Lisbon Treaty Defeat
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
Well, the Irish have voted against the ratification of the Lisbon treaty. Personally I voted yes, and I'm very dissapointed that the Irish people succumed to the lies and hectoring of the no side. I voted yes, as I believe that the European project provides Ireland with the best chance of freedom and prosperity in a rapidly deteriorating global scene, and also because I am a European as well as an Irishman. What happens next is anyone's guess, but I would imagine that Sinn Fein's belief that somehow Brian Cowen is now going to go to Brussels and renegotiate a "better" (whatever that means) treaty for Ireland is disengenuous rubbish. A great day for the UKIP, how strange that it was the Irish that made their day for them.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
Very odd all round really. I'm sure there's no practical consequence but it's a bit strange given how improved living standards are compared to the bad old days. Or do people miss the turfed roofs and the five foot headroom in the village pubs?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
I think that what happened was that people just used the referendum as a vehicle to express their disquiet about the way the country is going at the moment, and also against change in general, thanks to a very well organized no campaign run by Sinn Fein, Right Wing Catholic Groups, and a shady bunch called "Libertas".
Undoubtedly some people were against the thing for very clear reasons, but most people seem to have voted against it because they were scared about things they didn't understand in the very complicated document (most people didn't actually read it of course). That's a failure by the Yes side to argue the case properly and counter the scare tactics of the no side, and also one of the innate problems of trying to hold referendums on complicated administrative documents.
I actually think that the implications for Ireland could end up being quite serious indeed, and people will certainly have plenty of time to absorb the implications of this for the standing of our country in the EU. My own feeling is that its a both a watershed in Irish-European relations, and a political and economic disaster for Ireland. Perhaps the Brits will let us back into the UK, when the EU throws us out.
Undoubtedly some people were against the thing for very clear reasons, but most people seem to have voted against it because they were scared about things they didn't understand in the very complicated document (most people didn't actually read it of course). That's a failure by the Yes side to argue the case properly and counter the scare tactics of the no side, and also one of the innate problems of trying to hold referendums on complicated administrative documents.
I actually think that the implications for Ireland could end up being quite serious indeed, and people will certainly have plenty of time to absorb the implications of this for the standing of our country in the EU. My own feeling is that its a both a watershed in Irish-European relations, and a political and economic disaster for Ireland. Perhaps the Brits will let us back into the UK, when the EU throws us out.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
I voted yes as well, and like you am very disappointed in the result. The treaty was agreed to by our government, while Bertie was the EU President, how do the opponents possible think that we could now get a better deal.
Today in the Sun, one of the headlines on the front page read ‘Dustin the Turkey is voting No’..... This is what this country as come to¦ but then again, it was the Irish votes that sent Dustin to the Eurovision, so we shouldn’t be too surprised.
Today in the Sun, one of the headlines on the front page read ‘Dustin the Turkey is voting No’..... This is what this country as come to¦ but then again, it was the Irish votes that sent Dustin to the Eurovision, so we shouldn’t be too surprised.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
mikeinie;888756 wrote: I voted yes as well, and like you am very disappointed in the result. The treaty was agreed to by our government, while Bertie was the EU President, how do the opponents possible think that we could now get a better deal.
Today in the Sun, one of the headlines on the front page read ‘Dustin the Turkey is voting No’..... This is what this country as come to¦ but then again, it was the Irish votes that sent Dustin to the Eurovision, so we shouldn’t be too surprised.
Yes, the more I think about it the angrier I am getting actually, I would quite like to get rid of the "Irish" Sun and the "Irish" Daily Mail out of this country, as all they are are propaganda sheets for right-wing British capitalists, as well as being vile rags. We should be bloody ashamed of ourselves as a country for being so easily fooled by a bunch of small-minded liars. This Declan Ganely fella, he has spent the last 5 weeks talking about "democratic deficits" in his pompous tones, but I reckon he is not going to take much personal responsibility himself for the political mess he has gotten the country into now with his well-funded European smear campaign, at least he says he is going to admit where he got all his money from. Its a bad day for Ireland all round, I don't know what the way out of this mess is, but I hope something comes along to save us from ourselves and our own stupidity, we need it.
