Thinking is part of reality
Our educational system and our culture lie to us. We are taught by our educational system and by our culture that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality; never informing us that reality and thinking go together, one is not separated from the other. Reflexivity is a concept that informs us that thinking is part of reality.
In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success. In human affairs there are shortcuts to success—one can lie, manipulate, spin, and use force to gain success. Thus in human affairs truth often takes a back seat.
In his book “Open Society George Soros speaks of many things; one important concept is ‘reflexivity’. “I started thinking in terms of reflexivity nearly fifty years ago. It may be interesting to recall how I arrived at the idea. It was through the footnotes of Karl Popper’s “Open Society and its Enemies¦I started to apply the concept of reflexivity to the understanding of social affairs, and particularly of financial markets, in the early 1960s before evolutionary systems theory was born¦
The first chapter of this book, wherein he explains this concept, can be found at http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/soros.htm.
Thinking is part of reality
Thinking is part of reality
Can you just give us a short version of the concept of reflexivity? You can't imagine how much reading material just stacks up for me day in and day out...:-5 alright I reread your post and found that you did give a short definition. How can one separate thinking from reality? I never thought that I was taught this.
What is success? See your quote below:
"In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success."
Erin
What is success? See your quote below:
"In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success."
Erin
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nvalleyvee
- Posts: 5191
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am
Thinking is part of reality
coberst;701611 wrote: Thinking is part of reality
Our educational system and our culture lie to us. We are taught by our educational system and by our culture that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality; never informing us that reality and thinking go together, one is not separated from the other. Reflexivity is a concept that informs us that thinking is part of reality.
In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success. In human affairs there are shortcuts to success—one can lie, manipulate, spin, and use force to gain success. Thus in human affairs truth often takes a back seat.
In his book “Open Society George Soros speaks of many things; one important concept is ‘reflexivity’. “I started thinking in terms of reflexivity nearly fifty years ago. It may be interesting to recall how I arrived at the idea. It was through the footnotes of Karl Popper’s “Open Society and its Enemies¦I started to apply the concept of reflexivity to the understanding of social affairs, and particularly of financial markets, in the early 1960s before evolutionary systems theory was born¦
The first chapter of this book, wherein he explains this concept, can be found at http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/soros.htm.
I really have to disagree with you. I really think every free thinker in this world would have a difficult time with you.
Our educational system and our culture lie to us. We are taught by our educational system and by our culture that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality; never informing us that reality and thinking go together, one is not separated from the other. Reflexivity is a concept that informs us that thinking is part of reality.
In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success. In human affairs there are shortcuts to success—one can lie, manipulate, spin, and use force to gain success. Thus in human affairs truth often takes a back seat.
In his book “Open Society George Soros speaks of many things; one important concept is ‘reflexivity’. “I started thinking in terms of reflexivity nearly fifty years ago. It may be interesting to recall how I arrived at the idea. It was through the footnotes of Karl Popper’s “Open Society and its Enemies¦I started to apply the concept of reflexivity to the understanding of social affairs, and particularly of financial markets, in the early 1960s before evolutionary systems theory was born¦
The first chapter of this book, wherein he explains this concept, can be found at http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/soros.htm.
I really have to disagree with you. I really think every free thinker in this world would have a difficult time with you.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
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nvalleyvee
- Posts: 5191
- Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:57 am
Thinking is part of reality
coberst;701611 wrote: Thinking is part of reality
Our educational system and our culture lie to us. We are taught by our educational system and by our culture that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality; never informing us that reality and thinking go together, one is not separated from the other. Reflexivity is a concept that informs us that thinking is part of reality.
In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success. In human affairs there are shortcuts to success—one can lie, manipulate, spin, and use force to gain success. Thus in human affairs truth often takes a back seat.
In his book “Open Society George Soros speaks of many things; one important concept is ‘reflexivity’. “I started thinking in terms of reflexivity nearly fifty years ago. It may be interesting to recall how I arrived at the idea. It was through the footnotes of Karl Popper’s “Open Society and its Enemies¦I started to apply the concept of reflexivity to the understanding of social affairs, and particularly of financial markets, in the early 1960s before evolutionary systems theory was born¦
The first chapter of this book, wherein he explains this concept, can be found at http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/soros.htm.
You have never taught children!!!!! You have never taught children that need special care!!!!!
What is more ... you have never considered another human being.
Our educational system and our culture lie to us. We are taught by our educational system and by our culture that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality; never informing us that reality and thinking go together, one is not separated from the other. Reflexivity is a concept that informs us that thinking is part of reality.
In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success. In human affairs there are shortcuts to success—one can lie, manipulate, spin, and use force to gain success. Thus in human affairs truth often takes a back seat.
