spot;898959 wrote: The test for rehabilitation is whether they're less likely than the average person in society of re-offending, not whether they're incapable of re-offending. I don't think parole boards give enough weight to rehabilitation, myself. I think it ought to weigh more in their decision. I think parole boards release murderers too easily and on the wrong grounds, at least in England - I'm not here making a comment about the US experience of parole, I know too little about it.
My "earlier statement about how they were raised and why they killed" relates to my sympathy for them, not to whether they should have been detained longer. It has little to do with rehabilitation.
So SYMPATHY aside.............
You are saying they killed because of their upbringing but being locked up and counseled they are now "less likely than the average person in society of re-offending"?
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
"If America Was A Tree, The Left Would Root For The Termites...Greg Gutfeld."
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
BTS;898962 wrote: So SYMPATHY aside.............
You are saying they killed because of their upbringing but being locked up and counseled they are now "less likely than the average person in society of re-offending"?
That seems an entirely fair summary of what I've posted, yes. Both parts seem to me to be undeniable.
You are saying they killed because of their upbringing but being locked up and counseled they are now "less likely than the average person in society of re-offending"?
That seems an entirely fair summary of what I've posted, yes. Both parts seem to me to be undeniable.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
TheBlackWhisper
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:55 pm
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
I registered to respond to your argument because I simply am constantly amazed that there are people out there like yourself who have to find an explanation for everything and try to defend people who kill for no good reason other than to please their sick side.
Yet here you are, a real life defender of the pyscho. And you're obviously religious to boot due to all the God quotes you wheel out! Brilliant!Perfect combination. Let's one day have a convo about that little subject. Moving on: you're not a lawyer or ex-murderer are you? Only joking.
I'm just fascinated with your reasons for jumping to the defence of the two killers. You put up one hell of an argument, I'll grant you that, but can't you see how you stand out like a spare prick at a wedding on this thread? Hardly anyone on this forum agrees with you - your constantly having to bat your point home. Does this not tell you something?
What are your thoughts on the old guy in Europe who kept his own daughter locked up for years and had several children with her? Bad upbringing? Daddy didn't love him? Let's go to the top and discuss Hitler. Has he got a valid excuse for his atrocities? That one testicle played on his mind so much he just had to gas the world?
Serious question here, and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm attacking you above (please don't go into a clever rant about how I am and break down my words to try and dilute my argument) but why do some people experience terrible events in their lives and grow up bad and some grow up good? Don't you see that in this question alone I've proved that there are simply just some bad apples in this world and nothing can be done to change them? Their insticts to kill are just like my own to fancy women. I'll never change those instincts. Would you? So how can they?
Yet here you are, a real life defender of the pyscho. And you're obviously religious to boot due to all the God quotes you wheel out! Brilliant!Perfect combination. Let's one day have a convo about that little subject. Moving on: you're not a lawyer or ex-murderer are you? Only joking.
I'm just fascinated with your reasons for jumping to the defence of the two killers. You put up one hell of an argument, I'll grant you that, but can't you see how you stand out like a spare prick at a wedding on this thread? Hardly anyone on this forum agrees with you - your constantly having to bat your point home. Does this not tell you something?
What are your thoughts on the old guy in Europe who kept his own daughter locked up for years and had several children with her? Bad upbringing? Daddy didn't love him? Let's go to the top and discuss Hitler. Has he got a valid excuse for his atrocities? That one testicle played on his mind so much he just had to gas the world?
Serious question here, and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm attacking you above (please don't go into a clever rant about how I am and break down my words to try and dilute my argument) but why do some people experience terrible events in their lives and grow up bad and some grow up good? Don't you see that in this question alone I've proved that there are simply just some bad apples in this world and nothing can be done to change them? Their insticts to kill are just like my own to fancy women. I'll never change those instincts. Would you? So how can they?
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
TheBlackWhisper;899485 wrote: Serious question here, and I'm sorry if I sound like I'm attacking you above (please don't go into a clever rant about how I am and break down my words to try and dilute my argument) but why do some people experience terrible events in their lives and grow up bad and some grow up good? Don't you see that in this question alone I've proved that there are simply just some bad apples in this world and nothing can be done to change them? Their insticts to kill are just like my own to fancy women. I'll never change those instincts. Would you? So how can they?
If you were right here then you'd be right entirely, but you're not. "nothing can be done to change them" is wrong and there's evidence to demonstrate that. You walked straight past my example of Mary Bell without a comment, for example, and yet she's an instance comparable in some ways with the two lads the thread's about. She changed. How old does she have to get before you'd admit she's changed? She was undoubtedly a child killer, she was eleven when she killed a four and a three year old. She was rehabilitated. She's no more a danger to the public now than the average - less so, I'd suggest, since she knows what the issues are in great detail.
You walked past my question on child soldiers as well. It's relevant.
I have no idea what "just like my own to fancy women" implies but it sounds rather disturbed. *>>> ETA: BUT see below regarding my mistake in interpreting your sentence.
If you were right here then you'd be right entirely, but you're not. "nothing can be done to change them" is wrong and there's evidence to demonstrate that. You walked straight past my example of Mary Bell without a comment, for example, and yet she's an instance comparable in some ways with the two lads the thread's about. She changed. How old does she have to get before you'd admit she's changed? She was undoubtedly a child killer, she was eleven when she killed a four and a three year old. She was rehabilitated. She's no more a danger to the public now than the average - less so, I'd suggest, since she knows what the issues are in great detail.
You walked past my question on child soldiers as well. It's relevant.
I have no idea what "just like my own to fancy women" implies but it sounds rather disturbed. *>>> ETA: BUT see below regarding my mistake in interpreting your sentence.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
How does anyone know for sure that Mary Bell has changed, she could of gotten cleverer and not got caught out but still be a menace...You cant say 100% that she has changed and that she hasnt offended unless your her and then I wouldnt believe you.
There are some crimes and evil disgusting acts that mankind commit against fellow mankind that can never be forgiven and those people should never ever ever be trusted into communities again...IN MY OPINION of course.
Requests of links to my own opinions and orders to back up any of the above will be ignored so dont bother. This is a converation forum and I felt compelled to have my say without having to defend it.:rolleyes:
There are some crimes and evil disgusting acts that mankind commit against fellow mankind that can never be forgiven and those people should never ever ever be trusted into communities again...IN MY OPINION of course.
Requests of links to my own opinions and orders to back up any of the above will be ignored so dont bother. This is a converation forum and I felt compelled to have my say without having to defend it.:rolleyes:
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Their insticts to kill are just like my own to fancy women. I'll never change those instincts. Would you? So how can they?
Theirs nothing disturbing about a man fancying women???
Hes mearly saying that Killers instincts are as strong as his desires are to fancy women. He will never stop fancying women and doesnt think a killer will ever stop wanting to kill...
Theirs nothing disturbing about a man fancying women???
Hes mearly saying that Killers instincts are as strong as his desires are to fancy women. He will never stop fancying women and doesnt think a killer will ever stop wanting to kill...
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Chezzie;899501 wrote: How does anyone know for sure that Mary Bell has changed, she could of gotten cleverer and not got caught out but still be a menace...You cant say 100% that she has changed and that she hasnt offended unless your her and then I wouldnt believe you.
There are some crimes and evil disgusting acts that mankind commit against fellow mankind that can never be forgiven and those people should never ever ever be trusted into communities again...IN MY OPINION of course.
Requests of links to my own opinions and orders to back up any of the above will be ignored so dont bother. This is a converation forum and I felt compelled to have my say without having to defend it.:rolleyes:
Mary Bell has changed her behaviour. She used to kill little boys when she was a child and since she was treated she's not done it again. Her behaviour has altered.
Her reasons for altering her behaviour are entirely internal and known only to her - if she knows them, which she might not. They're not being tested. What's being tested is the parole board's decision to consider her less at risk of offending than the average person in society. The parole board came to that conclusion 28 years ago and so far they've proved to be right. I think that's a good test so far of whether they'll end up right for the rest of her life.
Mary Bell was another broken child victim who was mended. Would you prefer that no attempt were made to mend them? Perhaps you're unaware of the damage that was done to her before she killed.
Would you prefer that, even if successfully mended, they continue to be locked away for the rest of their lives?
