Clint wrote: I don’t see what the issue is with the USS Liberty. Most of the people who continuously make issue of it are just fine with our alliances with countries we have been to war with. To them, the 50,000 US lives lost in Vietnam have no consequence now. We should forgive and forget, trade and be friends. I don’t disagree with being friends with those we have been enemies with. I just don’t like the double standard when it comes to Israel over one ship nearly 40 years ago.
I also fail to see the connection to this tread.
Everything is connected in one way or another. The Liberty incident is another example of the duality of the modern age. Best friend one day, worst person on Earth the next, back to best buddy and so on. The Dorito snogging former Mesopotamian despot is a prime example.
No WMD...so what?
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BuckTurgidson
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:19 pm
No WMD...so what?
Clint wrote: I don’t disagree with being friends with those we have been enemies with.You can say that in the context of Vietnam? This is a minor aside, I'm more than happy merely to comment on it and then leave it be, but I am gobsmacked by the arrogance of your condescension. Whose country was this war fought in, exactly? You don't disagree with being friends with the Vietnamese? In the face of the generosity of heart on the part of the surviving Vietnamese, that they are prepared to forgive what you did to them, you could try to be a bit more gracious about it.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
No WMD...so what?
Far Rider wrote: Are you just trying to tick me off now Spot?A small pot of sauce for your goose, that's all. A lesson in good manners.
supplemental note: I just saw that there's a wild difference in meaning between tick off in England compared with America. In England, to tick someone off is to tell them off, to verbally chastize them. In America, it's to annoy them. No, I wasn't trying to annoy you, Far Rider.
Extended additional detail:
To reprimand or scold. Cf. to tell off (orig. British Mil. slang).
eg: 1915 W. OWEN Letter "He has been ‘ticked-off’ four or five times for it; but is not yet shot at dawn"
To annoy, anger; to dispirit. - U.S. slang.
eg: 1975 Washington Post 19 Feb. "We got hit somethin' fierce. It really ticked me off! We lost everything!"
supplemental note: I just saw that there's a wild difference in meaning between tick off in England compared with America. In England, to tick someone off is to tell them off, to verbally chastize them. In America, it's to annoy them. No, I wasn't trying to annoy you, Far Rider.
Extended additional detail:
To reprimand or scold. Cf. to tell off (orig. British Mil. slang).
eg: 1915 W. OWEN Letter "He has been ‘ticked-off’ four or five times for it; but is not yet shot at dawn"
To annoy, anger; to dispirit. - U.S. slang.
eg: 1975 Washington Post 19 Feb. "We got hit somethin' fierce. It really ticked me off! We lost everything!"
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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BuckTurgidson
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:19 pm
No WMD...so what?
Far Rider wrote: Fine it happened. And yes it is very suspicious. Im asking what the point is to this thread? I'm asking for clarification only, not contesting the story.
I'd like to know what you find suspicious about it.
I'd like to know what you find suspicious about it.
No WMD...so what?
far rider, no offence intended but the correct spelling is israel not "isreal"
sorry, it's just doing my head in reading isreal all the time. lol
cheers Jika.
sorry, it's just doing my head in reading isreal all the time. lol
cheers Jika.
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anastrophe
- Posts: 3135
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:00 pm
No WMD...so what?
spot wrote: "and have counting rules that undercount bomber-carried weapons"? Wow, they built a fudge factor into the Treaty? Go on, ask me if I trust politicians! One day I might try reading it again, but there's only so many hours in a lifetime.
that wasn't the ambiguity i was taking note of, but it's not terribly important.
Let me try. I'm glad the counts are down from the 30,000+ that were out there at one point.as am i. one of the sites noted that the US has dismantled some 11,000 nukes since 1991. that alone is a staggering proposition - nearly as staggering as the numbers that were deployed. not that the current numbers aren't staggering as well.
it would be quite lovely if every last one were dismantled, and not another ever built. once the numbers get down below 500 or so between the US and russia, getting to zero will be a far more difficult matter, requiring the cooperation and goodwill of china, north korea, india, pakistan, israel, france, the UK, and by then probably iran. that will be when things get particularly dicey. M.A.D., mad as it was, would appear to have worked in hindsight, else we'd probably not be chatting so amiably here. it won't be quite so unambiguous when there are that many players at the M.A.D. table.
