To Whom It May Concern

goodman · Post by **goodman** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 5:37 am

Insulting our Prophet is freedom of expression, but criticism of a small Jew rabbi or a church is a big crime.

Bombarding the buildings which collapse onto our women and children is spreading democracy, but defending ourselves by killing the invaders and their agents is terrorism.

Look what your politicians say now:

[QUOTE]The Guardian,

Saturday March 15 2008

Western governments must talk to terror groups including al-Qaida and the Taliban if they hope to secure a long-term halt to their campaigns of violence, according to Jonathan Powell, the man who for more than a decade was Tony Blair's most influential aide and adviser.

[/QUOTE]

The abc.net

But proponents say Al Qaeda has established itself as a de facto power,whether the West likes it or not, and history shows militant movements are best neutralised by negotiation, not war

Now we advice you to read carefully this last message for you from Sheikh Osama Ben Laden who sent you several messages.

We advice you to take it seriously before it is too late, so you will regret but it will be unavailing.

May Our Mothers Be Bereaved Of Us If We Fail To Help The Messenger Of Allah (Peace And Blessings Of Allah Be Upon Him)

To the intelligent ones in the European Union: peace be upon he who follows the guidance.

This talk of mine is to you and concerns the insulting drawings and your negligence in spite of the opportunity presented to take the necessary measures to prevent their being repeated.

To begin, I tell you:

Hostility between human beings is very old, but the intelligent ones among the nations in all eras have been keen to observe the etiquettes of dispute and morals of fighting.

This is best for them, as conflict is ever changing and war has its ups and downs. However, you, in your conflict with us, have abandoned many of the morals of fighting in practice, even if you hold aloft its slogans in theory.

How it saddens us that you target our villages with your bombing: those modest mud villages which have collapsed onto our women and children. You do that intentionally, and I am witness to that. All of this [you do] without right and in conformity with your oppressive ally who -along with his aggressive policies- is about to depart the White House.

And it is no longer hidden from you that these savage acts haven't ended the war, but rather, increase our determination to cling to our right, avenge our people and expel the invaders from our country. And [you also know now] that these massacres are never erased from the memory of the peoples, and the effects of this are not hidden.

Although our tragedy in your killing of our women and children is a very great one, it paled when you went overboard in your unbelief and freed yourselves of the etiquettes of dispute and fighting and went to the extent of publishing these insulting drawings. This is the greater and more serious tragedy, and reckoning for it will be more severe. And I bring your attention to a telling matter, which is that despite your publishing of the insulting drawings, you haven't seen any reaction from the one and a half billion Muslims which includes an insult to the Prophet of Allah, Jesus the son of Mary (peace and prayers of Allah be upon him).

We believe in all of the Prophets (peace and prayers be upon them), and whoever detracts from or mocks any one of them is an apostate unbeliever. And here it is worth pointing out that there is no need to use as an excuse the sacredness you accord freedom of expression and the sacredness of your laws and how you won't change them.

If so, then on what basis were American soldiers exempted from being subject to your laws on your land? And on what basis do you suppress the freedom of those who cast doubt on the statistics of an historical event? In addition, you know that there is one man who can put an end to these drawings, if it mattered to him: the crownless king in Riyadh, who ordered your legal institutions to stop their investigations into the embezzlement of billions from the al-Yamamah deal, and Blair carried this out, and he is today your representative in the quartet.

To sum up, then, the laws of men which clash with the legislations of Allah the Most High are null and void, aren't sacred, and don't matter to us. And in addition, your practical stance towards the al-Yamamah deal requires you to admit that there are some values which are greater than your values. In closing, I tell you: if there is no check on the freedom of your words, then let your hearts be open to the freedom of our actions

And it is amazing and to make light of others that you talk about tolerance and peace at a time when your soldiers perpetrate murder even against the weak and oppressed in our countries. Then came your publishing of these drawings, which came in the framework of a new Crusade in which the Pope of the Vatican has played a large, lengthy role.

And all of that is confirmation on your part of the continuation of the

war, as well as a testing of the Muslims in their religion: is the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) more beloved to them than themselves and their wealth? The answer is what you see, not what you hear, and may our mothers be bereaved of us if we fail to help the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).

And peace be upon he who follows the guidance.

Sheik Osama Ben Laden may Allah protect him

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:13 am

Um yeh, okay. Well, welcome! :-6 Do you have any hobbies?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:26 am

Welcome aboard, I think.

I can't wait for Jester to catch up with this one.:wah:

Goodman: you should be aware that a great many ordinary people did not support the invasion of Iraq or Afganistan and some post on these boards. Don't refer to everyone as if they are all one person - there's a wide range of opinion.

