With 90% of mankind’s communication being nonverbal and God having created us in his image it makes me wonder how much of what he is trying to say is missed. For most of my life, when someone asked about God I would immediately refer to the Bible as “what God says’. There is no doubt God communicates to us through the Bible but could it be it is only the verbal communication from him. I really didn’t consider the nonverbal part all that much.
When I see a bird pushing a baby out of its nest to make it fly I should hear from God that he pushes me out of my comfort zone so I can do greater things.
When I see a nymph hatch in a stream, only to live for the day, I should hear from God that eternity is a very long time and every moment counts.
When a grandchild looks to me as though I can do no wrong I should hear God telling me how important it that I do no wrong.
Without quoting the Bible, how does God speak to you?
What is God Saying to You?
What is God Saying to You?
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
What is God Saying to You?
often..the strongest words from god are how we present ourselves in life..and how we live..it speaks louder than anything anyone can ever say..
What is God Saying to You?
Clint;732379 wrote:
Without quoting the Bible, how does God speak to you?
After a weekend re-reading Matthew whilst discussing Mosaic Law with Jester, I'd have to say through the way of the world - by the fruits of his work shall yea know him.
Oops - not meant to be quoting the Bible. Oh it's OK, I was just paraphrasing
I must say though, what I see does not reflect well
Without quoting the Bible, how does God speak to you?
After a weekend re-reading Matthew whilst discussing Mosaic Law with Jester, I'd have to say through the way of the world - by the fruits of his work shall yea know him.
Oops - not meant to be quoting the Bible. Oh it's OK, I was just paraphrasing
I must say though, what I see does not reflect well
What is God Saying to You?
Bryn Mawr;733224 wrote: After a weekend re-reading Matthew whilst discussing Mosaic Law with Jester, I'd have to say through the way of the world - by the fruits of his work shall yea know him.
Oops - not meant to be quoting the Bible. Oh it's OK, I was just paraphrasing
I must say though, what I see does not reflect well
Agreed, however I am trying to hear from God through his creation in addition to what he gives us in written word. I'm trying to learn from what he has set into motion and what he brings to bear on all that is. I don't think the behavior of man exercising free will gives us a clear view of God. It's the fruit God's work we should observe. I think we can recognize it because it's result is good.
Oops - not meant to be quoting the Bible. Oh it's OK, I was just paraphrasing
I must say though, what I see does not reflect well
Agreed, however I am trying to hear from God through his creation in addition to what he gives us in written word. I'm trying to learn from what he has set into motion and what he brings to bear on all that is. I don't think the behavior of man exercising free will gives us a clear view of God. It's the fruit God's work we should observe. I think we can recognize it because it's result is good.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
What is God Saying to You?
I can agree that God does speak to us through the Bible.
I think he also speaks to us through nature as well as the fact of "anything at all". It seems to me that we get even more direct messages when we are placed in situations where we are called upon to do justice and to be compassionate. I would agree that actions speak much louder than words. Talk is cheap.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I think he also speaks to us through nature as well as the fact of "anything at all". It seems to me that we get even more direct messages when we are placed in situations where we are called upon to do justice and to be compassionate. I would agree that actions speak much louder than words. Talk is cheap.
Shalom
Ted:-6
What is God Saying to You?
Clint;733308 wrote: Agreed, however I am trying to hear from God through his creation in addition to what he gives us in written word. I'm trying to learn from what he has set into motion and what he brings to bear on all that is. I don't think the behavior of man exercising free will gives us a clear view of God. It's the fruit God's work we should observe. I think we can recognize it because it's result is good.
Totally agree and that's exactly what I was suggesting.
Given the discussion centring round the God of the New Testament compared with the God of the Old testament I'm not sure that you can filter in that way.
God's creation is the universe and everything in it so how can we look around and say "that's good so that it God's work, that is bad so it cannot be"?
Totally agree and that's exactly what I was suggesting.
Given the discussion centring round the God of the New Testament compared with the God of the Old testament I'm not sure that you can filter in that way.
God's creation is the universe and everything in it so how can we look around and say "that's good so that it God's work, that is bad so it cannot be"?
What is God Saying to You?
Most of the time it seems like God says nothing. I'm caught up in my woes and ills and wonder if I'm just fooling myself into believing that God even exists.
And then, as if from nowhere, I have one of those beautiful moments when everything seems in perfect order, beautifully planned and crafted. And I know that all is well. These moments are wordless, but they say so much.
And then, as if from nowhere, I have one of those beautiful moments when everything seems in perfect order, beautifully planned and crafted. And I know that all is well. These moments are wordless, but they say so much.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
What is God Saying to You?
Bryn Mawr;733393 wrote: Totally agree and that's exactly what I was suggesting.
Given the discussion centring round the God of the New Testament compared with the God of the Old testament I'm not sure that you can filter in that way.
God's creation is the universe and everything in it so how can we look around and say "that's good so that it God's work, that is bad so it cannot be"?
It has a lot to do with how we view what God does. If an innocent child dies we would tend to say that isn't of God because it isn't good in our eyes. If however innocent children never died, what would motivate us to care for and protect children?
Given the discussion centring round the God of the New Testament compared with the God of the Old testament I'm not sure that you can filter in that way.
God's creation is the universe and everything in it so how can we look around and say "that's good so that it God's work, that is bad so it cannot be"?
