ezanee;874474 wrote: everything looks complicated now if we think about god. god itself is beyond our imagination.
it's easier to beleive that god is there, somebody became his messenger, told us that god exists and He wants us to do this and that- this gives purposes to our life isnt it...apart from life struggles given us the purpose to do things everyday.
..sigh.
God wanted to create universes (why? there none such question why because God wanted and any answers for it would create another question why)
and God wants us to do and not to do some certain things yes
and God wanted to create heaven and hell too
and God wanted to send some peope to heaven some to hell forever
so our job is doing what God wants from us to deserve heaven and stay away from his punisment (hell)
i suggest people not to get lost in space with asking wrong questions and trying not to find to answers
here s the of islam
beleive in there is only one God but God and Mohammad is the messenger of God
and die with this faith if you can and go to heaven forever or dont and go to hell forever
i dont understand how can they take the risk people who finds this is absurd
what if islam is right?
Proof of God
-
cloverleaf
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:39 pm
Proof of God
cloverleaf;874480 wrote: God wanted to create universes (why? there none such question why because God wanted and any answers for it would create another question why)
and God wants us to do and not to do some certain things yes
and God wanted to create heaven and hell too
and God wanted to send some peope to heaven some to hell forever
so our job is doing what God wants from us to deserve heaven and stay away from his punisment (hell)
i suggest people not to get lost in space with asking wrong questions and trying not to find to answers
here s the of islam
beleive in there is only one God but God and Mohammad is the messenger of God
and die with this faith if you can and go to heaven forever or dont and go to hell forever
i dont understand how can they take the risk people who finds this is absurd
what if islam is right?
hey cloverfield,
dont get me wrong..l like islam religion, going to revert to islam soon enough, l m studying it, most people hear about islam but they dont want to research it, for me i know islam from the Quran and the Hadith, its wonderful..not thru the 'muslims', muslim are brothers but we should increase our knowledge day by day. somebody here hate islam so much, he/she wouldnt bother to see the real islam as mentioned in Quran and Hadith.... they can hate Muhammad and Quran as they like, for me i chose to beleive.
enough of atheism...
by the way im a doctor specialising in otolaryngology, head and neck surgery somewhere on earth, i think i am smart enough to chose my religion;)
and God wants us to do and not to do some certain things yes
and God wanted to create heaven and hell too
and God wanted to send some peope to heaven some to hell forever
so our job is doing what God wants from us to deserve heaven and stay away from his punisment (hell)
i suggest people not to get lost in space with asking wrong questions and trying not to find to answers
here s the of islam
beleive in there is only one God but God and Mohammad is the messenger of God
and die with this faith if you can and go to heaven forever or dont and go to hell forever
i dont understand how can they take the risk people who finds this is absurd
what if islam is right?
hey cloverfield,
dont get me wrong..l like islam religion, going to revert to islam soon enough, l m studying it, most people hear about islam but they dont want to research it, for me i know islam from the Quran and the Hadith, its wonderful..not thru the 'muslims', muslim are brothers but we should increase our knowledge day by day. somebody here hate islam so much, he/she wouldnt bother to see the real islam as mentioned in Quran and Hadith.... they can hate Muhammad and Quran as they like, for me i chose to beleive.
enough of atheism...
by the way im a doctor specialising in otolaryngology, head and neck surgery somewhere on earth, i think i am smart enough to chose my religion;)
-
cloverleaf
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:39 pm
Proof of God
ezanee;874487 wrote: hey cloverfield,
dont get me wrong..l like islam religion, going to revert to islam soon enough, l m studying it, most people hear about islam but they dont want to research it, for me i know islam from the Quran and the Hadith, its wonderful..not thru the 'muslims', muslim are brothers but we should increase our knowledge day by day. somebody here hate islam so much, he/she wouldnt bother to see the real islam as mentioned in Quran and Hadith.... they can hate Muhammad and Quran as they like, for me i chose to beleive.
enough of atheism...
by the way im a doctor specialising in otolaryngology, head and neck surgery somewhere on earth, i think i am smart enough to chose my religion;)
you can ask me if there is something that makes you confuse about islam
or about islamic tradition
i also suggest to learn islam from imam birgivi (path of Muhammad)
which my wife learned alot from this book and she reverted in islam
or from al ghazali who is one of the bigest philosophers on earth
dont get me wrong..l like islam religion, going to revert to islam soon enough, l m studying it, most people hear about islam but they dont want to research it, for me i know islam from the Quran and the Hadith, its wonderful..not thru the 'muslims', muslim are brothers but we should increase our knowledge day by day. somebody here hate islam so much, he/she wouldnt bother to see the real islam as mentioned in Quran and Hadith.... they can hate Muhammad and Quran as they like, for me i chose to beleive.
enough of atheism...
by the way im a doctor specialising in otolaryngology, head and neck surgery somewhere on earth, i think i am smart enough to chose my religion;)
you can ask me if there is something that makes you confuse about islam
or about islamic tradition
i also suggest to learn islam from imam birgivi (path of Muhammad)
which my wife learned alot from this book and she reverted in islam
or from al ghazali who is one of the bigest philosophers on earth
Proof of God
jester:-6
You are speaking of only a branch of Islam. There are peaceful Muslims who look for justice and compassion. I know. I've met them.
It is no different in Christianity.
Shalom
Ted:-6
You are speaking of only a branch of Islam. There are peaceful Muslims who look for justice and compassion. I know. I've met them.
It is no different in Christianity.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
Clover:-6
Of course you do not have to respect his cursing your faith. On the other hand he does not have to respect Christianity being cursed either.
Could you please give me the Qur'an reference for killing someone because they have spoken ill of the Prophet or Allah.
You firmly believe that Islam is the true path. Many Christians believe that Christianity is the true path. It seems to me it is one thing to believe that one is right and the other is wrong but another to want to punish those who do not agree with them. Is God/Allah not capable of dealing with those whom He/She thinks needs to be dealt with? After all God/Allah is all powerful.
Now the same could be said of Buddhism, Hinduism etc. We will never have peace until we learn to respect each other and our belief systems.
Within the Christian faith we are always being subjected to criticism etc. however we simply ignore those.
Now you do speak of Islam being peaceful etc but how is it that one sect of Islam sends suicide bombers to kill members of the other sect including women and children. Please also respond to the atrocities that jester has mentioned. He has witnessed them. The Sunnis oppose the Shiites (sp).
Perhaps in this regard you might also explain 9/11. That was an uncalled for attack on many innocent folks, men women and children, who simply wanted to live and let live. In fact some of those killed were Muslims. One might argue that the Americans killed many innocent folks in their attacks in Iraq. Yes that is true. Muslims have done no differently. If the Americans are so bad then the Muslims have lowered themselves to the same level.