In his book “Open Society George Soros speaks of many things; one important concept is ‘reflexivity’. “I started thinking in terms of reflexivity nearly fifty years ago. It may be interesting to recall how I arrived at the idea. It was through the footnotes of Karl Popper’s “Open Society and its Enemies¦I started to apply the concept of reflexivity to the understanding of social affairs, and particularly of financial markets, in the early 1960s before evolutionary systems theory was born¦
The first chapter of this book, wherein he explains this concept, can be found at http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/soros.htm.
You have never taught children!!!!! You have never taught children that need special care!!!!!
What is more ... you have never considered another human being.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
Thinking is part of reality
watermark;701877 wrote: Can you just give us a short version of the concept of reflexivity? You can't imagine how much reading material just stacks up for me day in and day out...:-5 alright I reread your post and found that you did give a short definition. How can one separate thinking from reality? I never thought that I was taught this.
What is success? See your quote below:
"In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success."
Erin
There are many theories of truth but the correspondence theory of truth is part of our common sense here in America (I restrict my statements to America because I do not know other nations; however, I am convinced that such is true in all nations).
“Correspondence theories claim that true beliefs and true statements correspond to the actual state of affairs¦ Correspondence theory traditionally operates on the assumption that truth is a matter of accurately copying "objective reality" and then representing it in thoughts, words and other symbols. (Quickie from Wiki) This theory implies that there is a reality and that our task is to recognize that reality. Truth is a representation that we create in our mind indicating what reality really is.
Most Americans fail to recognize that thinking and reality are inseparabl.
What is success? See your quote below:
"In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success."
Erin
There are many theories of truth but the correspondence theory of truth is part of our common sense here in America (I restrict my statements to America because I do not know other nations; however, I am convinced that such is true in all nations).
“Correspondence theories claim that true beliefs and true statements correspond to the actual state of affairs¦ Correspondence theory traditionally operates on the assumption that truth is a matter of accurately copying "objective reality" and then representing it in thoughts, words and other symbols. (Quickie from Wiki) This theory implies that there is a reality and that our task is to recognize that reality. Truth is a representation that we create in our mind indicating what reality really is.
Most Americans fail to recognize that thinking and reality are inseparabl.
Thinking is part of reality
watermark;701877 wrote: Can you just give us a short version of the concept of reflexivity? You can't imagine how much reading material just stacks up for me day in and day out...:-5 alright I reread your post and found that you did give a short definition. How can one separate thinking from reality? I never thought that I was taught this.
What is success? See your quote below:
"In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success."
Erin
I failed to answer your question in the other post.
What is success? Let me use Bush and the Iraq war as an example. For Bush going to war with Iraq was his desire, Success was having the American people backing his move to war. He was successful, however, reality finally intervened and we see the mess. In the natural sciences success is always equated with corespondence to truth, i.e to reality. In human afairs success is often not related to reality.
What is success? See your quote below:
"In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success."
Erin
I failed to answer your question in the other post.
What is success? Let me use Bush and the Iraq war as an example. For Bush going to war with Iraq was his desire, Success was having the American people backing his move to war. He was successful, however, reality finally intervened and we see the mess. In the natural sciences success is always equated with corespondence to truth, i.e to reality. In human afairs success is often not related to reality.
Thinking is part of reality
nvalley..
Your two posts leave me confused. You are too cryptic for me to comprehend.
Your two posts leave me confused. You are too cryptic for me to comprehend.
Thinking is part of reality
I agree that thinking is part of reality, Coberst. I also read your anti- intellectualism thread and was truly in agreement, although my response there might seem cryptic as my sarcasms were self directed.
...I think that the responses above might have been cases of anti-intellectualism. I used to not realize the nature of the bias, and would unwittingly speak above par, and one of the most effective retorts in community college circles is to ask someone to define a single word, as happened above, as if they have located the jugular of an argument. But this is a trick of rhetoric that works better in speech I think, than in written correspondence. Success is a ready word for him to question, because by merely asking "what is success?" , he sounds like he's beggining a reader's digest article, or that he is some formidable skeptic. But that is where I become the skeptic.
...Common sense won't allow anyone to deny that thinking is part of reality, and the philosophic statement; I think therefore I am; insists upon it, I think. And so I assume that you were speaking to emphasize that one must consider the nature of thought, and not dismiss it as something trivial.
...I think that the responses above might have been cases of anti-intellectualism. I used to not realize the nature of the bias, and would unwittingly speak above par, and one of the most effective retorts in community college circles is to ask someone to define a single word, as happened above, as if they have located the jugular of an argument. But this is a trick of rhetoric that works better in speech I think, than in written correspondence. Success is a ready word for him to question, because by merely asking "what is success?" , he sounds like he's beggining a reader's digest article, or that he is some formidable skeptic. But that is where I become the skeptic.
