don't let your child leave the country for grad trip

[lady cop]

many of you are aware there is a lovely young high school graduate missing in aruba. she is 18 and was on her class grad trip. she is probably dead. ..........this takes me back. when my son's class was planning their grad trip to cancun i called a meeting of all the parents ( who knew me and listened) not just the health concerns, but the fact it costs a fortune to get your kid out of a mexican jail, IF you can get them out.. i felt there were plenty of places to go in the US to party. key west, panama city, daytona. well now there is a big backlash to our kids going out of the US jurisdiction for HS grad trips. please parents, don't allow it. it is the travel agencies promoting these trips, not the schools. the hell with them.

[CARLA]

I agree, it's a shame but once they are out of the US and under age it can be dangerous.

This is such a sad story. I hope that somehow, some way she is alive, but it doesn't look good.

My Niece plays on the National U-21 Soccer Team now. Prior to that she has played on the National u-17,u-18, u-19 team. She has traveled all over the world. Each and everytime they travel out of the country they are provided guards, and travel as a group in a bus with police escorts always. They aren't allowed out on their own ever period. They have to stay with the group always. They take no chances with them ever. They aren't allowed to go to clubs, or bars.

I agree LC grad trips out of the country these days is just to dangerous. :-3

[spot]

Perhaps it depends on the child, Lady? My 18 year old daughter got back last month from back-packing as a couple of girls before university. The two of them spent months going round Madagascar, Vietnam and Cambodia. She says, and I agree with her, that you have to take opportunities as they come up. She feels she was safe, I feel she was safe. Neither of us feel that there's such a thing as absolute safety, it's all relative.

Why do you feel that foreign tourist travel is more dangerous than domestic tourist travel, for an 18 year old girl? I suspect accurate figures would show the reverse.

[lady cop]

Spot, i understand what you are saying, and perhaps statistics would agree. my only point is, if they are just going for a party, they need to stay in the states. these grad trips involve a lot of drinking and it's usually a wild time, i would rather see them do it where we can retrieve them if necessary. the grad trips are all about the party, not an educational experience. that's a different thing entirely.

[spot]

Ah. That's my error, then - I thought the age at which children were allowed to first taste alcohol in the US was 21? Isn't it conspiracy to commit a crime, or something, to take them abroad with the intention that they should be indulged that way?

[lady cop]

the travel agencies involved in these grad trips indemnify themselves. for them, it's all about the kickback. this has nothing to do with drinking age, my concern is these kids go a little wild when they have graduated , they want to get away from parents and rules...but they put themselves in jeopardy they do not understand. when they are in another jurisdiction, crazy behavior can bring a life sentence. it can become impossible to get them out. look at the poor girl who just got sentenced to 20 years in Bali for marijuana. she was looking at the death penalty for grass! that child WILL do the 20 years. and the prosecutor has the right to appeal, they still want death.

[spot]

Would you say that "crazy behavior can bring a life sentence" is fair sentencing, on the part of the local court? Or are you implying that the local authorities pick on the tourists because they're corrupt? I'm not sure where you're leading toward.

[lady cop]

my only point is that whether the local courts are fair or not, the US kids who are going on grad trips should stay in the US. in case their parents need to get them out of some minor trouble. minor trouble which could be major trouble elsewhere. there is no need for these kids to go party in other jurisdictions. if they come to key west for example, and break some law, the local judge makes them pick up trash on the beach, doesn't sentence them to 20 years or death.

[spot]

I'm sure he doesn't, for a breach of a drinking law, but I can't imagine that you think that would happen in a different jurisdiction within range of a grad party, either. Equally, if one of them drives and kills someone DUI, surely you'd expect them to do 20 years from the local judge.

I agree that it's going to be easier for a parent to handle if it's within the USA, but I don't see that it's either more likely to happen, or more likely to be a stiffer sentence, in Mexico or the Caribbean than it is within the States.

[john8pies]

My sympathies and prayers are with this family. Forty years ago when we were on an educational cruise around the Med, a 12 year old girl died of a brain haemorrage. Ten years after that,her 14 year old brother was stabbed to death in a playground fight. My thoughts always go out to the parents who have children who die, but to lose your only two children like that in such bizarre and tragic circumstances is truly appalling.