It has a lot to do with how we view what God does. If an innocent child dies we would tend to say that isn't of God because it isn't good in our eyes. If however innocent children never died, what would motivate us to care for and protect children?
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
What is God Saying to You?
Jester;733665 wrote: Theia,
God is still there in all the disorder of the world and our own situations, in fact thats what we should be looking for is Gods Order, then we can see both our own mistakes and others, we fix our own first then be ready to help others through the same situations we've already been through.
The fact that you recognize there is disorder is proof that God has expressed in your heart there should be a proper order. Thats proof that in the situation God is still near.
Jester, that's both an interesting and inspiring point, one that I hadn't considered before. It's really helpful to me, thank you!
God is still there in all the disorder of the world and our own situations, in fact thats what we should be looking for is Gods Order, then we can see both our own mistakes and others, we fix our own first then be ready to help others through the same situations we've already been through.
The fact that you recognize there is disorder is proof that God has expressed in your heart there should be a proper order. Thats proof that in the situation God is still near.
Jester, that's both an interesting and inspiring point, one that I hadn't considered before. It's really helpful to me, thank you!
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
What is God Saying to You?
Clint;733308 wrote: Agreed, however I am trying to hear from God through his creation in addition to what he gives us in written word. I'm trying to learn from what he has set into motion and what he brings to bear on all that is. I don't think the behavior of man exercising free will gives us a clear view of God. It's the fruit God's work we should observe. I think we can recognize it because it's result is good.
Clint;733539 wrote: It has a lot to do with how we view what God does. If an innocent child dies we would tend to say that isn't of God because it isn't good in our eyes. If however innocent children never died, what would motivate us to care for and protect children?
If God is the creator of all then we have to observe all in order to see his work - we cannot filter what we'll look at through the window of our expectations and hope to see the whole picture.
That would be like a scientist who has a theory and tests the accuracy of that theory by counting only those occasions when he see what he expects to - he'd be laughed out court when he tried to present his results.
Clint;733539 wrote: It has a lot to do with how we view what God does. If an innocent child dies we would tend to say that isn't of God because it isn't good in our eyes. If however innocent children never died, what would motivate us to care for and protect children?
If God is the creator of all then we have to observe all in order to see his work - we cannot filter what we'll look at through the window of our expectations and hope to see the whole picture.
That would be like a scientist who has a theory and tests the accuracy of that theory by counting only those occasions when he see what he expects to - he'd be laughed out court when he tried to present his results.
What is God Saying to You?
Jester;733670 wrote: I think you have Creation and then you have Man. It's very clear to me that Gods creation is the only thing left that is good in and of itself in existance or in our existance, all of mankind has strayed from our original purpose. The only good we see are those small actions and the outcomes that follow (fruit) that are motivated by pure love of God and acted on in conjucntion with the Holy Spirit.
I agree that man has strayed from any path of decent behaviour that might have been laid out for him. Mankind has strayed from any form of rational behaviour if you consider anything further than the middle of next week.
Doesn't the highlighted section come under the heading of a self sustaining belief? God creates everything good and if it's good it must have been created by God.
I cannot accept the implication that nothing good can ever be done by a non-Christian.
I agree that man has strayed from any path of decent behaviour that might have been laid out for him. Mankind has strayed from any form of rational behaviour if you consider anything further than the middle of next week.
Doesn't the highlighted section come under the heading of a self sustaining belief? God creates everything good and if it's good it must have been created by God.
I cannot accept the implication that nothing good can ever be done by a non-Christian.
What is God Saying to You?
Bryn Mawr:-6
I can definitely agree on that last point.
What I cannot accept is that all of humanity is totally sinful. First of all we have to consider what the word sin means. I can also agree that all people do make mistakes. That is part of the human condition. Some might call those mistakes sin but one again it hinges on a definition. Mainstream theologians today do not believe in the idea of original sin.
If an innocent child dies it dies because it became ill or it was in an accident, or it had a major birth defect. Now, we may use that death to instill in us more consideration of children but the death is not the fault of God.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I can definitely agree on that last point.
What I cannot accept is that all of humanity is totally sinful. First of all we have to consider what the word sin means. I can also agree that all people do make mistakes. That is part of the human condition. Some might call those mistakes sin but one again it hinges on a definition. Mainstream theologians today do not believe in the idea of original sin.
If an innocent child dies it dies because it became ill or it was in an accident, or it had a major birth defect. Now, we may use that death to instill in us more consideration of children but the death is not the fault of God.
Shalom
Ted:-6
What is God Saying to You?
God reinforces on a daily basis that "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and that it applies to each individual.
Ever try to change someone?
Ever try to change someone?
What is God Saying to You?
Two problems arise here.
If we are truly free and able to make our own decisions and if as Jesus says we shall know the truth and it shall make us free I fail to see how, if God has a plan and is forcing the world to move in that direction, we indeed have any freedom. It is like the freedom a victim in a bank robbery has; you are free but either do as you are told or I will shoot you.
The second problem arises with wars and war crimes; the invasion of Canaan, the millions killed in WWI, Stalin's mass murders as well as Hitler's genocide or the genocide in the Balkans. We see innocent millions being murdered. If God is omnipotent why did he not intervene?