There are some crimes and evil disgusting acts that mankind commit against fellow mankind that can never be forgiven and those people should never ever ever be trusted into communities again...IN MY OPINION of course.
Requests of links to my own opinions and orders to back up any of the above will be ignored so dont bother. This is a converation forum and I felt compelled to have my say without having to defend it.:rolleyes:
Mary Bell has changed her behaviour. She used to kill little boys when she was a child and since she was treated she's not done it again. Her behaviour has altered.
Her reasons for altering her behaviour are entirely internal and known only to her - if she knows them, which she might not. They're not being tested. What's being tested is the parole board's decision to consider her less at risk of offending than the average person in society. The parole board came to that conclusion 28 years ago and so far they've proved to be right. I think that's a good test so far of whether they'll end up right for the rest of her life.
Mary Bell was another broken child victim who was mended. Would you prefer that no attempt were made to mend them? Perhaps you're unaware of the damage that was done to her before she killed.
Would you prefer that, even if successfully mended, they continue to be locked away for the rest of their lives?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
hoxtonchris
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:41 pm
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
i dont believe that people who go to the defence of child murderers truely believe that they can be reformed....just ask yourself if you would allow a child or grandchild of yours to be left alone in the care of Mary Bell or indeed the 2 that killed this baby.if the answer to this question is yes then you cannot be much of a parent or grandparent and if the answer is no welcome to the real world.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Chezzie;899502 wrote: Theirs nothing disturbing about a man fancying women???
Hes mearly saying that Killers instincts are as strong as his desires are to fancy women. He will never stop fancying women and doesnt think a killer will ever stop wanting to kill...
I had a passing glitch in reading his English, that's all.
What he wrote was "Their insticts to kill are just like my own to fancy women. I'll never change those instincts."
What I took it to mean was: Their instincts to kill are just like my own instincts to kill fancy-women. I'll never change those instincts.
Which, had it been what he meant by his words, would have been disturbed.
I can see that your interpretation is correct and mine was both superficial and mistaken.
Hes mearly saying that Killers instincts are as strong as his desires are to fancy women. He will never stop fancying women and doesnt think a killer will ever stop wanting to kill...
I had a passing glitch in reading his English, that's all.
What he wrote was "Their insticts to kill are just like my own to fancy women. I'll never change those instincts."
What I took it to mean was: Their instincts to kill are just like my own instincts to kill fancy-women. I'll never change those instincts.
Which, had it been what he meant by his words, would have been disturbed.
I can see that your interpretation is correct and mine was both superficial and mistaken.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
hoxtonchris;899507 wrote: i dont believe that people who go to the defence of child murderers truely believe that they can be reformed....just ask yourself if you would allow a child or grandchild of yours to be left alone in the care of Mary Bell or indeed the 2 that killed this baby.if the answer to this question is yes then you cannot be much of a parent or grandparent and if the answer is no welcome to the real world.
Of course I would. It's a matter of trust, whoever you choose to leave them with. I'd feel safer leaving a child with any of the three you mention than with a local babysitter I'd never heard of.
Of course I would. It's a matter of trust, whoever you choose to leave them with. I'd feel safer leaving a child with any of the three you mention than with a local babysitter I'd never heard of.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;899506 wrote: Mary Bell has changed her behaviour. She used to kill little boys when she was a child and since she was treated she's not done it again. Her behaviour has altered.
Her reasons for altering her behaviour are entirely internal and known only to her - if she knows them, which she might not. They're not being tested. What's being tested is whether the parole board consider her less of a risk of offending than the average person in society. The parole board came to that conclusion 28 years ago and so far they've proved to be right. I think that's a good test so far of whether they'll end up right for the rest of her life.
Mary Bell was another broken child victim who was mended. Would you prefer that no attempt were made to mend them? Perhaps you're unaware of the damage that was done to her before she killed.
Would you prefer that, even if successfully mended, they continue to be locked away for the rest of their lives?
So your telling me that you can 100% for sure say that Mary Bell hasnt re offended???
Her reasons for altering her behaviour are entirely internal and known only to her - if she knows them, which she might not. They're not being tested. What's being tested is whether the parole board consider her less of a risk of offending than the average person in society. The parole board came to that conclusion 28 years ago and so far they've proved to be right. I think that's a good test so far of whether they'll end up right for the rest of her life.
Mary Bell was another broken child victim who was mended. Would you prefer that no attempt were made to mend them? Perhaps you're unaware of the damage that was done to her before she killed.
Would you prefer that, even if successfully mended, they continue to be locked away for the rest of their lives?
So your telling me that you can 100% for sure say that Mary Bell hasnt re offended???
-
hoxtonchris
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:41 pm
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;899510 wrote: Of course I would. It's a matter of trust, whoever you choose to leave them with. I'd feel safer leaving a child with any of the three you mention than with a local babysitter I'd never heard of.that says it all spot thankyou for answering my question.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Chezzie;899512 wrote: So your telling me that you can 100% for sure say that Mary Bell hasnt re offended???
I'm quite sure that the police and the prison parole service have paid close attention to her since her release, which makes me more confident that she hasn't killed since her release than I would be of a random stranger.
I'm quite sure that the police and the prison parole service have paid close attention to her since her release, which makes me more confident that she hasn't killed since her release than I would be of a random stranger.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;899510 wrote: Of course I would. It's a matter of trust, whoever you choose to leave them with. I'd feel safer leaving a child with any of the three you mention than with a local babysitter I'd never heard of.
I cannot believe you honest to god really mean that and if you do, you seriously need to re-read what those monsters did to their victims. I know of no one who leaves their kids with local babysitters they have never heard? If their local, how come you havent heard of them?
I cannot believe you honest to god really mean that and if you do, you seriously need to re-read what those monsters did to their victims. I know of no one who leaves their kids with local babysitters they have never heard? If their local, how come you havent heard of them?
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Babysitters leave adverts in local newsagent windows. Parents take up references before employing them. Most people, I imagine, myself included, prefer a babysitter known already in some other capacity but not everyone has that option. I found one local babysitter from a newsagent advert with references and she turned out to be reliable, but the other dozen were people I knew.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;899514 wrote: I'm quite sure that the police and the prison parole service have paid close attention to her since her release, which makes me more confident that she hasn't killed since her release than I would be of a random stranger.
The same police you have absolutely no faith in? Sorry but I dont agree and of course I cant 100% say that she has but their lies the problem with me, whilst their walking free, their able to reoffend. Im not saying Mary Bell has or infact she would, I just took umbridge to you saying she was a reformed character etc...You are only pressuming that, you dont know it as fact, its just your opinion, the same as its ours that James Bulgers killers are evil monsters...I will never ever ever change my opinion on those two boys.
The same police you have absolutely no faith in? Sorry but I dont agree and of course I cant 100% say that she has but their lies the problem with me, whilst their walking free, their able to reoffend. Im not saying Mary Bell has or infact she would, I just took umbridge to you saying she was a reformed character etc...You are only pressuming that, you dont know it as fact, its just your opinion, the same as its ours that James Bulgers killers are evil monsters...I will never ever ever change my opinion on those two boys.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
I rely on the competence of the parole board. Mary Bell's name will have come up in bright lights in every murder investigation within her county ever since she was released on license, she'll always have been considered and positively checked out.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
-
hoxtonchris
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:41 pm
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Chezzie;899517 wrote: The same police you have absolutely no faith in? Sorry but I dont agree and of course I cant 100% say that she has but their lies the problem with me, whilst their walking free, their able to reoffend. Im not saying Mary Bell has or infact she would, I just took umbridge to you saying she was a reformed character etc...You are only pressuming that, you dont know it as fact, its just your opinion, the same as its ours that James Bulgers killers are evil monsters...I will never ever ever change my opinion on those two boys.i agree Chezzie. reformed murderers just like reformed alcohoics can never be considered cured until they die sober.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;899516 wrote: Babysitters leave adverts in local newsagent windows. Parents take up references before employing them. Most people, I imagine, myself included, prefer a babysitter known already in some other capacity but not everyone has that option. I found one local babysitter from a newsagent advert with references and she turned out to be reliable, but the other dozen were people I knew.
