September 24, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist
Down Time From Murder
By ROGER COHEN
So now we know where Eva from Mannheim and Angela from Dortmund and Irmgard from Dresden ended up during the war years — jiving in pleated skirts to the strains of an accordion, or gorging themselves on blueberries, or lounging on deck chairs in the shadow of the Auschwitz-Birkenau crematoriums.
How fresh-faced and playful the SS women look in the 116 photographs that, 62 years after the liberation of the Nazi camp, have found their way by a circuitous route to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. It is not easy to imagine these young ladies moving on from a picnic to administer death wholesale.
In thinking about the Holocaust, we have grown accustomed to images of the Nazis’ victims: shadowy naked figures on the edge of ditches about to be dispatched by the SS-Einsatzgruppen; huddled wide-eyed children; skeletal human simulacra; piles of bones. Getting the perpetrators in focus is harder.
But here, revealed by these newly discovered photographs, are the German murderers in all their dumb humanity, flirting and joking and lighting Christmas trees, as if what awaited them after the frolicking were just the bus to some dull job in a dental office rather than the supervision of Auschwitz’s industrialized killing machine.
If they were downwind of the camp, did some trace of the acrid-sweet stench of death ever mess with the merry-making? Did the image of a Jewish girl from Budapest being herded toward the gas mar a mouthful? Did conscience stir or doubt impinge? Was it clear that the children had to die in order to eradicate not only a people, but also their memory? Such questions are useless. The facts must speak for themselves.
Goethe’s hero Faust declared: “Two souls, alas, are housed within my breast, and each will wrestle for mastery there. The light and dark of Germany, the disturbing proximity of civilization and barbarism, speak of that battle and its universal echoes.
I wish I could say I was surprised by the photos (on display at the museum Web site — www.ushmm.org). My years in Germany eroded my capacity for shock. The walk from Buchenwald’s brick-chimneyed crematorium to the genteel streets of Weimar — home to Schiller and Goethe, birthplace of the Bauhaus — is illusion-stripping. In 1942, Buchenwald prisoners were ordered to make wooden boxes to protect Schiller’s work.
Germans, through distinct postwar stages, have engaged in a painful examination of who the people giving and obeying such orders were and how, in Günter Grass’s words, an “entire credulous nation believed in Santa Claus, but “Santa Claus was really the gasman.
Just how hard that introspection has been was illustrated when Grass, a moral reference to the Bundesrepublik, broke a 61-year silence and revealed that he served as a 17-year-old in the Waffen SS.
More such revelations are needed; the threads of truth’s tapestry are not all tied. Germans will gaze at these photographs and ask: is that my grandmother or great-aunt? If not, might they have been? Jews and Germans are tied at their hip in their contemplation of the two sides of the crime.
Historians are voyeurs; they like nothing more than reading other people’s mail. They need to pry to put names to these faces of “ordinary Germans doing their jobs at Auschwitz.
The album was kept by Karl Höcker, the adjutant to the camp commandant. Höcker’s father was killed in World War I; his mother struggled. And what of the stories of Eva and Angela and Irmgard? Will any Germans step forward to claim these young women and give them real names rather than those invented here?
Hans Magnus Enzensberger wrote in 1960 of a Germany “overcrowded with absentees, full of people “who happen to be in this country fleeing from this country. With the years, Germany has gained confidence, pried open locked drawers, filled some of the absences. But these photos are an invitation to do more.
Inevitably, they pose the question: What would you have done? Filled your mouth with blueberries or balked and paid the mortal price? Perhaps no single question is more important. The voyeur has the luxury of posing it whereas those living then had to answer it. The overwhelming majority acquiesced to the unspeakable.
It has become banal to quote Hannah Arendt. But she encapsulated these photos’ conundrum when she wrote: “Under conditions of terror most people will comply but some people will not, adding that “Humanly speaking, no more is required and no more can reasonably be asked for this planet to remain a place fit for human habitation.
Like Germany’s unfinished but already remarkable postwar voyage from self-amputation to self-realization, these words bear pondering.
•
Photos: http://www.ushmm.org/research/collectio ... auschwitz/
Nazis at Play
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RedGlitter
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Nazis at Play
It has become banal to quote Hannah Arendt. But she encapsulated these photos’ conundrum when she wrote: “Under conditions of terror most people will comply but some people will not, adding that “Humanly speaking, no more is required and no more can reasonably be asked for this planet to remain a place fit for human habitation.
