What Happened to America?

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sat May 31, 2008 11:56 am

The following two quotes speak for themselves, but don't you have to wonder what happened in America that we have changed so from these views?

Today the "wealthy" are bad and we seem more inclined toward redistribution of accumulated wealth than generating opportunity for everyone.

When I began my career which after 47 years will end on July 4th, I was in a union job and the lowest paid person in a company of 15,000 (to be precise I earned $1.49 an hour). Forty-seven years later I am with the same company and I am paid 25th from the top. That didn't just happen and yet people look at me today and resent what I have and what I am paid. Human nature I suppose, but I had no more opportunities than anyone else, I went to college for nine years at night, I routinely worked from 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM and did a lot of other things you have no interest in, but the point is I simply took advantage of each opportunity that came my way or I created.

Isn't that what America is all about (or was)? :rolleyes:

Frankly, I resent people looking at me and thinking I somehow rolled out of bed the day I graduated high school and by magic I was wealthy. It doesn't work that way.

You may resent what I am writing here so let me have it if you do, but at least I had my say. :-3

Our politicians don't seem to see it that way and instead do all they can to pit Americans against each other and convince people that we should take more from one group to give more to another.

“You can't get rich on wages, you have to earn, save, invest, reinvest and pass on to your children the products of your labors. Jack Kemp

"I don't believe in a law to prevent a man from getting rich; it would do more harm than good. So while we do not propose any war upon capital, we do wish to allow the humblest man an equal chance to get rich with everybody else." Abraham Lincoln

along-for-the-ride · Post by **along-for-the-ride** » Sat May 31, 2008 12:23 pm

I don't believe that "getting rich" is ultimately the American Dream. Being successful in whatever occupation you are in doesn't necessarily have monetary connotations. You are good at your job. You like your job. You are able to pay your bills, provide for your family, save some of your wages, and some have some money left over to enjoy. I am in that category. I am not rich financially, but I do count my blessings as an American.

Do Americans make sacrifices for their families? Some do. Are some Americans ambitious and want to get rich? Ofcourse. Americans have different ideas on what "living the American Dream" is. We can either wish for it.....or live it.

Americans have changed since Lincolns time because America has changed since Lincoln's time.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Sat May 31, 2008 12:26 pm

Yes it is and I applaude you on your success. I will disagree that everyone in this country has an equal chance at success, or an education just not the case and you know it.

I'm old and I have seen injustice in the work place 1 to many times.

Yes I worked and struggled in what was an "Mans" field in the 70's the world of computers. I was pretty much at the top of the ladder when I broke my neck in an accident. Mr. if you think being disabled for 10 years is fun or fair think again. If you think SSI is concerned about your disability think again. There to busy handing out free and total benefit to illegal citizens. You can work and pay taxes for all your life, when you need help you most likely won't get it. If you think they won't come after you, your family, your home, your money think again. Sorry I have seen it up close and personal.

Sometimes there is injustice in this country, not everyone makes it. Yes I fought and made it back to the world of employed for the past 8 years. Along the way I lost everything and I mean everything so don't tell me things are equal for everyone they just aren't.

It's not about money, status, its about the content of your character. I could careless what your title is, who you are as a person rings true for me.

[QUOTE]Isn't that what America is all about (or was)?[/QUOTE]

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sat May 31, 2008 1:06 pm

rjwould;878901 wrote: So some folks think this and you are attributing it to how many of us, Quinn? A little extreme, don't you think?

Its nice that you've been rewarded for your hard work and dedication, but human nature has nothing to do with the resentment you describe in most cases.

Try telling all those blacks and women that they had the same opportunities as you and I have had though....

Boy, things seem so simple to you. Hve you been that sheltered all your life?

America is whatever each of us envisions it to be..

Now you read minds? how many people do you pass on the street that are thinking this? Are you sure you're not a little paranoid and defensive? Perhaps a shrink would help?:)

I don't resent it at all. In fact I think what you write is very telling about you, please continue...

I'm happy to see you used the word "seem" here, you're making progress already.

..As for you pitting Americans against each other, look to Fox, CNN and MSNBC for that..Both they and their readers/watchers are very used to seeing differences rather than finding commonalities.