Today in Africa innocent children die every moment for want of food and medications that the west has in abundance beyond their needs. Where is the so called Christian west when it comes to the needs of the third world? Where is the Christian west when it comes to poverty and homelessness within its own territory?
Shalom
Ted:-6
If we are truly free and able to make our own decisions and if as Jesus says we shall know the truth and it shall make us free I fail to see how, if God has a plan and is forcing the world to move in that direction, we indeed have any freedom. It is like the freedom a victim in a bank robbery has; you are free but either do as you are told or I will shoot you.
The second problem arises with wars and war crimes; the invasion of Canaan, the millions killed in WWI, Stalin's mass murders as well as Hitler's genocide or the genocide in the Balkans. We see innocent millions being murdered. If God is omnipotent why did he not intervene?
Today in Africa innocent children die every moment for want of food and medications that the west has in abundance beyond their needs. Where is the so called Christian west when it comes to the needs of the third world? Where is the Christian west when it comes to poverty and homelessness within its own territory?
Shalom
Ted:-6
What is God Saying to You?
Jester;733894 wrote: No, it is impossible to observe all; our capabilities are limited so it is revealed to us as we are capable of handling the depth and intricacies of Gods creation. Its like a small boy trying to carry a huge suit case, struggling as he may he cannot lift it, his father comes along side and takes up just what the child cannot carry, the child continues to struggle and he helps in the process, and the suit case is now moving towards its destination.
Maybe that’s what you’re saying. But, we do not have to observe it all, we can see a glimpse of it, not even understand it and it points to a wisdom and depth beyond our capabilities. Then just like the help with the suitcase, God reveals an analogy that makes perfect sense to us using creation as the basis of His order. In fact I think the majority of the time God wants us to leave the big picture to him and let us follow just his plan for us in the greater scheme of the big picture.
It was the idea of deliberately limiting what you look for / at that I was objecting to.
True, we are limited and cannot see everything at once but we can strive to see as much as possible - look at the sky and the wide open spaces, not down at your feet
Maybe that’s what you’re saying. But, we do not have to observe it all, we can see a glimpse of it, not even understand it and it points to a wisdom and depth beyond our capabilities. Then just like the help with the suitcase, God reveals an analogy that makes perfect sense to us using creation as the basis of His order. In fact I think the majority of the time God wants us to leave the big picture to him and let us follow just his plan for us in the greater scheme of the big picture.
It was the idea of deliberately limiting what you look for / at that I was objecting to.
True, we are limited and cannot see everything at once but we can strive to see as much as possible - look at the sky and the wide open spaces, not down at your feet
What is God Saying to You?
Jester;733895 wrote: I agree with you in some ways here. God is good and all he creates is good, that is true, God created man and man strayed. Is man capable of doing good again?, yes absolutely he can. Many good upright moral men that I know do good all the time, they are model citizens and obey all laws and are truthful men. Inside our definition of good they certainly do it. But is it pure good? Does what thy do have the clear motivation of selflessness? Were they motivated out of love to do all the good they do, or do they do good because there are negative outcomes in the world for doing bad? Sorry, I should have qualified my definition of good.
Doing true good comes from with in, not from without. I don’t personally believe that man without God is capable of the correct motivation for doing good, making it pure good.
As to the self sustaining comment, God is much more than good, good is one of his attributes, but he is All Sovereign, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and so much more that he cannot be compared to anything known to man, nor do I expect a comparison to anything that is not known yet. God does good because he is all those other things and good as well.
If a man performs a good action, knowing it to be a good action and does it rather than doing a bad act that he believes he can get away with, is it any less good because it is for his own satisfaction rather than prompted by God?
I agree, if a person does a good act for the sole purpose of gaining benefit then it is a lesser act than if he does it for Philanthropic reasons but it sounds like you are trying to define good as that which comes from God.
Are you restricting your definition of God in the highlighted section to the Christian God?
If so then I cannot in any way accept your stance.
Doing true good comes from with in, not from without. I don’t personally believe that man without God is capable of the correct motivation for doing good, making it pure good.
As to the self sustaining comment, God is much more than good, good is one of his attributes, but he is All Sovereign, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and so much more that he cannot be compared to anything known to man, nor do I expect a comparison to anything that is not known yet. God does good because he is all those other things and good as well.
If a man performs a good action, knowing it to be a good action and does it rather than doing a bad act that he believes he can get away with, is it any less good because it is for his own satisfaction rather than prompted by God?
I agree, if a person does a good act for the sole purpose of gaining benefit then it is a lesser act than if he does it for Philanthropic reasons but it sounds like you are trying to define good as that which comes from God.
Are you restricting your definition of God in the highlighted section to the Christian God?
If so then I cannot in any way accept your stance.
What is God Saying to You?
jester:-6
It depends on what you mean by mainline. Generally mainline theologians refers to highly trained and highly intelligent men and women of the centre and left. So I will restate that mainline theologians generally do not accept original sin. I'm not talking about extremists.
As far as your rape story goes that is of course an extreme case. Most folks do not engage in such behaviour. Sin is separation from God.
As far as your propensity to do wrong goes it is only one side of the coin. There are those who also have a propensity to do the right thing and for the right motivation. Man is not born in sin. That was Augustine's major hang up with sexuality. Man is born with the possibility of going either way.
The constant talk of sin and evil and everyone being a sinner misses the whole point of the Christian faith. It is to dwell on one small part of the human condition and ignore the rest.