Today in the Sun, one of the headlines on the front page read ‘Dustin the Turkey is voting No’..... This is what this country as come to¦ but then again, it was the Irish votes that sent Dustin to the Eurovision, so we shouldn’t be too surprised.
Yes, the more I think about it the angrier I am getting actually, I would quite like to get rid of the "Irish" Sun and the "Irish" Daily Mail out of this country, as all they are are propaganda sheets for right-wing British capitalists, as well as being vile rags. We should be bloody ashamed of ourselves as a country for being so easily fooled by a bunch of small-minded liars. This Declan Ganely fella, he has spent the last 5 weeks talking about "democratic deficits" in his pompous tones, but I reckon he is not going to take much personal responsibility himself for the political mess he has gotten the country into now with his well-funded European smear campaign, at least he says he is going to admit where he got all his money from. Its a bad day for Ireland all round, I don't know what the way out of this mess is, but I hope something comes along to save us from ourselves and our own stupidity, we need it.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
The question now is, despite current agreements, is Europe going to let a country made up of 1% of the EU population stop it progression, or do they move a head without us and give us a ‘take it or leave it’ ultimatum?
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
mikeinie;888782 wrote: The question now is, despite current agreements, is Europe going to let a country made up of 1% of the EU population stop it progression, or do they move a head without us and give us a ‘take it or leave it’ ultimatum?
I honestly don't know, I would imagine that countries such as Croatia and Serbia, which are pressing for membership of the EU are not going to be very impressed with Sinn Fein's arguments about a "social" Europe, as basically what this vote means is that these countries membership is going to be put back by years if not decades.
I think we have really sleepwalked our way into a very difficult situation for the country, and I don't think a second referendum is really an option, or renegotiation either, thats a Gerry Adams pipe dream. I would love to send Mary Lou McDonald and Ganely over to Brussels, and perhaps they can explain what this is all about and get a better "deal" for Ireland. Its a bit depressing actually, we have done the UKIPs dirty work for it, and all the little Englanders, and our own bunch of loonies are having a field day and congratulating Ireland for its "victory", that makes me sick to my stomach actually.
I can tell you, if the government thought there was any chance of having the budgetary rules relaxed to allow us to borrow to fund the NDP as the economy crashes and tax receipts dissapear, or allowing extra leeway to fund the public service, you can forget that now, not a chance, there won't be much tolerance for Irish "mei-feinism" in Brussels any more, espeically from the newer accession countries.
I honestly don't know, I would imagine that countries such as Croatia and Serbia, which are pressing for membership of the EU are not going to be very impressed with Sinn Fein's arguments about a "social" Europe, as basically what this vote means is that these countries membership is going to be put back by years if not decades.
I think we have really sleepwalked our way into a very difficult situation for the country, and I don't think a second referendum is really an option, or renegotiation either, thats a Gerry Adams pipe dream. I would love to send Mary Lou McDonald and Ganely over to Brussels, and perhaps they can explain what this is all about and get a better "deal" for Ireland. Its a bit depressing actually, we have done the UKIPs dirty work for it, and all the little Englanders, and our own bunch of loonies are having a field day and congratulating Ireland for its "victory", that makes me sick to my stomach actually.