Like Germany’s unfinished but already remarkable postwar voyage from self-amputation to self-realization, these words bear pondering.
The thing is the terror 0nly came later. It was a gradual acceptance of the idea that it was OK to throw people in jail without trial, then it became unpatriotic to question the govt or the leader the terror crept in. Bear in mind germany was a democratic country with a history of tolerance of jews better than most other European countries, which is why so few actually fled-no one would let them in.
The warning from history of the nazis is that freedom can never be taken by force but by stealth and indifference.
a more accurate take is the famous poem by pastor martin neimoller.
In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Much misquoted, in the states the first stanza was often missed out especially at the height of the macarthy era.
If you want a good source try
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/te ... 4.0001.001
Shirer was an american journalist that was there through most of the thirties.
Like Germany’s unfinished but already remarkable postwar voyage from self-amputation to self-realization, these words bear pondering.
The thing is the terror 0nly came later. It was a gradual acceptance of the idea that it was OK to throw people in jail without trial, then it became unpatriotic to question the govt or the leader the terror crept in. Bear in mind germany was a democratic country with a history of tolerance of jews better than most other European countries, which is why so few actually fled-no one would let them in.
The warning from history of the nazis is that freedom can never be taken by force but by stealth and indifference.
a more accurate take is the famous poem by pastor martin neimoller.
In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Much misquoted, in the states the first stanza was often missed out especially at the height of the macarthy era.
If you want a good source try
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/te ... 4.0001.001
Shirer was an american journalist that was there through most of the thirties.
Nazis at Play
I think she got it wrong anyway. "Under conditions of terror most people will comply but some people will not" isn't how I see it. Under conditions of social acceptability most people will comply but some people will not, that's more the case. So long as only a minority feels unease the majority will do what they're told is necessary, even when there's no apparent risk to themselves. How we educate the majority into caring more baffles me.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left. ... Hold no regard for unsupported opinion.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious. [Fred Wedlock, "The Folker"]
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Nazis at Play
I lived in Germany for a year, and what always struck me about that horrific part of Germany's history was its banality, and the seeming ease that a nation of the highest cultural values and homely virtues could turn into a society that became a vast slave camp and a machine for the destruction of millions of entirely innocent peoples, (whether Jews, or those many millions of hapless civilians unlucky enough to be born east of the oder).
That an entire nation would follow a man such as adolf hitler up to the point of utter moral degenercy and physical destruction is still hard to understand to this day. Do not forget that many perhaps even most germans up to 1933 thought Hitler a somewhat farcial crank, that should give all pause for thought. The fact that I lived in Germany and gained some insight into modern Germany (a model liberal democracy nowadays I hasten to add) did not give me any particular insight I have to admit.
I did realize that what happened in Germany between 1933 and 1945 could happen in any western nation, but it has not to date. The fact that it happened in Germany, a nation that has been at the heart of European civilization for 1,000 years specifically poses a question that perhaps only germans can really answer themselves. Its not an easy question, and the answers are of the upmost importance for all of us in the modern world, and particularly all Europeans who claim many of the major ideals of western civilization as their invention. The fact that modern Europeans have been the authors of its darkest chapters is also beyond doubt. That the nation of Goethe, Schiller, Kant, and Beethoven was also the nation of the most sickening organized brutality and men such as hitler, himmler, goebels, or goering could achieve such absoute power over everyone (including the entire German military), is still as shocking as it was in 1945 and should remain as a bench mark in what human evil can achieve once unleashed. The fact that its entirely true that all great nations history are generally covered in blood does not in any way negate the horror of Nazi tryanny and the dark lesson in human nature that it provides.
That an entire nation would follow a man such as adolf hitler up to the point of utter moral degenercy and physical destruction is still hard to understand to this day. Do not forget that many perhaps even most germans up to 1933 thought Hitler a somewhat farcial crank, that should give all pause for thought. The fact that I lived in Germany and gained some insight into modern Germany (a model liberal democracy nowadays I hasten to add) did not give me any particular insight I have to admit.