[David813]

So many people, including adults, think their rights as US citizens follow them around the globe. This isn't true, and many have found that out the hard way. I knew of a couple that were arrested in Mexico for marijuana possession. It was a nightmare for them and their families as they spent over $25,000 to get them out of jail, for a quarter ounce! Much worse can happen as we see with the Aruba case. I question whether a high school graduation warrants such an exotic trip! You are EXPECTED to graduate high school. I got a new car stereo and I was thrilled! Maybe kids are over rewarded here in the US. Surely the Aruba case illustrates not all grads are ready for the responsibility some lavish gifts require.

[spot]

The suggestion was made earlier that "the travel agencies involved in these grad trips indemnify themselves", when I said "I thought the age at which children were allowed to first taste alcohol in the US was 21? Isn't it conspiracy to commit a crime, or something, to take them abroad with the intention that they should be indulged that way?" I don't understand how a company can take out an indemnity against prosecution for committing an offense. Am I wrong in thinking that there's a potential case of conspiracy, if these are in actual fact drinking jaunts? Am I in fact mistaken about the age at which the consumption of alcohol becomes legal in the US? I admit ignorance on the subject - in the UK there is no age below which it is a crime to provide a person with alcohol, in a domestic setting.

[David813]

Of course businesses will protect their cash at all costs. Money comes first, always. The chaperones and the girl's parents are accountable here. The anguish they are going through now must be unimaginable but a Caribbean party vacation is just too much for a high school graduate! Surely these kinds of lavish trips are popular and 98% of the time nothing like this happens.

[spot]

You're telling me, David, that's it's legal in the USA to indemnify a company against the risk of being found guilty of a crime? That is utterly impossible in the UK. It's unenforceable, even if it were agreed to by an insurer. There is an overriding interest of the court that its penalty should disadvantage the company. The court would confiscate the indemnity payment and then fine both parties for contempt, as soon as the payment became public knowledge.

[David813]

spot wrote: You're telling me, David, that's it's legal in the USA to indemnify a company against the risk of being found guilty of a crime? That is utterly impossible in the UK. It's unenforceable, even if it were agreed to by an insurer. There is an overriding interest of the court that its penalty should disadvantage the company. The court would confiscate the indemnity payment and then fine both parties for contempt, as soon as the payment became public knowledge.I'm not certain if the trip in question was advertised as a "Party Trip." Even if it were, and the girl is 18, the company would have every right to make sure they weren't held responsible for anything that happens. Business Comes First here Spot.

[spot]

You know, it's such a simple question, all I really want is either a yes or a no. I still don't know the answer.

[lady cop]

the travel agency is responsible only for actual travel and the hotel rooms which were contracted. there is a lot of boilerplate fine print as well. they are not responsible for what the kids do there. and at 18 they are of legal age to do what they want. they do not advertise "this is a booze cruise". the entire point of this thread was to warn parents that letting grads go to a foreign jurisdiction can be the source of a lot of legal headaches if the grad breaks some local ordinance. it wasn't about the probable murder of the girl, or about travel agency responsibilities. i imagine that can be googled.

[Hawke]

I feel that we should also look on the other side of this issue. For me, it is important for our youth to grow up feeling that they are a citizen of the world, rather than just the citizen of one nation. Trips to other countries should be encouraged and allowed (with the proper supervision and a full accounting of the laws of those countries and how they differ from one's own laws). I believe I'm beginning to see a trend in the United States towards introversion, which is counter to the worldwide trend of increased globalization. We can't allow an "us-versus-them" approach to dominate our interactions with others.

[lady cop]

i agree with you Hawke,however i am addressing a narrow issue here, that of high school trips that are invariably binges. as long as these grads are still dependant on their parents, i want the parents to know what could happen in a so-called tropical paradise. because it's those parents that are going to have to deal with it,rectify it, pay for it.

[Jives]

lady cop wrote: i agree with you Hawke,however i am addressing a narrow issue here, that of high school trips that are invariably binges.