I'm perturbed that the ex-Soviet territories have so many book-keeping errors between what are now autonomous regions. I do think there are missing nukes in good working order out there. I do think there are lots of nasty people on the planet who would pay top dollar, for a smell of even one of those floating hundreds, in their arsenal.
i suppose i take a certain small satisfaction in knowing that no such rogue nuke will have come from the U.S..
Finally, whether the US has twice as many on one-month notice as Russia or Russia has twice as many on one-month notice as the US, I don't imagine either of those two nations is going to let even one off in the vicinity of the other nation. The genie is out of the bottle, though. You want a totally uninformed guess where one will go off first? Somewhere within hearing distance of the Temple Mount, that's my guess. I've got friends there, too. I visit sometimes.
yes, but will it be an israeli nuke, an iranian nuke, or an iraqi nuke? oh - well, it won't be the latter, we can be sure of that.
I do think maintaining these rogue devices is something only a State can achieve, though. I can't see even a full university department having the resources. So, for what it's worth, state-sponsored terrorism is still the key to the problem, not private armies.
a tactically deployable nuke of 'conventional' design isn't likely but a 'dirty bomb' most certainly is. any boob with some C4 and some weapons-grade fissionable material could do extraordinary damage, albeit mostly not of an immediate kind of damage.
that wasn't the ambiguity i was taking note of, but it's not terribly important.
Let me try. I'm glad the counts are down from the 30,000+ that were out there at one point.as am i. one of the sites noted that the US has dismantled some 11,000 nukes since 1991. that alone is a staggering proposition - nearly as staggering as the numbers that were deployed. not that the current numbers aren't staggering as well.
it would be quite lovely if every last one were dismantled, and not another ever built. once the numbers get down below 500 or so between the US and russia, getting to zero will be a far more difficult matter, requiring the cooperation and goodwill of china, north korea, india, pakistan, israel, france, the UK, and by then probably iran. that will be when things get particularly dicey. M.A.D., mad as it was, would appear to have worked in hindsight, else we'd probably not be chatting so amiably here. it won't be quite so unambiguous when there are that many players at the M.A.D. table.
I'm perturbed that the ex-Soviet territories have so many book-keeping errors between what are now autonomous regions. I do think there are missing nukes in good working order out there. I do think there are lots of nasty people on the planet who would pay top dollar, for a smell of even one of those floating hundreds, in their arsenal.
i suppose i take a certain small satisfaction in knowing that no such rogue nuke will have come from the U.S..
Finally, whether the US has twice as many on one-month notice as Russia or Russia has twice as many on one-month notice as the US, I don't imagine either of those two nations is going to let even one off in the vicinity of the other nation. The genie is out of the bottle, though. You want a totally uninformed guess where one will go off first? Somewhere within hearing distance of the Temple Mount, that's my guess. I've got friends there, too. I visit sometimes.
yes, but will it be an israeli nuke, an iranian nuke, or an iraqi nuke? oh - well, it won't be the latter, we can be sure of that.
I do think maintaining these rogue devices is something only a State can achieve, though. I can't see even a full university department having the resources. So, for what it's worth, state-sponsored terrorism is still the key to the problem, not private armies.
a tactically deployable nuke of 'conventional' design isn't likely but a 'dirty bomb' most certainly is. any boob with some C4 and some weapons-grade fissionable material could do extraordinary damage, albeit mostly not of an immediate kind of damage.
[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][/FONT]
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BuckTurgidson
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:19 pm
No WMD...so what?
Far Rider wrote: Well I knew this older soldeir when I first got in the service and he told me of an incident back in 67 of a US ship that was 'shot out of the water', I don't remember that it was Isreal that attacked it, somehow that part of it eludes me, but as I read about this attack it, brought up similarities to the one he mentioned. I need to do more research to be sure. So right now I can't say.
I will say for now its the 'why' Isreal attacked it that bugs me.
Indeed, why? From what I know about the incident, the crewmembers of the Liberty testified that they were flying colors and that the IDF fighter-bombers that attacked passed over their ship a couple times before opening fire. So I dont buy any 'misidentification' explanation. Secondly, if I recall correctly, Israeli naval ships (PTs or the like) were in the area as well and although I'm not a 100 percent on it, the ships attacked the Liberty as well, or at least made it look like they were going to. Kinda befuddling, eh? :yh_think
I will say for now its the 'why' Isreal attacked it that bugs me.