Im fortunate that iv'e never had to use a babysitter. Only grandparents and aunties. I worked at the nursery they went to playgroup at so was always there. We dont go out at night so never need a babysitter. I would never leave my child with anyone I didnt know because I dont have to. I feel sorry for people who arent as fortunate as me but I bet given the choice of Mary Bell or Venables and Thompson they would rather pick someone out the paper, jeeez I know I would.
Im fortunate that iv'e never had to use a babysitter. Only grandparents and aunties. I worked at the nursery they went to playgroup at so was always there. We dont go out at night so never need a babysitter. I would never leave my child with anyone I didnt know because I dont have to. I feel sorry for people who arent as fortunate as me but I bet given the choice of Mary Bell or Venables and Thompson they would rather pick someone out the paper, jeeez I know I would.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Neither of you want to tackle the child soldiers question?There are hundreds of child soldiers in West and Central Africa, for example, who have behaved far worse than the two under discussion. The child soldiers wouldn't have done what they did except for their upbringing. Their circumstances have changed. Are you telling me that none of them can become productive healed citizens? Where's the difference between all of them and the two you're dismissing as monsters?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;899523 wrote: Neither of you want to tackle the child soldiers question?There are hundreds of child soldiers in West and Central Africa, for example, who have behaved far worse than the two under discussion. The child soldiers wouldn't have done what they did except for their upbringing. Their circumstances have changed. Are you telling me that none of them can become productive healed citizens? Where's the difference between all of them and the two you're dismissing as monsters?
I didnt come on a thread titled James Bulgers Mother tracks down killers to then tackle the child soldiers question. If you wish to tackle it with people I suggest you create another thread for it. I just wanted to comment on the op.
I didnt come on a thread titled James Bulgers Mother tracks down killers to then tackle the child soldiers question. If you wish to tackle it with people I suggest you create another thread for it. I just wanted to comment on the op.
-
hoxtonchris
- Posts: 576
- Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:41 pm
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;899523 wrote: Neither of you want to tackle the child soldiers question?There are hundreds of child soldiers in West and Central Africa, for example, who have behaved far worse than the two under discussion. The child soldiers wouldn't have done what they did except for their upbringing. Their circumstances have changed. Are you telling me that none of them can become productive healed citizens? Where's the difference between all of them and the two you're dismissing as monsters?
im not here to discuss soldiers as thats not what this thread is about even though you do seem to like going away from the actual real subject which is the killing of a baby for no reason other then wanting to. but for the record of course i do not believe for one moment that those child soldiers can grow up as well balanced human beings.
im not here to discuss soldiers as thats not what this thread is about even though you do seem to like going away from the actual real subject which is the killing of a baby for no reason other then wanting to. but for the record of course i do not believe for one moment that those child soldiers can grow up as well balanced human beings.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
hoxtonchris;899528 wrote: im not here to discuss soldiers as thats not what this thread is about even though you do seem to like going away from the actual real subject which is the killing of a baby for no reason other then wanting to. but for the record of course i do not believe for one moment that those child soldiers can grow up as well balanced human beings.
Thank you. In what way are they blameless for their actions? Or were they born bad? Or do you think they had a choice?
The relevance is that they're also child killers and you see them as incapable of rehabilitation. I'm exploring the "monster" label, the concept of being born bad or made bad and the question of fault.
Thank you. In what way are they blameless for their actions? Or were they born bad? Or do you think they had a choice?
The relevance is that they're also child killers and you see them as incapable of rehabilitation. I'm exploring the "monster" label, the concept of being born bad or made bad and the question of fault.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;899510 wrote: Of course I would. It's a matter of trust, whoever you choose to leave them with. I'd feel safer leaving a child with any of the three you mention than with a local babysitter I'd never heard of.
I am having problems actually believing what I have just read.
I sure as hell wouldn't leave my children or any child with them.
It would be like leaving your child with a "reformed" pedofile,like that would ever happen.
Just my opinion.
I am having problems actually believing what I have just read.
I sure as hell wouldn't leave my children or any child with them.
It would be like leaving your child with a "reformed" pedofile,like that would ever happen.
Just my opinion.
It's nice to be important,but more important to be nice.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
I note a lack of confidence in the rehabilitation process. To some extent I share it overall and in general in that it's a subject which has received far less funding and practical experimentation than it warrants. The efforts put into rehabilitation for the average prisoner are minimal compared to what I think should be applied. On the other hand, the weight of applied expertise in these three instances was huge by comparison. I've read what Lord Woolfe wrote on the subject and I trust his judgement.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
I find this thread particularly disturbing. Mostly for the poor mother who sought out one of the persons that was involved with the killing of her son. It must have been torture for her. I have a strong opinion about the kids today that have so much disrespect in their general life to be able to commit such atrocious acts of hatred on a fellow human being. They deserve to get their cum-uppance to the furthest degree possible. I really would not care to think about any rehabilation process until they have spent a really good time in prison. Let them do a rehab process first and then let them think about what they did for the next 20 years or so - and that is only if the death penalty could not be used on them. They are ANIMALS, and they don't deserve much more as far as I am concerned. This of course, is my opinion, but there is TOO much going on in a regular day to day basis that involves kids now. Kids are not just kids anymore.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Rehabilitation to me is nothing more than a tactic so as to minimize the burden on societal issues related to taxes...In my own opinion it shouldn't be a matter of rehabilitating a murderer rather locking the SOB up for the rest of their naturual born life...
What gives a murderer a right to any right?...He won't do it again because he's been rehabilitated?...Prove it. You say there have been instances where murderers have been released and have never committed the crime of murder again?...Prove it. And on the same note I'm willing to bet that there have been more instances of murderers being released only to have murdered once they've been given the chance...
By Ray Fisman
Posted Thursday, March 20, 2008, at 6:53 AM ET
PrisonThe slammer
On Oct. 1, 1993, a man named Richard Allen Davis kidnapped 12-year-old Polly Klaas during a slumber party at her home in Petaluma, Calif. At the time, Davis was on parole after serving half of a 16-year sentence for a prior kidnapping and had accumulated a 25-year rap sheet with charges ranging from burglary to auto theft to public intoxication. Polly was found raped and murdered a couple of months later, and the public outcry that ensued led to the passage of a California law that mandated stiff prison sentences for convicted felons on their third offense. Davis had more than a dozen convictions when he abducted Polly Klaas.
"Three-strikes" laws have now been enacted in 26 states, often with the stated purpose of keeping society safe from violent criminals like Richard Davis. But a new study released by the National Bureau of Economic Research finds that three-strikes laws like California's, while discouraging criminals from doing things like smoking pot or shoplifting, may push those who do continue in a life of crime to commit more violent offenses. The study's author, Radha Iyengar, argues that this is because under such laws, felons with a pair of strikes against them have little to lose (and often much to gain) by committing serious crimes rather than minor offenses.
Why would stiffer penalties increase violent crime? To understand this seeming paradox, you first need to understand the nature of California's three-strikes law. Not just any offense gets you a first strike. It must be a so-called "record-aggravating" offense, which includes violent crimes like assault and rape as well as serious nonviolent crimes such as burglary or drug sales to minors. But after strike one, strikes two and three can come from any felony, including minor offenses like possession of marijuana or even stealing golf clubs or videotapes. A third strike carries with it a mandatory sentence of at least 25 years in prison.
Now, put yourself in the shoes of a two-strike criminal. The prospect of 25 years behind bars for a third offense is likely to give even a hardened criminal pause before he or she crosses the street against the lights. So we'd expect two-strike felons to commit fewer crimes. But suppose you've already decided to break the law—maybe you need to make a quick buck. Are you going to lift a few golf clubs from the local pro shop? Or are you going to hold up a bank? The potential haul from a bank robbery is obviously much greater, and the penalty is the same: Bank robbery will get you decades in the slammer, but if it's your third offense, so will shoplifting.
Even if you don't quite have the chutzpah to pull off a bank job, you still might end up committing a more violent crime if you're in a 0-2 hole. Let's say you opt for the golf club caper, but as you're making your getaway, you're cornered by a store security guard. Do you surrender quietly or pull out a gun? If strike three is looming, it's all the same to you whether you end up on trial for shoplifting or armed assault, so why not try to shoot your way out of an arrest?