I'll say! I remember one of my high school field trips to Phoenix to see Frank Loyd Wright's Telesin West, an architectural masterpiece, and I was with the "Gifted" class, straight "A" students and supposedly the most dependable in the school. Yeah right! The whole trip was an unbelievable drunken and stoned party.

The teacher was so naive that she had a separate room far from the kids rooms, and went to bed early! After she went to bed we wandered around the red light district and went to a strip club.

Wow! I sure learned a lot on that trip, although nothing like what I was supposed to be learning!:D

[CARLA]

HAWK,

Well stated, and true. I wish it was different, but the fact is AMERICAN'S are not well like in other parts of the world, and don't be foolish and think otherwise. I have traveled all over the world as an adult and I learned on thing, watch your behavior, and your back if your AMERICAN your are watched, we are thought to all be rich to people in other countries and rude. We are not seen in the way you think at all.

Yes I will still travel, I would not travel with young people to certain parts of the world period. I can risk my life, but not the lives of the young people I love.

I feel that we should also look on the other side of this issue. For me, it is important for our youth to grow up feeling that they are a citizen of the world, rather than just the citizen of one nation. Trips to other countries should be encouraged and allowed (with the proper supervision and a full accounting of the laws of those countries and how they differ from one's own laws). I believe I'm beginning to see a trend in the United States towards introversion, which is counter to the worldwide trend of increased globalization. We can't allow an "us-versus-them" approach to dominate our interactions with others.

[spot]

CARLA wrote: Well stated, and true. I wish it was different, but the fact is AMERICAN'S are not well like in other parts of the world, and don't be foolish and think otherwise.That's such a sweeping statement. If you think you can name a dozen countries which are dangerous to American tourists but not to other nationalities then give it a try, but I doubt whether you could support what you say with any facts. Nobody is proposing holidays to Chechnya, and the French are too cultured to say anything critical to their guests.

If you guys turn inward and stay at home, you do it to yourselves, it's not a thing anyone else is doing to you.

The only occasion my daughter said she saw anything like anti-American feeling, this year, was on a bus in Vietnam where the previously un-met Bill told tour guides that their names were too hard to remember "So I'm gonna call you Ho an' Bo, OK?", which evoked winces from every nationality present including, I'm pleased to say, the Vietnamese. By contrast, the Australian veterans she talked with half way up a hill they'd once fought over were well-disposed to everybody.

[CARLA]

Well Spot your entitled to your opinion, as I am mine.

Your not AMERICAN so sir you really can't talk to the subject now can you. As I stated I have traveled all over the world as an AMERICAN AND PROUD TO BE ONE.

I learned two things for sure in my travels. Best not to be a show off AMERICAN any where, and watch your behavior. I can name many places AMERICAN'S are not well liked, but I choose not to.

You travel where ever you wish sir. I will consult with my State Department and not travel to the hot spot they list as "PLACES TO STAY AWAY FROM". It's called being safe, and informed.

[spot]

CARLA wrote: I learned two things for sure in my travels. Best not to be a show off AMERICAN any where, and watch your behavior. I can name many places AMERICAN'S are not well liked, but I choose not toPerhaps we could put this in the context of "Approximately 6,000 Americans die outside of the U.S. each year. The majority of these are long-term residents of a foreign country. ACS assists with the return of remains for approximately 2,000 Americans annually." ( http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/stat ... izens.html )

If you set that against other causes of death, I think it suggests that most American tourists come back from abroad in one piece.

[koan]

My younger brother went to the Dominican Republic with his fellow grads. They paid for it themselves. Not only did he have a great time it was his first taste of independence. If my parents had refused to let him go it would have changed who he is. One girl got severely sunburnt. That was the worst of the "casualties". Just because it happens that some people get murdered or jailed, should the rest of us lose our sense of freedom? Do we want our children to grow up in fear of the world? Common sense has to be learned.

[lady cop]

happily, my son's experience in cancun was problem-free as well, although he NEVER let me view the video. ... once again, my only point here was not to curtail young persons' experience in the world, it's this one issue...high school grads intent on a wild party could find themselves in very deep doo-doo in certain venues, which may be most difficult for parents to deal with....i don't see why they can't party in the states where parents have a shot at extricating them. it's an individual choice of course, but many parents may not realize that they could be looking at a legal nightmare if their child is arrested on some trumped-up drinking in public charge.