I did realize that what happened in Germany between 1933 and 1945 could happen in any western nation, but it has not to date. The fact that it happened in Germany, a nation that has been at the heart of European civilization for 1,000 years specifically poses a question that perhaps only germans can really answer themselves. Its not an easy question, and the answers are of the upmost importance for all of us in the modern world, and particularly all Europeans who claim many of the major ideals of western civilization as their invention. The fact that modern Europeans have been the authors of its darkest chapters is also beyond doubt. That the nation of Goethe, Schiller, Kant, and Beethoven was also the nation of the most sickening organized brutality and men such as hitler, himmler, goebels, or goering could achieve such absoute power over everyone (including the entire German military), is still as shocking as it was in 1945 and should remain as a bench mark in what human evil can achieve once unleashed. The fact that its entirely true that all great nations history are generally covered in blood does not in any way negate the horror of Nazi tryanny and the dark lesson in human nature that it provides.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Nazis at Play
Galbally;699467 wrote: I lived in Germany for a year, and what always struck me about that horrific part of Germany's history was its banality, and the seeming ease that a nation of the highest cultural values and homely virtues could turn into a society that became a vast slave camp and a machine for the destruction of millions of entirely innocent peoples, (whether Jews, or those many millions of hapless civilians unlucky enough to be born east of the oder).
How much of that transformation do you lay at the door of the poverty and distress caused by the punitive Treaty of Versailles where the victors "punished" Germany for the Great War?
(If that isn't a leading question then what is :wah:)
How much of that transformation do you lay at the door of the poverty and distress caused by the punitive Treaty of Versailles where the victors "punished" Germany for the Great War?
(If that isn't a leading question then what is :wah:)
Nazis at Play
Bryn Mawr;699475 wrote: How much of that transformation do you lay at the door of the poverty and distress caused by the punitive Treaty of Versailles where the victors "punished" Germany for the Great War?
(If that isn't a leading question then what is :wah:)
I don't think there is a nice simple explanation. Injured pride and sense there was nothing to lose might have played a part but bear in mind it was a time of tremendous social upheaval. ww1 the protagionists were not democracies with universal suffrage that we now associate with the term in a very real sene it was the last time people went to war for king and country and empire.
People were terrified of a communist takeover like they had had in russia and what was happening there was well known. There had been an attempt in germany for a communist uprising as well as the right wing one that hitler spent time in jail for his part in.
In the UK in 1919 there were troops stationed in Glasgow with tanks ready to go in to action-just in case. we had the general strike, the navy mutinied in 1931 many all over the world found much to admire about the nazis and fascism.
The first thing Hitler did was imprison people without trial, once he could arrest whoever he wanted without the necessity of bringing them to trial he was on his way.
(If that isn't a leading question then what is :wah:)
I don't think there is a nice simple explanation. Injured pride and sense there was nothing to lose might have played a part but bear in mind it was a time of tremendous social upheaval. ww1 the protagionists were not democracies with universal suffrage that we now associate with the term in a very real sene it was the last time people went to war for king and country and empire.
People were terrified of a communist takeover like they had had in russia and what was happening there was well known. There had been an attempt in germany for a communist uprising as well as the right wing one that hitler spent time in jail for his part in.
In the UK in 1919 there were troops stationed in Glasgow with tanks ready to go in to action-just in case. we had the general strike, the navy mutinied in 1931 many all over the world found much to admire about the nazis and fascism.
The first thing Hitler did was imprison people without trial, once he could arrest whoever he wanted without the necessity of bringing them to trial he was on his way.
Nazis at Play
Bryn Mawr;699475 wrote: How much of that transformation do you lay at the door of the poverty and distress caused by the punitive Treaty of Versailles where the victors "punished" Germany for the Great War?
(If that isn't a leading question then what is :wah:)
Oh yes, I mean there are many valid politcal, economic, social and military reasons why Nazism arose in Germany and the way that events took their course. I am thinking more of the physchology of the mass muders, the way in which the entire apparatus of a society that had only a few years before that been one that had all the institutions of law, business, civil service, and military staff of a modern western nation (admittedly with a strong autocratic tradition) could become so debased and seemingly so easily, also the nature of the Nazi regime was of course so frightful and its litany of crimes so enourmous, and yet most the people involved so boringly normal, that its still something that is hard for anyone who has any sense of decency to really get to grips with.