Matt 25 presents a clear picture of what God expects of us. Inasmuch as you did it to the least of these you did it to me. He accepts that if one does something for the right motivation, one has done it to Him and thus what was expected of him. There are no provisos here about being saved or saying the name Jesus. They do not exist and to suggest that they are implied, is to add to the scriptures what is not there in either the Greek or the English.
Micah 6:8 tells us that God requires that we do justice, love kindness (be compassionate) and walk humbly with "your God". Matt 22 tells us that the greatest commandment is love of God and neighbour. 1 Cor. 13:13 tells us again that love is the greatest. 1 John 4:8 tells us "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God;everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:16 "God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them.
The love we are speaking of is not any wishy washy mushy love such as "fileo" or "eros" though those are important but "agape" which means unconditional love. Many in all the great faiths of the world display this love, not just Christians. Such love moves people to do the right thing for the right reason.
So I leave the judging and the punishment to God. That is his and his alone.
And as one great church father said "Evangelize, yes but with words only if necessary". In other words walk the talk and forget the talk for the most part. Actions speak louder then words. Meet people's needs and do it with unconditional love. That is what we are called to do.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It depends on what you mean by mainline. Generally mainline theologians refers to highly trained and highly intelligent men and women of the centre and left. So I will restate that mainline theologians generally do not accept original sin. I'm not talking about extremists.
As far as your rape story goes that is of course an extreme case. Most folks do not engage in such behaviour. Sin is separation from God.
As far as your propensity to do wrong goes it is only one side of the coin. There are those who also have a propensity to do the right thing and for the right motivation. Man is not born in sin. That was Augustine's major hang up with sexuality. Man is born with the possibility of going either way.
The constant talk of sin and evil and everyone being a sinner misses the whole point of the Christian faith. It is to dwell on one small part of the human condition and ignore the rest.
Matt 25 presents a clear picture of what God expects of us. Inasmuch as you did it to the least of these you did it to me. He accepts that if one does something for the right motivation, one has done it to Him and thus what was expected of him. There are no provisos here about being saved or saying the name Jesus. They do not exist and to suggest that they are implied, is to add to the scriptures what is not there in either the Greek or the English.
Micah 6:8 tells us that God requires that we do justice, love kindness (be compassionate) and walk humbly with "your God". Matt 22 tells us that the greatest commandment is love of God and neighbour. 1 Cor. 13:13 tells us again that love is the greatest. 1 John 4:8 tells us "Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God;everyone who loves is born of God and knows God." 1 John 4:16 "God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them.
The love we are speaking of is not any wishy washy mushy love such as "fileo" or "eros" though those are important but "agape" which means unconditional love. Many in all the great faiths of the world display this love, not just Christians. Such love moves people to do the right thing for the right reason.
So I leave the judging and the punishment to God. That is his and his alone.
And as one great church father said "Evangelize, yes but with words only if necessary". In other words walk the talk and forget the talk for the most part. Actions speak louder then words. Meet people's needs and do it with unconditional love. That is what we are called to do.
Shalom
Ted:-6
What is God Saying to You?
For some the glass is half empty. For others it is half full.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
What is God Saying to You?
Bryn Mawr;733949 wrote: If a man performs a good action, knowing it to be a good action and does it rather than doing a bad act that he believes he can get away with, is it any less good because it is for his own satisfaction rather than prompted by God?
I agree, if a person does a good act for the sole purpose of gaining benefit then it is a lesser act than if he does it for Philanthropic reasons but it sounds like you are trying to define good as that which comes from God.
Are you restricting your definition of God in the highlighted section to the Christian God?
If so then I cannot in any way accept your stance.
This has raised a topic that I've been struggling with for a while. You see, I view every action as gaining benefit for the self in some way and so I don't know how to interpret "philanthropic reasons." Would this be an action carried out without thought? And when I say that, I don't mean a "thoughtless" action in the way that we would generally use the word, but an action carried out, well, spontaneously.
I agree, if a person does a good act for the sole purpose of gaining benefit then it is a lesser act than if he does it for Philanthropic reasons but it sounds like you are trying to define good as that which comes from God.
Are you restricting your definition of God in the highlighted section to the Christian God?
If so then I cannot in any way accept your stance.
This has raised a topic that I've been struggling with for a while. You see, I view every action as gaining benefit for the self in some way and so I don't know how to interpret "philanthropic reasons." Would this be an action carried out without thought? And when I say that, I don't mean a "thoughtless" action in the way that we would generally use the word, but an action carried out, well, spontaneously.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
What is God Saying to You?
theia:-6
Think about altruism that might help. Why does one man sacrifice his life for another?
Shalom
Ted:-6
Think about altruism that might help. Why does one man sacrifice his life for another?
Shalom
Ted:-6
What is God Saying to You?
The times that I have listened to God, I couldn't put into words what was said. I tried to find a way to retain the meaning of what was said but as soon as I tried to capture it, it wouldn't be contained.
The words of God, imo, can not be expressed in the limited vocabulary of humankind.
The words of God, imo, can not be expressed in the limited vocabulary of humankind.
What is God Saying to You?
koan:-6
Excellent. What I've believed for a long time.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Excellent. What I've believed for a long time.
Shalom
Ted:-6
What is God Saying to You?