Indeed, why? From what I know about the incident, the crewmembers of the Liberty testified that they were flying colors and that the IDF fighter-bombers that attacked passed over their ship a couple times before opening fire. So I dont buy any 'misidentification' explanation. Secondly, if I recall correctly, Israeli naval ships (PTs or the like) were in the area as well and although I'm not a 100 percent on it, the ships attacked the Liberty as well, or at least made it look like they were going to. Kinda befuddling, eh? :yh_think
No WMD...so what?
Far Rider wrote: Well I knew this older soldeir when I first got in the service and he told me of an incident back in 67 of a US ship that was 'shot out of the water', I don't remember that it was Isreal that attacked it, somehow that part of it eludes me, but as I read about this attack it, brought up similarities to the one he mentioned. I need to do more research to be sure. So right now I can't say.
I will say for now its the 'why' Isreal attacked it that bugs me.
Hi, I'm back. I didn't realize it was threading along so sorry for not answering back sooner.
The attack on the USS Liberty is one of the most needling controversies in US (and Israeli) history. It marks the first and only time ever, to this day, that American Servicemen have been...
1. Intentionally attacked by a nation deemed to be an ally.
2. Deliberately left to defend themselves without support , by direct order of Robert McNamara.
3. Threatened with demotions, injuries, and loss of life to their families and themselves if they were to ever discuss the incident with anyone whatsoever (that is, only the "official" story may be mentioned as the truth of what occurred).
Check the Liberty website for the real full story of the incident USS Liberty
This link has really insightful interviews with many Liberty survivors
Liberty Interviews
It's shocking stuff......
I will say for now its the 'why' Isreal attacked it that bugs me.
Hi, I'm back. I didn't realize it was threading along so sorry for not answering back sooner.
The attack on the USS Liberty is one of the most needling controversies in US (and Israeli) history. It marks the first and only time ever, to this day, that American Servicemen have been...
1. Intentionally attacked by a nation deemed to be an ally.
2. Deliberately left to defend themselves without support , by direct order of Robert McNamara.
3. Threatened with demotions, injuries, and loss of life to their families and themselves if they were to ever discuss the incident with anyone whatsoever (that is, only the "official" story may be mentioned as the truth of what occurred).
Check the Liberty website for the real full story of the incident USS Liberty
This link has really insightful interviews with many Liberty survivors
Liberty Interviews
It's shocking stuff......
No WMD...so what?
spot wrote: You can say that in the context of Vietnam? This is a minor aside, I'm more than happy merely to comment on it and then leave it be, but I am gobsmacked by the arrogance of your condescension. Whose country was this war fought in, exactly? You don't disagree with being friends with the Vietnamese? In the face of the generosity of heart on the part of the surviving Vietnamese, that they are prepared to forgive what you did to them, you could try to be a bit more gracious about it.
Once again, evidence that we don't speak the same language. You missed the point completely but it would be useless to try to explain why. I'm arrogant and condescending....okay, I've been called worse.
Once again, evidence that we don't speak the same language. You missed the point completely but it would be useless to try to explain why. I'm arrogant and condescending....okay, I've been called worse.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
No WMD...so what?
spot wrote: You can say that in the context of Vietnam? This is a minor aside, I'm more than happy merely to comment on it and then leave it be, but I am gobsmacked by the arrogance of your condescension. Whose country was this war fought in, exactly? You don't disagree with being friends with the Vietnamese? In the face of the generosity of heart on the part of the surviving Vietnamese, that they are prepared to forgive what you did to them, you could try to be a bit more gracious about it.
Why not?
We went to Vietnam to keep the north from overrunning the south. We gave 50,000 lives for that purpose. I was there and that was at least what we thought we were doing. We pulled out and the north prevailed. Your comment says to me that the three years of my life given to that cause were for nothing and the lives that were given were for nothing. That may be the way it is seen today but it wasn’t the way we saw it then. Then, we were doing what we believed to be honorable.
You call me arrogant and condescending because I think those lives meant something. Call me anything you want.
