Nostradamus

Tater Tazz · Post by **Tater Tazz** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:38 am

Watched a very interesting tv program yesterday on him. Do you think Nostradamus was fake or prophet?

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:50 am

Is there any question about it? Surely it's completely obvious that everything he wrote was his own direct immediate comment on an accurate interpretation of the future that was in front of him as he was writing. It's what he said it was. He said that he found these revelations in earlier prophecies and that he recognized that they were true. That's why he described himself as a publisher of prophecies, not of himself being a prophet or himself having visions. He's just passing on true prophecies that he's recognised as being true prophecies, which he's found in older sources.

That they were actually the truth is what people discovered when things happened afterwards exactly as he described them. Where does doubt come into it as to whether Nostradamus published accurate prophecies? Of course he did.

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:12 am

what did he have to say about the year 2012?

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:29 am

spot;768398 wrote: Is there any question about it? Surely it's completely obvious that everything he wrote was his own direct immediate comment on an accurate interpretation of the future that was in front of him as he was writing. It's what he said it was. He said that he found these revelations in earlier prophecies and that he recognized that they were true. That's why he described himself as a publisher of prophecies, not of himself being a prophet or himself having visions. He's just passing on true prophecies that he's recognised as being true prophecies, which he's found in older sources.

That they were actually the truth is what people discovered when things happened afterwards exactly as he described them. Where does doubt come into it as to whether Nostradamus published accurate prophecies? Of course he did.

Yes, there's a lot of question about it. I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not

Most prophecies if examined closely contain a mix of techniques in language to give the appearance of fulfillment after the fact. It's essentially a magic trick with language. If you give me a prophecy, I can probably give some observations on the language that is used ... and probably explain why it's not as impressive as you might think initially.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:43 am

What you say about predictions in general is undoubtedly true and capable of demonstration.

In the case of Nostradamus though, to take two simple examples, it's blatantly obvious that the quatrains are exactly crafted to the sort of extent that could never reasonably happen by mere chance. I quote a bit, trimming to easier readability as I go, from http://www.echeat.com/essay.php?t=26113The young Lion shall overcome the old one,

In a field by a single duel:

In a golden cage he shall put out his eye,

Two blows from one then he shall die a cruel death.

During a three-day festival, beginning on the 28th of June 1559, King Henri II participated in the final duel of his life. King Henri II rode against his captain of the Stoic guard, Count Montgomery. During the match Montgomery's wooden lance shattered, causing a sharp splinter to pierce the King's golden visor. The small piece penetrated deep into the King's brain through the left eye. After ten days of blind misery the gangrene infection put him out of misery. Since both men brandished the symbol of the lion, it is believed that the use of the "old lion" is a reference to King Henri II while the "young lion" can be matched up with the much younger Montgomery. On the third line Nostradamus speaks of a golden cage. Wilson perceives this as a reference to the King's gold embossed helmet. In the last line Nostradamus writes about two hits in one, which is exactly what had happened. The first hit was against the breastplate, which caused the lance to shatter, causing a second hit from the splintered piece. In the last line Nostradamus writes, "he shall die a cruel death". This last line is believed to be speaking of the ten days of agony until King Henri II finally dies on July tenth.

Another incident within his lifetime was the murder of King Henri III. Both his murder and his murderer are described in Century 1 quatrain 97, which is translated:

That which fire and sword could not accomplish

Will be managed by a sweet speaking tongue in council:

The king will be made to contemplate the dream seen while sleeping,

He will see the enemy not in war or military blood.

King Henri III met his demise on August 1 1589 while staying at Saint Cloud. The first, second and third lines are a reference to how the King was killed, it speaks of how the tools of war and soldiers could not kill the king. Instead the King shall be killed in a private council. King Henri III was killed in a private meeting with Jacques Clement. Cheetham notes Nostradamus' use of double or hidden meanings. The sweet tongue may refer to the fact in which Clement was able to get the king to move closer, as if Clement had to speak to him confidentially. It may also refer to the fact that Clement is another word for sweet. The third line may be the most fascinating of all. It contains a rare double precognition of the king foreseeing his death in a dream. On July 30 1589, King Henri II discussed a dream with a multitude of friends. In the King's dream the royal garments, crown and scepter are being trampled by a monk-led mob.I'm sorry to take that much space but my intention is to bring enough evidence here that Nostradamus' words in these two quatrains are far far too specific to be anything other than predictive of those two events that they were subsequently identified with. Would you like to disagree with that observation?