Oh yes, one of todays wise men....Funny how we Americans have ditched the wisdom of Socrates and the like for that of Jack Kemp...We are so blessed today to have Jack and George and the rest of those rich prophets to guide us toward our final hour..

Good old Abe...Getting better with who you're quoting, Quinn....The only problem is your head is in the 1800's......remember that 21st century thing you talked about in the "Islam" thread.........Practice what you preach, instead of being passive/aggressive.

I knew there was a risk in how I would be perceived when I wrote the post, it was not intended to be about me as an individual, rather as an example of many people who have achieved far more than me.

But the real point is that focusing on making sure people have those opportunities we talk about rather than focusing on those who have taken advantage of them as most politicians do is far more important.

I have worked in human resources all my life, I deal with discrimination cases, with unions, with employee complaints, etc. I can tell you for certain that more opportunity is lost than is prevented. Today's work ethic is pitiful.

The Irish, Chinese and many others had it pretty tough in the U.S. at one time. But we still see immigrants come here who hardly speak english and do better in a few months than others with 200 year old roots have done. There is no doubt a great deal of injustice in the world and in America and there always will be but does that provide an excuse?

There are numerous problems to focus on like education, drugs, family structures all of which decrease opportunity for people, so let's work from the bottom up as opposed to sustaining an ongoing victim, it's everyone elses fault mentality.

And by the way old Abe is as relevant in the 21st century as he was in the 19th.

You are right that I probably live in a different world as I refuse to accept second best or mediocrity, or excuses or the idea that people on their own (with few exceptions) cannot achieve what they want to achieve.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sat May 31, 2008 1:12 pm

along-for-the-ride;878906 wrote: I don't believe that "getting rich" is ultimately the American Dream. Being successful in whatever occupation you are in doesn't necessarily have monetary connotations. You are good at your job. You like your job. You are able to pay your bills, provide for your family, save some of your wages, and some have some money left over to enjoy. I am in that category. I am not rich financially, but I do count my blessings as an American.

Do Americans make sacrifices for their families? Some do. Are some Americans ambitious and want to get rich? Ofcourse. Americans have different ideas on what "living the American Dream" is. We can either wish for it.....or live it.

Americans have changed since Lincolns time because America has changed since Lincoln's time.

I don't believe that either, getting rich is not the measure of success, what one accomplishes in her life is far more important and dollars are not a measure of that kind of success. I think our purpose is to assure that the world is just a tiny bit better when we leave it than when we arrive and most of us can do that by raising the overall status of the next generation (and no, I am not talking money, I am talking education, family values, contributions to society and others...)

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sat May 31, 2008 1:23 pm

CARLA;878910 wrote: Yes it is and I applaude you on your success. I will disagree that everyone in this country has an equal chance at success, or an education just not the case and you know it.

I'm old and I have seen injustice in the work place 1 to many times.

Yes I worked and struggled in what was an "Mans" field in the 70's the world of computers. I was pretty much at the top of the ladder when I broke my neck in an accident. Mr. if you think being disabled for 10 years is fun or fair think again. If you think SSI is concerned about your disability think again. There to busy handing out free and total benefit to illegal citizens. You can work and pay taxes for all your life, when you need help you most likely won't get it. If you think they won't come after you, your family, your home, your money think again. Sorry I have seen it up close and personal.

Sometimes there is injustice in this country, not everyone makes it. Yes I fought and made it back to the world of employed for the past 8 years. Along the way I lost everything and I mean everything so don't tell me things are equal for everyone they just aren't.

It's not about money, status, its about the content of your character. I could careless what your title is, who you are as a person rings true for me.

I don't believe I said things are equal (or fair) for everyone or anything close to that. Unfortuantely, bad things happen to good people. My point was to focus on making more opportunities for more people as oppoosed to degrading those who have taken advantage of every opportunity they did have.