Proponents of three-strikes laws point to declines across the board in crime rates in California during the 1990s, following the passage of the three-strikes law—including rates of violent crime. But crime was dropping around the country during that period, with explanations ranging from new policing tactics to the legalization of abortion. With so much going on, it's hard to know how much, if any, of the decline comes from fear of a third strike. Instead of analyzing aggregate crime data, Iyengar looks at the lawbreaking choices of individual criminals. She examines how their lawbreaking activities change when the three-strikes law is on the books and also how their lawbreaking activities change depending on how many strikes they have against them.
Using data from all criminal convictions during 1990 through 1999 in California's three biggest cities—Los Angeles, San Francisco, and San Diego—Iyengar finds that the three-strikes law did indeed have a large effect on the likelihood of recidivating (committing a crime after release from prison) in the two years following a prior offense. For those with one strike, the law reduced recidivism by 14 percent; this doubled to a 28 percent reduction for two-strikers, whose next crime would trigger the minimum 25-year prison term.
But that's where the good news ends. Three-strike-eligible criminals who actually do get arrested for a third offense commit more serious crimes. Burglars, for example, become robbers—these are both offenses that involve stealing, but robbery has the added element of force. Similarly, while thefts decline overall, assaults during thefts go up under three strikes, suggesting that an increasing number of thieves may, in desperation, be trying to muscle their way out of a third arrest (as in our golf club example). In general, arrests of three-strike-eligible felons are 20 percent more likely to be violent crimes (relative to no-strike criminals).
(A Californian burglar on the verge of a third strike has an even safer option for his next act—take his activities out of state. Just across the border in Arizona, there's no three-strikes law at all, and in neighboring Nevada, the law is rarely invoked. So rather than breaking and entering in Los Angeles, why not take a road trip to Las Vegas or Phoenix instead? It seems that many criminals do. Iyengar finds that a larger fraction of repeat offenders recidivate out of state after the three-strikes law's passage.)
Overall, the three-strikes law did have the desired effect of deterring repeat offenders from striking again. But the law's original intent—motivated as it was by Polly Klaas' tragic story—was to avert further violent tragedies by putting habitual criminals away for a good, long time. It's putting away violent criminals, but Iyengar's study suggests it's also making criminals more violent. It's tempting to invoke the law of unintended consequences in thinking about what was perhaps a well-intentioned but flawed piece of legislation. But these consequences could have been entirely anticipated if legislators recognized that criminals, like all of us, often make decisions by rationally weighing the costs and benefits of their actions.
http://www.slate.com/id/2186901/
Perhaps if Polly was your child you may not see the significance of rehabilitation?...Or perhaps you would say that's the price you pay for the importance on giving those who have proved they're capable of the worst crime humanity has ever been faced with the right to not be separated from that of other human beings?...
What gives a murderer a right to any right?...He won't do it again because he's been rehabilitated?...Prove it. You say there have been instances where murderers have been released and have never committed the crime of murder again?...Prove it. And on the same note I'm willing to bet that there have been more instances of murderers being released only to have murdered once they've been given the chance...
By Ray Fisman
Posted Thursday, March 20, 2008, at 6:53 AM ET
PrisonThe slammer
On Oct. 1, 1993, a man named Richard Allen Davis kidnapped 12-year-old Polly Klaas during a slumber party at her home in Petaluma, Calif. At the time, Davis was on parole after serving half of a 16-year sentence for a prior kidnapping and had accumulated a 25-year rap sheet with charges ranging from burglary to auto theft to public intoxication. Polly was found raped and murdered a couple of months later, and the public outcry that ensued led to the passage of a California law that mandated stiff prison sentences for convicted felons on their third offense. Davis had more than a dozen convictions when he abducted Polly Klaas.
"Three-strikes" laws have now been enacted in 26 states, often with the stated purpose of keeping society safe from violent criminals like Richard Davis. But a new study released by the National Bureau of Economic Research finds that three-strikes laws like California's, while discouraging criminals from doing things like smoking pot or shoplifting, may push those who do continue in a life of crime to commit more violent offenses. The study's author, Radha Iyengar, argues that this is because under such laws, felons with a pair of strikes against them have little to lose (and often much to gain) by committing serious crimes rather than minor offenses.
Why would stiffer penalties increase violent crime? To understand this seeming paradox, you first need to understand the nature of California's three-strikes law. Not just any offense gets you a first strike. It must be a so-called "record-aggravating" offense, which includes violent crimes like assault and rape as well as serious nonviolent crimes such as burglary or drug sales to minors. But after strike one, strikes two and three can come from any felony, including minor offenses like possession of marijuana or even stealing golf clubs or videotapes. A third strike carries with it a mandatory sentence of at least 25 years in prison.
Now, put yourself in the shoes of a two-strike criminal. The prospect of 25 years behind bars for a third offense is likely to give even a hardened criminal pause before he or she crosses the street against the lights. So we'd expect two-strike felons to commit fewer crimes. But suppose you've already decided to break the law—maybe you need to make a quick buck. Are you going to lift a few golf clubs from the local pro shop? Or are you going to hold up a bank? The potential haul from a bank robbery is obviously much greater, and the penalty is the same: Bank robbery will get you decades in the slammer, but if it's your third offense, so will shoplifting.
Even if you don't quite have the chutzpah to pull off a bank job, you still might end up committing a more violent crime if you're in a 0-2 hole. Let's say you opt for the golf club caper, but as you're making your getaway, you're cornered by a store security guard. Do you surrender quietly or pull out a gun? If strike three is looming, it's all the same to you whether you end up on trial for shoplifting or armed assault, so why not try to shoot your way out of an arrest?
Proponents of three-strikes laws point to declines across the board in crime rates in California during the 1990s, following the passage of the three-strikes law—including rates of violent crime. But crime was dropping around the country during that period, with explanations ranging from new policing tactics to the legalization of abortion. With so much going on, it's hard to know how much, if any, of the decline comes from fear of a third strike. Instead of analyzing aggregate crime data, Iyengar looks at the lawbreaking choices of individual criminals. She examines how their lawbreaking activities change when the three-strikes law is on the books and also how their lawbreaking activities change depending on how many strikes they have against them.
Using data from all criminal convictions during 1990 through 1999 in California's three biggest cities—Los Angeles, San Francisco, and San Diego—Iyengar finds that the three-strikes law did indeed have a large effect on the likelihood of recidivating (committing a crime after release from prison) in the two years following a prior offense. For those with one strike, the law reduced recidivism by 14 percent; this doubled to a 28 percent reduction for two-strikers, whose next crime would trigger the minimum 25-year prison term.
But that's where the good news ends. Three-strike-eligible criminals who actually do get arrested for a third offense commit more serious crimes. Burglars, for example, become robbers—these are both offenses that involve stealing, but robbery has the added element of force. Similarly, while thefts decline overall, assaults during thefts go up under three strikes, suggesting that an increasing number of thieves may, in desperation, be trying to muscle their way out of a third arrest (as in our golf club example). In general, arrests of three-strike-eligible felons are 20 percent more likely to be violent crimes (relative to no-strike criminals).
(A Californian burglar on the verge of a third strike has an even safer option for his next act—take his activities out of state. Just across the border in Arizona, there's no three-strikes law at all, and in neighboring Nevada, the law is rarely invoked. So rather than breaking and entering in Los Angeles, why not take a road trip to Las Vegas or Phoenix instead? It seems that many criminals do. Iyengar finds that a larger fraction of repeat offenders recidivate out of state after the three-strikes law's passage.)
Overall, the three-strikes law did have the desired effect of deterring repeat offenders from striking again. But the law's original intent—motivated as it was by Polly Klaas' tragic story—was to avert further violent tragedies by putting habitual criminals away for a good, long time. It's putting away violent criminals, but Iyengar's study suggests it's also making criminals more violent. It's tempting to invoke the law of unintended consequences in thinking about what was perhaps a well-intentioned but flawed piece of legislation. But these consequences could have been entirely anticipated if legislators recognized that criminals, like all of us, often make decisions by rationally weighing the costs and benefits of their actions.
http://www.slate.com/id/2186901/
Perhaps if Polly was your child you may not see the significance of rehabilitation?...Or perhaps you would say that's the price you pay for the importance on giving those who have proved they're capable of the worst crime humanity has ever been faced with the right to not be separated from that of other human beings?...
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Snyder, good point(s), it most likely is cost worthy to just get rid of them and save the tax-payers a lot of money.