For example, I supported the invasion of Iraq on the grounds that Saddam was a torturer and the Iraqi people didn't want him. I remember the scenes as the statue of Saddam was toppled and the local people spat on it and hit it with their shoes. I thought we were helping the Iraqi people - I did not expect the sheer stupidity demonstrated by the occupying powers after that.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Mahatma Gandhi

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:47 am

While I'm at it: I think you say - and I agree - that bombing villages and killing women and children increases hatred of the West. Every bomb that goes off and kills Westerners increases hatred of Islam. Do you want the West to hate Islam?

And I never heard this concern about the innocent women and children when Saddam was nerve-gassing the Kurds. Why didn't the Islamic states do something about it? Is it because it's ok if it is Muslims doing the killing?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:49 am

I stopped reading here. ---> but criticism of a small Jew rabbi or a church is a big crime.

Whats your favorite cookie ?

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:55 am

Seems to me that more women and children have been killed by insurgents then foreign soldiers. Suicide bombers driving cars that have been turned into bombs and men, women, and now the mentally handicapped walk into crowds with bombs strapped to their bodies and blow themselves up. I am not sure how this can be described as "defending ourselves" when foreign soldiers are not the target but citizens of Iraq going about the daily rituals of shopping or attending worship.

Whether we should have gone into Iraq is now a moot point. What is done is done. It would be immoral to leave the country in the condition that it is in now. American soldiers would be more then happy to put down their weapons and help rebuild the country so that they could come home to their families but until ALL citizens of the country are safe - that can't happen.

Post by **spot** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:08 am

goodman, I think if you stay for a while you'll find you're wrong in some of your assumptions.

Insulting the Prophet is not freedom of expression here, it's very much frowned on. I don't remember it ever having happened though you might excuse our ignorance if you discover that it has.

Criticizing many aspects of life in the West including some behaviour of Christian churches, and a disapproval of all the intransigent parties in the Middle East including those in Israel, is frequent. Not everyone disapproves, not everyone approves. We enjoy exploring our differences and our common ground. We rarely dislike each other.

If you can stay and post in our discussions we'd be delighted.

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:09 am

Welcome to FG.

I have trouble seeing how some silly doodles (cartoons) are the worst of the problem here. Hopefully outside governments will see that bombs and war do not bring peace but it doesn't seem to help the situation to focus on a cartoon either.

Anyone looking for a reason to fight will surely find it.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:24 am

koan;812596 wrote: Welcome to FG.

I have trouble seeing how some silly doodles (cartoons) are the worst of the problem here. Hopefully outside governments will see that bombs and war do not bring peace but it doesn't seem to help the situation to focus on a cartoon either.

Anyone looking for a reason to fight will surely find it.

There ya go making sense again

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:46 am

Goodman: Oh, and criticising Rabbis, Popes and Churches is not a crime, big or little. Where did you get that idea?

Post by **spot** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:59 am

Actually we quite enjoy criticising Rabbis, Popes and Churches.

As for the cartoons, you hand power to anyone if you say "don't do THAT or I'll stop what I'm doing and spend the next hour screaming at the top of my voice and being really really annoyed". It doesn't really matter what THAT is. Sometimes it's making images, sometimes it's firing home-made rockets or kidnapping a soldier or two. If you hand your entire policymaking to anyone who does THAT then you're left with no control over your own actions.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:31 am

ForumGarden: a non-Prophet organization :yh_angel

koan · Post by **koan** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:32 am

Against the odds that you've just dropped this nugget of happiness and run away, I had a few moments to think about what I would say if given the chance to talk to an "insurgent" and came up with this:

We have historical examples of how to successfully defeat an oppressive situation and it is nothing like what is happening with the Palestinian wannabe heroes. Both Gandhi and Mandela spent much of their lives in jail. They were speechmakers who appealed to the world at large and they were willing to sacrifice themselves for their cause. I'm not convinced that Israelis would jail someone important and keep them alive. They have a policy of assassination... or did so openly for some time.

No matter what action is taken, Palestinians will continue to die. The only hope they have of changing things is to stop resisting. If Israel drops five air strike bombs and Palestine fires one land rocket, the news will talk about the land rocket and use it to justify the air strikes. With or without the rockets being fired, Palestinians will die more rapidly than Israelis. The only chance of winning is to stop firing rockets and stop blowing yourselves up.

The only tools needed are a) a leader who believes in peace and non-violence b)the presence of media to record the slaughter of innocent people.

Fighting back takes away the possibility of being seen as "innocent" and does nothing to reduce the number of Palestinians being murdered.