But the mere fact that you appear to have overcome much of your adversity makes much of my point.

weeder · Post by **weeder** » Sat May 31, 2008 5:44 pm

You see Quinn, its not your wealth that the less fortunate resent, its your attitude regarding wealth. Many a man who has done all of the things you describe... school, long hours, determination, and commitment, has not made it. Life is a crap shoot. Because luck and often being in the right place at the right time, can contribute to a mans success. I have a very wealthy friend. Shes an intellect, and a professional, whos also grossly lacking in the tact department. She made a comment to me recently, that forever changed my view of her. She basically said that people who are struggling are getting exactly what they deserve. Some inane crazy concept them stems out of her bizarre religious beliefs. I have been steadfast, reliabe, commited, industrious,and productive for all of my life, and have not achieved financial security. Ill tell you this though, you cant put a price on humility, or compassion. By the way... is your avatar, you? lounging in that chair, behind the big desk? Just curious

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sat May 31, 2008 7:05 pm

weeder;879023 wrote: You see Quinn, its not your wealth that the less fortunate resent, its your attitude regarding wealth. Many a man who has done all of the things you describe... school, long hours, determination, and commitment, has not made it. Life is a crap shoot. Because luck and often being in the right place at the right time, can contribute to a mans success. I have a very wealthy friend. Shes an intellect, and a professional, whos also grossly lacking in the tact department. She made a comment to me recently, that forever changed my view of her. She basically said that people who are struggling are getting exactly what they deserve. Some inane crazy concept them stems out of her bizarre religious beliefs. I have been steadfast, reliabe, commited, industrious,and productive for all of my life, and have not achieved financial security. Ill tell you this though, you cant put a price on humility, or compassion. By the way... is your avatar, you? lounging in that chair, behind the big desk? Just curious

Yikes, I may not be poor, but I am not wealthy either. The only real wealth I have is my family and believe me that is most important.

It would appear that my post is being misconstrued in many ways.

And I have to admit, my life to date has been absent of any real bad luck (and I hope it stays that way- for everyone). On the other hand I deal with people every day who have not been that lucky and who have horrendous problems.

My problem is with people who make their own bad luck through inaction, bad decisions, no decisions, shortsightedness, etc. and believe me there are many, many such people.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sat May 31, 2008 7:23 pm

rjwould;879035 wrote: There you go generalizing again. What is pitiful is the lack of work and effort put into relationships. Remember what Jesus said about serving two masters?

My wife and I stand to inherit a large inheritance from my father-in-law after he passes. I've worked hard my entire life but I've never chased money. My father in law did and he has been divorced twice before he married his book keeper, Walked out on my wife and the rest of the family because his ex wife spent too much money, paid no child support and had been completely estranged from his entire family until they sought him out...The man is miserable because he worked hard at the wrong thing.

How dare you accuse people of not working hard simply because they may have different priorities than you..

You read too much into things. Did I say people didn't work hard, I said there was a poor work ethic. Did I ever imply that work and money is more important than family or other priorities? I don't think so and I certainly don't believe that.

Many, many people muddle along doing their job every day, working hard and perhaps being happy and that's fine. I turned down many job changes over the years because I liked the work I was doing and I paid for that, but that was my choice. Maybe that's why I now work for a women who I hired 30 years ago, and that's ok too.

It appears that you may be wealthy one day, just don't forget those inheritance taxes.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sat May 31, 2008 8:06 pm

rjwould;879056 wrote: Not at all, we've responded to exactly you've said. But it seems you are having some second thoughts.

So has mine

Why are you even concerned with what others do in their lives? Its not for you to criticize how others live or what decisions they make, good, bad or otherwise.

Just stay focused on your life and decisions and let others worry about themselves unless you choose to be kind to them and their plights. This is the problem with America, too many are focused on others behaviors and decisions and judging them......Thats wrong....

Perhaps staying away from the media would help because its full of manipulating its viewers into being judgmental of others..

You are dead wrong on that score!

Your statement would be fine if we were not all connected, but that is not the case. Should I care if a person on a motorcycle does not wear a helmut, what business is it of mine, well I am going to help pay for the mess in the road if they crash. Should I care that someone is irresponsible with their debt and goes bankrupt, well we all pay interest on debt that builds that factor in. Should I care if someone chooses not to have health insurance, who will foot the bill when they need care, the taxpayer. Should I care that someone does not save for retirement, society will foot the bill. Should I care that 70% of the students in Newark, NJ drop out of high school, we all foot that bill sooner or later. I care about the person who fails to have auto insurance, not my business, it is if they hit my car.