-
TheBlackWhisper
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:55 pm
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Spot, concerning Mary Bell, how can you say she has changed? You say she is being watched byt the parole office and that they would know if she was up to anything. Do you really think the govenment is seriously funding a full time watch on a woman who committed her crimes in 1957? Or is it more likly they check up on her every month (I'd be surprised if this country did it that regularly to be honest!)
And how do you know she is reformed in her mind? How can any of us say she's not thinking about what she did all those years ago and is having impulses to do it again? We all have dark thoughts but how we deal with them is what seperates us.
My statement about fancying women is an example of how my own instincts overrule common sense and my sense of right and wrong. I was born to like women. If anybody ever offered me a man or a child or an animal I would be repulsed. It's not what I was born to accept. Phedophiles in the same way like children. It is in their genetic make-up. Sometimes, Spot, you are just born to crave different things and for some reason these two kids ended up liking killing. Can their actions really be blamed on watching "Chucky 3"? I really don't think watching movies makes you into a killer. Maybe if you're forced to watch them 24/7 for a year with your eyes welded open until your brain turns to mush but not the average ten year old.
As for the child soldiers. I can see what you're trying to say but it's a bit different to the case of two ten years olds dragging a toddler to his death. Those soldier kids are brought up alongside war from their birth. They hold AK47's like we held toy guns. As we learned right and wrong at school, they learn to kill and survive and that stays with them. But do I believe they can be reabilitated? Interesting. I find myself saying it comes down to the individual. Let's say the war finishes and there is no more need to fight. Most would throw down their guns and relish a normal life but some would feel the need to carry on, despite not having a cause to fight for. It's a crazy subject and one maybe we won't agree on but there is an answer.
And how do you know she is reformed in her mind? How can any of us say she's not thinking about what she did all those years ago and is having impulses to do it again? We all have dark thoughts but how we deal with them is what seperates us.
My statement about fancying women is an example of how my own instincts overrule common sense and my sense of right and wrong. I was born to like women. If anybody ever offered me a man or a child or an animal I would be repulsed. It's not what I was born to accept. Phedophiles in the same way like children. It is in their genetic make-up. Sometimes, Spot, you are just born to crave different things and for some reason these two kids ended up liking killing. Can their actions really be blamed on watching "Chucky 3"? I really don't think watching movies makes you into a killer. Maybe if you're forced to watch them 24/7 for a year with your eyes welded open until your brain turns to mush but not the average ten year old.
As for the child soldiers. I can see what you're trying to say but it's a bit different to the case of two ten years olds dragging a toddler to his death. Those soldier kids are brought up alongside war from their birth. They hold AK47's like we held toy guns. As we learned right and wrong at school, they learn to kill and survive and that stays with them. But do I believe they can be reabilitated? Interesting. I find myself saying it comes down to the individual. Let's say the war finishes and there is no more need to fight. Most would throw down their guns and relish a normal life but some would feel the need to carry on, despite not having a cause to fight for. It's a crazy subject and one maybe we won't agree on but there is an answer.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
The upbringing of the two ten year olds and of Mary Bell were equally as disturbed and twisted as the upbringing of the child soldiers you described. Had any of the three been brought up in a normal home there's no chance whatever that they'd have behaved as they did. They killed, as did the child soldiers, as a result of their environment. There's plenty of guilt to assign to those around them but none at all on the children themselves. They were damaged, they have been mended, that's the story, the details are tragic but the wrong people were held up for punishment and public hatred.
The child soldiers weren't "brought up alongside war from their birth", they were kidnapped from normal family environments and tortured into behaving the way they ended up behaving. The survivors have written accounts of what happened to them and the way they ended up thinking and acting. None of them "threw down their guns", they were rescued and rehabilitated and given back their interrupted lives.
The very idea of ten year olds being shown, to take your example, Chucky 3 - and no, I've not seen it - is repulsive and yet you trivialize it. The very existence of such movies is repulsive, as is the idea that people who enjoy watching them also bring up children. That's the heart of darkness, a childhood environment in which watching that sort of material is the background norm of the adults in charge.
Your problem with claiming that only someone born with killing-disease or homosexuality or bestiality will be a killer or homosexual or molester of cute retrievers is one of coincidence. Those behaviours come from learned responses, they're a measurable demonstrable reaction to events. You're offering an unnecessary unmeasurable second path to those conditions and, worse yet, claiming it's the only route despite the environmental one being clearly demonstrable. The coincidence is that it's the same people being discussed as born monsters, those with the demonstrably flawed upbringing known from case after case to result in the same antisocial behaviour.
People who kill when they're ten or eleven years old come from a diseased environment. That's demonstrated by looking at the home lives of the child killers whether in Liverpool or in Ghana. If you put enough pressure on a child you can make a killer out of him or her. It's experimental, it's demonstrated, it's what these children we're discussing had happen to them. It's also demonstrated that they can lead normal lives if they experience a rehabilitation process. One looks at the results, one doesn't hypothesize about mental states that can't be detected or measured.
Your argument that they're born monsters who were killers from the womb is a story you tell yourself which has no foundation outside of your inventive mind. It lacks science. It has no grounding in a reality that can be tested. Your theory can't change anything which would stop the killings from happening. All it enables you to do is say throw away the key with a clear conscience. It's a convenience to you, not a description of the real world. Changing the environment in which children are brought up, on the other hand, is a practical way of preventing this sort of catastrophe in the future. Social engineering is a long time coming but I think it'll be effective when it's sufficiently researched and tested and when the tools are finally available to give sufficiently fine-grained feedback.
The child soldiers weren't "brought up alongside war from their birth", they were kidnapped from normal family environments and tortured into behaving the way they ended up behaving. The survivors have written accounts of what happened to them and the way they ended up thinking and acting. None of them "threw down their guns", they were rescued and rehabilitated and given back their interrupted lives.
The very idea of ten year olds being shown, to take your example, Chucky 3 - and no, I've not seen it - is repulsive and yet you trivialize it. The very existence of such movies is repulsive, as is the idea that people who enjoy watching them also bring up children. That's the heart of darkness, a childhood environment in which watching that sort of material is the background norm of the adults in charge.
Your problem with claiming that only someone born with killing-disease or homosexuality or bestiality will be a killer or homosexual or molester of cute retrievers is one of coincidence. Those behaviours come from learned responses, they're a measurable demonstrable reaction to events. You're offering an unnecessary unmeasurable second path to those conditions and, worse yet, claiming it's the only route despite the environmental one being clearly demonstrable. The coincidence is that it's the same people being discussed as born monsters, those with the demonstrably flawed upbringing known from case after case to result in the same antisocial behaviour.
People who kill when they're ten or eleven years old come from a diseased environment. That's demonstrated by looking at the home lives of the child killers whether in Liverpool or in Ghana. If you put enough pressure on a child you can make a killer out of him or her. It's experimental, it's demonstrated, it's what these children we're discussing had happen to them. It's also demonstrated that they can lead normal lives if they experience a rehabilitation process. One looks at the results, one doesn't hypothesize about mental states that can't be detected or measured.
Your argument that they're born monsters who were killers from the womb is a story you tell yourself which has no foundation outside of your inventive mind. It lacks science. It has no grounding in a reality that can be tested. Your theory can't change anything which would stop the killings from happening. All it enables you to do is say throw away the key with a clear conscience. It's a convenience to you, not a description of the real world. Changing the environment in which children are brought up, on the other hand, is a practical way of preventing this sort of catastrophe in the future. Social engineering is a long time coming but I think it'll be effective when it's sufficiently researched and tested and when the tools are finally available to give sufficiently fine-grained feedback.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;899868 wrote: The upbringing of the two ten year olds and of Mary Bell were equally as disturbed and twisted as the upbringing of the child soldiers you described. Had any of the three been brought up in a normal home there's no chance whatever that they'd have behaved as they did. They killed, as did the child soldiers, as a result of their environment. There's plenty of guilt to assign to those around them but none at all on the children themselves. They were damaged, they have been mended, that's the story, the details are tragic but the wrong people were held up for punishment and public hatred.