Ted;733976 wrote: theia:-6
Think about altruism that might help. Why does one man sacrifice his life for another?
Shalom
Ted:-6
I actually don't know the answer to that, Ted, and would appreciate hearing what you think.
Think about altruism that might help. Why does one man sacrifice his life for another?
Shalom
Ted:-6
I actually don't know the answer to that, Ted, and would appreciate hearing what you think.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
What is God Saying to You?
theia;733971 wrote: This has raised a topic that I've been struggling with for a while. You see, I view every action as gaining benefit for the self in some way and so I don't know how to interpret "philanthropic reasons." Would this be an action carried out without thought? And when I say that, I don't mean a "thoughtless" action in the way that we would generally use the word, but an action carried out, well, spontaneously.
Not spontaneous, acts carried out for the benefit of the recipient with no thought of gaining benefit for the giver - indeed, usually at material cost to the giver.
It could be seen as an attempt to gain self esteem or self satisfaction but would you see that as the cause of the action?
Not spontaneous, acts carried out for the benefit of the recipient with no thought of gaining benefit for the giver - indeed, usually at material cost to the giver.
It could be seen as an attempt to gain self esteem or self satisfaction but would you see that as the cause of the action?
What is God Saying to You?
theia:-6
The best answer I can give is "agape" which is the Greek word for the love of God. It is unconditional love. It is an action done because there is a need. In the case of one life for another it is best found it the Bible "No great love has a man than he should lay down his life for another."
Shalom
Ted:-6
The best answer I can give is "agape" which is the Greek word for the love of God. It is unconditional love. It is an action done because there is a need. In the case of one life for another it is best found it the Bible "No great love has a man than he should lay down his life for another."
Shalom
Ted:-6
What is God Saying to You?
Bryn Mawr;734016 wrote: Not spontaneous, acts carried out for the benefit of the recipient with no thought of gaining benefit for the giver - indeed, usually at material cost to the giver.
It could be seen as an attempt to gain self esteem or self satisfaction but would you see that as the cause of the action?
Bryn, I can see the spontaneous act of someone jumping into a raging sea to resue another as an act that wouldn't be considering the benefit to the rescuer and might well cost her or him something. And, for example, if someone came up to me in the street and begged me for all the money in my purse and I gave it to them with no further thought, I could see this as an action that benefitted the other and not me. But I'm wondering if any action that involved thought and deliberation might well not involve altruism and might be merely fulfilling the need of the giver.
It could be seen as an attempt to gain self esteem or self satisfaction but would you see that as the cause of the action?
Bryn, I can see the spontaneous act of someone jumping into a raging sea to resue another as an act that wouldn't be considering the benefit to the rescuer and might well cost her or him something. And, for example, if someone came up to me in the street and begged me for all the money in my purse and I gave it to them with no further thought, I could see this as an action that benefitted the other and not me. But I'm wondering if any action that involved thought and deliberation might well not involve altruism and might be merely fulfilling the need of the giver.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
What is God Saying to You?
Ted;734036 wrote: theia:-6
The best answer I can give is "agape" which is the Greek word for the love of God. It is unconditional love. It is an action done because there is a need. In the case of one life for another it is best found it the Bible "No great love has a man than he should lay down his life for another."
Shalom
Ted:-6
Ted, does this mean his physical life? Or his way of being? Or both or either? You see, I feel we can sort of die to what we are in this "life" without losing our bodies, and I wonder if this quotation refers to either way of laying down our life?
The best answer I can give is "agape" which is the Greek word for the love of God. It is unconditional love. It is an action done because there is a need. In the case of one life for another it is best found it the Bible "No great love has a man than he should lay down his life for another."
Shalom
Ted:-6
Ted, does this mean his physical life? Or his way of being? Or both or either? You see, I feel we can sort of die to what we are in this "life" without losing our bodies, and I wonder if this quotation refers to either way of laying down our life?
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
What is God Saying to You?
theia;734050 wrote: Bryn, I can see the spontaneous act of someone jumping into a raging sea to resue another as an act that wouldn't be considering the benefit to the rescuer and might well cost her or him something. And, for example, if someone came up to me in the street and begged me for all the money in my purse and I gave it to them with no further thought, I could see this as an action that benefitted the other and not me. But I'm wondering if any action that involved thought and deliberation might well not involve altruism and might be merely fulfilling the need of the giver.
Does the fact that a person gets satisfaction from making a gift make the giving any the less good?
Does the fact that a person gets satisfaction from making a gift make the giving any the less good?
What is God Saying to You?
Bryn Mawr;734058 wrote: Does the fact that a person gets satisfaction from making a gift make the giving any the less good?
No, but we tend to respect the giver for his gift and give little thought for the recipient who has enabled the giver to feel that satisfaction. Both actions are good
No, but we tend to respect the giver for his gift and give little thought for the recipient who has enabled the giver to feel that satisfaction. Both actions are good
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
What is God Saying to You?
theia;734063 wrote: No, but we tend to respect the giver for his gift and give little thought for the recipient who has enabled the giver to feel that satisfaction. Both actions are good
Rich man, seeing a need in his home town, puts up the money to build a shelter for the homeless. Wishing to remain anonymous he uses a front to make the donation.
Are we to praise the homeless for making the donation possible?
Not the best example maybe but you get my point?
