 years. Man needs a design to living that doesn't involve killing.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Mon May 30, 2005 8:30 pm

nvalleyvee :-6

No question is stupid. Each is an attempt to learn more and that is most important.

I will describe for you the nature of the Bible and its origins as I see it and I have the support of many scholars on this.

The Bible is a book made up of: myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, short story, fiction, philosophy, theology and has kernels of history spread throughout. It is not a history book and was never intended to be read as such. Mary Chase

The Pentateuch, the first five books, were passed on orally for hundreds of years. The stories include those borrowed from other early cultures such as Mesopotamian. Mary Chase

The Bible is written in an ancient Hebrew style that included both writing and interpreting. It is called midrash and it makes a great deal of use of metaphor. John Spong

None of the above takes away from the profound truths taught in the Bible. There are many ways to teach truth and something does not have to be historical to do that. The Bible becomes for Christians the "Word of God" by virtue of the fact that God speaks to Christians through the Bible not by virtue of its authorship. It is man's response to his experiences of the Divine. Hans Kung

Jesus was indeed an historical person who was ultimately crucified because he was a profound social disturber and the authorities feared that he would start a revolution. However, that was not his intent as he said his kingdom was not of this world. John D. Crossan

The crucifixion stories are midrashic. We do not really know what happened in detail. However, we have the experiences of millions of folks down through the millenia, of the Risen Christ. This is something that I cannot deny as I to have had that experience several times. John Spong

What really counts is not dogma or doctrine. They are human constructs and are basically unimportant. What really counts is that we develop a living, transforming relationship with God and one does not have to be just a Christian to do this. Marcus Borg.

I am a Christian Pluralist. This means that I accept the validity of all the great faiths of the world and not just my own. Each faith is man's response to and search for the Divine and a Just God will not discount these folks. Michael Ingham

I hope this answers some of your questions. I don't mind answering. The name at the end of each paragraph refers to the scholar that is a major developer of the preceeding information though they are not direct quotes. If page numbers are required I can give them as well as titles.

Shalom

Ted

:-6

beyelzu · Post by **beyelzu** » Tue May 31, 2005 10:24 pm

Ted wrote: beyelzu :-6

You really are in left field. You clearly have no idea concerning theological trends and understandings.

gee ted, I really appreciate your condescending tone. could you do it some more?

Evolution, of course its a fact. Science has done a superior job at explaining the universe. Of course. But that is not religions pervue in any case.

Debate evolution? Why? It is a fact.

I would suggest you do a little research. gee thanks.

BTW. Among the scientists I mentioned I don't believe any accept creationism. One is a mathematical physicist. One is a well recognized biologist, another is a molecular biologist etc. You really are not in tune with things today. You are still living in the fall-redemption theology and theism. We're way past that.

Shalom

Ted :-6and no ted we arent past it.

here in georgia the state superintendent of schools suggested taking the word evolution out of science text books. cobb county, ga actually put a warning label on science textbooks saying that evolution was just a theory. various school boards around the country are considering putting intelligent design into the curriculums

now, if you dont want to argue evolution that is cool, just one less person I have to convince of the obvious truth.

let's move on to that god question.

first off, burden of proof lies with the theist as he has the positive claim. what is your proof of god's existence.

something testable would be cool.

as a random aside, three scientists does not a trend make.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:35 pm

beyelzu :-6

You are certainly correct about Georgia. That is too bad. It is changing. Unfortunately the change is far too slow.

Actually I am not a theist. I am a panentheist and please note the spelling of that word it is not "pantheist"

As far as proof goes: I have all I need.

As far as the number of scientists I mentioned, I believe it was more than three. I could have gone on but it is obvious that I could mention a hundred and you would not find that acceptable. The fact of the matter is there are well recognized scientists who happen to accept the reality of the Divine. Of course that does not prove the point. However, neither do they worship at the Godhead of science or rationality which has its own limitations.

Shalom

Ted :-6

capt_buzzard · Post by **capt_buzzard** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:53 pm

This is a load of cobblers. You die and that's it. There is NO life after it. Its the End of Your World.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:00 pm

Capt :-6

You may well be correct but I don't believe so.