I can tell you, if the government thought there was any chance of having the budgetary rules relaxed to allow us to borrow to fund the NDP as the economy crashes and tax receipts dissapear, or allowing extra leeway to fund the public service, you can forget that now, not a chance, there won't be much tolerance for Irish "mei-feinism" in Brussels any more, espeically from the newer accession countries.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
I think perhaps you're both being a bit alarmist here. Your man will go off and address his peers on Thursday and he'll say well, we had a no vote that's true, and I'm here to tell you my electorate's peeved at something but I'm blowed if I know quite what it is. But we'll ratify anyway, the matter's too important not to, we'll treat the vote as advisory rather than binding, how's that sound? Nobody'll remember in three months when you've got the other seven signatures in place and we'll sneak ours on last.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
spot;889097 wrote: I think perhaps you're both being a bit alarmist here. Your man will go off and address his peers on Thursday and he'll say well, we had a no vote that's true, and I'm here to tell you my electorate's peeved at something but I'm blowed if I know quite what it is. But we'll ratify anyway, the matter's too important not to, we'll treat the vote as advisory rather than binding, how's that sound? Nobody'll remember in three months when you've got the other seven signatures in place and we'll sneak ours on last.
That can't happen spot, Dail Eireann can't ratify the treaty without making adjustments to the Irish Consititution, and to do that you would need the people to have already agreed the changes, thats why the referendum was held in the first place. So, there is no easy way out of this one, anyway, even though I despair at a no vote, it would be totally unacceptable for the government to try and overturn it themselves based on any loophole. The Irish people would never accept that, regardless of how they voted in this referendum. So our government are in a big jam, as they are caught between a rock and hard place, and there isn't any easy solution as far as I can see.
That can't happen spot, Dail Eireann can't ratify the treaty without making adjustments to the Irish Consititution, and to do that you would need the people to have already agreed the changes, thats why the referendum was held in the first place. So, there is no easy way out of this one, anyway, even though I despair at a no vote, it would be totally unacceptable for the government to try and overturn it themselves based on any loophole. The Irish people would never accept that, regardless of how they voted in this referendum. So our government are in a big jam, as they are caught between a rock and hard place, and there isn't any easy solution as far as I can see.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
I think that the government should take this as a vote of no confidence and call for an election.
In the new election, the campaign should be based on the ratification of the treaty, let it hit closer to home. Let the leading parties continue their stand on the issue and a vote for them is a vote for the treaty.
In the new election, the campaign should be based on the ratification of the treaty, let it hit closer to home. Let the leading parties continue their stand on the issue and a vote for them is a vote for the treaty.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
mikeinie;889104 wrote: I think that the government should take this as a vote of no confidence and call for an election.
In the new election, the campaign should be based on the ratification of the treaty, let it hit closer to home. Let the leading parties continue their stand on the issue and a vote for them is a vote for the treaty.
That isn't a bad suggestion actually, though whether they would actually do that is another question, as it might open up divisions in certain government parties, (particularly the Greens). I do think that the government should explain clearly to people what the consequences of this are now for Ireland, Sinn Fein should come clear about their Marxist-Leninist agenda and their desire to get Ireland out of the EU, Mr "freedom loving" Millionaire Ganely should explain who exactly funded his smear campaign, and the government should do its best to try and repair the damage this disasterous referendum has done with our bilateral relationships with almost every other European country. I'd also love Mary Lou to get off the TV as her smug face is driving me nuts. :rolleyes:
In the new election, the campaign should be based on the ratification of the treaty, let it hit closer to home. Let the leading parties continue their stand on the issue and a vote for them is a vote for the treaty.
That isn't a bad suggestion actually, though whether they would actually do that is another question, as it might open up divisions in certain government parties, (particularly the Greens). I do think that the government should explain clearly to people what the consequences of this are now for Ireland, Sinn Fein should come clear about their Marxist-Leninist agenda and their desire to get Ireland out of the EU, Mr "freedom loving" Millionaire Ganely should explain who exactly funded his smear campaign, and the government should do its best to try and repair the damage this disasterous referendum has done with our bilateral relationships with almost every other European country. I'd also love Mary Lou to get off the TV as her smug face is driving me nuts. :rolleyes:
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
Galbally;888650 wrote: Well, the Irish have voted against the ratification of the Lisbon treaty. Personally I voted yes, and I'm very dissapointed that the Irish people succumed to the lies and hectoring of the no side. I voted yes, as I believe that the European project provides Ireland with the best chance of freedom and prosperity in a rapidly deteriorating global scene, and also because I am a European as well as an Irishman. What happens next is anyone's guess, but I would imagine that Sinn Fein's belief that somehow Brian Cowen is now going to go to Brussels and renegotiate a "better" (whatever that means) treaty for Ireland is disengenuous rubbish. A great day for the UKIP, how strange that it was the Irish that made their day for them.