Rich man, seeing a need in his home town, puts up the money to build a shelter for the homeless. Wishing to remain anonymous he uses a front to make the donation.
Are we to praise the homeless for making the donation possible?
Not the best example maybe but you get my point?
What is God Saying to You?
Jester;734105 wrote: No, the gift itself and the act is good but the motivation isnt pure. For that we recive accolades of man but there is no reward of that from above.
Let me give you another example that changes the object from an act to an expression.
Last week we attended a tree lighting ceremony for our towns Christmas celebration. The crowd was singing all sorts of songs and severl groups of different types took the stage and performed chrsitmas carols in various forms from rock to jazz versions, it was quite lively and entertaining, and they contained sogns of worship. The effect on the crowd was that they livened up and cheeed and clapped at the performers. But then a yougn lady got up, without an introduction she quietly stepped to the podium and mic, and with a still pure quit voice sang silnet night. The crowd was dead silent as she sang, and the focus was not on her, but on the words, the crowd suddenyl changed form outward entertainment to inner worship of God, and most didnt even know it. When she was done singing I heard quiet 'amens' from the crowd and there was a few minutes of a strange feeling as the crowd actually hesitated in rewarding her with loud shouts and clapping. Her pure motives moved out through her to the worshipping nature of her singing and folks could tell inwardly that the accolades of her performance were towards God, not herself.
Thats as near as I can get to expressing the difference.
I've seen exactly that effect in the secular environment of a Folk Festival - it was very moving for everybody there and was talked about for days afterwards, but there was nothing religious about it.
You are using your definition of pure as part of a circular argument to prove your case - it's like pulling youself up by your own bootstraps, it does not work.
Let me give you another example that changes the object from an act to an expression.
Last week we attended a tree lighting ceremony for our towns Christmas celebration. The crowd was singing all sorts of songs and severl groups of different types took the stage and performed chrsitmas carols in various forms from rock to jazz versions, it was quite lively and entertaining, and they contained sogns of worship. The effect on the crowd was that they livened up and cheeed and clapped at the performers. But then a yougn lady got up, without an introduction she quietly stepped to the podium and mic, and with a still pure quit voice sang silnet night. The crowd was dead silent as she sang, and the focus was not on her, but on the words, the crowd suddenyl changed form outward entertainment to inner worship of God, and most didnt even know it. When she was done singing I heard quiet 'amens' from the crowd and there was a few minutes of a strange feeling as the crowd actually hesitated in rewarding her with loud shouts and clapping. Her pure motives moved out through her to the worshipping nature of her singing and folks could tell inwardly that the accolades of her performance were towards God, not herself.
Thats as near as I can get to expressing the difference.
I've seen exactly that effect in the secular environment of a Folk Festival - it was very moving for everybody there and was talked about for days afterwards, but there was nothing religious about it.
You are using your definition of pure as part of a circular argument to prove your case - it's like pulling youself up by your own bootstraps, it does not work.
What is God Saying to You?
Jester;734119 wrote: Ah, I see.
Hmmm, not really.
Can we agree that there is motivations for doing things and they are either selfish or selfless?
We can agree that there are motivations that are selfish and those that are selfless - we cannot agree that all motivations that are selfless are, by definition, from God.
Jester wrote: I am thinking that my way of thinking is too 'religious' for a common discussion. there are things I hold and say and understand and I argue from that are so apparent to me to be the truth but are not widely held or understood in the world. I often get into these discussions and I'm using the word in a religious or bilical manner and they dont have the same meaning anymore, they have been corrupted an watered down by man.
Then define your terms and we will discuss it - if it is the truth then it can be shown.
Jester wrote: In order to help you to understand I'd have to prove to you that God rewards those with a pure motivation, then Id have to define what a pure motivation is biblically, then Id have to prove that God has the power to dispense a reward and so on. It would take me days of research to express all that.
I just dont have the time.
Its not a circular arguement, its a biblical understanding. Fact.
Defining pure as coming from God and saying only those at one with God can perform pure acts is a circular argument. Fact.
Hmmm, not really.
Can we agree that there is motivations for doing things and they are either selfish or selfless?
We can agree that there are motivations that are selfish and those that are selfless - we cannot agree that all motivations that are selfless are, by definition, from God.
Jester wrote: I am thinking that my way of thinking is too 'religious' for a common discussion. there are things I hold and say and understand and I argue from that are so apparent to me to be the truth but are not widely held or understood in the world. I often get into these discussions and I'm using the word in a religious or bilical manner and they dont have the same meaning anymore, they have been corrupted an watered down by man.
Then define your terms and we will discuss it - if it is the truth then it can be shown.
Jester wrote: In order to help you to understand I'd have to prove to you that God rewards those with a pure motivation, then Id have to define what a pure motivation is biblically, then Id have to prove that God has the power to dispense a reward and so on. It would take me days of research to express all that.
I just dont have the time.
Its not a circular arguement, its a biblical understanding. Fact.
Defining pure as coming from God and saying only those at one with God can perform pure acts is a circular argument. Fact.
What is God Saying to You?
JAB:-6
An excellent question.
Where do I feel it? Withing my whole being.
Shalom
Ted:-6
An excellent question.
Where do I feel it? Withing my whole being.