[spot]

lady cop wrote: i don't see why they can't party in the states where parents have a shot at extricating them.Lady, I did ask earlier, but nobody either answered or thought it seemed a relevant question. Is the age at which children were allowed to first taste alcohol in the US 21? If it is, then that seems to answer the question of why the trips are run abroad, surely. Are you suggesting that US law enforcers turn a blind eye to age restrictions for the consumption of alcohol?

[lady cop]

spot wrote: Lady, I did ask earlier, but nobody either answered or thought it seemed a relevant question. Is the age at which children were allowed to first taste alcohol in the US 21? If it is, then that seems to answer the question of why the trips are run abroad, surely. Are you suggesting that US law enforcers turn a blind eye to age restrictions for the consumption of alcohol?in general, the legal drinking age is 21. and my dept. certainly enforces it, we are a big tourist/spring break area. we take kids' deaths from DUI and falling off hotel balconies very seriously. the trips are not related to drinking age, the travel agencies solicit US high schools every spring. they promise fun in paradise. at cheap rates. most people don't look beyond the adverts.

[koan]

Of course they advertise. Spring break. Kids have the most disposable income. How can it be held against them? Of course they are not liable for anything beyond the success of the flight or the availability of the accomodations. How could they be? They aren't responsible for my behaviour when I travel either. This forum isn't responsible for what I write. It's standard business practice to limit liability.

[spot]

lady cop wrote: the trips are not related to drinking ageI must have been confused by your early post then, Lady. "these grad trips involve a lot of drinking and it's usually a wild time"... "the grad trips are all about the party, not an educational experience. that's a different thing entirely."

If that's still the case, and you enforce the law locally, then the drinking age is the key to why the children risk themselves by travelling to foreign jurisdictions where they risk different local laws and customs.

[koan]

This thread, to me, is about teaching your kids to grow up in fear. Teach them to be aware.

Telling them they can't do something makes them want it more.

[koan]

ok.

[spot]

I expect they're actually more at risk partying in the States than they are partying abroad, and that the case you started out with is a staggeringly unusual event. But, of course, I don't live there, so I may easily be mistaken.

[CARLA]

I disagree, It is advice to parents of High School Grads to read the fine print, and be aware of the customs and the laws of the country their children may be traveling to. Fear has nothing to do with it, commonsense is the key here for a safe fun wonderful experience abroad. :-5

They did a piece on this today on local news, seem the companies that book these trip stand outside the school with flyers and hand them to the kids. They offer a free trip to anyone who gets so many to book etc.. Not the safest way to book a Grad Trip... :-5

This thread, to me, is about teaching your kids to grow up in fear. Teach them to be aware.

Telling them they can't do something makes them want it more.

[spot]

CARLA wrote: Fear has nothing to do with it, commonsense is the key here for a safe fun wonderful experience abroad.Then where does what you started with come from, Carla? "everytime they travel out of the country they are provided guards, and travel as a group in a bus with police escorts always. They aren't allowed out on their own ever period. They have to stay with the group always. They take no chances with them ever. They aren't allowed to go to clubs, or bars." Where's the lack of fear in that? Where's the common sense?

[lady cop]

*sigh*...all i wanted to do was spare some parents some grief.

[koan]

CARLA wrote: They did a piece on this today on local news, seem the companies that book these trip stand outside the school with flyers and hand them to the kids. They offer a free trip to anyone who gets so many to book etc.. Not the safest way to book a Grad Trip


So they know how to reach their market. Is it safer to book a trip that's not on sale? I really don't know what you are getting at other than fear to travel around the world. Maybe they should not be allowed to advertise? Maybe not on school property...but they could stand on the street corner and sell the vacations as a part of free speech and free marketing...of which the US is quite proud.

[koan]

lady cop wrote: *sigh*...all i wanted to do was spare some parents some grief.


Many children die. It is always sad. If we could save that grief, great! But we can't. Death is unpredictable. So...do we live in fear of it?