UKIP in the irish republic?
I know a ukip activist locally. Depressingly forthright and ignorant but we have great fun arguing. luckily up here they are outnumbered by closet SNP and revolutionary socialists and the average punter is not so easily taken in. Our next election is going to be very interesting indeed.
UKIP in the irish republic?
I know a ukip activist locally. Depressingly forthright and ignorant but we have great fun arguing. luckily up here they are outnumbered by closet SNP and revolutionary socialists and the average punter is not so easily taken in. Our next election is going to be very interesting indeed.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
Galbally;889101 wrote: That can't happen spot, Dail Eireann can't ratify the treaty without making adjustments to the Irish Consititution, and to do that you would need the people to have already agreed the changesWe don't do things like that over here - who on earth drew up your Constitution to allow that sort of power in the hands of the electorate? Good lord.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
gmc;890270 wrote: UKIP in the irish republic?
I know a ukip activist locally. Depressingly forthright and ignorant but we have great fun arguing. luckily up here they are outnumbered by closet SNP and revolutionary socialists and the average punter is not so easily taken in. Our next election is going to be very interesting indeed.
Oh they wouldn't show their faces around here, as they know what they would get, but certainly I have a feeling that they may have been giving money to the "no" campaign, or someone of their ilk in Britain. They are having a field day now of course, and the fenian scum Irish are their new best friends all of a sudden (groan). To be honest listening to them makes my blood boil, petty nationalist, racists, usually their main tack is to liken the EU to the "Fourth Reich" blah, blah, blah; they should listen to themselves sometimes and their sheer hatred of everything and everyone who isn't "English" by their standards of course, they sound a lot like a certain party I remember from the 1930s.
I know a ukip activist locally. Depressingly forthright and ignorant but we have great fun arguing. luckily up here they are outnumbered by closet SNP and revolutionary socialists and the average punter is not so easily taken in. Our next election is going to be very interesting indeed.
Oh they wouldn't show their faces around here, as they know what they would get, but certainly I have a feeling that they may have been giving money to the "no" campaign, or someone of their ilk in Britain. They are having a field day now of course, and the fenian scum Irish are their new best friends all of a sudden (groan). To be honest listening to them makes my blood boil, petty nationalist, racists, usually their main tack is to liken the EU to the "Fourth Reich" blah, blah, blah; they should listen to themselves sometimes and their sheer hatred of everything and everyone who isn't "English" by their standards of course, they sound a lot like a certain party I remember from the 1930s.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
spot;890273 wrote: We don't do things like that over here - who on earth drew up your Constitution to allow that sort of power in the hands of the electorate? Good lord.
Eamon De Velera, you may remember him from such historical episodes as the Anglo-Irish war, or the Civil War, not my hero, but he did write a pretty good constitution. Also, despite the fact I am very disappointed with what I regard as a disasterously self-defeating result, as an Irish citizen I respect my own laws and system of democratic governance, including the results of referendums, however misguided they may be. You see, this is why I am a citizen of a republic, and you are the subject of a constitutional monarch, whatever you may think, there is a difference.
Eamon De Velera, you may remember him from such historical episodes as the Anglo-Irish war, or the Civil War, not my hero, but he did write a pretty good constitution. Also, despite the fact I am very disappointed with what I regard as a disasterously self-defeating result, as an Irish citizen I respect my own laws and system of democratic governance, including the results of referendums, however misguided they may be. You see, this is why I am a citizen of a republic, and you are the subject of a constitutional monarch, whatever you may think, there is a difference.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
You're not joking there's a difference. The style of loyal subject of the crown as opposed to citizen (which has a dreadfully French sound to it) is perfectly respectable. It carries none of the overtones in Bristol that it would carry in Belfast.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
Galbally;890274 wrote: ...........blah, blah, blah; they should listen to themselves sometimes and their sheer hatred of everything and everyone who isn't "English" by their standards of course, they sound a lot like a certain party I remember from the 1930s.