...Common sense won't allow anyone to deny that thinking is part of reality, and the philosophic statement; I think therefore I am; insists upon it, I think. And so I assume that you were speaking to emphasize that one must consider the nature of thought, and not dismiss it as something trivial.
Thinking is part of reality
helgi;702315 wrote: I agree that thinking is part of reality, Coberst. I also read your anti- intellectualism thread and was truly in agreement, although my response there might seem cryptic as my sarcasms were self directed.
...I think that the responses above might have been cases of anti-intellectualism. I used to not realize the nature of the bias, and would unwittingly speak above par, and one of the most effective retorts in community college circles is to ask someone to define a single word, as happened above, as if they have located the jugular of an argument. But this is a trick of rhetoric that works better in speech I think, than in written correspondence. Success is a ready word for him to question, because by merely asking "what is success?" , he sounds like he's beggining a reader's digest article, or that he is some formidable skeptic. But that is where I become the skeptic.
...Common sense won't allow anyone to deny that thinking is part of reality, and the philosophic statement; I think therefore I am; insists upon it, I think. And so I assume that you were speaking to emphasize that one must consider the nature of thought, and not dismiss it as something trivial.
I am constantly trying to write about concepts such as critical thinking and self-learning and getting no where. The problem is that these phrases are easily assumed to mean something very ordinary. Likewise with the phrase about thinking as being part of reality. When people think they know what you are talking about they turn off the phone. Such is the case here.
I constantly get the refrain I am a critical thinker and I am a self-learner or you are preaching to the choir here.
It is very difficult for people to recognize their ignorance when we have to use common language and common words. Therein is the problem with this particular subject.
You can rest assured that few people are trying to make a mountain out of a mole-hill in matters like this. You also can rest assured that if you think you have understood the matter you do almost certainly not understand he matter. Don't close your mind by thinking you understand because the odds are that you do not and that the only way you will is to invest some time and intellectual energy in the matter.
...I think that the responses above might have been cases of anti-intellectualism. I used to not realize the nature of the bias, and would unwittingly speak above par, and one of the most effective retorts in community college circles is to ask someone to define a single word, as happened above, as if they have located the jugular of an argument. But this is a trick of rhetoric that works better in speech I think, than in written correspondence. Success is a ready word for him to question, because by merely asking "what is success?" , he sounds like he's beggining a reader's digest article, or that he is some formidable skeptic. But that is where I become the skeptic.
...Common sense won't allow anyone to deny that thinking is part of reality, and the philosophic statement; I think therefore I am; insists upon it, I think. And so I assume that you were speaking to emphasize that one must consider the nature of thought, and not dismiss it as something trivial.
I am constantly trying to write about concepts such as critical thinking and self-learning and getting no where. The problem is that these phrases are easily assumed to mean something very ordinary. Likewise with the phrase about thinking as being part of reality. When people think they know what you are talking about they turn off the phone. Such is the case here.
I constantly get the refrain I am a critical thinker and I am a self-learner or you are preaching to the choir here.
It is very difficult for people to recognize their ignorance when we have to use common language and common words. Therein is the problem with this particular subject.
You can rest assured that few people are trying to make a mountain out of a mole-hill in matters like this. You also can rest assured that if you think you have understood the matter you do almost certainly not understand he matter. Don't close your mind by thinking you understand because the odds are that you do not and that the only way you will is to invest some time and intellectual energy in the matter.
Thinking is part of reality
You also can rest assured that if you think you have understood the matter you do almost certainly not understand he matter. Don't close your mind by thinking you understand because the odds are that you do not and that the only way you will is to invest some time and intellectual energy in the matter.
And you of course do understand? You've gone into the mountains and brought back your mole-hill for us all to marvel at?
If you are so sure that the majority of people who consider themselves to be critical thinkers fall short of the mark, I have a few questions for you:
1/ Who are you to say what constitutes "proper" critical thinking?
2/ If so many people don't get it, how are you so sure you do?
3/ If so many people who self-identify as critical thinkers have issues with what you're saying, what makes you think it is they who are doing something wrong?
I'm just curious where you get the authority to say "-I- am a critical thinker and self-learner, but everyone else who says so isn't correct"
And you of course do understand? You've gone into the mountains and brought back your mole-hill for us all to marvel at?
If you are so sure that the majority of people who consider themselves to be critical thinkers fall short of the mark, I have a few questions for you:
1/ Who are you to say what constitutes "proper" critical thinking?
2/ If so many people don't get it, how are you so sure you do?
3/ If so many people who self-identify as critical thinkers have issues with what you're saying, what makes you think it is they who are doing something wrong?
I'm just curious where you get the authority to say "-I- am a critical thinker and self-learner, but everyone else who says so isn't correct"
Thinking is part of reality
Devonin;703180 wrote: And you of course do understand? You've gone into the mountains and brought back your mole-hill for us all to marvel at?