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:05 am

jimbo;768539 wrote: i think his predictions were more vague than even your posts are spot old buddy ,its possible to make them fit anything from the twin towers to hitler i'm sure there is one someone somewhere that has twisted one to predict the second coming of the bald moron on fg :wah::wah::wah:

not a lot of people know how he got his name though

one of yzgi's ancestors asked him if he had any predictions about hay

and he said ......... no straw dumbass and it kinda stuck :wah::wah

Jimbo mate.............Dont ever change mate...not a single bit...im crying real tears of laughter her...comedy genius:wah::wah:

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:06 am

jimbo;768539 wrote: i think his predictions were more vague than even your posts are spot old buddy ,its possible to make them fit anything from the twin towers to hitler i'm sure there is one someone somewhere that has twisted one to predict the second coming of the bald moron on fg :wah::wah::wah:You don't need to look at lots of quatrains to make a comment. Just those two I posted and the circumstances they refer to show a real link, they're totally detailed and accurate. if those to are then the true prophesy is proven already, you needn't look at anything else at all. You already know he could do it before the hard work gets in the way or the hard-to-interpret ones muddy the water. Could he or couldn't he? Yes, those two examples show he could even if he never wrote anything else.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:09 am

Jester;768542 wrote: Thats a leap in my opinion...By all means argue that each of those was non-specific. The relatives of the dead men thought they were exact at the time. As for how many kings were murdered in private I think it was three in as many centuries, and Nostradamus even names the killer and details associated events.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:16 am

jimbo;768550 wrote: i mean i'm not no straw dumbass but i could of predicted you would use a word that i never even knew existed

muddy???

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:19 am

Jester;768553 wrote: Don't worry there are things I believe that no one lese does either!:-3I'm not going anywhere near saying what I believe, I'm setting the thread up for the "so what" punch in about three posts from now.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:32 am

Jester;768557 wrote: #1...

ok two more... sorry spot but now as usual, I'm confused. :-3

The so what punch is that nobody, ever, has looked at any of the predictions before it came true and said "this means X is going to happen to Mister Y, or country Z, at roughly that date" in advance of something happening. Not even the two verses I described in detail. Most especially, Nostradamus didn't know what was going to happen to either of the kings beforehand, and nobody accused him afterwards of having known beforehand. All Nostradamus claimed was that he could look at a prophecy and know whether it was a true prophecy or not - he never claimed to know what it meant. He compiled books of true prophecies and published them.

What good is a true prophecy if nobody can look at it and say accurately what it's foretelling? Nobody has ever looked at any of them and predicted accurately in advance what it meant. All anyone's ever done is looked back in history and said what event fulfilled which prophecy. That's as useful as drinking seawater.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:42 am

jimbo;768539 wrote: i think his predictions were more vague than even your posts are spot old buddy ,its possible to make them fit anything from the twin towers to hitler i'm sure there is one someone somewhere that has twisted one to predict the second coming of the bald moron on fg :wah::wah:

not a lot of people know how he got his name though

one of yzgi's ancestors asked him if he had any predictions about hay

and he said ......... no straw dumbass and it kinda stuck :wah::wah:
:wah:

Hey he was a reletive of mine. Here's one he forgot to write.

In a land far away

On a Spot in the waters

A man of reknown

Will **** off the Focer's

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:46 am

sunny104;768481 wrote: what did he have to say about the year 2012?

*cough*

nobody knows if he wrote anything that coincided with the Mayan calendar??

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:46 am

Jester;768570 wrote: Ok I can roll with that...

Next question then. How many of Nas's determinations of prophetical truth have not come true yet?

Who can even guess? They're pretty obscure sayings and I'm no expert.

What we have, though, is:

Nostradamus claiming that they're true prophecies

Two of them obviously being true prophecies on account of their multi-layered detail and the rarity of the event they describe

Give Nostradamus the best benefit of the doubt and say fair enough, he got those two right, they might all be right for all I can tell, let's assume they all are

None of them have ever been turned from being a prophecy into being a future prediction with a place and a time and an event which then turned out, after the prediction, to happen. Do check, do find an example, I don't think one exists. Lots of people have looked for one, nobody's described finding one that I can see.

So why should anyone assume that a prediction made now with a place and a time and an event in the future will turn out to happen, given that nobody's ever succeeded in doing that in the whole of history since the prophecies were made? It doesn't mean the prophecies are false, it just means they're useless for telling the future.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:49 am

sunny104;768589 wrote: *cough*

nobody knows if he wrote anything that coincided with the Mayan calendar??