(If that isn't a leading question then what is :wah:)
Oh yes, I mean there are many valid politcal, economic, social and military reasons why Nazism arose in Germany and the way that events took their course. I am thinking more of the physchology of the mass muders, the way in which the entire apparatus of a society that had only a few years before that been one that had all the institutions of law, business, civil service, and military staff of a modern western nation (admittedly with a strong autocratic tradition) could become so debased and seemingly so easily, also the nature of the Nazi regime was of course so frightful and its litany of crimes so enourmous, and yet most the people involved so boringly normal, that its still something that is hard for anyone who has any sense of decency to really get to grips with.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Nazis at Play
Galbally;699623 wrote: Oh yes, I mean there are many valid politcal, economic, social and military reasons why Nazism arose in Germany and the way that events took their course. I am thinking more of the physchology of the mass muders, the way in which the entire apparatus of a society that had only a few years before that been one that had all the institutions of law, business, civil service, and military staff of a modern western nation (admittedly with a strong autocratic tradition) could become so debased and seemingly so easily, also the nature of the Nazi regime was of course so frightful and its litany of crimes so enourmous, and yet most the people involved so boringly normal, that its still something that is hard for anyone who has any sense of decency to really get to grips with.
Undoubtedly the breakdown of civilized standards was rapid by any measure but it came at a time when they were in economic meltdown and the structures of the society were failing equally rapidly.
One of the main attractions of Herr Chancellor Hitler was that he restarted the economy and brought some measure of stability.
ETA. I'm not trying to defend Hitler or lessen the depravity of the actions he took later - just trying to examine whether the way Germany was treated after the Great War was, in part, responsible for his getting into power in the first place.
Undoubtedly the breakdown of civilized standards was rapid by any measure but it came at a time when they were in economic meltdown and the structures of the society were failing equally rapidly.
One of the main attractions of Herr Chancellor Hitler was that he restarted the economy and brought some measure of stability.
ETA. I'm not trying to defend Hitler or lessen the depravity of the actions he took later - just trying to examine whether the way Germany was treated after the Great War was, in part, responsible for his getting into power in the first place.
Nazis at Play
Bryn Mawr;699780 wrote: Undoubtedly the breakdown of civilized standards was rapid by any measure but it came at a time when they were in economic meltdown and the structures of the society were failing equally rapidly.
One of the main attractions of Herr Chancellor Hitler was that he restarted the economy and brought some measure of stability.
ETA. I'm not trying to defend Hitler or lessen the depravity of the actions he took later - just trying to examine whether the way Germany was treated after the Great War was, in part, responsible for his getting into power in the first place.
One of the main attractions of Herr Chancellor Hitler was that he restarted the economy and brought some measure of stability.
He was also seen as a counter to the communists.
I would refer you to this and subsequent two or three pages.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pa ... q=00000202
A useful source and written just after the time. There are other sources as well. If you look at where the funding for the nazis came from-some of the names are quite startling.
Don't forget you are also talking about a generation seared by ww1.
One of the main attractions of Herr Chancellor Hitler was that he restarted the economy and brought some measure of stability.
ETA. I'm not trying to defend Hitler or lessen the depravity of the actions he took later - just trying to examine whether the way Germany was treated after the Great War was, in part, responsible for his getting into power in the first place.
One of the main attractions of Herr Chancellor Hitler was that he restarted the economy and brought some measure of stability.
He was also seen as a counter to the communists.
I would refer you to this and subsequent two or three pages.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pa ... q=00000202
A useful source and written just after the time. There are other sources as well. If you look at where the funding for the nazis came from-some of the names are quite startling.
Don't forget you are also talking about a generation seared by ww1.
Nazis at Play
gmc;699853 wrote: He was also seen as a counter to the communists.
I would refer you to this and subsequent two or three pages.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pa ... q=00000202
A useful source and written just after the time. There are other sources as well. If you look at where the funding for the nazis came from-some of the names are quite startling.
Don't forget you are also talking about a generation seared by ww1.