The child soldiers weren't "brought up alongside war from their birth", they were kidnapped from normal family environments and tortured into behaving the way they ended up behaving. The survivors have written accounts of what happened to them and the way they ended up thinking and acting. None of them "threw down their guns", they were rescued and rehabilitated and given back their interrupted lives.
The very idea of ten year olds being shown, to take your example, Chucky 3 - and no, I've not seen it - is repulsive and yet you trivialize it. The very existence of such movies is repulsive, as is the idea that people who enjoy watching them also bring up children. That's the heart of darkness, a childhood environment in which watching that sort of material is the background norm of the adults in charge.
Your problem with claiming that only someone born with killing-disease or homosexuality or bestiality will be a killer or homosexual or molester of cute retrievers is one of coincidence. Those behaviours come from learned responses, they're a measurable demonstrable reaction to events. You're offering an unnecessary unmeasurable second path to those conditions and, worse yet, claiming it's the only route despite the environmental one being clearly demonstrable. The coincidence is that it's the same people being discussed as born monsters, those with the demonstrably flawed upbringing known from case after case to result in the same antisocial behaviour.
People who kill when they're ten or eleven years old come from a diseased environment. That's demonstrated by looking at the home lives of the child killers whether in Liverpool or in Ghana. If you put enough pressure on a child you can make a killer out of him or her. It's experimental, it's demonstrated, it's what these children we're discussing had happen to them. It's also demonstrated that they can lead normal lives if they experience a rehabilitation process. One looks at the results, one doesn't hypothesize about mental states that can't be detected or measured.
Your argument that they're born monsters who were killers from the womb is a story you tell yourself which has no foundation outside of your inventive mind. It lacks science. It has no grounding in a reality that can be tested. Your theory can't change anything which would stop the killings from happening. All it enables you to do is say throw away the key with a clear conscience. It's a convenience to you, not a description of the real world. Changing the environment in which children are brought up, on the other hand, is a practical way of preventing this sort of catastrophe in the future. Social engineering is a long time coming but I think it'll be effective when it's sufficiently researched and tested and when the tools are finally available to give sufficiently fine-grained feedback.
I think its your views that are not a clear view of the real world Spot...Its just your view against everyone elses from what I see. Your entitled to them but personally I find your views totally mindboggling...
I just hope you or a person close to you never befriend those peoplewe have mentioned or other so called reformed people and find out how very wrong you really are.
The child soldiers weren't "brought up alongside war from their birth", they were kidnapped from normal family environments and tortured into behaving the way they ended up behaving. The survivors have written accounts of what happened to them and the way they ended up thinking and acting. None of them "threw down their guns", they were rescued and rehabilitated and given back their interrupted lives.
The very idea of ten year olds being shown, to take your example, Chucky 3 - and no, I've not seen it - is repulsive and yet you trivialize it. The very existence of such movies is repulsive, as is the idea that people who enjoy watching them also bring up children. That's the heart of darkness, a childhood environment in which watching that sort of material is the background norm of the adults in charge.
Your problem with claiming that only someone born with killing-disease or homosexuality or bestiality will be a killer or homosexual or molester of cute retrievers is one of coincidence. Those behaviours come from learned responses, they're a measurable demonstrable reaction to events. You're offering an unnecessary unmeasurable second path to those conditions and, worse yet, claiming it's the only route despite the environmental one being clearly demonstrable. The coincidence is that it's the same people being discussed as born monsters, those with the demonstrably flawed upbringing known from case after case to result in the same antisocial behaviour.
People who kill when they're ten or eleven years old come from a diseased environment. That's demonstrated by looking at the home lives of the child killers whether in Liverpool or in Ghana. If you put enough pressure on a child you can make a killer out of him or her. It's experimental, it's demonstrated, it's what these children we're discussing had happen to them. It's also demonstrated that they can lead normal lives if they experience a rehabilitation process. One looks at the results, one doesn't hypothesize about mental states that can't be detected or measured.
Your argument that they're born monsters who were killers from the womb is a story you tell yourself which has no foundation outside of your inventive mind. It lacks science. It has no grounding in a reality that can be tested. Your theory can't change anything which would stop the killings from happening. All it enables you to do is say throw away the key with a clear conscience. It's a convenience to you, not a description of the real world. Changing the environment in which children are brought up, on the other hand, is a practical way of preventing this sort of catastrophe in the future. Social engineering is a long time coming but I think it'll be effective when it's sufficiently researched and tested and when the tools are finally available to give sufficiently fine-grained feedback.
I think its your views that are not a clear view of the real world Spot...Its just your view against everyone elses from what I see. Your entitled to them but personally I find your views totally mindboggling...
I just hope you or a person close to you never befriend those peoplewe have mentioned or other so called reformed people and find out how very wrong you really are.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Chezzie;899874 wrote: I think its your views that are not a clear view of the real world Spot...Its just your view against everyone elses from what I see. Your entitled to them but personally I find your views totally mindboggling...
I just hope you or a person close to you never befriend those peoplewe have mentioned or other so called reformed people and find out how very wrong you really are.
Do you think http://www.alongwaygone.com/long_way_gone.html is at all relevant?
I just hope you or a person close to you never befriend those peoplewe have mentioned or other so called reformed people and find out how very wrong you really are.
Do you think http://www.alongwaygone.com/long_way_gone.html is at all relevant?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;899877 wrote: Do you think http://www.alongwaygone.com/long_way_gone.html is at all relevant?
It might be if that was what were talking about. Its like me going into the sports forum and starting a post on Tennis and you coming and wanting to talk about Squash, their both sports but unrelated.
I dont wish to talk about the child soldiers as I dont know enough about it to do so, I do however know all about the OP due to reasons i prefer not to go into here.
I will never ever agree with you on your views on this Spot.
It might be if that was what were talking about. Its like me going into the sports forum and starting a post on Tennis and you coming and wanting to talk about Squash, their both sports but unrelated.
I dont wish to talk about the child soldiers as I dont know enough about it to do so, I do however know all about the OP due to reasons i prefer not to go into here.
I will never ever agree with you on your views on this Spot.
-
TheBlackWhisper
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:55 pm
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
I think this thread has gone a long way off track from the original subject, Spot. Taking into account the possibilty that some people can be eventually reformed (and even then I do not believe for a second they are completely rehabilitated), a fundamental question is: Why the hell should the likes of Venables and Thompson be given a second chance?!
What have they ever done to counteract their actions on the day of Bulger's murder? Spent a few no-doubt-easy-years in a cosy cell with an Xbox? Take it as a large set of weighing scales. In one dish you have the torture of Bulger; what have they done to fill the other dish to balance the scales of justice?
Just because they were young at the time doesn't excuse them. Maybe it's possible that they're sitting in their homes right now thinking of cute bunnies and baking cakes for the church fair but why should they be given any chance to better themselves?
I take it you don't believe in the old eye for an eye philosophy, which is strange considering you like to keep wheeling out that bible every now and again.
To put it bluntly, they should have been executed after a fair trial, not because they may re-offend but simply because they don't deserve to have a chance at enetering what we like to call a civilized society.
What have they ever done to counteract their actions on the day of Bulger's murder? Spent a few no-doubt-easy-years in a cosy cell with an Xbox? Take it as a large set of weighing scales. In one dish you have the torture of Bulger; what have they done to fill the other dish to balance the scales of justice?
Just because they were young at the time doesn't excuse them. Maybe it's possible that they're sitting in their homes right now thinking of cute bunnies and baking cakes for the church fair but why should they be given any chance to better themselves?
I take it you don't believe in the old eye for an eye philosophy, which is strange considering you like to keep wheeling out that bible every now and again.
To put it bluntly, they should have been executed after a fair trial, not because they may re-offend but simply because they don't deserve to have a chance at enetering what we like to call a civilized society.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Look at a mother who has had her child murdered....listen to her tears every night....look into her face and just see emptiness.....watch her go around in a daze not caring if she lived or died....watch her as she hears how her darling was murdered knowing the suffering her most precious thing in the world had gone through and watch her just fall apart not caring if she lived or died and all she wanted was her baby back............THEN say these killers deserve freedom and a life again.....a life that precious child.... of that lonely figure.... had taken away ...without any thought of letting a beautiful child ever having that choice.