How would you tell?

There's a way to find out in 5 years. Write down now all the predictions about 2012 made by interpreting a Nostradamus prophecy, and count how many of them happen before 2013. If you get one that's right it's made history.

If, in 2013, you look back over the previous 5 years history and say hot damn, Nostradamus told us about that in this verse, then yay you unravelled another of his prophecies. But you didn't use it to predict the future.

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:54 am

spot;768597 wrote: How would you tell?

There's a way to find out in 5 years. Write down now all the predictions about 2012 made by interpreting a Nostradamus prophecy, and count how many of them happen before 2013. If you get one that's right it's made history.

If, in 2013, you look back over the previous 5 years history and say hot damn, Nostradamus told us about that in this verse, then yay you unravelled another of his prophecies. But you didn't use it to predict the future.

I was curious if he had in his writings also spoke of an end of time or a big change and that made me wonder if there was something that coincided with what the Mayans believed which would be really spooky...

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:56 am

sunny104;768606 wrote: I was curious if he had in his writings also spoke of an end of time or a big change and that made me wonder if there was something that coincided with what the Mayans believed which would be really spooky...

Now would be a good time to read the prophecies, find the ones you think apply to 2012, write down what you think they predict and post them here with your interpretations. If you're right, you'll become famous.

What the Mayans believed? That their calendar tripped from one age to the next in 2012 (the celestial event whose date they were estimating actually happened in 1998). It's like going from December 31st to January 1st and getting into a new year. Did they think there would be events as well? Were they at all descriptive about what the events would be?

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:59 am

spot;768608 wrote: Now would be a good time to read the prophecies, find the ones you think apply to 2012, write down what you think they predict and post them here with your interpretations. If you're right, you'll become famous.

all of them??

just kidding!

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:00 am

sunny104;768610 wrote: all of them??

just kidding!

You can ignore the two about the kings, they already happened.

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:01 am

spot;768608 wrote: Now would be a good time to read the prophecies, find the ones you think apply to 2012, write down what you think they predict and post them here with your interpretations. If you're right, you'll become famous.

What the Mayans believed? That their calendar tripped from one age to the next in 2012 (the celestial event whose date they were estimating actually happened in 1998). It's like going from December 31st to January 1st and getting into a new year. Did they think there would be events as well? Were they at all descriptive about what the events would be?

but their calendar actually ends there (dec. 2012), that's what makes it so interesting.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:01 am

Well, here's a couple observations on the first prediction:

The young Lion shall overcome the old one, (Who? animals?)

In a field by a single duel: (a fight ... When? Where?)

In a golden cage he shall put out his eye, (sounds like the lions are both in a cage ... the eye wound is not mortal)

Two blows from one then he shall die a cruel death. (this sounds like he hits him two additional times ... with his big furry paws

)

Also note the open ended-ness of the prediction... I could just throw something out there ... if it sticks to something I count it as a hit, otherwise ignore it as "yet to happen" The language is spongy enough to allow the old carpenters trick of forcing it in place were it won't fit perfectly.

I'm sure there's been a lot of old people getting their eyes poked out, and who died from infection. Note the re-interpretation the non-fitting bits of information ... like "cage" doesn't actually mean cage but "helmet" Maybe it means a nursing home ... and the two people are watching lions on TV. You know, people in their golden years ... a golden cage.

The second prediction I think has the same problems... the language is not clear enough to actually predict something before it happens ... otherwise people involved might have taken steps to avoid the prediction coming true.

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:02 am

spot;768612 wrote: You can ignore the two about the kings, they already happened.

thanks.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:04 am

sunny104;768613 wrote: but their calendar actually ends there (dec. 2012), that's what makes it so interesting.

Umm. My 2007 calendar ended on December 31st 2007, yes. It doesn't mean there isn't a 2008 seamlessly attached.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:09 am

spot;768617 wrote: Umm. My 2007 calendar ended on December 31st 2007, yes. It doesn't mean there isn't a 2008 seamlessly attached.

Finally my worries are quelled

For the end of the world in 2012

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:17 am

spot;768617 wrote: Umm. My 2007 calendar ended on December 31st 2007, yes. It doesn't mean there isn't a 2008 seamlessly attached.

LOL! I love you! *smooch*

well it seems were safe anyway, Nostradamus predicted things up until 3797!

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:20 am

Nostradamus's quatrains are vague at best. Some are touted to refer to catastrophic events but that's only because people have gone back after said catastrophic event and then tied it to some specific quatrains.