Bejaysus you're that old? From your account they sound a lot like another party which is around at moment. Strangely, for some reason the BNP have damn all penetration in Scotland.
They are, however, the natural successors of the British Union of Fascists - except for the little factoid that the Fascists would consider them extremist.
Bejaysus you're that old? From your account they sound a lot like another party which is around at moment. Strangely, for some reason the BNP have damn all penetration in Scotland.
They are, however, the natural successors of the British Union of Fascists - except for the little factoid that the Fascists would consider them extremist.
An ye harm none, do what ye will....
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
spot;890289 wrote: You're not joking there's a difference. The style of loyal subject of the crown as opposed to citizen (which has a dreadfully French sound to it) is perfectly respectable. It carries none of the overtones in Bristol that it would carry in Belfast.
Yes, but we quite like the French over here, and we have forgiven them their abortive attempt to aid us in 1798, which of course went horribly wrong in Bantry Bay, but at least they stuck it to the Brits hard and often, good food as well. Of course the Germans sent us plenty of guns in 1916 as well, we ain't quite so hateful towards the krauts either (though we accept they went too far in that tricky 1933-45 period). Essentially we like everyone in Europe, well, almost everyone. :rolleyes:
Yes, but we quite like the French over here, and we have forgiven them their abortive attempt to aid us in 1798, which of course went horribly wrong in Bantry Bay, but at least they stuck it to the Brits hard and often, good food as well. Of course the Germans sent us plenty of guns in 1916 as well, we ain't quite so hateful towards the krauts either (though we accept they went too far in that tricky 1933-45 period). Essentially we like everyone in Europe, well, almost everyone. :rolleyes:
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
Chookie;890290 wrote: Bejaysus you're that old? From your account they sound a lot like another party which is around at moment. Strangely, for some reason the BNP have damn all penetration in Scotland.
They are, however, the natural successors of the British Union of Fascists - except for the little factoid that the Fascists would consider them extremist.
The British Nutter Party? Apparently they are mad to set up an office in Ireland, seriously. Yes, and they are stone mad nutters. Though they seem to have turned off baiting Irish immigrants in Britain now, and have turned on Muslims with a vengence, well it is more topical I suppose, they are just keeping up with times as they see it.
They are, however, the natural successors of the British Union of Fascists - except for the little factoid that the Fascists would consider them extremist.
The British Nutter Party? Apparently they are mad to set up an office in Ireland, seriously. Yes, and they are stone mad nutters. Though they seem to have turned off baiting Irish immigrants in Britain now, and have turned on Muslims with a vengence, well it is more topical I suppose, they are just keeping up with times as they see it.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
Galbally;890315 wrote: The British Nutter Party? Apparently they are mad to set up an office in Ireland, seriously. Yes, and they are stone mad nutters. Though they seem to have turned off baiting Irish immigrants in Britain now, and have turned on Muslims with a vengence, well it is more topical I suppose, they are just keeping up with times as they see it.
What I find depressing is when you meet some of them that are clearly intelligent and yet they fall for this crap. The BNP seem to be gaining support in the inner cities.
UKIP guy mentioned came out with the factoid that our trade with the EU is only 14% of our total exports. At least I talked him in to checking his facts. UKIP don't do well in scotland either.
What I find depressing is when you meet some of them that are clearly intelligent and yet they fall for this crap. The BNP seem to be gaining support in the inner cities.