Shalom
Ted:-6
What is God Saying to You?
jester:-6
I will address "mistake" first. If a young child decides to tell a lie I would call that a mistake. I do not believe for one moment that God is too concerned about that. The same goes for someone who fails to pay their parking fine or their speeding fine.
As for human nature, I guess we will have to disagree. I most certainly do not accept that a 4 month old child is a sinner. Nor is he loaded with original sin. In my opinion that is pure nonsense.
I will agree with you that we must come to understand ourselves. Absolutely. I have no problem with that at all. However, the constant referral to sin and death etc is to ignore 90% of the gospel of Jesus Christ; the Good News of the Kingdom.
If we go to Matt 25, I would agree that he separates the sheep from the goats. However, a careful reading shows that the goats who are condemned are those who "Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." Matt 25:45. Those who are welcomed into the kingdom are the sheep who "Truly I tell you just as you did it to the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me."
These verses say absolutely nothing about believers, non-believers or Christians. To put that in is to add to the scriptures. Of course there is no literal hell. Hell is separation from God. The whole idea of a lake of fire and burning without being consumed and thus suffering eternally is pure myth.
As far as it being "good works" goes it has absolutely nothing to do with good works but with motivation as per Acts 10:31 ""but in every nation anyone who fears (reveres) him and does what is right is acceptable to him." Even the Muslims revere God. They may call him Allah but it is the one God. "Hear O Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is one." Middle eastern Christians often refer to God as Allah. (Dr. Farooq Ghasi). We are clearly told that God judges the heart. Neither you nor I can do that.
"without knowing God one is not capable . . ." Who are we to judge who does and does not know God. All of the world's great faiths are ultimately worshiping the one and only God. How do they know what is right and what is wrong. We have been told that God has written his laws in our hearts.
You are so right about the difference between judging and discernment. But it is a very fine line and one that is easily crossed. If one looks at an individual and says he does not know Jesus he is condemned is not discernment it is judging. God alone knows who is condemned. I would not dare to make such a judgment. That is God's role alone.
As far as telling whether one has the right motives or not I'm afraid that I do not have the gift to judge a person's motives unless one is openly a criminal or out for his own gain. As far as listening to someone preach goes as I have said talk is cheap. If they see by ones life and actions that one has a different and positive way of living they will ask and then are open to listening. If not then they will not listen and make it part of their life. If I go and speak to people in a different culture and language about things they do not understand and cannot understand then I have not done my job. If they see by my life and actions they too might decide to follow.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I will address "mistake" first. If a young child decides to tell a lie I would call that a mistake. I do not believe for one moment that God is too concerned about that. The same goes for someone who fails to pay their parking fine or their speeding fine.
As for human nature, I guess we will have to disagree. I most certainly do not accept that a 4 month old child is a sinner. Nor is he loaded with original sin. In my opinion that is pure nonsense.
I will agree with you that we must come to understand ourselves. Absolutely. I have no problem with that at all. However, the constant referral to sin and death etc is to ignore 90% of the gospel of Jesus Christ; the Good News of the Kingdom.
If we go to Matt 25, I would agree that he separates the sheep from the goats. However, a careful reading shows that the goats who are condemned are those who "Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." Matt 25:45. Those who are welcomed into the kingdom are the sheep who "Truly I tell you just as you did it to the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me."
These verses say absolutely nothing about believers, non-believers or Christians. To put that in is to add to the scriptures. Of course there is no literal hell. Hell is separation from God. The whole idea of a lake of fire and burning without being consumed and thus suffering eternally is pure myth.
As far as it being "good works" goes it has absolutely nothing to do with good works but with motivation as per Acts 10:31 ""but in every nation anyone who fears (reveres) him and does what is right is acceptable to him." Even the Muslims revere God. They may call him Allah but it is the one God. "Hear O Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is one." Middle eastern Christians often refer to God as Allah. (Dr. Farooq Ghasi). We are clearly told that God judges the heart. Neither you nor I can do that.
"without knowing God one is not capable . . ." Who are we to judge who does and does not know God. All of the world's great faiths are ultimately worshiping the one and only God. How do they know what is right and what is wrong. We have been told that God has written his laws in our hearts.
You are so right about the difference between judging and discernment. But it is a very fine line and one that is easily crossed. If one looks at an individual and says he does not know Jesus he is condemned is not discernment it is judging. God alone knows who is condemned. I would not dare to make such a judgment. That is God's role alone.
As far as telling whether one has the right motives or not I'm afraid that I do not have the gift to judge a person's motives unless one is openly a criminal or out for his own gain. As far as listening to someone preach goes as I have said talk is cheap. If they see by ones life and actions that one has a different and positive way of living they will ask and then are open to listening. If not then they will not listen and make it part of their life. If I go and speak to people in a different culture and language about things they do not understand and cannot understand then I have not done my job. If they see by my life and actions they too might decide to follow.
Shalom
Ted:-6
What is God Saying to You?
jester:-6
Where is the freedom in "either do as I say or you gonna burn buster". That is not freedom that is coercion. I would agree that our decisions affect some of those around us. That is perfectly natural. It seems to me that God's plan is not so detailed. He wants what is best for man. "He is not willing that any should perish." As far as ancient prophesy goes it was about the time of the prophets and not about some distant time in the future. Anderson, "Understanding the Old Testament"; Borg, "Reading the Bible Again For the First Time"; Bible translator J. B. Phillips in commentary pages in his translation of the New Testament. The Character of God is well summed up in Matt 22:34ff and Micah 6:8 and Matt. 25:31ff. That is the character of God as far as we humans can grasp the essentially unknowable.