You point your finger and say, “what you did to themâ€. I thought you said you are an American citizen.
The USS Liberty was bombed by Israel in 1967. Israel apologized. There was more going on there than anyone here knows, yet in an effort to smear Israel you see anything as fair game. Do you remember the USS Stark? That happened in 2001. Are you outraged that our ships were hit and lives were lost in Grenada?
I still don't see the connection between the Liberty and WMD in Iraq.
Why not?
We went to Vietnam to keep the north from overrunning the south. We gave 50,000 lives for that purpose. I was there and that was at least what we thought we were doing. We pulled out and the north prevailed. Your comment says to me that the three years of my life given to that cause were for nothing and the lives that were given were for nothing. That may be the way it is seen today but it wasn’t the way we saw it then. Then, we were doing what we believed to be honorable.
You call me arrogant and condescending because I think those lives meant something. Call me anything you want.
You point your finger and say, “what you did to themâ€. I thought you said you are an American citizen.
The USS Liberty was bombed by Israel in 1967. Israel apologized. There was more going on there than anyone here knows, yet in an effort to smear Israel you see anything as fair game. Do you remember the USS Stark? That happened in 2001. Are you outraged that our ships were hit and lives were lost in Grenada?
I still don't see the connection between the Liberty and WMD in Iraq.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
No WMD...so what?
I still don't see the connection between the Liberty and WMD in Iraq.
It wasn't. It was linked to an aside someone mentioning Israel as the 51st state. Israel's official stance on the Liberty is that it was attacked by "mistake", for which they apologize. The survivors of the Liberty say differently.
It wasn't. It was linked to an aside someone mentioning Israel as the 51st state. Israel's official stance on the Liberty is that it was attacked by "mistake", for which they apologize. The survivors of the Liberty say differently.
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capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
No WMD...so what?
America the beautiful and the land of the free.One police, many secret services?
No WMD...so what?
Clint wrote: You call me arrogant and condescending because I think those lives meant something. Call me anything you want.
You point your finger and say, “what you did to themâ€. I thought you said you are an American citizen.
The USS Liberty was bombed by Israel in 1967. Israel apologized. There was more going on there than anyone here knows, yet in an effort to smear Israel you see anything as fair game. Do you remember the USS Stark? That happened in 2001. Are you outraged that our ships were hit and lives were lost in Grenada?Clint, If you thought I said I am an American citizen, you mis-heard something along the way. As for me seeing anything as fair game in an effort to smear Israel, I haven't mentioned USS Liberty once. The only passing reference I made to Israel is that it has ties with America so close that it could be mistaken for the 51st State, and that I visit friends there sometimes. I'm an enemy of Israel?
I called your condescension arrogant because you think it's just up to America to offer the hand of friendship, as though the Vietnamese are inevitably going to be thankful if it's offered them. As the injured party, surely it's up to the Vietnamese to take that step. If there's thanks to be offered for the hand of friendship, it belongs to the Vietnamese. Whose civil war got escalated, yours or theirs? Did any civilian Americans get killed from being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
The rest is somewhat confused. You think the USS Stark was hit in 2001? It was hit by an Iraqi Mirage three years into the Iraq-Iran War, in 1987, sailing through a war zone with a defective defense system. ' Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger described the attack on the Stark as a "horrible error," and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was quick to apologize for the "unintentional incident." Evidently, the Mirage pilot had mistaken the Stark for an Iranian tanker. ' What the relevance of either that or Grenada is, I'm not sure. I feel flailed at.
You point your finger and say, “what you did to themâ€. I thought you said you are an American citizen.
The USS Liberty was bombed by Israel in 1967. Israel apologized. There was more going on there than anyone here knows, yet in an effort to smear Israel you see anything as fair game. Do you remember the USS Stark? That happened in 2001. Are you outraged that our ships were hit and lives were lost in Grenada?Clint, If you thought I said I am an American citizen, you mis-heard something along the way. As for me seeing anything as fair game in an effort to smear Israel, I haven't mentioned USS Liberty once. The only passing reference I made to Israel is that it has ties with America so close that it could be mistaken for the 51st State, and that I visit friends there sometimes. I'm an enemy of Israel?