I have great respect for the Islam that I know and see here in Canada; those I know to be peaceful and simply want to live and let live. One must earn respect. It does not come because one is one thing or another. Respect begets respect.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Of course you do not have to respect his cursing your faith. On the other hand he does not have to respect Christianity being cursed either.
Could you please give me the Qur'an reference for killing someone because they have spoken ill of the Prophet or Allah.
You firmly believe that Islam is the true path. Many Christians believe that Christianity is the true path. It seems to me it is one thing to believe that one is right and the other is wrong but another to want to punish those who do not agree with them. Is God/Allah not capable of dealing with those whom He/She thinks needs to be dealt with? After all God/Allah is all powerful.
Now the same could be said of Buddhism, Hinduism etc. We will never have peace until we learn to respect each other and our belief systems.
Within the Christian faith we are always being subjected to criticism etc. however we simply ignore those.
Now you do speak of Islam being peaceful etc but how is it that one sect of Islam sends suicide bombers to kill members of the other sect including women and children. Please also respond to the atrocities that jester has mentioned. He has witnessed them. The Sunnis oppose the Shiites (sp).
Perhaps in this regard you might also explain 9/11. That was an uncalled for attack on many innocent folks, men women and children, who simply wanted to live and let live. In fact some of those killed were Muslims. One might argue that the Americans killed many innocent folks in their attacks in Iraq. Yes that is true. Muslims have done no differently. If the Americans are so bad then the Muslims have lowered themselves to the same level.
I have great respect for the Islam that I know and see here in Canada; those I know to be peaceful and simply want to live and let live. One must earn respect. It does not come because one is one thing or another. Respect begets respect.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
jester:-6
I haven't met a great many Muslims but I have met hundreds if not thousands of very questionable Christians. Let us not forget the likes of Phelps, Robertson, Falwell etc. Nor should we forget the crusades or the inquisition. No, no Christianity is no more pure than any other.
You claim some of these are not real Christians. It is interesting that the peaceful Muslims I've met also claim the same thing about those pushing violence.
One cannot tar all Muslims with the same brush anymore than one car tar all Christians with the same brush.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I haven't met a great many Muslims but I have met hundreds if not thousands of very questionable Christians. Let us not forget the likes of Phelps, Robertson, Falwell etc. Nor should we forget the crusades or the inquisition. No, no Christianity is no more pure than any other.
You claim some of these are not real Christians. It is interesting that the peaceful Muslims I've met also claim the same thing about those pushing violence.
One cannot tar all Muslims with the same brush anymore than one car tar all Christians with the same brush.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
jester:-6
The Canadian national organization of Muslims, by whatever name, have denounced terrorism.
Muslim scholars have denounced terrorism.
Since Muslim extremists seem to have no concern for human life the average Muslim would be foolish to make any loud statements. They may be subjected to some fatwa.
If anyone has not put themselves in touch with peaceful Muslims then one would be unaware of what has taken place. It becomes judgment based on a lack of knowledge. Yes, I do admit extremist terrorism in all of the great faiths including Christianity.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Canadian national organization of Muslims, by whatever name, have denounced terrorism.
Muslim scholars have denounced terrorism.
Since Muslim extremists seem to have no concern for human life the average Muslim would be foolish to make any loud statements. They may be subjected to some fatwa.
If anyone has not put themselves in touch with peaceful Muslims then one would be unaware of what has taken place. It becomes judgment based on a lack of knowledge. Yes, I do admit extremist terrorism in all of the great faiths including Christianity.
Shalom
Ted:-6
-
cloverleaf
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:39 pm
Proof of God
Ted;875849 wrote: Clover:-6
Of course you do not have to respect his cursing your faith. On the other hand he does not have to respect Christianity being cursed either.
Could you please give me the Qur'an reference for killing someone because they have spoken ill of the Prophet or Allah.
You firmly believe that Islam is the true path. Many Christians believe that Christianity is the true path. It seems to me it is one thing to believe that one is right and the other is wrong but another to want to punish those who do not agree with them. Is God/Allah not capable of dealing with those whom He/She thinks needs to be dealt with? After all God/Allah is all powerful.
Now the same could be said of Buddhism, Hinduism etc. We will never have peace until we learn to respect each other and our belief systems.
Within the Christian faith we are always being subjected to criticism etc. however we simply ignore those.
Now you do speak of Islam being peaceful etc but how is it that one sect of Islam sends suicide bombers to kill members of the other sect including women and children. Please also respond to the atrocities that jester has mentioned. He has witnessed them. The Sunnis oppose the Shiites (sp).
Perhaps in this regard you might also explain 9/11. That was an uncalled for attack on many innocent folks, men women and children, who simply wanted to live and let live. In fact some of those killed were Muslims. One might argue that the Americans killed many innocent folks in their attacks in Iraq. Yes that is true. Muslims have done no differently. If the Americans are so bad then the Muslims have lowered themselves to the same level.
I have great respect for the Islam that I know and see here in Canada; those I know to be peaceful and simply want to live and let live. One must earn respect. It does not come because one is one thing or another. Respect begets respect.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Honestly i cant give you the exact reference from the Quran about killing someone who says something stupid about Allah or prophet, but we are taught to defend Islam first with actions, then with our mouths or to ignore and walk away. Each one of these ways has its own rationale depending on the circumstances. We are told in Surah 86:17 to deal gently with disbelievers and give them timeto change their minds. But to be attacked for our beliefs does warrant retaliation, this is a good deed for us, to defend Allah and our fellow Muslims. We're not allowed to hurt our fellow Muslims because we know that Allah will punish them on the judgement day.
There can be only one truth about faith, but which one is right? Christians beleive in the same God but they say Jesus is God just because he did not have a father but Adam did not have a mother or father so was he a God too? Of course not! There can be only one God who created everything and is capable of doing anything.
God spoke to people in the past too thru Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad and there is much evidence in the Quran that shows Islam is the right and true faith.
You can even make people as suicide bombers if you can make them beleive its the right thing to do and that is not only in islam. Remember kamikazes, or the people in Guiana with Jim Jones?
american soldiers are killing innocent people in iraq because they are shooting everywhere in panic , it does not matter there are children women around
and when us airforces bomb small villages accidantly they say just OOPS
SORRY ! (huh?)
can you imagine how does it feel to lose your whole family members by a soldiers shooting who came from thousands of miles away.
I am Sunni beleiver this means we follow the Quran and follow the path of Mohammad, and try to live and do as he did. As far as I know, the Shiite's believe that the Quran is enough for them and do not follow the ways of Mohammad. But as you know, religious books ( the words of God) are not so easy to understand, and it takes Prophets or Masters to explain things. With out this help I believe it could be dangerous as it may cause them to lose their faith if they dont understand the Quran well. Unfortunately, Sunnis and Shiites kill each other (in Iraq) and in my opinion they are idiots
people kill people because of political reasons,
I dont have a problem with america or american people at all
but american politicians want people to kill each other for oil for power and so that america can sell more weapons. Remember iran/iraq war in 1980s ussr was supporting iraq usa was supporting iran they both were selling weapons to them to kill each other. crazy right?
