Proof of God

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Sun May 18, 2008 3:29 pm

i dont know much about old or new testament or jews book but i can say that as i am a islam beleiver Quran is the completed book of three religions God

what can you tell about baal and old testament and what can you proof ?

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Sun May 18, 2008 5:43 pm

cloverleaf;869106 wrote: i dont know much about old or new testament or jews book but i can say that as i am a islam beleiver Quran is the completed book of three religions God

what can you tell about baal and old testament and what can you proof ?

Well, the story was interesting I thought ... (this is by memory so I might be off on some details)...

There were two groups of people that worshiped two different Gods... Yahweh and Baal. Each group thought they were correct. I'm guessing both groups were unpersuaded by the other group's arguments to the effect that they followed the one and only real God. So they set up a simple demonstration, where each set up two alters and asked their respective Gods to light them. Baal followers tried to induce their God, but there was no answer, Then the Yahweh followers did the same and a massive spike of fire shot from the sky, igniting the alter. The story turns gruesome afterwards, naturally as most Old Testament stories go... where all the Baal priests are rounded up and killed. I'd think it was an honest mistake, given how God has chosen to withhold any clear information about his nature.

The story is also a strange commentary on modern faith. .. do you think if two religions set up an equivalent challenge, either would be able to light as much as a candle? These disputes would be simple to resolve if God could bother himself to get involved in the debate.

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Sun May 18, 2008 11:12 pm

actually all stories about old religion groups in all holy books that came from one real God to human being through prophets are true but i could not remember this one from my book Quran

however this is how i beleive

i dont think anyone has right to judge or ask God question why

and God can not be called with lack of adjectives just like God thinks or make a plan

because God knows everything since beginning so He does not need to think or make plan etc...

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Sun May 18, 2008 11:41 pm

Adam's God, Abraham's God , Moses Jesus's and Mohammad's god

is that weird that God wants to talk to human?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon May 19, 2008 3:44 am

Careful Jester, yer bigotry's showing.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Mon May 19, 2008 8:14 am

Jester;869210 wrote: Mohammad's god is not the God of Adam, Abraham, Moses. And Jesus is God.

If there is only one god how can it possibly be a different one?

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:13 am

Ah, is this how it is, after thousands of years religions are still deadlocked in endless debate about which God is real? We should settle this Old Testament style.

Jester, if your God is the one true God, can you display this by having Him ignite the Statue of Liberty's flame with an enormous fire ball? I would prefer a smaller target, but I'd like something large enough that I can see on the news. This will also settle all doubts about America being God's chosen country

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Mon May 19, 2008 2:26 pm

Jester you can beleive whatever you want to beleive but you cant curse someone else's religion or his holies

i hope you understand

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Mon May 19, 2008 2:41 pm

I am just wondering that people who call Jesus as God

Can Jesus create a world like we live in?

if he can, what happens what if God does not want what jesus want?

who is real God?

do they call Jesus as God just because he did not have father?

what about Adam? he did not have father too

is Adam son of God or he is God too?

has Jesus ever said that he is God or he is son of God?

what will happen to christians in the end?

will they go to heaven? according to that beleif what will happen to others like jews and muslims (they beleive in same God different way) or budists people who worship to idols

does it matter if you were a good person or serial killer in this world as long as you beleive in Jesus ? i mean they say that Jesus died for christian beleivers sins

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon May 19, 2008 3:42 pm

cloverleaf;869800 wrote: I am just wondering that people who call Jesus as God

Can Jesus create a world like we live in?

if he can, what happens what if God does not want what jesus want?

who is real God?

do they call Jesus as God just because he did not have father?

what about Adam? he did not have father too

is Adam son of God or he is God too?

has Jesus ever said that he is God or he is son of God?

what will happen to christians in the end?

will they go to heaven? according to that beleif what will happen to others like jews and muslims (they beleive in same God different way) or budists people who worship to idols

does it matter if you were a good person or serial killer in this world as long as you beleive in Jesus ? i mean they say that Jesus died for christian beleivers sins

To a Christian this is a meaningless question. God, as a single entity, has three aspects the he presents to the world - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. Being one person there can be no difference in will - what Jesus wants *is* what God wants because they are one and the same.

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Mon May 19, 2008 4:15 pm

jester you re talkin like i am asking you to accept islam

just respect it

and whole things that you wrote about muslims like they roll heads rape children and burn them .....

where that happened?

and i can guratee that i can show you more massacres that christians did in history today and in the past midage if you proof that muslims raped people, rolled heads and burned children with the words of Mohammad

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Mon May 19, 2008 4:36 pm

bryn mawr

how can you explain that jews killed Jesus , they crucified him. how is that possible that human can torture a God? (God bled ?)

you christians say that Jesus died and then he was revived? even for few day did God die?