When it comes to war and atrocities there is a point of view that does explain it. If we turn to Paul's second letter to the Corinthians 12:9 we read "Christ's power is made perfect in weakness." In 2 Cor12:10 we read "I am content with weakness, for when I am weak, then I am strong." and in 2 Cor 13:4 "Christ was crucified in weakness." Because of God's love for his creation being so strong it has qualified strength. He has given us free will and to interfere is to take away that free will. Thus when Deitrich Bonhoeffer was suffering at the end of the Nazi rope 3 days before liberation God was there suffering with him and giving him the strength to go on. God has chosen his love over his strength. It is called agape.
You asked "where is the rest of the world?" We in the west who are supposedly Christian are called to serve the impoverished and those suffering injustice. The western world uses some 80% to 90% of the world's resources. The western world controls the vast majority of the world's wealth. The western world lives quite high. We have more than enough food. We have more than enough money. We have more than enough resources to assist the third world. Our lack of actions speaks louder than do our wonderful religious words. We as a culture are not doing what we are called to do and yet we have the gall to call ourselves Christians. What retired CEO is worth a pension of 50 million dollars a year. What person needs millions a year to enjoy living. As a western society we rape the world and wallow in our wealth. And at the same time we are aiding in the total destruction of the human race.
In short, we as Christians fail to follow in the footsteps of our Lord. I don't mean you personally or anyone else including myself but corporately we fail miserably. Because other Christian areas of the world would appear not to does nothing to exonerate us.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Where is the freedom in "either do as I say or you gonna burn buster". That is not freedom that is coercion. I would agree that our decisions affect some of those around us. That is perfectly natural. It seems to me that God's plan is not so detailed. He wants what is best for man. "He is not willing that any should perish." As far as ancient prophesy goes it was about the time of the prophets and not about some distant time in the future. Anderson, "Understanding the Old Testament"; Borg, "Reading the Bible Again For the First Time"; Bible translator J. B. Phillips in commentary pages in his translation of the New Testament. The Character of God is well summed up in Matt 22:34ff and Micah 6:8 and Matt. 25:31ff. That is the character of God as far as we humans can grasp the essentially unknowable.
When it comes to war and atrocities there is a point of view that does explain it. If we turn to Paul's second letter to the Corinthians 12:9 we read "Christ's power is made perfect in weakness." In 2 Cor12:10 we read "I am content with weakness, for when I am weak, then I am strong." and in 2 Cor 13:4 "Christ was crucified in weakness." Because of God's love for his creation being so strong it has qualified strength. He has given us free will and to interfere is to take away that free will. Thus when Deitrich Bonhoeffer was suffering at the end of the Nazi rope 3 days before liberation God was there suffering with him and giving him the strength to go on. God has chosen his love over his strength. It is called agape.
You asked "where is the rest of the world?" We in the west who are supposedly Christian are called to serve the impoverished and those suffering injustice. The western world uses some 80% to 90% of the world's resources. The western world controls the vast majority of the world's wealth. The western world lives quite high. We have more than enough food. We have more than enough money. We have more than enough resources to assist the third world. Our lack of actions speaks louder than do our wonderful religious words. We as a culture are not doing what we are called to do and yet we have the gall to call ourselves Christians. What retired CEO is worth a pension of 50 million dollars a year. What person needs millions a year to enjoy living. As a western society we rape the world and wallow in our wealth. And at the same time we are aiding in the total destruction of the human race.
In short, we as Christians fail to follow in the footsteps of our Lord. I don't mean you personally or anyone else including myself but corporately we fail miserably. Because other Christian areas of the world would appear not to does nothing to exonerate us.
Shalom
Ted:-6
What is God Saying to You?
jester:-6
I have nothing but admiration for you and your work with the UN. You served the cause of peace in one way or another. Blessings for that.
I cannot, however, believe that some little innocent child was suffering probably unto death because these people rejected God. They were suffering because of human greed among a small minority. Where were we, corporatively?
Why do I have to watch a commercial, on TV, presented by the Canadian Leprosy mission. They plead for money to buy some antibiotics for the children. Meanwhile our drug companies continue to make obscene profits. Our countries continue to build up arms. It has been estimated that 5% of the world's arms money would feed all of the starving children in the world. This, of course, pertains to all nations and not just a few.
It may sound a little crass but much money is spent on trying to save their souls while they are starving to death. That is a sin. That is an atrocity.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have nothing but admiration for you and your work with the UN. You served the cause of peace in one way or another. Blessings for that.
I cannot, however, believe that some little innocent child was suffering probably unto death because these people rejected God. They were suffering because of human greed among a small minority. Where were we, corporatively?
Why do I have to watch a commercial, on TV, presented by the Canadian Leprosy mission. They plead for money to buy some antibiotics for the children. Meanwhile our drug companies continue to make obscene profits. Our countries continue to build up arms. It has been estimated that 5% of the world's arms money would feed all of the starving children in the world. This, of course, pertains to all nations and not just a few.
It may sound a little crass but much money is spent on trying to save their souls while they are starving to death. That is a sin. That is an atrocity.
Shalom
Ted:-6