I thought about 911 billion times like many people did. There is something that Americans don't see, they don't care about what's happening on the other side of the world like wars on the other side of the world seem like a fairy story to them because it seems too far. They can't feel what those people feel but they did in 9/11.
i just remembered what bin ladin said in those years...he said that if we won't feel safe, you (western countries) won't feel safe too. Do you feel safe since 911? Do you ever think the same could happen in Canada or wherever you least expect it? But don't get me wrong, I cant support killing innocent people. But I can understand why 9/11 happened.
Of course you do not have to respect his cursing your faith. On the other hand he does not have to respect Christianity being cursed either.
Could you please give me the Qur'an reference for killing someone because they have spoken ill of the Prophet or Allah.
You firmly believe that Islam is the true path. Many Christians believe that Christianity is the true path. It seems to me it is one thing to believe that one is right and the other is wrong but another to want to punish those who do not agree with them. Is God/Allah not capable of dealing with those whom He/She thinks needs to be dealt with? After all God/Allah is all powerful.
Now the same could be said of Buddhism, Hinduism etc. We will never have peace until we learn to respect each other and our belief systems.
Within the Christian faith we are always being subjected to criticism etc. however we simply ignore those.
Now you do speak of Islam being peaceful etc but how is it that one sect of Islam sends suicide bombers to kill members of the other sect including women and children. Please also respond to the atrocities that jester has mentioned. He has witnessed them. The Sunnis oppose the Shiites (sp).
Perhaps in this regard you might also explain 9/11. That was an uncalled for attack on many innocent folks, men women and children, who simply wanted to live and let live. In fact some of those killed were Muslims. One might argue that the Americans killed many innocent folks in their attacks in Iraq. Yes that is true. Muslims have done no differently. If the Americans are so bad then the Muslims have lowered themselves to the same level.
I have great respect for the Islam that I know and see here in Canada; those I know to be peaceful and simply want to live and let live. One must earn respect. It does not come because one is one thing or another. Respect begets respect.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Honestly i cant give you the exact reference from the Quran about killing someone who says something stupid about Allah or prophet, but we are taught to defend Islam first with actions, then with our mouths or to ignore and walk away. Each one of these ways has its own rationale depending on the circumstances. We are told in Surah 86:17 to deal gently with disbelievers and give them timeto change their minds. But to be attacked for our beliefs does warrant retaliation, this is a good deed for us, to defend Allah and our fellow Muslims. We're not allowed to hurt our fellow Muslims because we know that Allah will punish them on the judgement day.
There can be only one truth about faith, but which one is right? Christians beleive in the same God but they say Jesus is God just because he did not have a father but Adam did not have a mother or father so was he a God too? Of course not! There can be only one God who created everything and is capable of doing anything.
God spoke to people in the past too thru Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad and there is much evidence in the Quran that shows Islam is the right and true faith.
You can even make people as suicide bombers if you can make them beleive its the right thing to do and that is not only in islam. Remember kamikazes, or the people in Guiana with Jim Jones?
american soldiers are killing innocent people in iraq because they are shooting everywhere in panic , it does not matter there are children women around
and when us airforces bomb small villages accidantly they say just OOPS
SORRY ! (huh?)
can you imagine how does it feel to lose your whole family members by a soldiers shooting who came from thousands of miles away.
I am Sunni beleiver this means we follow the Quran and follow the path of Mohammad, and try to live and do as he did. As far as I know, the Shiite's believe that the Quran is enough for them and do not follow the ways of Mohammad. But as you know, religious books ( the words of God) are not so easy to understand, and it takes Prophets or Masters to explain things. With out this help I believe it could be dangerous as it may cause them to lose their faith if they dont understand the Quran well. Unfortunately, Sunnis and Shiites kill each other (in Iraq) and in my opinion they are idiots
people kill people because of political reasons,
I dont have a problem with america or american people at all
but american politicians want people to kill each other for oil for power and so that america can sell more weapons. Remember iran/iraq war in 1980s ussr was supporting iraq usa was supporting iran they both were selling weapons to them to kill each other. crazy right?
I thought about 911 billion times like many people did. There is something that Americans don't see, they don't care about what's happening on the other side of the world like wars on the other side of the world seem like a fairy story to them because it seems too far. They can't feel what those people feel but they did in 9/11.
i just remembered what bin ladin said in those years...he said that if we won't feel safe, you (western countries) won't feel safe too. Do you feel safe since 911? Do you ever think the same could happen in Canada or wherever you least expect it? But don't get me wrong, I cant support killing innocent people. But I can understand why 9/11 happened.
Proof of God
Clover:-6
Thanks for your response.
I am one who believes that Allah/God has spoken to all people in a way they could best understand. Culture, history, language and knowledge background all influence this. Thus I accept the validity of all of the world's great faiths. I also accept on the basis of research that all the faiths began around the two basic tenets of justice and compassion.
I fail to see how retaliatory killing other than in self defense demonstrates either justice or compassion.
In my copy of the Holy Qur'an, without looking it up again for the reference, it says that Muslims are only to attack others when they have been attacked first so the present conditions puzzle me greatly. Perhaps you could find out for me where it comments on the killing of folks for making stupid comments.
Personally I have no problem with the Islamic view of Mohammad (blessed be He).
I must question your comments on those who need time to convert. In my reading of the Holy Qur'an these people are to be left alone provided they do not raid the faith of Islam for converts. Is there not a realization that there are many faiths around the world and that not all will accept Islam as the only way?
To comment further on that last point there are those in Christianity who believe in seeking such conversions to Christianity. There are also those of us who view things differently and do not seek to make converts. On the other hand we do not punish those who do convert to Islam nor do we seek to hurt them. Is it true that Muslim can be punished for converting to Christianity? If this is true then how does this it in with a loving Allah/God or the basic tenets of justice (distributive) and compassion?
Violence was not part of the main thinking of the early roots of the great faiths. How is it that we have moved towards hatred and conflict. In the early days of Islam the mosque on the Temple Mount was shared by the Muslims with the Jews. When I heard that I was both amazed and pleased. In history Mohammad (blessed by He) did not talk of war but he was forced into it for his very survival. This I understand.
I am a member of an interfaith organization and have had talks from Muslims who decry any violence.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Thanks for your response.
I am one who believes that Allah/God has spoken to all people in a way they could best understand. Culture, history, language and knowledge background all influence this. Thus I accept the validity of all of the world's great faiths. I also accept on the basis of research that all the faiths began around the two basic tenets of justice and compassion.
I fail to see how retaliatory killing other than in self defense demonstrates either justice or compassion.
In my copy of the Holy Qur'an, without looking it up again for the reference, it says that Muslims are only to attack others when they have been attacked first so the present conditions puzzle me greatly. Perhaps you could find out for me where it comments on the killing of folks for making stupid comments.