God sent messengers (prophets) in the past to teach truth to people then did God decide to come to earth with the face of Jesus

at least can you tell me had Jesus said that he was God and that was written right away?

or someone, 4 priests, wrote bibles years after Jesus was gone whatever they remembered ?

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Mon May 19, 2008 6:14 pm

you are a schizophrenic maniac

stay away from me

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon May 19, 2008 11:06 pm

cloverleaf;869869 wrote: bryn mawr

how can you explain that jews killed Jesus , they crucified him. how is that possible that human can torture a God? (God bled ?)

you christians say that Jesus died and then he was revived? even for few day did God die?

God sent messengers (prophets) in the past to teach truth to people then did God decide to come to earth with the face of Jesus

at least can you tell me had Jesus said that he was God and that was written right away?

or someone, 4 priests, wrote bibles years after Jesus was gone whatever they remembered ?

God can do anything - including appearing incarnate and allowing his earthly body to be killed. God was not killed, just the physical shell he was wearing at the time in order to teach and to bring forgiveness.

yaaarrrgg · Post by **yaaarrrgg** » Tue May 20, 2008 7:22 am

Jester;869774 wrote: Its already been settled old testament style... Why should God prove Himself in the face of those who reject Him yet again, especially after giving them an inate knowledge He exists, and setting all creation in order so magnificently?

The question of "what a person truly believes" is an interesting one. I'd argue that most theists really know, deep in their heart, that their God is not capable of performing any objectively testable miracle. Jesus said that if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you can move a mountain. It follows, if you can't move that mountain, you don't really believe what you claim to.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:50 pm

Jester;869558 wrote: My bigotry or the truth?

I keep thinking back to that saying 'one mans rebel is another mans freedom fighter'... guess it depends on perspective... and I'm ok with that, but when this clown PM's me asks me if I'm a chriastian then asks me what I think about Islam, and I tell him, then he passively threatens me by telling me to 'watch my mouth and I better respect Islam' then I have a problem with him, a big one.
Ah. That explains that. Carry on. :yh_flag

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:06 pm

I am not scared from your talking at all

why would i be scared?

the thing that i dont like is

you re cursing my religion my prophet (who is the one that my #1 love) you probably love same Jesus.

unfortnunately i cant punish you when you say something stupid about him

you can be sure that you ll stay in hell forever if i am right about religion otherwise i dont care what do you beleive in

or you can close your eyes and ears wait till the time comes

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Thu May 22, 2008 9:44 am

i think we re not speaking same language

becuase you dont understand what i say or you dont want to understand

you re sounding like you re a blood drinker flesh eater crusader when you re talking about islam

you can not say prophet of islam is a thug etc. dont you see the difference?

and i wonder how old are you?

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Fri May 23, 2008 12:30 am

you just should tolerate islam because of many people who are beleiving in islam and its prophet like we do

you can count your experiences about muslims or bad things about them but there are millions of christian that they did same or worst things in history even now or should i remind you about middle age terors that church did .

you say that you were a soldier so can you explain the things happen in Guantanamo? or how many us soldiers killed arabs in iraq or in somalia

what about the crusades? how many people did they kill people who defends your faith?

maybe i should remind you that cone heads in the us that they kill african americans in the name of christianity

if you look history and then make a honest comparison between islam and christianity before you say something

and because of you dont understand islam when you taste of hell fire you will be so so sorry but it will be too late you ll know

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri May 23, 2008 2:55 am

looking at the posts clearly neither christianity or islam are religions of compassion-or if they ever were the message has kind of gone by the board.

Don't know who first said it but if one man is delusional he is insane if a lot of people are delusional it becomes a religion.

You're arguing about whose imaginary friend is the right one, obviously ready to kill over it and both of you would probably join forces to insist that no one is allowed top make fun of religion and that your beliefs be treated with respect.

Thank god, if there is one, I'm not religious.

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:10 am

jester you re really idiot

anyway i ignore you from now on

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:15 am

Jab

i dont understand what you mean

if you dont tolarete something that you dont like you have to fight for it

that s what i meant

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:22 pm

Jester;872655 wrote: Ahh, but you miss the subtlty of it my friend, he's arguing that I have to respect or at least tolerate his relgion... Im saying I don't 'have to anything'.

I can fully respect him as a peaceful individual, but I wont respect nor tolerate the collective action of his religion due to thier violence agaisnt the innocent.

Thats the difference... if we were just talking ideas that were peaceful, be they religious or not, I wouldnt be argueing my point so veheemetly, I'd just be yakin, like Ted and I do.