When one of my children was in college, his room mate was getting aid for the full cost of college while I was using all my resources and taking a second mortgage on my home. Why did he get all that aid? His parents were divorced and his father refused to support him...but his graduation present to his son was a new BMW. You bet your sweet bibby I care what decisions other people make.

Other peoples decisions, good bad or otherwise affect all of us. And I surely do care and so should you.

Give me a break, unless you are living in a cave and have no involvement in society and never will then we all pay the price for irresponsible people.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:01 am

rjwould;879086 wrote: Your complaints would hold more water if everyone had equal access to things like health care and refused it instead of not being able to afford it.

Reread your post please and take notice how you are obsessed with your finances, and how the behavior of others affects your wallet?

Wheres that compassionate conservatism? It doesn't exist because it "compassionate conservatism" is an oxymoron.

Please stop with the "if everyone had equal" They don't and they never will, so let's move on make better what we can. And as far as the health care issue goes, I was talking about those who do have access and choose not to buy it, an example, remember.

Do you deny my examples are valid?

Besides that was not the point...again. In addition, this is not about me or my wallet, I was trying to make a point on a concept that affects every American.

Simply put, we are all connected and the poor decisions by people, the lack of decisions affect us all in one way or the other. If people didn't litter the highways we would save billions a year in clean up costs, if people didn't drop out of high school perhaps they would have a better paying job down the road, if a woman didn't have mulitple children with no man in the home perhaps they would have better lives and on and on and on. If people weren't obese perhaps we all would have a bit lower health care costs.

I was on a governors task force to review the pension and other benefits of state workers. Bottom line the benefits are over the top generous, full retirement at 55, free health care in retirement, $1.00 for a prescription, etc. a program that no private employer could afford. This was built up over the years by politicians and the state unions. Funding was never provided, other funds were diverted and now the State has a $50 billion liability just for the retiree health care promises and billions more for the rest. And who pays, the citizens of the State most of whom have no pension, no free health care and none who enjoy such a generous package, but they pay the bill year after year. Liberal thinking at its best for a few hundred thousand people at the expense of 8 million others many of whom are stuggling with property taxes and all the rest.

Perhaps there is such a thing as compassionate irresponsibility.

oldebulldawg · Post by **oldebulldawg** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:57 pm

Hello all

When I think about what happened to America, wealth (or the lack of it) is not even close to the first thing that comes to mind.

I remember when kids like I used to be (born in '52) held open doors for older folks or people with physical problems. We were raised to respect our elders. We believed in doing "the right thing" with others. Think Dennis the Menace, or Leave it to Beaver.

Today I see people of all ages who are so self involved they are busy texting each other or talking on their cell phones they just don't care whose feet they step on or whether or not they just let a door close on an octogenarian. I miss the civility of the 50's and 60's. It seems to me that technology is a two edged sword.

While I like gadgets and my computer because it allows me the opportunity to talk to people from all walks of life, share ideas and experiences, I don't live for the tech itself. It is merely a way to do things I haven't been able to do before the age of Microsoft. I can share my photos and look at others, learn about new developments in science, experience in some way how the rest of the world lives and thinks, and a million other things impossible when I was young.

I dropped out of high school because I was bored, and wanted to join the workforce as soon as I could. I worked at everything from a bowling alley mechanic, truck driver, Good Humor man, grill cook in luncheonettes, so many things I can't remember half of them. A cousin and best friend who was going to optometry school talked me into learning how to make eyeglasses when I was seventeen.

I found I liked it, found it challenging and fun. I worked in several eye dr's offices

until I learned all I could from each, and moved on to the next, increasing my salary each time as my experience grew. Ultimately, with some help from my physician brother opened a small chain of optical shops in Orlando FL, and was successful with them. around 1989 a new phenomenon happened in the eyeglass business, the "one hour eyeglass" superstores came to Orlando and changed the face of the business. Because these corporate stores could afford to advertise like the small owner operated stores could not, stocked thousands of eyeglass frames like the little guys couldn't, many small businesses went out of business.

Fortunately, I saw the writing on the wall and sold my three shops before the corporations made mine worthless. It proved to be a good move. Because I had an excellent track record and was skilled in making and selling eyeglasses I had no problems getting a good paying job as a manager for one of those corporate stores and continued to make a good living.