If you are so sure that the majority of people who consider themselves to be critical thinkers fall short of the mark, I have a few questions for you:
1/ Who are you to say what constitutes "proper" critical thinking?
2/ If so many people don't get it, how are you so sure you do?
3/ If so many people who self-identify as critical thinkers have issues with what you're saying, what makes you think it is they who are doing something wrong?
I'm just curious where you get the authority to say "-I- am a critical thinker and self-learner, but everyone else who says so isn't correct"
Thank god. I am so glad that someone took the time to put together such an eloquent and to-the-point post confronting how "holier than thou" coberst is.
The more I read coberst's posts, the more I begin to realize that, in all probability, he's a narcissist. Defined as: inordinate fascination with oneself.
If you are so sure that the majority of people who consider themselves to be critical thinkers fall short of the mark, I have a few questions for you:
1/ Who are you to say what constitutes "proper" critical thinking?
2/ If so many people don't get it, how are you so sure you do?
3/ If so many people who self-identify as critical thinkers have issues with what you're saying, what makes you think it is they who are doing something wrong?
I'm just curious where you get the authority to say "-I- am a critical thinker and self-learner, but everyone else who says so isn't correct"
Thank god. I am so glad that someone took the time to put together such an eloquent and to-the-point post confronting how "holier than thou" coberst is.
The more I read coberst's posts, the more I begin to realize that, in all probability, he's a narcissist. Defined as: inordinate fascination with oneself.
It is better to have your mind opened by wonder
than closed by belief.
than closed by belief.
Thinking is part of reality
laneybug;703561 wrote: Thank god. I am so glad that someone took the time to put together such an eloquent and to-the-point post confronting how "holier than thou" coberst is.
The more I read coberst's posts, the more I begin to realize that, in all probability, he's a narcissist. Defined as: inordinate fascination with oneself.
That is a possibility. Another possibility is that I recognize a serious problem for our society and am trying as best I can to address that problem. I might suggest Socrates as an example of someone who did much the same thing for his society. And of course we all know how well his society comprehended his efforts.
The problem that I see is that our society may very well self-destruct in the next 200 years if our citizens do not make an effort to be more intellectually sophisticated. That will be difficult to accomplish until we reduce the degree of anti-intellectualism in the society.
The more I read coberst's posts, the more I begin to realize that, in all probability, he's a narcissist. Defined as: inordinate fascination with oneself.
That is a possibility. Another possibility is that I recognize a serious problem for our society and am trying as best I can to address that problem. I might suggest Socrates as an example of someone who did much the same thing for his society. And of course we all know how well his society comprehended his efforts.
The problem that I see is that our society may very well self-destruct in the next 200 years if our citizens do not make an effort to be more intellectually sophisticated. That will be difficult to accomplish until we reduce the degree of anti-intellectualism in the society.
Thinking is part of reality
The difference between you and Socrates is that Socrates claimed ignorance.
Questioning the beliefs of others is not remotely the same thing as bombarding them with your own beliefs.
Rather than constantly making new threads to reveal unto us this week's newfound wisdom about the world, Socrates I suspect, would have started exactly -0- threads on this forum.
Instead he'd have involved himself in the forum community, gotten to know the userbase, and taken part in -their- discussions, filling the role of devil's advocate and questioner, helping other people to fine tune their beliefs.
He always communicated with people in their language, in a way they could relate to, so they would happily engage him in discourse, and thus by appealing to them, Socrates could help foster critical thinking in others.
I think Socrates would look at your posting style as heavy-handed, missing the point, and almost certain to turn away from you the very people you claim to be trying to reach.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I strongly suspect that your reaction to people not simply adapting their own beliefs to mirror yours is one of disappointment in the sorry state of the rest of the world for not seeing what you are trying to educate them about.
That's exactly the opposite attitude to be comparing yourself to Socrates.
Questioning the beliefs of others is not remotely the same thing as bombarding them with your own beliefs.
Rather than constantly making new threads to reveal unto us this week's newfound wisdom about the world, Socrates I suspect, would have started exactly -0- threads on this forum.
Instead he'd have involved himself in the forum community, gotten to know the userbase, and taken part in -their- discussions, filling the role of devil's advocate and questioner, helping other people to fine tune their beliefs.
He always communicated with people in their language, in a way they could relate to, so they would happily engage him in discourse, and thus by appealing to them, Socrates could help foster critical thinking in others.
I think Socrates would look at your posting style as heavy-handed, missing the point, and almost certain to turn away from you the very people you claim to be trying to reach.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I strongly suspect that your reaction to people not simply adapting their own beliefs to mirror yours is one of disappointment in the sorry state of the rest of the world for not seeing what you are trying to educate them about.
That's exactly the opposite attitude to be comparing yourself to Socrates.