UKIP guy mentioned came out with the factoid that our trade with the EU is only 14% of our total exports. At least I talked him in to checking his facts. UKIP don't do well in scotland either.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
gmc;890457 wrote: What I find depressing is when you meet some of them that are clearly intelligent and yet they fall for this crap. The BNP seem to be gaining support in the inner cities.
UKIP guy mentioned came out with the factoid that our trade with the EU is only 14% of our total exports. At least I talked him in to checking his facts. UKIP don't do well in scotland either.
Seriously, I think that the tories will take the UK out of the EU in the next Parliament, and go for associate status or something, either that, or the rest of the EU will try to get Britain out of the Union anyway, as it seems that the whole EU thing has become such a posionous issue in Britain, and its effecting other countries as well. Whatever people may think, the EU is not a dictatorship, or a superstate, its an intergovernmental organization, and the membership status of each member state is voluntary. It really seems to me at this stage, that Britain should just leave, at least for a couple of decades, as its better for all concerned.
Not saying that there isn't plenty of Euro-skepticism in other countries as well (including my own of course), but in Britain (and especially in England) it's gone past skepticism now, and seems to be entering the realms of pathological hatred, thats not a healthy situation. If the population are that against it, it really is better for Britain to leave. Personally I think that would be a polticial and economic diaster for Britain, and would simply confirm it as a vassal state of Washington, but to be honest, at the moment, I'm more concerned about my own country's problems within the EU.
We have really backed ourselves into a corner, with no easy way out. The last thing we need is for a lecture from the larger countries, as they will just antagonize the Irish people more, I think a period of reflection on events, and some cool heads about where we go as a country from here within the current EU set up is called for. Hopefully the sometimes myopic leaders in Brussels will realize this, and go easy on the Irish government, which really needs to up its game, as the referendum diaster is a big wake up call for them. My own view is that Ireland has no future as an independent nation outside the EU, and that if we were to be forced out, we would quickly fall into the orbit of the UK, or the US, and basically become Wales (or Puerto Rico) with a government but no ability to make independent policies (no disrespect to Wales or Puerto Rico).
UKIP guy mentioned came out with the factoid that our trade with the EU is only 14% of our total exports. At least I talked him in to checking his facts. UKIP don't do well in scotland either.
Seriously, I think that the tories will take the UK out of the EU in the next Parliament, and go for associate status or something, either that, or the rest of the EU will try to get Britain out of the Union anyway, as it seems that the whole EU thing has become such a posionous issue in Britain, and its effecting other countries as well. Whatever people may think, the EU is not a dictatorship, or a superstate, its an intergovernmental organization, and the membership status of each member state is voluntary. It really seems to me at this stage, that Britain should just leave, at least for a couple of decades, as its better for all concerned.
Not saying that there isn't plenty of Euro-skepticism in other countries as well (including my own of course), but in Britain (and especially in England) it's gone past skepticism now, and seems to be entering the realms of pathological hatred, thats not a healthy situation. If the population are that against it, it really is better for Britain to leave. Personally I think that would be a polticial and economic diaster for Britain, and would simply confirm it as a vassal state of Washington, but to be honest, at the moment, I'm more concerned about my own country's problems within the EU.
We have really backed ourselves into a corner, with no easy way out. The last thing we need is for a lecture from the larger countries, as they will just antagonize the Irish people more, I think a period of reflection on events, and some cool heads about where we go as a country from here within the current EU set up is called for. Hopefully the sometimes myopic leaders in Brussels will realize this, and go easy on the Irish government, which really needs to up its game, as the referendum diaster is a big wake up call for them. My own view is that Ireland has no future as an independent nation outside the EU, and that if we were to be forced out, we would quickly fall into the orbit of the UK, or the US, and basically become Wales (or Puerto Rico) with a government but no ability to make independent policies (no disrespect to Wales or Puerto Rico).
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
I had my brother in law preaching to me about democracy last night and how great it was that Ireland voted no. I congratulated him on his victory and asked him what it was that he really won? Was has come out of it for Ireland? and how are we now better off?