Personally I have no problem with the Islamic view of Mohammad (blessed be He).
I must question your comments on those who need time to convert. In my reading of the Holy Qur'an these people are to be left alone provided they do not raid the faith of Islam for converts. Is there not a realization that there are many faiths around the world and that not all will accept Islam as the only way?
To comment further on that last point there are those in Christianity who believe in seeking such conversions to Christianity. There are also those of us who view things differently and do not seek to make converts. On the other hand we do not punish those who do convert to Islam nor do we seek to hurt them. Is it true that Muslim can be punished for converting to Christianity? If this is true then how does this it in with a loving Allah/God or the basic tenets of justice (distributive) and compassion?
Violence was not part of the main thinking of the early roots of the great faiths. How is it that we have moved towards hatred and conflict. In the early days of Islam the mosque on the Temple Mount was shared by the Muslims with the Jews. When I heard that I was both amazed and pleased. In history Mohammad (blessed by He) did not talk of war but he was forced into it for his very survival. This I understand.
I am a member of an interfaith organization and have had talks from Muslims who decry any violence.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
Clover:-6
I am a Christian pluralist. I am not a Muslim or Buddhist etc. I firmly believe that Allah/God/The Great Spirit etc. speaks to us through the many great faiths. I am happy as I am and have no intentions of converting to anything else. I also recognize the vast wisdom to be found in all of the great faiths. I seek only peace and a world where we have unity in our diversity. It can be done, I believe.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I am a Christian pluralist. I am not a Muslim or Buddhist etc. I firmly believe that Allah/God/The Great Spirit etc. speaks to us through the many great faiths. I am happy as I am and have no intentions of converting to anything else. I also recognize the vast wisdom to be found in all of the great faiths. I seek only peace and a world where we have unity in our diversity. It can be done, I believe.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
So now we understand Islam???
Let us now look at some American history. Who put the Taliban in power? Who put Saddam in power? Who propped up the thug Batista a dictator of the right but promoted the end of Castro a dictator of the left? Who put Noriega in power? Who propped up Pinochet or Marcos? America speaks with a forked tongue. A dictator of the right is ok but a dictator of the left is not ok. Then they speak of democracy!!!
Why did the US go into Iraq? The excuse was WMD and Saddam, the one they put in power. The real reason was and is oil. The same holds true for Afghanistan. Nice route for a pipeline.
Why is the US not in Darfur or Kenya? No oil for a start.
There are some American scholars who now refer to the US as the new Roman Empire which Jesus strongly opposed. Jesus message was peace through justice whereas Roman imperial theology was peace through victory. The latter has never worked throughout history.
Bill Gates once suggested to Bush he take a look at why terrorism arose which might give some insights as to how to solve the problem peacefully but Bush has refused. I wonder why.
It is OK for the US to have nuclear weapons but no one on the opposing side is allowed to have them.
It is all about power, oil and money. It is not at all about religion.
I guess the one thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. Are we condemned to continue to repeat the mistakes of the past? Perhaps is the US kept its nose out of other peoples' business others would do the same.
Shalom
Ted
Let us now look at some American history. Who put the Taliban in power? Who put Saddam in power? Who propped up the thug Batista a dictator of the right but promoted the end of Castro a dictator of the left? Who put Noriega in power? Who propped up Pinochet or Marcos? America speaks with a forked tongue. A dictator of the right is ok but a dictator of the left is not ok. Then they speak of democracy!!!
Why did the US go into Iraq? The excuse was WMD and Saddam, the one they put in power. The real reason was and is oil. The same holds true for Afghanistan. Nice route for a pipeline.
Why is the US not in Darfur or Kenya? No oil for a start.
There are some American scholars who now refer to the US as the new Roman Empire which Jesus strongly opposed. Jesus message was peace through justice whereas Roman imperial theology was peace through victory. The latter has never worked throughout history.
Bill Gates once suggested to Bush he take a look at why terrorism arose which might give some insights as to how to solve the problem peacefully but Bush has refused. I wonder why.
It is OK for the US to have nuclear weapons but no one on the opposing side is allowed to have them.
It is all about power, oil and money. It is not at all about religion.
I guess the one thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. Are we condemned to continue to repeat the mistakes of the past? Perhaps is the US kept its nose out of other peoples' business others would do the same.
Shalom
Ted
Proof of God
I am not anti-American any more than I oppose hypocrisy anywhere else. Both sides have much to answer for as does my own country.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
Ted;876702 wrote: So now we understand Islam???
Let us now look at some American history. Who put the Taliban in power? Who put Saddam in power? Who propped up the thug Batista a dictator of the right but promoted the end of Castro a dictator of the left? Who put Noriega in power? Who propped up Pinochet or Marcos? America speaks with a forked tongue. A dictator of the right is ok but a dictator of the left is not ok. Then they speak of democracy!!!
Why did the US go into Iraq? The excuse was WMD and Saddam, the one they put in power. The real reason was and is oil. The same holds true for Afghanistan. Nice route for a pipeline.
Why is the US not in Darfur or Kenya? No oil for a start.
There are some American scholars who now refer to the US as the new Roman Empire which Jesus strongly opposed. Jesus message was peace through justice whereas Roman imperial theology was peace through victory. The latter has never worked throughout history.
Bill Gates once suggested to Bush he take a look at why terrorism arose which might give some insights as to how to solve the problem peacefully but Bush has refused. I wonder why.
It is OK for the US to have nuclear weapons but no one on the opposing side is allowed to have them.
It is all about power, oil and money. It is not at all about religion.
I guess the one thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. Are we condemned to continue to repeat the mistakes of the past? Perhaps is the US kept its nose out of other peoples' business others would do the same.
Shalom
Ted
Excellent points Ted - might explain why there's so few takers.
Let us now look at some American history. Who put the Taliban in power? Who put Saddam in power? Who propped up the thug Batista a dictator of the right but promoted the end of Castro a dictator of the left? Who put Noriega in power? Who propped up Pinochet or Marcos? America speaks with a forked tongue. A dictator of the right is ok but a dictator of the left is not ok. Then they speak of democracy!!!
Why did the US go into Iraq? The excuse was WMD and Saddam, the one they put in power. The real reason was and is oil. The same holds true for Afghanistan. Nice route for a pipeline.
Why is the US not in Darfur or Kenya? No oil for a start.
There are some American scholars who now refer to the US as the new Roman Empire which Jesus strongly opposed. Jesus message was peace through justice whereas Roman imperial theology was peace through victory. The latter has never worked throughout history.
Bill Gates once suggested to Bush he take a look at why terrorism arose which might give some insights as to how to solve the problem peacefully but Bush has refused. I wonder why.
It is OK for the US to have nuclear weapons but no one on the opposing side is allowed to have them.
It is all about power, oil and money. It is not at all about religion.