The mayan calendar ends on Dec. 21st, 2012. It had to end at some point. It lasted a lot longer than the mayan people did.

When I was a child i was told the world was going to end in 1984. It didn't.

The world was supposed to end in the year 2000 when the Y2K bug hit, or when the calendar rolled over. It didn't (and a lot of annoying and major inconviences were also avoided due to the HARD work of a lot of computer programmers).

My Mum says that when she was a teen-ager there were people saying the end of the world was coming soon. It didn't.

So, what do I believe about 2012, Nostradamus, and the Mayan Calendar? Nothing.

2012 is just another year. Nostradamus and the Mayans are dead.

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:21 am

Jester;768628 wrote: AD or BC?:-3

:yh_hypno

oh!

um, AD!

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:27 am

Chezzie;768629 wrote: My Mum says that when she was a teen-ager there were people saying the end of the world was coming soon. It didn't. John Wesley wrote timetables of the end of the world back in the 18th century, I remember reading them. People get enthusiastic when they get too close to a problem.

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:29 am

spot;768634 wrote: John Wesley wrote timetables of the end of the world back in the 18th century, I remember reading them. People get enthusiastic when they get too close to a problem.

Thats just great but my mum wasnt born in the 18th century

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:32 am

the Mayan thing is supposed to be more about a change rather than an end. :-6

I find all the knowledge they had about things fascinating.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:33 am

Chezzie;768636 wrote: Thats just great but my mum wasnt born in the 18th century

You're so silly Chezz. They stayed in print until 1820 or so, people were still reading them then.

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:37 am

spot;768634 wrote: John Wesley wrote timetables of the end of the world back in the 18th century, I remember reading them. People get enthusiastic when they get too close to a problem.

Chezzie;768636 wrote: Thats just great but my mum wasnt born in the 18th century

spot;768639 wrote: You're so silly Chezz. They stayed in print until 1820 or so, people were still reading them then.

ahhh see thats what happens when you interpret text differently to how it was intended cos you said John Wesley wrote timetables of the end of the world back in the 18th century,I remember reading them So I thought you meant you had personally read them.

So I was just letting you know that my mum isnt as old as you lol.....:wah::wah::wah:

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:45 am

sunny104;768638 wrote: the Mayan thing is supposed to be more about a change rather than an end. :-6

I find all the knowledge they had about things fascinating.

The Mayans ... so much long-term foresight ... yet so little short-term foresight. The Irony! Most cultures it's the opposite.

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:46 am

Chezzie;768640 wrote: So I thought you meant you had personally read them.

So I was just letting you know that my mum isnt as old as you lol.....:wah::wah::wah:Great mates, me and John Wesley were. We used to compete at who had the least visible sense of humour. I finally lost after I unbuckled his horse's saddle straps one day.

Your mum didn't live down Stepney Green back then did she? Sally something?

hoxtonchris · Post by **hoxtonchris** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:54 am

YZGI;768618 wrote: Finally my worries are quelled

For the end of the world in 2012 yep our world will come to an end in 2012 ,,,,,if we dont get a goodly return of gold at the olympics!!!!

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:55 am

Jester;768654 wrote: Now thats funny! :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

It's risky - it gets very unfunny if Chezz's mum really does live down Stepney Green and she's called Sally. I'll be in such deep hot water if she does.

Chezzie · Post by **Chezzie** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:09 pm

luckily for you spotster her names Carole and didnt live down THAT lane, she did marry two Johns (seperate occasions, one being my father) however and lived on Lane end though

Thank god I re-read what I just wrote cos Im sure I just made my mother a prostitute who married two of her clients lol..Arghhhhh she will never forgive me...she met her husbands after that period :wah::wah::wah::wah:

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:08 pm

I don't think its physically possible for a human being to predict the future, so I don't believe in Nostradamus or any other prophet. Though he certainly wrote things that could be interpreted as having coming true, like the specific ones that Spot mentioned (which are the ones that made his reputation) and there are some others, but thats not proof of anything definite. Any of the books I read on Nostradamus always alluded to their being problems with the middle east and erm, well maybe he was onto something.

Though he did mention something about a great king of terror coming out of the sky in 1999, and that was actually 2001, so he was well out there.

But, no I don't actually anyone can predict the future, but like all these supernatural things, there is always one or two intriguing aspects to it.

Oh bugger it, you have me thinking about bloody Nostradamus now, argghhh!

Post by **spot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:11 pm

He was Irish, did you know that? Born and bred in County Sligo.