That is what I have to say to "insurgents" if given my five minutes. Whether or not you listen to someone who knows nothing of the reality that is being endured in the Middle East or not, there are historical examples of what works and what doesn't.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:34 am

Nomad;812554 wrote: I stopped reading here. ---> but criticism of a small Jew rabbi or a church is a big crime.

Ditto.

I have much better ways to waste my time. :-6

Post by **spot** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:37 am

But neither of you disengaged from the conversation. Both of you made a point by commenting that you'd stopped reading. Other people have doubtless stopped reading and gone on to other threads without saying so. There's a big difference between the one action and the other.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:43 am

Against the odds that you've just dropped this nugget of happiness and run away

koan: If he does hang around it'll be a big surprise. They can rarely cope with argument. Only one I've met on the boards who could was an Egyptian lady, who possibly had her little brother commenting under her name without her knowing since she varied between kindly good sense and irrational threatening posts of hate!

Is there any real difference between a christian fundamentalist and a muslim fundamentalist?

AHA: IT'S JESTER IN DISGUISE! :p

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:03 am

Welcome to the Garden where freedom of thoughts can be expressed without prejudice.

I see more comedy skits about Christianity than any other religion on TV. Have you ever seen The Life of Brian? Total take off of the life of Christ.

One cartoon about your religion and you declare a death on a person and riot in streets followed by the comment ‘peace be upon him’.

War and revenge only leads to more and more death and hatred. That is why forgiveness, understanding and reconciliation is the only answer.

mikeinie · Post by **mikeinie** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:09 am

Typical, I checked his profile.

Just Joined

No additional information about his/her detail.

Probable will never respond

Had no intention of engaging in debate or discussion as there is no response or further posts.

Just wanted to join, post his message of hate and revenge and crawl away.

Post by **spot** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:17 am

You never know. I agree it's not likely. Maybe someone else with similar opinions will come in and take up the discussion instead, who can tell. It's better than leaving the post unaddressed.

abbey · Post by **abbey** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:17 pm

goodman;812483 wrote:

Sheik Osama Ben Laden may Allah protect himYea right! :rolleyes:

Post by **spot** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:24 pm

People have short memories abbey. Twenty years ago he was a hero to the Americans too when he was helping push the Soviets out of Afghanistan. Just like twenty years ago Saddam Hussein was a hero to the Americans. So was that chappie in Panama whatever his name was. Noriega. It just goes to show what happens if you step out of line after working with them, doesn't it.

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:31 pm

mikeinie;812811 wrote: Typical, I checked his profile.

Just Joined

No additional information about his/her detail.

Probable will never respond

Had no intention of engaging in debate or discussion as there is no response or further posts.

Just wanted to join, post his message of hate and revenge and crawl away.

I agree. That poster does not seem interested in what others have to say.

cars · Post by **cars** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:38 pm

abbey;813101 wrote: Yea right! :rolleyes:

:D Bless you abbs!!!! Right to the point!!!

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:48 pm

Its interesting that in the message, Bin Laden seems more outraged by 12 Ironic cartoons in a Danish paper, than the claimed bombing of muslim women and children in mudhuts, it's a good illustration of the warped morality of ideologues, especially the religious ones.

I would say its fair comment that many Muslims and other people living across the middle east have real issues that are causing them pain, some of it because of the actions of Western countries, some because of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, some of it because of the rise of fundamentalists and their facist doctrines, some of it because of the repression of existing governments, but most of it because of poverty, exclusion, and deprivation. Some believe that this is because there isn't enough religion in that region, my take would be that its because there is too much. What the middle east needs is an enlightenment, similar to the one that helped free Europe from dogma, poverty, and ignorance not a reformation or counter reformation.

Richard Bell · Post by **Richard Bell** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:29 pm

Mr. Goodman :

I thought you were great as Dan in Roseanne .

You also did a wonderful acting job in your role as Babe Ruth.

Welcome to FG. Nice to have a celebrity here!

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:50 am

spot;813111 wrote: People have short memories abbey. Twenty years ago he was a hero to the Americans too when he was helping push the Soviets out of Afghanistan. Just like twenty years ago Saddam Hussein was a hero to the Americans. So was that chappie in Panama whatever his name was. Noriega. It just goes to show what happens if you step out of line after working with them, doesn't it.

Darn tootin....now get back in line Mr.

Richard Bell · Post by **Richard Bell** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:40 am

goodman;812483 wrote: a small Jew rabbi

I believe the most diminutive ones are known as "Wee-brews".

koan · Post by **koan** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:14 am

Imagine the trouble if they criticise a tall rabbi... :yh_ooooo