I guess the one thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. Are we condemned to continue to repeat the mistakes of the past? Perhaps is the US kept its nose out of other peoples' business others would do the same.
Shalom
Ted
Excellent points Ted - might explain why there's so few takers.
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cloverleaf
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:39 pm
Proof of God
:-3Ted;875925 wrote: Clover:-6
Thanks for your response.
I am one who believes that Allah/God has spoken to all people in a way they could best understand. Culture, history, language and knowledge background all influence this. Thus I accept the validity of all of the world's great faiths. I also accept on the basis of research that all the faiths began around the two basic tenets of justice and compassion.
I fail to see how retaliatory killing other than in self defense demonstrates either justice or compassion.
To answer this, let me give an example or two: First, if someone were to kill your father, would you want to kill him? If you answered 'yes', this is a retaliatory action. In Islamic law, if this happens, the offender would go to court and if found guilty, the court would ask the victim's family do they want an 'eye for an eye'? The family can say yes or no. It behoves them, in Islam, to forgive or have mercy on the offender, even though he killed a loved one. Why? Because if you have no mercy how can you expect Allah to have mercy for you? But Islam allows for an eye for an eye for some cases. Would you be satisfied to have the offender go free? or spend the rest of his life in a jail? Maybe or maybe not. Allah in His wisdom knows humans and allows them to make decisions, even though they may not be good for them. It is better for a Muslim to forgive, to have compassion, but this is not always possible for humans.
Another example: When 9/11 happened, many Americans wanted to immediately bomb all Muslim countries. Their passion and anger was so strong. They wanted an eye for an eye. So what makes people think that Muslims who are being killed wouldn't want to same. They want to protect themselves and retaliate to their enemies. Normal human behavior.In my copy of the Holy Qur'an, without looking it up again for the reference, it says that Muslims are only to attack others when they have been attacked first so the present conditions puzzle me greatly. Perhaps you could find out for me where it comments on the killing of folks for making stupid comments.
Ted: I am sorry for the confusion. I think I did not explain well. Let me try again. Islam does not condone killing people for speaking against it as far as I know. My response was simply a passionate one, as I am a good believer and do take offense when people speak against Prophet Mohammad or Allah. I feel like I want to kill them because they hurt me and my religion with their words. Islam does not condone this, but I am a human and am weak as such. Imagine someone were to insult your wife, mother sister, father, or other loved ones? Would you just take it or would you want to fight back? Fight back I am sure. In fact many movies make light of just such situations. So my reactions are normal. I feel for my Prophet/GOD/Religion like that. I love them. So when one makes stupid ignorant comments about them, I DO take offense. I hope I have cleared that up.
Personally I have no problem with the Islamic view of Mohammad (blessed be He).
I must question your comments on those who need time to convert. In my reading of the Holy Qur'an these people are to be left alone provided they do not raid the faith of Islam for converts. Is there not a realization that there are many faiths around the world and that not all will accept Islam as the only way?
What I meant is that people will either convert or not, they should not be forced as there is no compulsion in Islam. So you talk to them about Islam, make suggestions about converting and see what happens. Allah knows best who will convert or not.
To comment further on that last point there are those in Christianity who believe in seeking such conversions to Christianity. There are also those of us who view things differently and do not seek to make converts. On the other hand we do not punish those who do convert to Islam nor do we seek to hurt them. Is it true that Muslim can be punished for converting to Christianity? If this is true then how does this it in with a loving Allah/God or the basic tenets of justice (distributive) and compassion?
I have heard this as well and I am sorry to say I do not know everything about Islam or its punishments. If this is true, there must be a reason for it, but what that reason is I don't know.
Violence was not part of the main thinking of the early roots of the great faiths. How is it that we have moved towards hatred and conflict. In the early days of Islam the mosque on the Temple Mount was shared by the Muslims with the Jews. When I heard that I was both amazed and pleased. In history Mohammad (blessed by He) did not talk of war but he was forced into it for his very survival. This I understand.
Lets look at it this way. There are many differents faiths in Christanity, Methodists, Catholic, Protestants, etc. They are even fighting amonst themselves and drawing blood. Look at Ireland. So why does it surprise you that this happens in Islam? Every sect thinks it is on the right path and some, unfortunately fight with other opposing sects. This does not mean this is acceptable by Allah. It simply is what it is, two 'nations' waring with each other over who is right, be it Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. They fight with each other and amongst their own. No one prefers this, least of all Muslims. It is an unfortunate reality of life. We all wish it would stop and there be peace.
I am a member of an interfaith organization and have had talks from Muslims who decry any violence.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Thanks for your response.
I am one who believes that Allah/God has spoken to all people in a way they could best understand. Culture, history, language and knowledge background all influence this. Thus I accept the validity of all of the world's great faiths. I also accept on the basis of research that all the faiths began around the two basic tenets of justice and compassion.
I fail to see how retaliatory killing other than in self defense demonstrates either justice or compassion.
To answer this, let me give an example or two: First, if someone were to kill your father, would you want to kill him? If you answered 'yes', this is a retaliatory action. In Islamic law, if this happens, the offender would go to court and if found guilty, the court would ask the victim's family do they want an 'eye for an eye'? The family can say yes or no. It behoves them, in Islam, to forgive or have mercy on the offender, even though he killed a loved one. Why? Because if you have no mercy how can you expect Allah to have mercy for you? But Islam allows for an eye for an eye for some cases. Would you be satisfied to have the offender go free? or spend the rest of his life in a jail? Maybe or maybe not. Allah in His wisdom knows humans and allows them to make decisions, even though they may not be good for them. It is better for a Muslim to forgive, to have compassion, but this is not always possible for humans.
Another example: When 9/11 happened, many Americans wanted to immediately bomb all Muslim countries. Their passion and anger was so strong. They wanted an eye for an eye. So what makes people think that Muslims who are being killed wouldn't want to same. They want to protect themselves and retaliate to their enemies. Normal human behavior.In my copy of the Holy Qur'an, without looking it up again for the reference, it says that Muslims are only to attack others when they have been attacked first so the present conditions puzzle me greatly. Perhaps you could find out for me where it comments on the killing of folks for making stupid comments.
Ted: I am sorry for the confusion. I think I did not explain well. Let me try again. Islam does not condone killing people for speaking against it as far as I know. My response was simply a passionate one, as I am a good believer and do take offense when people speak against Prophet Mohammad or Allah. I feel like I want to kill them because they hurt me and my religion with their words. Islam does not condone this, but I am a human and am weak as such. Imagine someone were to insult your wife, mother sister, father, or other loved ones? Would you just take it or would you want to fight back? Fight back I am sure. In fact many movies make light of just such situations. So my reactions are normal. I feel for my Prophet/GOD/Religion like that. I love them. So when one makes stupid ignorant comments about them, I DO take offense. I hope I have cleared that up.