I laugh when they say ‘we are not saying no to Europe’, because that is exactly what we just did.
The other line that makes me laugh is the line about ‘Ireland being at the heart of Europe’, are they kidding? If we were, we have now been moved to the ars of it.
There are people who seriously think that we can now just go back and negotiate a 'better deal', right, like the other 26 countries will be happy to sit down and re-write the whole treaty.
I remember it was not too long ago that half of his siblings were in other countries working because there was almost 23% unemployment in Ireland. Let’s home that we don’t end up there again.
I laugh when they say ‘we are not saying no to Europe’, because that is exactly what we just did.
The other line that makes me laugh is the line about ‘Ireland being at the heart of Europe’, are they kidding? If we were, we have now been moved to the ars of it.
There are people who seriously think that we can now just go back and negotiate a 'better deal', right, like the other 26 countries will be happy to sit down and re-write the whole treaty.
I remember it was not too long ago that half of his siblings were in other countries working because there was almost 23% unemployment in Ireland. Let’s home that we don’t end up there again.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
mikeinie;890608 wrote: I had my brother in law preaching to me about democracy last night and how great it was that Ireland voted no. I congratulated him on his victory and asked him what it was that he really won? Was has come out of it for Ireland? and how are we now better off?
I laugh when they say ‘we are not saying no to Europe’, because that is exactly what we just did.
The other line that makes me laugh is the line about ‘Ireland being at the heart of Europe’, are they kidding? If we were, we have now been moved to the ars of it.
There are people who seriously think that we can now just go back and negotiate a 'better deal', right, like the other 26 countries will be happy to sit down and re-write the whole treaty.
I remember it was not too long ago that half of his siblings were in other countries working because there was almost 23% unemployment in Ireland. Let’s home that we don’t end up there again.
I know, its worrying that Irish people seem to have forgotten what the realities of life were like in this country in the past, and how membership of the EU has enabled us to disentangle ourselves from the grip of Britain. I think we need a very serious public debate about where this country is heading and what our options are to do something about it.
People have every right to be proud about their independence and soveriegnty, but patriotism is not all about wrapping a green flag around ourselves, its also about looking at how best a small nation like Ireland can ensure its future, and the prospects of its children, in a very hard world. I really think people have little idea about how damaging this has been for Ireland, and how easily everything that has been achieved over the past 20 years could unravel.
The people have been led into doing something that is directly against their nation's interests by a bunch of smooth-talking snake oil salesmen, who out-lied our regular politicians, I just hope some commonsense about the realities of where Ireland is going breaks out soon, before like you said, we find ourselves out of the EU mainstream, out of the Euro, up to our necks in debt we can't repay, watching inward investment hemorrage, industries being removed wholesale to the continent, with a country we can't afford to run anymore, and very few friends to help us.
I laugh when they say ‘we are not saying no to Europe’, because that is exactly what we just did.
The other line that makes me laugh is the line about ‘Ireland being at the heart of Europe’, are they kidding? If we were, we have now been moved to the ars of it.
There are people who seriously think that we can now just go back and negotiate a 'better deal', right, like the other 26 countries will be happy to sit down and re-write the whole treaty.
I remember it was not too long ago that half of his siblings were in other countries working because there was almost 23% unemployment in Ireland. Let’s home that we don’t end up there again.
I know, its worrying that Irish people seem to have forgotten what the realities of life were like in this country in the past, and how membership of the EU has enabled us to disentangle ourselves from the grip of Britain. I think we need a very serious public debate about where this country is heading and what our options are to do something about it.
People have every right to be proud about their independence and soveriegnty, but patriotism is not all about wrapping a green flag around ourselves, its also about looking at how best a small nation like Ireland can ensure its future, and the prospects of its children, in a very hard world. I really think people have little idea about how damaging this has been for Ireland, and how easily everything that has been achieved over the past 20 years could unravel.