I finally grew tired of the corporate method of institutionalized life and decided to make a change after nearly twenty years as an optician. I went into the wholesale end of the business as an eyeglass frame representative selling to private practice optometrists and ophthalmologists. I was very pleasantly surprised to find I had an aptitude for it, and made much more money doing that than I ever did as an optician. I soon found myself making a healthy six figure income in FL., and got married and had (or my wife) had a child, a daughter who is one of the shining lights of my life.

Unfortunately, my wife and I separated and divorced after nine years of marriage. We made sure that our little girl still had a great relationship with both of us, and I provided well for both of them until my daughter was able to provide for herself. I am still very close to both of them, although we now live 3000 miles apart as I moved to California with my new wife (and her two kids) when I had to take a position I couldn't refuse from another frame manufacturer. I made a great living in CA. up until a few years ago when I was the victim of a drunk driver. The result was that I could no longer work, I am permanently disabled. Sometimes life throws you a curveball, you just have to make adjustments.

I was never very good with money, I spent as much as I earned, a very nice house, cars for the kids and myself and my wife, the RV, etc etc. and did not have much in savings. I found myself having to sell my home, and my wife and I had to move into our RV for three years. Fortunately, all the kids were grown and making a decent living for themselves so we didn't have to worry about their survival. We raised all of our children to be well educated, independent and self sufficient.

I thought the world had come to an end as I was unable to provide for my wife and the kids as I always had. I became very depressed and miserable for quite a while. As fate had it, my wife (who had family health insurance) lost her job very shortly before my accident, therefore I could not get the surgery I needed to fix my back. I had to wait three years before Social Security Disability approved me for Medicare and SSD income. I then finally got my surgery but it was too late to prevent permanent nerve damage and I now am typing from my wheelchair. Needless to say, we had a life changing experience.

Whew, that was a much longer tale than I thought it would be, my apologies.

With all that has happened and all we have lost however, I consider myself to be the richest man in the world. I live with a woman who I believe is the greatest in the world. She loves me despite our losses, and I love her more than life. We live in a nice little mobile home in an over 55 development, very quiet, in a tiny town close to where she works. My mother-in-law, who we have taken care of for 15 years lives with us still, and she and I help one another during the day when my wife is at work. We have two terrific dogs that we rescued from the pound who keep us company. Although we no longer have the big toys or fancy cars, we are happy just to be together. Happier in fact than many wealthy people we know.

I do not in any way feel resentment for those better off than us, neither does my wife. We have what we need to live, and have each other which is more important than anything else. I do not look at others fancy cars with jealously, I just like looking at the cars. We go out to eat occasionally, at modest restaurants, and mostly cook at home. I enjoy cooking and I'm pretty darned good at it. My mother-in-law, while legally blind also likes to cook, so we help each other at it. We don't want for good food or for good company.

Along this strange and twisted path we have learned something very important. It is not how much you have, it is what you do have that makes you happy. I couldn't ask for a better life than we enjoy. You can't bank happiness.

Larry

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:10 pm

I think we can all agree that "The American Dream" was more prevalent back in the times of rapid expansion and immigration...

As far as people liking to blame the rich for their problems I think most people blow that way out of proportion...When people are criticizing the rich their mostly criticizing big business and their influences they have on the politicians that eventually have the final say in the decision making that ultimately reflects that of pure fascist ideal...

If anyone were to complain it would be because the fact that all of the rich would be enticed into voting for those candidates that are more prone to the ever becking money greedy fascists who care nothing of ideals as long as their bank account rises along with the decline of education...

oldebulldawg · Post by **oldebulldawg** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:27 pm

I would have to agree with you KS, but, I would also want to point out that neither of the political parties are innocent of this.

I have been discussing this on another site I frequent and have talked about how the Social Security fund has been raided for decades by politicians of all stripes.

It seems that the MSM have been strangely quiet about this, apparently they don't want to risk losing their sources by opening up that particular can of worms. Even GWB said that the fund has been raided for decades in a speech he made in 2006.

There is a reason that the rich get richer and the poor poorer, and that is because our government is run by very rich people who make their fortunes on the backs of the working poor.

When is the last time you saw a poor politician get into the big leagues?