Personally I have no problem with the Islamic view of Mohammad (blessed be He).
I must question your comments on those who need time to convert. In my reading of the Holy Qur'an these people are to be left alone provided they do not raid the faith of Islam for converts. Is there not a realization that there are many faiths around the world and that not all will accept Islam as the only way?
What I meant is that people will either convert or not, they should not be forced as there is no compulsion in Islam. So you talk to them about Islam, make suggestions about converting and see what happens. Allah knows best who will convert or not.
To comment further on that last point there are those in Christianity who believe in seeking such conversions to Christianity. There are also those of us who view things differently and do not seek to make converts. On the other hand we do not punish those who do convert to Islam nor do we seek to hurt them. Is it true that Muslim can be punished for converting to Christianity? If this is true then how does this it in with a loving Allah/God or the basic tenets of justice (distributive) and compassion?
I have heard this as well and I am sorry to say I do not know everything about Islam or its punishments. If this is true, there must be a reason for it, but what that reason is I don't know.
Violence was not part of the main thinking of the early roots of the great faiths. How is it that we have moved towards hatred and conflict. In the early days of Islam the mosque on the Temple Mount was shared by the Muslims with the Jews. When I heard that I was both amazed and pleased. In history Mohammad (blessed by He) did not talk of war but he was forced into it for his very survival. This I understand.
Lets look at it this way. There are many differents faiths in Christanity, Methodists, Catholic, Protestants, etc. They are even fighting amonst themselves and drawing blood. Look at Ireland. So why does it surprise you that this happens in Islam? Every sect thinks it is on the right path and some, unfortunately fight with other opposing sects. This does not mean this is acceptable by Allah. It simply is what it is, two 'nations' waring with each other over who is right, be it Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc. They fight with each other and amongst their own. No one prefers this, least of all Muslims. It is an unfortunate reality of life. We all wish it would stop and there be peace.
I am a member of an interfaith organization and have had talks from Muslims who decry any violence.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
Clover:-6
Once again thank you for the courteous response.
You are absolutely correct about the schisms within Christianity. They too shed blood. None of this represents the teachings of Jesus. Jesus clearly denounced this kind of approach in Matt. 5. Those who follow the road of violence except in self defense do not represent the teachings of Jesus. They represent a bastardized form of the Christian faith.
The extremists have usurped the name of the religion they follow in order to promote their own desires.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Once again thank you for the courteous response.
You are absolutely correct about the schisms within Christianity. They too shed blood. None of this represents the teachings of Jesus. Jesus clearly denounced this kind of approach in Matt. 5. Those who follow the road of violence except in self defense do not represent the teachings of Jesus. They represent a bastardized form of the Christian faith.
The extremists have usurped the name of the religion they follow in order to promote their own desires.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
Bryn Mawr:-6
So it would seem.
I was just thinking the way the US installed Saddam in power is akin to the way Rome installed Herod in power. It is called "empire".
Now that Scott McClellan has spoken up he is a left wing radical. What interesting excuses coming out of the White House now. Just on the news.
Shalom
Ted:-6
So it would seem.
I was just thinking the way the US installed Saddam in power is akin to the way Rome installed Herod in power. It is called "empire".
Now that Scott McClellan has spoken up he is a left wing radical. What interesting excuses coming out of the White House now. Just on the news.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
Ted;876850 wrote: Bryn Mawr:-6
So it would seem.
I was just thinking the way the US installed Saddam in power is akin to the way Rome installed Herod in power. It is called "empire".
Now that Scott McClellan has spoken up he is a left wing radical. What interesting excuses coming out of the White House now. Just on the news.
Shalom
Ted:-6
And they never noticed during his security checks or whilst he was swanning round with GWB? It will be hilarious to watch them try to wriggle out of this one :wah:
So it would seem.
I was just thinking the way the US installed Saddam in power is akin to the way Rome installed Herod in power. It is called "empire".
Now that Scott McClellan has spoken up he is a left wing radical. What interesting excuses coming out of the White House now. Just on the news.
Shalom
Ted:-6
And they never noticed during his security checks or whilst he was swanning round with GWB? It will be hilarious to watch them try to wriggle out of this one :wah:
Proof of God
Ted;876702 wrote: So now we understand Islam???
Let us now look at some American history. Who put the Taliban in power? Who put Saddam in power? Who propped up the thug Batista a dictator of the right but promoted the end of Castro a dictator of the left? Who put Noriega in power? Who propped up Pinochet or Marcos? America speaks with a forked tongue. A dictator of the right is ok but a dictator of the left is not ok. Then they speak of democracy!!!
Why did the US go into Iraq? The excuse was WMD and Saddam, the one they put in power. The real reason was and is oil. The same holds true for Afghanistan. Nice route for a pipeline.
Why is the US not in Darfur or Kenya? No oil for a start.
There are some American scholars who now refer to the US as the new Roman Empire which Jesus strongly opposed. Jesus message was peace through justice whereas Roman imperial theology was peace through victory. The latter has never worked throughout history.
Bill Gates once suggested to Bush he take a look at why terrorism arose which might give some insights as to how to solve the problem peacefully but Bush has refused. I wonder why.
It is OK for the US to have nuclear weapons but no one on the opposing side is allowed to have them.
It is all about power, oil and money. It is not at all about religion.
I guess the one thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. Are we condemned to continue to repeat the mistakes of the past? Perhaps is the US kept its nose out of other peoples' business others would do the same.
Shalom
Ted
Good points-away to lie down till I get over the shock of agreeing with you.
Let's assume for a moment god doesn't exist. Christianity and islam are minor religious cults tolerated by a secular society. Would there be any conflict in the middle east?
Let us now look at some American history. Who put the Taliban in power? Who put Saddam in power? Who propped up the thug Batista a dictator of the right but promoted the end of Castro a dictator of the left? Who put Noriega in power? Who propped up Pinochet or Marcos? America speaks with a forked tongue. A dictator of the right is ok but a dictator of the left is not ok. Then they speak of democracy!!!
Why did the US go into Iraq? The excuse was WMD and Saddam, the one they put in power. The real reason was and is oil. The same holds true for Afghanistan. Nice route for a pipeline.
Why is the US not in Darfur or Kenya? No oil for a start.
There are some American scholars who now refer to the US as the new Roman Empire which Jesus strongly opposed. Jesus message was peace through justice whereas Roman imperial theology was peace through victory. The latter has never worked throughout history.
Bill Gates once suggested to Bush he take a look at why terrorism arose which might give some insights as to how to solve the problem peacefully but Bush has refused. I wonder why.
It is OK for the US to have nuclear weapons but no one on the opposing side is allowed to have them.
It is all about power, oil and money. It is not at all about religion.
I guess the one thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. Are we condemned to continue to repeat the mistakes of the past? Perhaps is the US kept its nose out of other peoples' business others would do the same.