Women are bitchy and predictable ...men are not and that's the key to knowing the truth.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
OMG!!! i can't hardly imagine the hell that mother has lived in ever since her precious boy was taken from her.
one of the worse fears i have with my Jacob is that someone is gonna steal him in like a store or something.
i think if that happened i would go completely mad, at the thought of what they could be doing to him!
if that had been my baby and i had found that guy after all those years, i don't know if i'd be able to restrain myself like she did.
one of the worse fears i have with my Jacob is that someone is gonna steal him in like a store or something.
i think if that happened i would go completely mad, at the thought of what they could be doing to him!
if that had been my baby and i had found that guy after all those years, i don't know if i'd be able to restrain myself like she did.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Carolly;900695 wrote: Look at a mother who has had her child murdered....listen to her tears every night....look into her face and just see emptiness.....watch her go around in a daze not caring if she lived or died....watch her as she hears how her darling was murdered knowing the suffering her most precious thing in the world had gone through and watch her just fall apart not caring if she lived or died and all she wanted was her baby back............THEN say these killers deserve freedom and a life again.....a life that precious child.... of that lonely figure.... had taken away ...without any thought of letting a beautiful child ever having that choice.
Why do you suppose it is that the legal system of the country we both live in went against the weight of public opinion and released the two of them on license after eight years.
Why do you suppose it is that the legal system of the country we both live in went against the weight of public opinion and released the two of them on license after eight years.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Is it not safe to say that rehabilitation can be masked by the sheer desire to be released from prison?...
They've done it once...They can do it again as simple as that...
What about their lives?...What about the lives they have taken?...In such instances I could care less about their lives...And no one should...But that's my opinion and God knows someone will disagree with it...
They've done it once...They can do it again as simple as that...
What about their lives?...What about the lives they have taken?...In such instances I could care less about their lives...And no one should...But that's my opinion and God knows someone will disagree with it...
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
K.Snyder;900739 wrote: Is it not safe to say that rehabilitation can be masked by the sheer desire to be released from prison?...
They've done it once...They can do it again as simple as that...
What about their lives?...What about the lives they have taken?...In such instances I could care less about their lives...And no one should...But that's my opinion and God knows someone will disagree with it...
Why do you suppose it is that the English legal system went against the weight of public opinion and released the two of them on license after eight years.
They've done it once...They can do it again as simple as that...
What about their lives?...What about the lives they have taken?...In such instances I could care less about their lives...And no one should...But that's my opinion and God knows someone will disagree with it...
Why do you suppose it is that the English legal system went against the weight of public opinion and released the two of them on license after eight years.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;900741 wrote: Why do you suppose it is that the English legal system went against the weight of public opinion and released the two of them on license after eight years.
Because the legislative system makes laws that they feel represents the opinions of the majority without actually creating a proven hypothesis...
Have the people vote on the lives of these people...I'm quite sure there will never be instances of one person committing murder a second time after that of their first...
Because the legislative system makes laws that they feel represents the opinions of the majority without actually creating a proven hypothesis...
Have the people vote on the lives of these people...I'm quite sure there will never be instances of one person committing murder a second time after that of their first...
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
K.Snyder;900744 wrote: Because the legislative system makes laws that they feel represents the opinions of the majority without actually creating a proven hypothesis...
Have the people vote on the lives of these people...I'm quite sure there will never be instances of one person committing murder a second time after that of their first...
No, the English legislative system makes laws - in particular, sets sentencing tariffs - that the legislators know full well represent the opinions of a minority. Nobody would pretend that sentencing tariffs represent a majority choice.
Have the people vote on the lives of these people...I'm quite sure there will never be instances of one person committing murder a second time after that of their first...
No, the English legislative system makes laws - in particular, sets sentencing tariffs - that the legislators know full well represent the opinions of a minority. Nobody would pretend that sentencing tariffs represent a majority choice.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;900746 wrote: No, the English legislative system makes laws - in particular, sets sentencing tariffs - that the legislators know full well represent the opinions of a minority. Nobody would pretend that sentencing tariffs represent a majority choice.
If that were true there in lies the problem...
If that were true there in lies the problem...
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
K.Snyder;900750 wrote: If that were true there in lies the problem...
So tell me whether you think it's true or not.
So tell me whether you think it's true or not.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;900732 wrote: Why do you suppose it is that the legal system of the country we both live in went against the weight of public opinion and released the two of them on license after eight years.
Spot I refuse to discuss this thread with you or indeed your thoughts.I have made my thoughts clear on this matter like so many of us have and NOBODY will ever change my mind no matter what you want to throw at me.I wont be back here anymore.
Spot I refuse to discuss this thread with you or indeed your thoughts.I have made my thoughts clear on this matter like so many of us have and NOBODY will ever change my mind no matter what you want to throw at me.I wont be back here anymore.
Women are bitchy and predictable ...men are not and that's the key to knowing the truth.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;900751 wrote: So tell me whether you think it's true or not.
I would personally feel that putting a convicted murderer behind bars for the rest of their life would represent the majorities approval on the matter...
You can call me arrogant all you want but the fact of the matter is is that their would never be any cases of second time offenders...
I know one thing's for sure...People who could have lost a loved one by contrast would be overwhelmingly delighted at the same time perhaps I would **** off those who feel murderers deserve a second chance?...
That's something I can live with...
I would personally feel that putting a convicted murderer behind bars for the rest of their life would represent the majorities approval on the matter...
You can call me arrogant all you want but the fact of the matter is is that their would never be any cases of second time offenders...
I know one thing's for sure...People who could have lost a loved one by contrast would be overwhelmingly delighted at the same time perhaps I would **** off those who feel murderers deserve a second chance?...
That's something I can live with...
-
Kathy Ellen
- Posts: 10569
- Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:04 pm
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
Murderers do not deserve a 2nd chance, and I would never leave my child with a person who was involved with a murder or any criminal activity.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
K.Snyder;900755 wrote: I would personally feel that putting a convicted murderer behind bars for the rest of their life would represent the majorities approval on the matter...I'm quite sure you're right. It's not what England's legislators do though. It's not what the English legal system does. What the English legal system does is what you've seen it do, it releases the two of them back into society under a parole license after eight years. There's no overlap whatever between what happens and what the majority view insists should happen. Why do you think there's no overlap? Why is the majority opinion ignored? Why did the English legal system release the two of them on license after eight years?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
spot;900768 wrote: I'm quite sure you're right. It's not what England's legislators do though. It's not what the English legal system does. What the English legal system does is what you've seen it do, it releases the two of them back into society under a parole license after eight years. There's no overlap whatever between what happens and what the majority view insists should happen. Why do you think there's no overlap? Why is the majority opinion ignored? Why did the English legal system release the two of them on license after eight years?
Perhaps they feel taking the chance on releasing murderers is a risk their willing to take in light on what they feel is appropriate action being taken to rid what is already an overwhelming burden upon tax payers...
I myself would rather see marijuana legalized among others so as to limit the overcrowding of prisons...Which would ultimately reduce the amount of taxes people have to pay for some pot head kid who wouldn't kill a bug let alone a person...But that's a whole another topic...
Perhaps the legislative system is too conservative because of this...Perhaps the fact that the percentage of street gangs consist of kids more than people may realize and the fact that these kids murder is to blame for this...
Youth gangs triple child murder rate
By Jonathan Wynne-Jones and Ben Leapman
Last Updated: 11:33PM BST 18/04/2008
Murders of children by other children have tripled in three years, as more of the nation's youth get drawn into a deadly world of guns and knives.
The number of killings in which both victim and assailant were under 18 has jumped from 12 in 2005 to 37 last year, according to a new study.
Rhys Jones
Gunned down: Rhys Jones, 11
The research paints a picture of a country where youth-on-youth violence is spiralling as the Government struggles to rein back the increasing number of children turning to gangs and falling into a life of drugs. It reveals:
• A quarter of all gun crimes last year were committed by under-18s.
• More than half of killings are believed to be gang-related.
• Children as young as five are joining gangs.
• Youths are killed for going into the "wrong" postcode area.
• A sixfold increase in the number of gangs in some parts of London since 2000.
The study, by researchers from Channel 4's Dispatches documentary, comes after a week in which police chiefs published a strategy to steer children away from crime - as first revealed in The Sunday Telegraph - and in the wake of the brutal killing of Garry Newlove, who was kicked to death by three teenagers.