On the other hand if we look at the central message of Yeshua of Nazareth and were to follow it as a large group it would indeed make the world a better place to live.

Anyway as I said in the other thread you might find the writings of Matthew Fox a breath of fresh air in all of this. I don't at this point refer to his 22 questions but on the site or some of his shorter writings or essays. His books are fantastic and I am planning to spend a week with him this summer. I can't resist.

Shalom

Ted :-6

nvalleyvee · Post by **nvalleyvee** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:24 pm

Ted wrote: nvalleyvee :-6

No question is stupid. Each is an attempt to learn more and that is most important.

I will describe for you the nature of the Bible and its origins as I see it and I have the support of many scholars on this.

The Bible is a book made up of: myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, short story, fiction, philosophy, theology and has kernels of history spread throughout. It is not a history book and was never intended to be read as such. Mary Chase

The Pentateuch, the first five books, were passed on orally for hundreds of years. The stories include those borrowed from other early cultures such as Mesopotamian. Mary Chase

The Bible is written in an ancient Hebrew style that included both writing and interpreting. It is called midrash and it makes a great deal of use of metaphor. John Spong

None of the above takes away from the profound truths taught in the Bible. There are many ways to teach truth and something does not have to be historical to do that. The Bible becomes for Christians the "Word of God" by virtue of the fact that God speaks to Christians through the Bible not by virtue of its authorship. It is man's response to his experiences of the Divine. Hans Kung

Jesus was indeed an historical person who was ultimately crucified because he was a profound social disturber and the authorities feared that he would start a revolution. However, that was not his intent as he said his kingdom was not of this world. John D. Crossan

The crucifixion stories are midrashic. We do not really know what happened in detail. However, we have the experiences of millions of folks down through the millenia, of the Risen Christ. This is something that I cannot deny as I to have had that experience several times. John Spong

What really counts is not dogma or doctrine. They are human constructs and are basically unimportant. What really counts is that we develop a living, transforming relationship with God and one does not have to be just a Christian to do this. Marcus Borg.

I am a Christian Pluralist. This means that I accept the validity of all the great faiths of the world and not just my own. Each faith is man's response to and search for the Divine and a Just God will not discount these folks. Michael Ingham

I hope this answers some of your questions. I don't mind answering. The name at the end of each paragraph refers to the scholar that is a major developer of the preceeding information though they are not direct quotes. If page numbers are required I can give them as well as titles.

Shalom

Ted

:-6

You have to be - in my life - what I would call a "choose for yourself" person. I was, in fact, expecting a FG religious scholar to be very biased. I found your words very thoughtful - I thank you for that. It is, in fact, what I asked you to provide to me. This passage struck my heart - my soul.

What really counts is that we develop a living, transforming relationship with God and one does not have to be just a Christian to do this. Marcus Borg.

My guess is that you are not the religious scholar of FG but someone who has truly been thoughful of his own soul. Thanks.

beyelzu · Post by **beyelzu** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:33 pm

Ted wrote: beyelzu :-6

You are certainly correct about Georgia. That is too bad. It is changing. Unfortunately the change is far too slow.

Actually I am not a theist. I am a panentheist and please note the spelling of that word it is not "pantheist"

As far as proof goes: I have all I need.

As far as the number of scientists I mentioned, I believe it was more than three. I could have gone on but it is obvious that I could mention a hundred and you would not find that acceptable. The fact of the matter is there are well recognized scientists who happen to accept the reality of the Divine. Of course that does not prove the point. However, neither do they worship at the Godhead of science or rationality which has its own limitations.

Shalom

Ted :-6

damn, I am going to have to look up panentheist, good thing you pointed out the difference, I initially read it as pantheist, a term I am familiar with. It is certainly true that there are plenty of scientists that believe in some sort of god.

I dont know anyone who "worships at the godhead of science or rationality,"

what do you mean by the phrase?

for myself, I simply accept the universe as it is, no more and no less.