I called your condescension arrogant because you think it's just up to America to offer the hand of friendship, as though the Vietnamese are inevitably going to be thankful if it's offered them. As the injured party, surely it's up to the Vietnamese to take that step. If there's thanks to be offered for the hand of friendship, it belongs to the Vietnamese. Whose civil war got escalated, yours or theirs? Did any civilian Americans get killed from being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
The rest is somewhat confused. You think the USS Stark was hit in 2001? It was hit by an Iraqi Mirage three years into the Iraq-Iran War, in 1987, sailing through a war zone with a defective defense system. ' Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger described the attack on the Stark as a "horrible error," and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was quick to apologize for the "unintentional incident." Evidently, the Mirage pilot had mistaken the Stark for an Iranian tanker. ' What the relevance of either that or Grenada is, I'm not sure. I feel flailed at.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
No WMD...so what?
Jiperly wrote: Can you disagree with that in the context of England? France? Canada? Russia?
Many of Americas most influental allies were once their enemies.Thank you Jiperly, you rather help make my point. The US, England, France, Canada and Russia were big boys, fighting with rough parity in a balanced fashion. Vietnam was fighting a civil war, stemming from a colonial independence struggle, when it got raped by various parties whose sole interest at the time was that they avoid fighting each other. Korea involved foreign interference because Stalin wanted to test the West. Vietnam involved foreign interference because some American analysts invented the Domino Theory. Both nations hosted proxy wars. Vietnam was never an enemy of the US, but the US was an enemy of Vietnam. Hence my point about who has the right to forgive whom.
Many of Americas most influental allies were once their enemies.Thank you Jiperly, you rather help make my point. The US, England, France, Canada and Russia were big boys, fighting with rough parity in a balanced fashion. Vietnam was fighting a civil war, stemming from a colonial independence struggle, when it got raped by various parties whose sole interest at the time was that they avoid fighting each other. Korea involved foreign interference because Stalin wanted to test the West. Vietnam involved foreign interference because some American analysts invented the Domino Theory. Both nations hosted proxy wars. Vietnam was never an enemy of the US, but the US was an enemy of Vietnam. Hence my point about who has the right to forgive whom.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
No WMD...so what?
spot wrote: Clint, If you thought I said I am an American citizen, you mis-heard something along the way. As for me seeing anything as fair game in an effort to smear Israel, I haven't mentioned USS Liberty once. The only passing reference I made to Israel is that it has ties with America so close that it could be mistaken for the 51st State, and that I visit friends there sometimes. I'm an enemy of Israel?
I called your condescension arrogant because you think it's just up to America to offer the hand of friendship, as though the Vietnamese are inevitably going to be thankful if it's offered them. As the injured party, surely it's up to the Vietnamese to take that step. If there's thanks to be offered for the hand of friendship, it belongs to the Vietnamese. Whose civil war got escalated, yours or theirs? Did any civilian Americans get killed from being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
The rest is somewhat confused. You think the USS Stark was hit in 2001? It was hit by an Iraqi Mirage three years into the Iraq-Iran War, in 1987, sailing through a war zone with a defective defense system. ' Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger described the attack on the Stark as a "horrible error," and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was quick to apologize for the "unintentional incident." Evidently, the Mirage pilot had mistaken the Stark for an Iranian tanker. ' What the relevance of either that or Grenada is, I'm not sure. I feel flailed at.
My only excuse is that I stayed up way past my bedtime, consumed with another issue. I knew I should have kept quiet. Sorry for assigning things to you that didn’t belong to you. I probably was flailing. I get wound pretty tight when I here what terrible people we are because we got involved in Vietnam. It was us, with South Vietnam, fighting against the North Vietnamese aggressors.
I was thinking of the Cole, said the Stark and I was off a year on the Cole. Anyway, all of this has lost its relevance…if it ever had any.
No, I wasn’t under the influence of any substances…just too tired and distracted.
I called your condescension arrogant because you think it's just up to America to offer the hand of friendship, as though the Vietnamese are inevitably going to be thankful if it's offered them. As the injured party, surely it's up to the Vietnamese to take that step. If there's thanks to be offered for the hand of friendship, it belongs to the Vietnamese. Whose civil war got escalated, yours or theirs? Did any civilian Americans get killed from being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
The rest is somewhat confused. You think the USS Stark was hit in 2001? It was hit by an Iraqi Mirage three years into the Iraq-Iran War, in 1987, sailing through a war zone with a defective defense system. ' Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger described the attack on the Stark as a "horrible error," and Iraqi President Saddam Hussein was quick to apologize for the "unintentional incident." Evidently, the Mirage pilot had mistaken the Stark for an Iranian tanker. ' What the relevance of either that or Grenada is, I'm not sure. I feel flailed at.