Thats very true, and of course Britain, France, and Italy also contained many men who had been morally destroyed by their experiences in the Trenches, but none of these countries sank to the depths of Nazi Germany (and yes I am including Fascist Italy!) which raises many questions, I guess there are many well-debated reasons why Germany was so afflicted by this phenomenon between the wars. Perhaps if only a few things had been different in 1933 things wouldn't have turned out the way they did.
Being Irish I am well aware of Britains own less noble episodes in history, but there was nothing in British history that has come close to the sustained and demonic nature of the worst excesses of German Nazism, France too has had its pretty awful epsiodes both in its empire and at home, but still nothing quite so searing as what happened in Germany, though the period of the revolution was much worse than is generally realized, however still I don't think it really compares, maybe thats a perspective thing.
Even Austria, which was the land of Hitlers birth, and a German empire also that had arguably lost a lot more than Germany itself in WWI, did Nazism take hold so deeply until the country was annexed and destoryed by Hilter's thugs. I am not trying to suggest that there is something particulary unqiue about Germany or the Gerrman people at all, I am just wondering about it myself in my own mind.
I would refer you to this and subsequent two or three pages.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pa ... q=00000202
A useful source and written just after the time. There are other sources as well. If you look at where the funding for the nazis came from-some of the names are quite startling.
Don't forget you are also talking about a generation seared by ww1.
Thats very true, and of course Britain, France, and Italy also contained many men who had been morally destroyed by their experiences in the Trenches, but none of these countries sank to the depths of Nazi Germany (and yes I am including Fascist Italy!) which raises many questions, I guess there are many well-debated reasons why Germany was so afflicted by this phenomenon between the wars. Perhaps if only a few things had been different in 1933 things wouldn't have turned out the way they did.
Being Irish I am well aware of Britains own less noble episodes in history, but there was nothing in British history that has come close to the sustained and demonic nature of the worst excesses of German Nazism, France too has had its pretty awful epsiodes both in its empire and at home, but still nothing quite so searing as what happened in Germany, though the period of the revolution was much worse than is generally realized, however still I don't think it really compares, maybe thats a perspective thing.
Even Austria, which was the land of Hitlers birth, and a German empire also that had arguably lost a lot more than Germany itself in WWI, did Nazism take hold so deeply until the country was annexed and destoryed by Hilter's thugs. I am not trying to suggest that there is something particulary unqiue about Germany or the Gerrman people at all, I am just wondering about it myself in my own mind.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Nazis at Play
posted by galbally
Even Austria, which was the land of Hitlers birth, and a German empire also that had arguably lost a lot more than Germany itself in WWI, did Nazism take hold so deeply until the country was annexed and destoryed by Hilter's thugs. I am not trying to suggest that there is something particulary unqiue about Germany or the Gerrman people at all, I am just wondering about it myself in my own mind.
Not so.
http://fcit.usf.edu/Holocaust/resource/ ... /Bukey.HTM
During World War II, though they only constituted eight percent of the Third Reich's population, Austrians comprised fourteen percent of the SS and forty percent of Nazi personnel involved in genocide.
With respect to Austria's Jews, by the time of the Anschluss the Austrian Church had rejected racial and biological anti-Semitism. On the other hand, it still held Jews (and Protestants as well) largely responsible for that infernal design, the modern world. Innitzer created a fund to support baptized Jews, but a very large number of the Catholic faithful viewed baptized Jews, as well as all other Jews, with a hatred "so tightly woven into the fabric of Austrian society that it constituted 'a Sorelian political myth, immune to empirical falsification'" (p. 133).
What this meant in real terms is illustrated by what occurred on March 11, 1938, when Vienna prepared to receive Hitler. Untold thousands of Viennese took to the streets of their city like madpersons, dragging anyone who "looked Jewish" from vehicles, clubbing and beating victims, desecrating synagogues, robbing department stores, and raiding Jewish apartments. They compelled rabbis to scrub toilet bowls with prayer shawls and stole whatever cash, jewelry, and furs they could find. An SS correspondent would later write admiringly, "'The Viennese have managed to do overnight what we have failed to achieve in the slow-moving, ponderous north up to this day. In Austria, a boycott of the Jews does not need organizing the people themselves have initiated it'" (p. 134) .
I tend to think it's something that could happen in any country where unquestioning obedience of authority becomes the norm.