Shalom
Ted
Good points-away to lie down till I get over the shock of agreeing with you.
Let's assume for a moment god doesn't exist. Christianity and islam are minor religious cults tolerated by a secular society. Would there be any conflict in the middle east?
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cloverleaf
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:39 pm
Proof of God
gmc;876906 wrote: Good points-away to lie down till I get over the shock of agreeing with you.
Let's assume for a moment god doesn't exist. Christianity and islam are minor religious cults tolerated by a secular society. Would there be any conflict in the middle east?
I should tell that secular system is stupid and people who beleives in religion like christianity or islam can not support secularism or cant be in those religions.
if there was no God (100% impossible state) there would be religions again different way like budhism etc.. but it does not matter the matter is material
there will be conflict as long as there is no endless goods in the world.
Let's assume for a moment god doesn't exist. Christianity and islam are minor religious cults tolerated by a secular society. Would there be any conflict in the middle east?
I should tell that secular system is stupid and people who beleives in religion like christianity or islam can not support secularism or cant be in those religions.
if there was no God (100% impossible state) there would be religions again different way like budhism etc.. but it does not matter the matter is material
there will be conflict as long as there is no endless goods in the world.
Proof of God
gmc:-6
Sorry to rattle you like that. Hope you had a good rest to get over the shock. LOL
Actually I think there would still be conflict in the middle east. Religion is only the excuse and not the real basis of the conflict. The conflict is about money and power.
I learned something else interesting on Thursday. During the fiasco in south east Asia Laos was the third largest producer of opium in the world. The American Govt. promoted the growing and selling of opium in order to get more money to fight the communists. What else can I say. Sad, sad, sad.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Sorry to rattle you like that. Hope you had a good rest to get over the shock. LOL
Actually I think there would still be conflict in the middle east. Religion is only the excuse and not the real basis of the conflict. The conflict is about money and power.
I learned something else interesting on Thursday. During the fiasco in south east Asia Laos was the third largest producer of opium in the world. The American Govt. promoted the growing and selling of opium in order to get more money to fight the communists. What else can I say. Sad, sad, sad.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
Clover:-6
I see nothing wrong with the secular society. The world is full of people who do not have a religious faith. They also deserve the right to their beliefs without fear of persecution. If God had a problem with that, being almighty, He/She could deal with it in an instant could He/She not?
Shalom
Ted:-6
I see nothing wrong with the secular society. The world is full of people who do not have a religious faith. They also deserve the right to their beliefs without fear of persecution. If God had a problem with that, being almighty, He/She could deal with it in an instant could He/She not?
Shalom
Ted:-6
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cloverleaf
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:39 pm
Proof of God
Ted;878451 wrote: Clover:-6
I see nothing wrong with the secular society.
yes there are many people who dont have religion but they want us to live in their system (democracy etc..) we can do things as much as they let us to do
in islamic countries they let people live in frame of islam and if i beleive in islam i should support this right?
The world is full of people who do not have a religious faith. They also deserve the right to their beliefs without fear of persecution.
some rules according to islam may look persecution for secular society but not to me.
and there are things in secular society that are persecution
If God had a problem with that, being almighty, He/She could deal with it in an instant could He/She not?
i dont understand by saying God deals with it ? but i can tell you that there is time for everything
Shalom
Ted:-6
i dont know did i answered your questions?
I see nothing wrong with the secular society.
yes there are many people who dont have religion but they want us to live in their system (democracy etc..) we can do things as much as they let us to do
in islamic countries they let people live in frame of islam and if i beleive in islam i should support this right?
The world is full of people who do not have a religious faith. They also deserve the right to their beliefs without fear of persecution.
some rules according to islam may look persecution for secular society but not to me.
and there are things in secular society that are persecution
If God had a problem with that, being almighty, He/She could deal with it in an instant could He/She not?
i dont understand by saying God deals with it ? but i can tell you that there is time for everything
Shalom
Ted:-6
i dont know did i answered your questions?
Proof of God
Clover:-6
Everyone is allowed to their opinion even if it is a criticism of others. Everyone, including Muslims are entitled to their opinion. No one is entitled to take the life of another except in self defense.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Everyone is allowed to their opinion even if it is a criticism of others. Everyone, including Muslims are entitled to their opinion. No one is entitled to take the life of another except in self defense.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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cloverleaf
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:39 pm
Proof of God
Ted;879099 wrote: Clover:-6
Everyone is allowed to their opinion even if it is a criticism of others. Everyone, including Muslims are entitled to their opinion. No one is entitled to take the life of another except in self defense.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I agreed
Everyone is allowed to their opinion even if it is a criticism of others. Everyone, including Muslims are entitled to their opinion. No one is entitled to take the life of another except in self defense.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I agreed
Proof of God
gmc;876906 wrote: Good points-away to lie down till I get over the shock of agreeing with you.
Let's assume for a moment god doesn't exist. Christianity and islam are minor religious cults tolerated by a secular society. Would there be any conflict in the middle east?
I believe that there would - the basis for the conflict is who gets control of the necessities of life (land, water, etc), not who's interpretation of Abraham's God is the most accurate.
Let's assume for a moment god doesn't exist. Christianity and islam are minor religious cults tolerated by a secular society. Would there be any conflict in the middle east?
I believe that there would - the basis for the conflict is who gets control of the necessities of life (land, water, etc), not who's interpretation of Abraham's God is the most accurate.
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cloverleaf
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:39 pm
Proof of God
There is no God but Allah and Mohammad is the messenger of Allah !
Proof of God
On the issue of only one God I can agree with Clover. Some call the Divine God, some the Great Spirit, some Allah etc. That others' concepts of God may vary from culture to culture does not mean they are worshiping a different God. On the contrary it shows that God has spoken to many people around the world in a way they can best grasp Him/Her. The OT does say "Hear of Israel the Lord our God is one". That is precisely what the Muslims have been saying.
Since all that we can see of God on earth are His/Her activities and since we cannot as mere humans grasp the essence of God no one can be sure to have the correct interpretation. In fact it is doubtful that anyone does.
The "my God is bigger and better than your God" is a rather silly approach. It is time for all believers to "get over it".
Shalom
Ted:-6
Since all that we can see of God on earth are His/Her activities and since we cannot as mere humans grasp the essence of God no one can be sure to have the correct interpretation. In fact it is doubtful that anyone does.
The "my God is bigger and better than your God" is a rather silly approach. It is time for all believers to "get over it".
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
I most certainly will not argue that Muhammad is or is not a prophet. God knows and that is all that matters. I have great respect for this ancient man.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Shalom
Ted:-6
Proof of God
Jester;879604 wrote: I don't respect thugs and liars, muhammad was both, and he perpetrated a lie that man has used to murder millions of innocent people up to this presnt day and I see no end to it in th enear future.
If you have respect for him then your condoning murder.
And you are surprised that Muslims find what you say offensive?