[spot]

I might point out that the national website for the Dutch dependency, Aruba ( http://www.aruba.com/ ) actually carries the latest news of Natalee Holloway's disappearance, which is an indication of how rare an event this is there. Given that they live on tourism, I think they have a natural interest in protecting all their visitors to the best of their ability, and that they do a very good job of it.

[CARLA]

These are the best of the best in the US Womens Soccer world, they have no choice in how they travel. It is sanctioned by FIFA the US and WORLD SOCCER FEDERATIONS All foreign team are guarded this way always, just the way it is.

Then where does what you started with come from, Carla? "everytime they travel out of the country they are provided guards, and travel as a group in a bus with police escorts always. They aren't allowed out on their own ever period. They have to stay with the group always. They take no chances with them ever. They aren't allowed to go to clubs, or bars." Where's the lack of fear in that? Where's the common sense?

[spot]

CARLA wrote: These are the best of the best in the US Womens Soccer world, they have no choice in how they travel. It is sanctioned by FIFA the US and WORLD SOCCER FEDERATIONS All foreign team are guarded this way always, just the way it is.Then why on earth did you bring it up as relevant to a discussion of the dangers of holidaying abroad? Your same message has "grad trips out of the country these days is just to dangerous" and "once they are out of the US and under age it can be dangerous" - it's you that made the link between danger and the treatment of the Soccer team, Carla, not me.

[CARLA]

I give up.. you win.. :-5 I may have lumped the issues together your correct.

The team is one thing, yes there is an element of danger in their travel that is why all the saftey is taken. :-2

The High School Grad traveling abroad can be dangerous, and has been dangerous.. Read that anyway you want Spot.. That's my take on it.

[spot]

CARLA wrote: The High School Grad traveling abroad can be dangerous, and has been dangerous.. Read that anyway you want Spot.. That's my take on it. Nobody's disputed that. I've suggested that it's no more dangerous than domestic High School Grad trips, and I've suggested that because your domestic drinking laws are enforced, the whole idea of a domestic High School Grad trip is fairly pointless if, as Lady Cop says, "the grad trips are all about the party". If you want safer High School Grad trips, perhaps you need to legally accustom your children to the sensible use of alcohol, but I have no idea how your laws would allow you to do that.

[nvalleyvee]

I went on 3 spring breaKs with my graduating class in high school. We had a great time each and every time stating from sophomore year.

[robinseggs]

spot wrote: Perhaps it depends on the child, Lady? My 18 year old daughter got back last month from back-packing as a couple of girls before university. The two of them spent months going round Madagascar, Vietnam and Cambodia. She says, and I agree with her, that you have to take opportunities as they come up. She feels she was safe, I feel she was safe. Neither of us feel that there's such a thing as absolute safety, it's all relative.

Why do you feel that foreign tourist travel is more dangerous than domestic tourist travel, for an 18 year old girl? I suspect accurate figures would show the reverse.


Are you nuts? You have got to be kidding me...why can't you see Lady Cop's point? Your daughter is 18. You are her parent! Do you actually believe she is old enough to make the decisions of an adult? And what about in a situation that has become very dangerous? Does not sound like she had a chaperone on her trip. Two young girls hiking alone in Madagascar...Cambodia...hmmm how did you sleep at night? You are right in thinking there is no such thing as absolute safety, true, but there are odds you can stack against yourself. Sounds as if you don't mind taking the risk but maybe because you can't tell your daughter "NO"????

[spot]

robinseggs wrote: Are you nuts? You have got to be kidding me...why can't you see Lady Cop's point? Your daughter is 18. You are her parent! Do you actually believe she is old enough to make the decisions of an adult? And what about in a situation that has become very dangerous? Does not sound like she had a chaperone on her trip. Two young girls hiking alone in Madagascar...Cambodia...hmmm how did you sleep at night? You are right in thinking there is no such thing as absolute safety, true, but there are odds you can stack against yourself. Sounds as if you don't mind taking the risk but maybe because you can't tell your daughter "NO"????Well, thank you for that great vote of confidence, robinseggs. I think I've made an exceptionally fine job of bringing my daughter up, thank you. There are indeed odds I can stack up, and I did just that. Perhaps, rather than be thought inept, I should tell you about them, since they reflect rather poorly on the "keep children in cotton wool" mentality you put forward.