The people have been led into doing something that is directly against their nation's interests by a bunch of smooth-talking snake oil salesmen, who out-lied our regular politicians, I just hope some commonsense about the realities of where Ireland is going breaks out soon, before like you said, we find ourselves out of the EU mainstream, out of the Euro, up to our necks in debt we can't repay, watching inward investment hemorrage, industries being removed wholesale to the continent, with a country we can't afford to run anymore, and very few friends to help us.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
Galbally;890535 wrote: Seriously, I think that the tories will take the UK out of the EU in the next Parliament, and go for associate status or something, either that, or the rest of the EU will try to get Britain out of the Union anyway, as it seems that the whole EU thing has become such a posionous issue in Britain, and its effecting other countries as well. Whatever people may think, the EU is not a dictatorship, or a superstate, its an intergovernmental organization, and the membership status of each member state is voluntary. It really seems to me at this stage, that Britain should just leave, at least for a couple of decades, as its better for all concerned.
Not saying that there isn't plenty of Euro-skepticism in other countries as well (including my own of course), but in Britain (and especially in England) it's gone past skepticism now, and seems to be entering the realms of pathological hatred, thats not a healthy situation. If the population are that against it, it really is better for Britain to leave. Personally I think that would be a polticial and economic diaster for Britain, and would simply confirm it as a vassal state of Washington, but to be honest, at the moment, I'm more concerned about my own country's problems within the EU.
We have really backed ourselves into a corner, with no easy way out. The last thing we need is for a lecture from the larger countries, as they will just antagonize the Irish people more, I think a period of reflection on events, and some cool heads about where we go as a country from here within the current EU set up is called for. Hopefully the sometimes myopic leaders in Brussels will realize this, and go easy on the Irish government, which really needs to up its game, as the referendum diaster is a big wake up call for them. My own view is that Ireland has no future as an independent nation outside the EU, and that if we were to be forced out, we would quickly fall into the orbit of the UK, or the US, and basically become Wales (or Puerto Rico) with a government but no ability to make independent policies (no disrespect to Wales or Puerto Rico).
It would be a disaster for us if we did IMO. I remember the seventies as well and what things were like.Much of the much vaunted inward investment is due to our joining the EU. The bulk of our trade is with the EU. Hopefully iraq and the credit crunch will make people think a bit.
I think the SNP will take scotland at the next election-more as a protest vote than any real desire for independence. The tories have got no chance
Not saying that there isn't plenty of Euro-skepticism in other countries as well (including my own of course), but in Britain (and especially in England) it's gone past skepticism now, and seems to be entering the realms of pathological hatred, thats not a healthy situation. If the population are that against it, it really is better for Britain to leave. Personally I think that would be a polticial and economic diaster for Britain, and would simply confirm it as a vassal state of Washington, but to be honest, at the moment, I'm more concerned about my own country's problems within the EU.
We have really backed ourselves into a corner, with no easy way out. The last thing we need is for a lecture from the larger countries, as they will just antagonize the Irish people more, I think a period of reflection on events, and some cool heads about where we go as a country from here within the current EU set up is called for. Hopefully the sometimes myopic leaders in Brussels will realize this, and go easy on the Irish government, which really needs to up its game, as the referendum diaster is a big wake up call for them. My own view is that Ireland has no future as an independent nation outside the EU, and that if we were to be forced out, we would quickly fall into the orbit of the UK, or the US, and basically become Wales (or Puerto Rico) with a government but no ability to make independent policies (no disrespect to Wales or Puerto Rico).
It would be a disaster for us if we did IMO. I remember the seventies as well and what things were like.Much of the much vaunted inward investment is due to our joining the EU. The bulk of our trade is with the EU. Hopefully iraq and the credit crunch will make people think a bit.
I think the SNP will take scotland at the next election-more as a protest vote than any real desire for independence. The tories have got no chance
Lisbon Treaty Defeat
Nomad;898653 wrote: Lesbians are always starting trouble. Ever noticed that ?
Yeah.
Yeah.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.