My only excuse is that I stayed up way past my bedtime, consumed with another issue. I knew I should have kept quiet. Sorry for assigning things to you that didn’t belong to you. I probably was flailing. I get wound pretty tight when I here what terrible people we are because we got involved in Vietnam. It was us, with South Vietnam, fighting against the North Vietnamese aggressors.
I was thinking of the Cole, said the Stark and I was off a year on the Cole. Anyway, all of this has lost its relevance…if it ever had any.
No, I wasn’t under the influence of any substances…just too tired and distracted.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
No WMD...so what?
Clint wrote: My only excuse is that I stayed up way past my bedtime, consumed with another issue. I knew I should have kept quiet.Not at all, Clint. I've often been far more needlessly brusque and inaccurate, with far less excuse. As for defending your involvement in South East Asia, I don't believe you have to, either for yourself or your colleagues. There is an overwhelming difference between the soldier at the sharp end of conflict and the political strategist who put him there. I'm not even suggesting that the politicians were wrong in getting the US involved, either. It's far too complex a path to take this thread near.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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BuckTurgidson
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:19 pm
No WMD...so what?
Far Rider wrote: C'mon Buck you have to know the whole story, It was easy for me to find.
The USS Liberty was attacked cause we were spying. The quote I posted mentioned being torpedoed. That would be by PT boats.
'Spying' and collecting free floating SIGINT are two different things, I think. Surveillience I think would be a better description. Anyway, whatever you would like to call it, dont you think the Israeli response was a bit 'over the top'? Especially since they were our 'Allies'?
The USS Liberty was attacked cause we were spying. The quote I posted mentioned being torpedoed. That would be by PT boats.
'Spying' and collecting free floating SIGINT are two different things, I think. Surveillience I think would be a better description. Anyway, whatever you would like to call it, dont you think the Israeli response was a bit 'over the top'? Especially since they were our 'Allies'?
No WMD...so what?
BuckTurgidson wrote: 'Spying' and collecting free floating SIGINT are two different things, I think. Surveillience I think would be a better description. Anyway, whatever you would like to call it, dont you think the Israeli response was a bit 'over the top'? Especially since they were our 'Allies'?
Just a BIT over the top!! Have all of you looked at the Liberty website yet? I linked it a few threads back. The Israelis were even trying to sink the liferafts - there were meant to be no survivors that day.
Why it was done is easier to answer, imo, than why the Americans were left to die by their own Sec. of Defence McNamara. And why they were ordered to keep quiet about it or else pay the price.
Israel was almost certainly trying to sink the Liberty and have it blamed on Egypt to draw the US into the war. That is why it was key to make sure nobody survived the attack.
Why were they left on their own, by their own country? That infuriates me no end. It leads one to believe very strongly that there was an element within the US Admin. that owed their allegiance to Israel more than to the US! And as this incident is STILL being hushed, that there still exist those elements within today's US Gov't.
Just a BIT over the top!! Have all of you looked at the Liberty website yet? I linked it a few threads back. The Israelis were even trying to sink the liferafts - there were meant to be no survivors that day.
Why it was done is easier to answer, imo, than why the Americans were left to die by their own Sec. of Defence McNamara. And why they were ordered to keep quiet about it or else pay the price.
Israel was almost certainly trying to sink the Liberty and have it blamed on Egypt to draw the US into the war. That is why it was key to make sure nobody survived the attack.
Why were they left on their own, by their own country? That infuriates me no end. It leads one to believe very strongly that there was an element within the US Admin. that owed their allegiance to Israel more than to the US! And as this incident is STILL being hushed, that there still exist those elements within today's US Gov't.
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BuckTurgidson
- Posts: 60
- Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:19 pm
No WMD...so what?
Whats up Turbo? I wanna address your points about 'allegiences' and so forth, but I got company coming over. Gonna be around later tonight?