OK, some statistics first. Let's talk about reality, and then consider whether my daughter took an unreasonable risk in travelling with a schoolfriend "unchaperoned".

The gap year abroad between school and university has become a rite of passage for tens of thousands of British young people each year. 25,000 teenagers from the UK to take gap years, travelling abroad, every year. Besides these, each year, more than 200,000 British people aged between 18 and 24 take a break from studying to travel abroad.

Taking 2000-2001 figures, the most recent I can find fully collated, all UK travellers made a total of 56 million trips abroad in 2000, and there were 1,800 deaths, most of them from natural causes. A total of 183 people died in road accidents, 54 committed suicide and 43 were murdered. Of these, some were on their gap year. You can work out the proportion from the first paragraph.

If you think I've missed anything in the list at the end of this post, do please let me know, but I'm not bad at gathering data and I think I've got this right. If you want me to post a supplement with names and details, I will, but not without someone asking first.

In summary, in the last five years, from 125,000 gap year travellers, excluding traffic accidents, I can find thirteen murdered (seven in one incident) and thirteen accidental deaths.

Now, perhaps you'd like to compare this "rite of passage" with the grad parties that another thread recently discussed as a US alternative to gap year travel. I can guarantee, for example, that neither my daughter nor the girl she travelled with spent so much as a single evening drunk while on their journey. They are both trustworthy and responsible, they went out and they brought themselves back, and I'm quite pleased with them.



Here's a dated list summary. Over the last five years, this is as complete a list as I can make of ALL UK gap-year related deaths:

March 05, 2005 20-year-old daughter killed in a car crash in Brazil.

February 16, 2005 Two gap-year students working on a conservation project in Mexico died in a coach crash.

October 29, 2004, Two former pupils died accidentally within hours of each other while on gap year breaks.

October 25, 2004, A teenager due to start his studies at Newcastle University fell 14 floors to his death down a lift shaft during a trip to South America.

October, 2004, Student vanished after jetting off to Bangkok in Thailand, possibly died in the tsunami.

July 13, 2004, 21-year-old died at home of cerebral malaria contracted on a gap year trip to Australia and Thailand.

May 2, 2004, Gap year student killed in a road crash in South Africa.

March 31, 2004 19-year-old girl died when she fell from her kayak and was trapped under a rock in swollen waters in New Zealand.

December 11, 2003, A British gap-year student told yesterday how she held her Israeli boyfriend in her arms as he bled to death after his throat was slashed on a ferry in the Bay of Bengal.

October 23, 2003, 18-year-old pupil died in a freak kayaking accident in Laos.

April 21, 2003 British gap year student killed in a bus crash in Argentina.

February, 2003, Irish girl attacked from behind in Hampston, south west London, after a night out with friends last February.

October 16, 2002, Bali bomb explosion: two UK gap year girls died.

September 23, 2002 Jewish teenager from Glasgow died after a suicide bomb attack on a Tel Aviv bus.

July 17, 2002, A 20 year old gap-year student drowned in South Africa.

May 15, 2002 Amateur rugby player died in a car crash on a gap year holiday in Australia.

April 27, 2002, An ecology student died in a diving accident off Fiji.

March 13, 2002, A gap year student killed by a crocodile in an African lake.

March 13, 2002 A student died after becoming seasick on a fishing expedition on a gap year trip in Australia.

February 20, 2002, A British teenager on his gap year in Australia died after diving into a flooded creek and hitting his head on submerged rocks.



April, 2002, a gap-year backpacker from York pushed off a bridge in Queensland Australia.

March 19, 2001, A pick-up truck crashed in Malawi killing three British teenagers on a gap year trip.

January 15, 2001, teenage daughter died two weeks after receiving a huge electric shock while travelling in Ecuador during her gap year.

August 11, 2000, murder of British backpacker in Chiang Mai, Thailand, by a policeman.

July, 2000, Arson at a hostel in Childers, Australia killed 15 travellers, seven of them British.

April 4, 2000, A backpacker died when he was struck by a car in Switzerland driven by a motorist who was allegedly drunk and using a mobile phone.