Being Irish I am well aware of Britains own less noble episodes in history, but there was nothing in British history that has come close to the sustained and demonic nature of the worst excesses of German Nazism,
I don't know where would you put the negro slave trade on the list of unspeakable atrocities carried out on grounds of race and justified by means of racial superiority. The british did start it. Slavery was nothing new but combine it with religion and a god given right to dominate races you convince yourself are inferior and away you go.
Even Austria, which was the land of Hitlers birth, and a German empire also that had arguably lost a lot more than Germany itself in WWI, did Nazism take hold so deeply until the country was annexed and destoryed by Hilter's thugs. I am not trying to suggest that there is something particulary unqiue about Germany or the Gerrman people at all, I am just wondering about it myself in my own mind.
Not so.
http://fcit.usf.edu/Holocaust/resource/ ... /Bukey.HTM
During World War II, though they only constituted eight percent of the Third Reich's population, Austrians comprised fourteen percent of the SS and forty percent of Nazi personnel involved in genocide.
With respect to Austria's Jews, by the time of the Anschluss the Austrian Church had rejected racial and biological anti-Semitism. On the other hand, it still held Jews (and Protestants as well) largely responsible for that infernal design, the modern world. Innitzer created a fund to support baptized Jews, but a very large number of the Catholic faithful viewed baptized Jews, as well as all other Jews, with a hatred "so tightly woven into the fabric of Austrian society that it constituted 'a Sorelian political myth, immune to empirical falsification'" (p. 133).
What this meant in real terms is illustrated by what occurred on March 11, 1938, when Vienna prepared to receive Hitler. Untold thousands of Viennese took to the streets of their city like madpersons, dragging anyone who "looked Jewish" from vehicles, clubbing and beating victims, desecrating synagogues, robbing department stores, and raiding Jewish apartments. They compelled rabbis to scrub toilet bowls with prayer shawls and stole whatever cash, jewelry, and furs they could find. An SS correspondent would later write admiringly, "'The Viennese have managed to do overnight what we have failed to achieve in the slow-moving, ponderous north up to this day. In Austria, a boycott of the Jews does not need organizing the people themselves have initiated it'" (p. 134) .
I tend to think it's something that could happen in any country where unquestioning obedience of authority becomes the norm.
Being Irish I am well aware of Britains own less noble episodes in history, but there was nothing in British history that has come close to the sustained and demonic nature of the worst excesses of German Nazism,
I don't know where would you put the negro slave trade on the list of unspeakable atrocities carried out on grounds of race and justified by means of racial superiority. The british did start it. Slavery was nothing new but combine it with religion and a god given right to dominate races you convince yourself are inferior and away you go.
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RedGlitter
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Nazis at Play
Galbally said:
I am thinking more of the physchology of the mass muders, the way in which the entire apparatus of a society that had only a few years before that been one that had all the institutions of law, business, civil service, and military staff of a modern western nation (admittedly with a strong autocratic tradition) could become so debased and seemingly so easily, also the nature of the Nazi regime was of course so frightful and its litany of crimes so enourmous, and yet most the people involved so boringly normal, that its still something that is hard for anyone who has any sense of decency to really get to grips with.
I identify with this absolutely. I've tried to say the same thing in conversations I've had about this, but never came close to it, thanks Galbally for putting it into concrete terms.
I was hoping when I posted this that it would take off and run because I always learn something when that happens; from you guys in particular. I don't pretend to be well versed in world history as you may have noticed by now
but I can always count on you to offer up points for me to think about and new ways to see things. Thank you.
I am thinking more of the physchology of the mass muders, the way in which the entire apparatus of a society that had only a few years before that been one that had all the institutions of law, business, civil service, and military staff of a modern western nation (admittedly with a strong autocratic tradition) could become so debased and seemingly so easily, also the nature of the Nazi regime was of course so frightful and its litany of crimes so enourmous, and yet most the people involved so boringly normal, that its still something that is hard for anyone who has any sense of decency to really get to grips with.
I identify with this absolutely. I've tried to say the same thing in conversations I've had about this, but never came close to it, thanks Galbally for putting it into concrete terms.
I was hoping when I posted this that it would take off and run because I always learn something when that happens; from you guys in particular. I don't pretend to be well versed in world history as you may have noticed by now
but I can always count on you to offer up points for me to think about and new ways to see things. Thank you.