No WMD...so what?
spot wrote: About one coalition troop for each ten US troops, Far Rider. The breakdown at the moment is:
United Kingdom 8761
South Korea 3600
Italy 3,085
Poland 1,700
Ukraine 1,450
Georgia 898
Romania 730
Japan 550
Denmark 496
Bulgaria 450
El Salvador 380
Australia 400
Mongolia 180
Azerbaijan 151
Latvia 122
Czech Republic 110
Lithuania 120
Slovakia 105
Albania 71
Estonia 55
Armenia 46
Macedonia 33
Kazakhstan 29
Norway 10
Fiji 150
I'm not sure what the US has done recently as a favor for Norway or Denmark, but the rest I recognize.
I do note, in passing, that the President entirely gets the wrong end of the stick when he says "there are some that feel like if they attack us that we may decide to leave prematurely". These "bomb-wielding, knife carrying, surface-to-air missile -carrying islamic fundamentalist zealots" are obviously attacking so as to lengthen the period of conflict, not to reduce it.
Too bad it did not look like this:
United Kingdom 87,610
South Korea 36,000
Italy 30,850
Poland 17,000
Ukraine 1,450
Georgia 8,980
Romania 7,300
Japan 5,500
Denmark 4,960
Bulgaria 4,500
El Salvador 3,800
Australia 4,000
Mongolia 1,800
Azerbaijan 1,510
Latvia 1,220
Czech Republic 1,100,
Lithuania 1,200
Slovakia 1,050
Albania 710
Estonia 550
Armenia 460
Macedonia 330
Kazakhstan 290
Norway 100
Fiji 1,500
Maybe if others stood up like they should we would be done with this?
United Kingdom 8761
South Korea 3600
Italy 3,085
Poland 1,700
Ukraine 1,450
Georgia 898
Romania 730
Japan 550
Denmark 496
Bulgaria 450
El Salvador 380
Australia 400
Mongolia 180
Azerbaijan 151
Latvia 122
Czech Republic 110
Lithuania 120
Slovakia 105
Albania 71
Estonia 55
Armenia 46
Macedonia 33
Kazakhstan 29
Norway 10
Fiji 150
I'm not sure what the US has done recently as a favor for Norway or Denmark, but the rest I recognize.
I do note, in passing, that the President entirely gets the wrong end of the stick when he says "there are some that feel like if they attack us that we may decide to leave prematurely". These "bomb-wielding, knife carrying, surface-to-air missile -carrying islamic fundamentalist zealots" are obviously attacking so as to lengthen the period of conflict, not to reduce it.
Too bad it did not look like this:
United Kingdom 87,610
South Korea 36,000
Italy 30,850
Poland 17,000
Ukraine 1,450
Georgia 8,980
Romania 7,300
Japan 5,500
Denmark 4,960
Bulgaria 4,500
El Salvador 3,800
Australia 4,000
Mongolia 1,800
Azerbaijan 1,510
Latvia 1,220
Czech Republic 1,100,
Lithuania 1,200
Slovakia 1,050
Albania 710
Estonia 550
Armenia 460
Macedonia 330
Kazakhstan 290
Norway 100
Fiji 1,500
Maybe if others stood up like they should we would be done with this?
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
No WMD...so what?
BTS wrote: Maybe if others stood up like they should we would be done with this?Well. Definitely, BTS. I think the paltry half-heartedness says something, given how much the US can afford to bribe all those small countries with.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
No WMD...so what?
BuckTurgidson wrote: Whats up Turbo? I wanna address your points about 'allegiences' and so forth, but I got company coming over. Gonna be around later tonight?
Hi Buck, I'll be around. PM me and we can discuss this in a new thread if you'd like.....
Hi Buck, I'll be around. PM me and we can discuss this in a new thread if you'd like.....
No WMD...so what?
Far Rider wrote: Buck I'd like to follow this issue more to, maybe its own thread, instead of here, this is getting off track. I am amazed I have not heard of this before. Or maybe I did and dismissed it for lack of evidence? I'm not sure.
Kind of a shock to the system, isn't it FR? We can discuss this in a new thread, if you'd like to start one.....
Kind of a shock to the system, isn't it FR? We can discuss this in a new thread, if you'd like to start one.....