The Home Office will this week publish figures for homicides in which both victim and prime suspect were under 18, which is expected to confirm the research.
David Davis, the shadow home secretary, said: "These tragic figures demonstrate both the dreadful complacency of the Government and the desperate need for action to be taken on gun crime, knife crime and the causes of this disaster - drugs crime."
Among the 37 killed by other youths last year were Kiyan Prince, 15, a striker for QPR's youth team; Ben Hitchcock, 16, stabbed to death in Beckenham, a leafy London suburb; and Rhys Jones, 11, who was gunned down by a boy in a hood, believed to be 15. The count includes cases where the prime suspect is under 18, if no one has yet been convicted.
Last week the Old Bailey heard how Paul Erhahon, a 14-year-old schoolboy, was stabbed to death outside his home just so that a gang of youths - some as young as 13 - could "earn their spurs".
Four teenagers have already been killed this month, with a 14-year-old boy and a 15-year-old girl arrested in connection with the attacks.
In surveys carried out for Dispatches, at least a third of under-18s questioned in London and Glasgow admitted to being gang members or having committed serious violence against other youths. In London, about half said they had suffered serious violence at the hands of other youths, while one in 20 claimed to have been shot.
One Lambeth gang member says in the documentary to be broadcast tomorrow, Why kids kill: "Every area, someone has to have a gun - you can't be in a crew [gang] and not have any sort of weapon.That's the best protection."
The number of gangs in Lambeth is estimated to have risen from five in 2000 to 30 last year, while Brixton has one on every housing estate.
Teenagers said that they faced being killed for nothing more than venturing into the wrong postcode district. They were afraid to accompany their parents to shops or visit leisure centres outside their area.
In a bid to combat the growing problem of gang crime, the Association of Chief Police Officers last week announced plans to give more schools a full-time police presence, identify and help youths likely to become offenders, and create a network across government agencies to track potential young tearaways.
Crime experts and police have warned that many of the several hundred gangs spread across the country have started to recruit members from the age of 10 -called "tinies" or "babies" - to back up the gang leaders. However, youths interviewed by Dispatches claim that children as young as five are throwing petrol bombs.
The Home Office said violent crime as a whole was down 31 per cent since 1997 and homicides were at their lowest level for eight years. "We recognise there is still more to do," said a spokesman.
An action plan to be announced soon by the Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, would set out "an overall strategy for youth crime reduction, including new youth crime prevention methods, early interventions and family interventions".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -rate.html
Perhaps they feel taking the chance on releasing murderers is a risk their willing to take in light on what they feel is appropriate action being taken to rid what is already an overwhelming burden upon tax payers...
I myself would rather see marijuana legalized among others so as to limit the overcrowding of prisons...Which would ultimately reduce the amount of taxes people have to pay for some pot head kid who wouldn't kill a bug let alone a person...But that's a whole another topic...
Perhaps the legislative system is too conservative because of this...Perhaps the fact that the percentage of street gangs consist of kids more than people may realize and the fact that these kids murder is to blame for this...
Youth gangs triple child murder rate
By Jonathan Wynne-Jones and Ben Leapman
Last Updated: 11:33PM BST 18/04/2008
Murders of children by other children have tripled in three years, as more of the nation's youth get drawn into a deadly world of guns and knives.
The number of killings in which both victim and assailant were under 18 has jumped from 12 in 2005 to 37 last year, according to a new study.
Rhys Jones
Gunned down: Rhys Jones, 11
The research paints a picture of a country where youth-on-youth violence is spiralling as the Government struggles to rein back the increasing number of children turning to gangs and falling into a life of drugs. It reveals:
• A quarter of all gun crimes last year were committed by under-18s.
• More than half of killings are believed to be gang-related.
• Children as young as five are joining gangs.
• Youths are killed for going into the "wrong" postcode area.
• A sixfold increase in the number of gangs in some parts of London since 2000.
The study, by researchers from Channel 4's Dispatches documentary, comes after a week in which police chiefs published a strategy to steer children away from crime - as first revealed in The Sunday Telegraph - and in the wake of the brutal killing of Garry Newlove, who was kicked to death by three teenagers.
The Home Office will this week publish figures for homicides in which both victim and prime suspect were under 18, which is expected to confirm the research.
David Davis, the shadow home secretary, said: "These tragic figures demonstrate both the dreadful complacency of the Government and the desperate need for action to be taken on gun crime, knife crime and the causes of this disaster - drugs crime."
Among the 37 killed by other youths last year were Kiyan Prince, 15, a striker for QPR's youth team; Ben Hitchcock, 16, stabbed to death in Beckenham, a leafy London suburb; and Rhys Jones, 11, who was gunned down by a boy in a hood, believed to be 15. The count includes cases where the prime suspect is under 18, if no one has yet been convicted.
Last week the Old Bailey heard how Paul Erhahon, a 14-year-old schoolboy, was stabbed to death outside his home just so that a gang of youths - some as young as 13 - could "earn their spurs".
Four teenagers have already been killed this month, with a 14-year-old boy and a 15-year-old girl arrested in connection with the attacks.
In surveys carried out for Dispatches, at least a third of under-18s questioned in London and Glasgow admitted to being gang members or having committed serious violence against other youths. In London, about half said they had suffered serious violence at the hands of other youths, while one in 20 claimed to have been shot.
One Lambeth gang member says in the documentary to be broadcast tomorrow, Why kids kill: "Every area, someone has to have a gun - you can't be in a crew [gang] and not have any sort of weapon.That's the best protection."
The number of gangs in Lambeth is estimated to have risen from five in 2000 to 30 last year, while Brixton has one on every housing estate.
Teenagers said that they faced being killed for nothing more than venturing into the wrong postcode district. They were afraid to accompany their parents to shops or visit leisure centres outside their area.
In a bid to combat the growing problem of gang crime, the Association of Chief Police Officers last week announced plans to give more schools a full-time police presence, identify and help youths likely to become offenders, and create a network across government agencies to track potential young tearaways.
Crime experts and police have warned that many of the several hundred gangs spread across the country have started to recruit members from the age of 10 -called "tinies" or "babies" - to back up the gang leaders. However, youths interviewed by Dispatches claim that children as young as five are throwing petrol bombs.
The Home Office said violent crime as a whole was down 31 per cent since 1997 and homicides were at their lowest level for eight years. "We recognise there is still more to do," said a spokesman.
An action plan to be announced soon by the Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, would set out "an overall strategy for youth crime reduction, including new youth crime prevention methods, early interventions and family interventions".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -rate.html
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
There we go then. One opinion finally expressed. K.Snyder thinks that the English legal system released the two of them back into society under a parole license after eight years as a cost-cutting measure. Any alternative opinions, anyone?
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
UK - James Bulger's Mother Tracks down Killer
http://www.murderuk.com/child_killers_t ... ables.html
Read all of that and then tell me you could happily leave a child with them..
Be aware that the above link contains a very graphic discription of James's last day before he was cruelly murdered. Made me feel physically sick.
The media doesn't pick up on all child killers. I found out from someone whos a law tutor who knew someone that worked in their children's offenders unit , there were kids in therr for all sorts,murderers, arsonists. One stabbed his sister to death for hogging the PlayStation. The difference is that what Thompson and Venebles did was so twisted and unusual, for any sort of killer, child or adult, that of course it would have been picked up on by the media.
I hear the story going round is that they live in Oz and are either both married or due to wed and have been told not to tell their partners about their past.
How would you feel if it was your daughter that was marrying one of them and hoping to create a family with them...........Doesnt bloody bare thinking about.
Read all of that and then tell me you could happily leave a child with them..
Be aware that the above link contains a very graphic discription of James's last day before he was cruelly murdered. Made me feel physically sick.
The media doesn't pick up on all child killers. I found out from someone whos a law tutor who knew someone that worked in their children's offenders unit , there were kids in therr for all sorts,murderers, arsonists. One stabbed his sister to death for hogging the PlayStation. The difference is that what Thompson and Venebles did was so twisted and unusual, for any sort of killer, child or adult, that of course it would have been picked up on by the media.
I hear the story going round is that they live in Oz and are either both married or due to wed and have been told not to tell their partners about their past.
How would you feel if it was your daughter that was marrying one of them and hoping to create a family with them...........Doesnt bloody bare thinking about.