You are out of order Jester.
If you have respect for him then your condoning murder.
And you are surprised that Muslims find what you say offensive?
You are out of order Jester.
Proof of God
cloverleaf;877616 wrote: I should tell that secular system is stupid and people who beleives in religion like christianity or islam can not support secularism or cant be in those religions.
if there was no God (100% impossible state) there would be religions again different way like budhism etc.. but it does not matter the matter is material
there will be conflict as long as there is no endless goods in the world.
In a secular society you are free to worship any way you wish just so long as you respect the choice of others not to believe in imaginary friends- or if they do worship in a different way and don't try an force others to believe as you do. Funny how both islam and Christianity advocate tolerance and understanding but that bit doesn't have the same appeal as the destroy destroy bits.
Your kind of attitude will never win and you will probably never understand why. I feel the same way about christian extremists. I can tolerate yourself, ted , jester all of whom I have very different views from, indeed we have fun disagreeing amicably well aware we won't change the other's opinion.
With yourself, i don't know whether english is a second language and your unfamiliarity makes your words more violent than they intend to be or whether you want a religious war to start. Maybe it's a cultural thing,
I'm glad I'm not religious it means I get to have friends from all walks of life and religion.
As to proof of god? If you and jester are an example of what he wants from his followers (fight amongst yourselves to decide who is right) if he does exist he's a capricious vindictive old git. Either that or his creation must be a bit disappointing.
either way I am increasingly of the opinion that he doesn't exist and even more hoping he doesn't cos who needs the aggro.
If warfare and hate in the name of religion are proof of god he's real all right.
if there was no God (100% impossible state) there would be religions again different way like budhism etc.. but it does not matter the matter is material
there will be conflict as long as there is no endless goods in the world.
In a secular society you are free to worship any way you wish just so long as you respect the choice of others not to believe in imaginary friends- or if they do worship in a different way and don't try an force others to believe as you do. Funny how both islam and Christianity advocate tolerance and understanding but that bit doesn't have the same appeal as the destroy destroy bits.
Your kind of attitude will never win and you will probably never understand why. I feel the same way about christian extremists. I can tolerate yourself, ted , jester all of whom I have very different views from, indeed we have fun disagreeing amicably well aware we won't change the other's opinion.
With yourself, i don't know whether english is a second language and your unfamiliarity makes your words more violent than they intend to be or whether you want a religious war to start. Maybe it's a cultural thing,
I'm glad I'm not religious it means I get to have friends from all walks of life and religion.
As to proof of god? If you and jester are an example of what he wants from his followers (fight amongst yourselves to decide who is right) if he does exist he's a capricious vindictive old git. Either that or his creation must be a bit disappointing.
either way I am increasingly of the opinion that he doesn't exist and even more hoping he doesn't cos who needs the aggro.
If warfare and hate in the name of religion are proof of god he's real all right.
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Omni_Skittles
- Posts: 2613
- Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:10 am
Proof of God
BHughesNC;847921 wrote: This is a pretty simple question for those who do not believe in God. Can you name an event or situation that would prove to you beyond a doubt that God is real?
Bobbymy life. Geeze the fact that i am in college! The fact that i have been through things in my life and survived and i'm not talking about breaking a nail. Just some things i know without a shadow of a doubt. and i believe the Bible is proof for it. so chyea...
Bobbymy life. Geeze the fact that i am in college! The fact that i have been through things in my life and survived and i'm not talking about breaking a nail. Just some things i know without a shadow of a doubt. and i believe the Bible is proof for it. so chyea...
Smoke signals ftw!
Proof of God
Jester;879731 wrote: I suppose I am slightly inflammatory, but we are in the religious section discussing the subject at hand, so let me rephrase and be a bit more PC about it.
I can not respect an alleged religious man like muhammad, whos life was marked with violence and whos teachings allow for perpetual violence and who took the teachings of other religious groups and twisted them to suit his own desires.
Not slightly inflammatory, abusive and offensive.
I can not respect an alleged religious man like muhammad, whos life was marked with violence and whos teachings allow for perpetual violence and who took the teachings of other religious groups and twisted them to suit his own desires.
Not slightly inflammatory, abusive and offensive.
Proof of God
Jester;880127 wrote: Yeah but hows my re-write?
Toned down enough to only be totally biased and one sided :wah:
BTW - do you not consider that Jesus and the prophets "took the teachings of other religious groups and twisted them to suit his own desires"?
Toned down enough to only be totally biased and one sided :wah:
BTW - do you not consider that Jesus and the prophets "took the teachings of other religious groups and twisted them to suit his own desires"?
Proof of God
Jester;880260 wrote: Good, I do find it to be extemely difficult to be both honest and pc at the same time.
No I consider that Jesus and the Prophets of the bible to be gospel, the only way.
If you look, you'll find that some of the exact same stories were part of the religious heritage of previous societies - they were borrowings not unique to Christianity or even Judaism.
No I consider that Jesus and the Prophets of the bible to be gospel, the only way.
If you look, you'll find that some of the exact same stories were part of the religious heritage of previous societies - they were borrowings not unique to Christianity or even Judaism.
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cloverleaf
- Posts: 59
- Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:39 pm
Proof of God
JAB;879572 wrote: I disagree but to each his own I suppose....
I am inviting you to in Islam.
whatever you doubt about Islam including the scientific approaches ask me but try not to reject this offer right away before knowing anything
The God of Islam (which is the God of all) challanges all of us with believing in Islam and going to heaven or going to hell forever and hell is such terrible place of endless suffering and is the worst place to go! (This world has too many bad things, few good things and Allah prepared the earth only as a temporary place. That is why there is pain, agony, suffering, and poorness. As humans we love this world even thou this is the world that Allah cares least about.)
If you are right about believing that nothing will happen to you or to me after death than then neither of us will suffer. BUT if Islam is right then there will be no returning back
I ask you: Can you take that risk? if you can say yes then prove it to yourself with boiling water. Boil the water and put your hand in it and see if you can take it or not.
I am not asking you people to believe in Islam blindly, find your own questions and let me give you answers!
I am inviting you to in Islam.
whatever you doubt about Islam including the scientific approaches ask me but try not to reject this offer right away before knowing anything
The God of Islam (which is the God of all) challanges all of us with believing in Islam and going to heaven or going to hell forever and hell is such terrible place of endless suffering and is the worst place to go! (This world has too many bad things, few good things and Allah prepared the earth only as a temporary place. That is why there is pain, agony, suffering, and poorness. As humans we love this world even thou this is the world that Allah cares least about.)
If you are right about believing that nothing will happen to you or to me after death than then neither of us will suffer. BUT if Islam is right then there will be no returning back
I ask you: Can you take that risk? if you can say yes then prove it to yourself with boiling water. Boil the water and put your hand in it and see if you can take it or not.
I am not asking you people to believe in Islam blindly, find your own questions and let me give you answers!