My issue with Islam is thier current demonstratable violent behavior. Would you tolerate that? Do you respect that behavior?

Or did I miss your point completely and you were getting this thread back on topic?

Not really just putting a tuppence worth.

I will tolerate religion and the religious but a religious fanatic of any kind is dangerous.

As to which is more violent islam or Christianity I think it's a draw. People do bad things for many reasons but it takes religion to get a good man to do dreadful things while the men of god stand round and cheer them on. Being European I know more about the atrocities christians inflicted on other christians and on islamic peoples than I do of islamic ones. When it comes to the capacity for violence and warfare western nations take a back seat to no one.

It's a bit like two pots arguing which is blackest.

The early pagans called the christian god the selfish god because he claimed everything for himself-you could say the same of islam or of monotheistic religions in general. Both are terrified of any ideas that question the existence of god or a belief system because people who can think for themselves because make poor followers.

Both are riven by schisms and get more satisfaction in slaughtering each other than in living a good religious life. Those who would get swept along and find themselves drawn in to the violence. Those who are not religious at all and just want to live in peace look on in disbelief and then get swept in by the currents. All because to stand up and say this is a load of rubbish is frowned upon.

A culture where you are not allowed to challenge religious beliefs or where you are expected to "respect" them merely because someone believes it is dangerous. Earn respect and people might listen.

If violence is the result of a flaw of the religion or of the man's nature is a question i don't think there is an answer to. But then not being religious I can stand back and look at both dispassionately without the urge to beat the **** out of the opposing belief system.

As to a proof of god-well if he does exist none of the above discussion has made me more likely to believe it. To be blunt both islam and Christianity leave me cold. I can actually respect both and know and like people of both faiths. I believe in neither. the biggest flaw of religious fanatics is they have no sense of humour.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Sun May 25, 2008 7:46 pm

I've been away for a few weeks. An interesting discussion.

I think a lot of truth has been presented by all sides. I also think that the two religious sides have blinders on to certain things.

First of all I believe there is only one God. He/She has a thousand names and Allah is one of them.

It has been shown in several books but especially "The Great Transformation" by Karen Armstrong that the basis of all of the worlds great faiths is two tenets: justice and compassion.

Now we come to the problem all of the great faiths have their extremists or if you wish fanatics and this includes both Christianity and Islam. There are among all of the great faiths the middle of the road folks who strive for justice and compassion.

Christianity has had and continues to have atrocities committed in the name of God. I don't think there is any way to deny this.

By the same token Islam too has its extremists as jester has shown.

What does bother me as a Christian pluralist is the lack of respect I've seen on both sides not just here but all over. I respect the Islam that I've seen here where I live and I have met Muslims who respect my Christian faith.

A question for both sides. If God is almighty and knows all then why not leave the punishing up to God. If God is as above than why do we need crusaders or jihadists. Perhaps the very human person simply wants to commit atrocities in the name of God to somehow legitimate their stand. If God exists and I do believe in the reality of God than I'm not sure He/She is the least bit concerned about humans who make stupid comments. God is not that petty.

I'm puzzled by Clover's desire to punish jester. If God or Allah is all powerful than leave it up to Him/Her.

It is time for all faiths to get back to the original bases of justice and compassion.

Shalom

Ted:-6

ezanee · Post by **ezanee** » Sun May 25, 2008 9:57 pm

yaaarrrgg;868700 wrote: Not to belabor the obvious, but what's the origin of God? You are trying to explain complexity by assuming the existence of something even more complex.

everything looks complicated now if we think about god. god itself is beyond our imagination.

it's easier to beleive that god is there, somebody became his messenger, told us that god exists and He wants us to do this and that- this gives purposes to our life isnt it...apart from life struggles given us the purpose to do things everyday.

..sigh.

cloverleaf · Post by **cloverleaf** » Sun May 25, 2008 10:30 pm

Ted;

I should tell you that i dont want to punish jester because of he does not beleive in islam or prophet of islam , honestly i dont much care about what he beleives

but i dont have to respect his cursing to my religion right? i dont have to stand by his calling my prophet as thug etc..

for your question ;

God wanted to create universe in certain system like scientific system like math like physic chemical etc... thats why almost everything is on track (scientific track) but sometimes God wants to break this system and prophets miracles happen.

Jihad is the state that muslims are allowed only on certain stuations

and its not killing or punishing your christian neighbor

According to islam beleif ; we should not fight people who dont fight with us or curse Allah , islam or muslims or all prophets (all the things are holy in islam) on purpose, even in state of war we are not allowed to touch children , women old people people who does not fight with us

this is the main rule of islam about fighting

its not islams fault that because of some people rules islam wrong or some other understand right things as wrong