Murder? Wear Sackcloth and Ashes!

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:14 pm

Birmingham Mayor Suggests Prayer, Wearing Sacks to Curb Spate of Homicides

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. —

Struggling to confront a worsening homicide rate, the mayor of Birmingham asked pastors and citizens Friday to don burlap sacks and ashes Friday in an Old Testament-style sign of biblical repentance. Mayor Larry Langford said his "sackcloth and ashes" rally at Boutwell Auditorium was inspired by the Book of Jonah, where residents of the ancient city of Ninevah wore rough fabric and ashes as a sign of turning away from sin.

A pastor who helped organize the rally said Langford purchased 2,000 burlap bags that will be handed out at the event.

"We believe things begin to dramatically change when the mayor, or leader, calls for prayer. I don't think there's ever been a city called to sackcloth and ashes," Green said.

Since he took office last year, Langford has held three prayer rallies as a way of addressing crime and violence. Bibles were handed out at one of the events.

"This city needs to humble itself," said Langford, a professing Christian.

So far this year 27 people have been killed in Birmingham, compared to 19 at the same time last year.

The mayor's prayer rallies may run the potential of creating a dispute over church-state separation. Olivia Turner, director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Alabama, said the group has had complaints and is discussing the events.

"The worry I have is that there's a government endorsement of religion," said lawyer Bill Messer, a state ACLU board member. "Certainly, the mayor has a right like anyone else to express his personal religious beliefs. As mayor, acting on behalf of the city, religion should not become part of the government itself. If it's an official government event, that's troubling."

The Rev. Vernon Huguley, pastor of Our Lady Queen of the Universe Catholic Church, doesn't see a problem with a mayor calling for prayer.

"I believe they need to bring their faith into their profession," he said. "We've got to do something. What's been done in the past has not worked. This is something new."

Birmingham city officials have turned to prayer in the past to cope with the city's crime problems.

The former chief, Annetta Nunn, promoted the idea of turning people toward God to quell the violence in the city's neighborhoods, and she instituted a Bible-based plan of civic responsibility for cleaning up rundown neighborhoods.

The current police chief, Langford appointee A.C. Roper, has a lengthy resume that includes being an ordained minister. He was in the military and worked with the Hoover Police Department for nearly two decades.

Roper supports the repentance rally, but he said law enforcement cannot stop there.

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:22 pm

This looks so odd to British eyes. Is it as desperate as it appears?

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:14 pm

rjwould: Thanks. Ouch.

Have their been major business closures in Birmingham? This sort of thing is associated in my mind with poverty...

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:02 pm

Job losses in mining and manufacturing, but nothing that dramatic. Certainly not enough to explain why they are killing eachother at four times the national rate...

Clodhopper · Post by **Clodhopper** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:52 am

Rereading the posts, it appears that the "poverty and disenfranchisement" predate the more recent job losses. I don't say these things directly cause murder, but they do seem to be there in the background when crime rates increase.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:20 am

rjwould;847322 wrote: I'm not a big believer that poverty and unemployment is as big a factor of homicides as we are led to think.

No but it is a factor. It's a mistake to compare the UK and the US since the cultures are so very different but the difference between Birminham UK and Birmingham alabama is interesting-not least since the former was started in the sixth century but both were industrial cities whose economies have changed and birmingham is one of our more violent cities.

We have idiots here that want to import policing ideas from america which arguably is abig mistake. We really do have very different cultures and approach to things and there's little if anything we should copy. I suspect the same is probably true in reverse.

Any mayor suggesting we all pray would be greeted with widespread laughter and dismay IMO.

Pheasy · Post by **Pheasy** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:33 am

gmc;847464 wrote: No but it is a factor. It's a mistake to compare the UK and the US since the cultures are so very different but the difference between Birminham UK and Birmingham alabama is interesting-not least since the former was started in the sixth century but both were industrial cities whose economies have changed and birmingham is one of our more violent cities.

We have idiots here that want to import policing ideas from america which arguably is abig mistake. We really do have very different cultures and approach to things and there's little if anything we should copy. I suspect the same is probably true in reverse.

Any mayor suggesting we all pray would be greeted with widespread laughter and dismay IMO.

I agree in the UK that is exactly the response they might get - however,

over here it might just work :wah:

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:08 am

Pheasy;847467 wrote: I agree in the UK that is exactly the response they might get - however,

over here it might just work :wah:

Maybe it says more about the lack of real political debate in the US than anything else. Any kind of remotely socialist approaches don't seem to get off the ground Although what I actually know about political debate in the US leaves a lot to be desired.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:00 pm

posted by rjwould

What are the differences in your mind? Curious

Attitude to guns for one thing. Another is we tend to more socialistic in outlook i.e we expect govt to help take steps regenerate areas of mass unemployment. Things like social housing have been and are again a big political issue. One of the reasons Maggie thatcher was so unpopular is she was seen as being uncaring about ordinary people. Socialised medicine is a norm here and seeing constant American dramas where paying for medical bills is a common theme I can of wonder why you accept such a situation where being poor seem to mean you can't get medical treatment. Maybe we're just more demanding of government. Although I don't actually know enough about america to really put a clear case it's just an impression I have.

posted by rjwould

I agree. Stay away from our over reaching policing policies. We fear our police more than they fear the people, and they throw you in handcuffs real fast.

I agree, when a policeman approaches you i the street or stops you in the car what authority are you prepared to let him have? One of the reasons our police are unarmed was so they could NOT be used as an instrument of oppression against the people. That's something those who advocate arming them tend to forget or not be aware of. It's something unique to us- seeing armed police when abroad is a real culture shock. I suppose it's the difference between upholding the law and enforcing it.

911 · Post by **911** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:53 pm

Socialised medicine is a norm here and seeing constant American dramas where paying for medical bills is a common theme I can of wonder why you accept such a situation where being poor seem to mean you can't get medical treatment.

Not true. I know of no widespread turning away of people who cannot pay. It's against the law. They take them. They bill them. They take a payment plan. If the patient cannot pay, they sue. If the patient does not have money or property, they write it off.

From what I've heard, and I admit that I haven't really studied it, national health care isn't that great. I can go to my doctor, tell him of my complaints and he sends me to get any tests run he sees necessary. The same day or within three days. From what I understand, national health care in other countries do not do that and if they do it can take weeks or months to get the tests needed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

As far as the burlap and ashes, the great thing about USA is that if you don't want to do it, you don't have to. I don't see anything wrong with it. Our governor actually asked the state to pray for rain during the drought. Within the week it rained and according to the weatherman it wasn't supposed to. Does it hurt? No. Does it help? If it makes you feel better, do it.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:27 am

posted by 911

Not true. I know of no widespread turning away of people who cannot pay. It's against the law. They take them. They bill them. They take a payment plan. If the patient cannot pay, they sue. If the patient does not have money or property, they write it off.

For us it's free at the point of use, (although not actually free since we pay through taxes and it's not charity) no one gets sued and loses all they have to pay a medical bill or avoids going because of the cost. That seems rather obscene and it is a very common theme on most american drama where the level of treatment seems to depend on whether you have medical cover or are wealthy enough to pay o5r have enough to sell to finanve the cost. Also do you not wonder if the tests and treatment are actually necessary if profit is the main motive of the hospital or doctor? being cynical I would always wonder about that. I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I have used the NHS in the past thirty years (leaving aside the dentists-all my working live I have been paying for someone else-on the other hand I don't have to worry about the cost if I need treatment as i most assuredly will as I get older. or fall off my mountain bike or something stupid. You find those most vocal in opposition to the principle of the NHS who want to privatise it or bits of it are those who would be able to pay for themselves, would make money from it, or are selfish bastards that miss the point and want to jump the queue and quite frankly I have little patience for them.

From what I've heard, and I admit that I haven't really studied it, national health care isn't that great. I can go to my doctor, tell him of my complaints and he sends me to get any tests run he sees necessary. The same day or within three days. From what I understand, national health care in other countries do not do that and if they do it can take weeks or months to get the tests needed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Don't believe all you read. Ours is far from perfect but no one is denied or worries about paying for medical care. If it's urgent you'll get specialist care straight away if not life threatening then there are problems with delay depending on where you live. My father in law had a heart by pass operation postponed three times because of emergencies-on one occasion lying in the preparation room. He could have gone privately but refused as a matter of principle. I know a lot of people who feel the same. Different culture different approaches. It's a debate you don't really seem to have in the states. Comparing the two is a bit pointless as opponents in the US simply highlight all the problems and ignore the philosophical/cultural differences behind the two approaches.

Watch sicko by michael moore-I haven't and probably won't either since it's not really that fascinating to me as a non american but it seems like an issue we settled differently a long time ago..

As far as the burlap and ashes, the great thing about USA is that if you don't want to do it, you don't have to. I don't see anything wrong with it. Our governor actually asked the state to pray for rain during the drought. Within the week it rained and according to the weatherman it wasn't supposed to. Does it hurt? No. Does it help? If it makes you feel better, do it.

I wasn't aware anyone had suggested it was compulsory. In the UK such an approach would be seen as ludicrous and avoiding actually dealing with the situation. People would be torn between laughter and outrage You elect politicians to do things not lead a prayer meeting. That what I meant about cultural differences we generally have little patience with religious leaders trying to interfere in people's lives.

Bear in mind I am expressing a highly subjective viewpoint. We have a long history of poking fun at the sanctimonious.