Larry ♦

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:35 pm

oldebulldawg;901967 wrote: I would have to agree with you KS, but, I would also want to point out that neither of the political parties are innocent of this.

Well...During the Clinton Era our economy was about the best that it has ever been...

I don't know about anybody else but it doesn't take a genius to observe the transformation that has taken place...

oldebulldawg · Post by **oldebulldawg** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:53 pm

Hi again KS, I have to agree that the economy was pretty good during the Clinton era, perhaps not better than it has ever been but certainly better than it is now.

One of the reasons for this is the fact that the wars in the M.E. have cost us over 650 Billion dollars so far, and projected to cost 2.5 Trillion when all is said and done, including caring for the Vets that have come back missing limbs, and with the horrendous brain injuries they have suffered, etc.

It is my belief that oil may have had something to do with our involvement in Iraq, would you agree? Certainly it was not because our fearless leader was afraid that Saddam was going to invade the US. Clearly he had nothing whatsoever to do with 09/11, or Al Queda for that matter. GWB just parleyed the national fear after 13 Saudi radicals flew planes into the Trade Center to garner support to attack Iraq. That was what he wanted to do for years anyway. I supported the war in Afghanistan to out the Taliban, but the Iraq debacle was not my idea...

Regards, Larry

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:19 pm

oldebulldawg;901969 wrote: Hi again KS, I have to agree that the economy was pretty good during the Clinton era, perhaps not better than it has ever been but certainly better than it is now.

One of the reasons for this is the fact that the wars in the M.E. have cost us over 650 Billion dollars so far, and projected to cost 2.5 Trillion when all is said and done, including caring for the Vets that have come back missing limbs, and with the horrendous brain injuries they have suffered, etc.

It is my belief that oil may have had something to do with our involvement in Iraq, would you agree? Certainly it was not because our fearless leader was afraid that Saddam was going to invade the US. Clearly he had nothing whatsoever to do with 09/11, or Al Queda for that matter. GWB just parleyed the national fear after 13 Saudi radicals flew planes into the Trade Center to garner support to attack Iraq. That was what he wanted to do for years anyway. I supported the war in Afghanistan to out the Taliban, but the Iraq debacle was not my idea...

Regards, Larry

Well yes I understand all of that...

I do suppose it is a moot point to bring into the equation the holders of the congress considering that the first election was more so blatantly rigged than that of the second...

oldebulldawg · Post by **oldebulldawg** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:09 pm

K.Snyder;901971 wrote: Well yes I understand all of that...

I do suppose it is a moot point to bring into the equation the holders of the congress considering that the first election was more so blatantly rigged than that of the second...

Sometimes I wonder if it makes much difference in which party we support considering that they both are so corrupt, sad isn't it?

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:11 pm

oldebulldawg;901984 wrote: Sometimes I wonder if it makes much difference in which party we support considering that they both are so corrupt, sad isn't it?

Well I can't help but to agree with that...

wildhorses · Post by **wildhorses** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:29 pm

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;878941 wrote: I knew there was a risk in how I would be perceived when I wrote the post, it was not intended to be about me as an individual, rather as an example of many people who have achieved far more than me.

But the real point is that focusing on making sure people have those opportunities we talk about rather than focusing on those who have taken advantage of them as most politicians do is far more important.

I have worked in human resources all my life, I deal with discrimination cases, with unions, with employee complaints, etc. I can tell you for certain that more opportunity is lost than is prevented. Today's work ethic is pitiful.

The Irish, Chinese and many others had it pretty tough in the U.S. at one time. But we still see immigrants come here who hardly speak english and do better in a few months than others with 200 year old roots have done. There is no doubt a great deal of injustice in the world and in America and there always will be but does that provide an excuse?

There are numerous problems to focus on like education, drugs, family structures all of which decrease opportunity for people, so let's work from the bottom up as opposed to sustaining an ongoing victim, it's everyone elses fault mentality.

And by the way old Abe is as relevant in the 21st century as he was in the 19th.

You are right that I probably live in a different world as I refuse to accept second best or mediocrity, or excuses or the idea that people on their own (with few exceptions) cannot achieve what they want to achieve.

This is so typical of your type Quinn. Immigrants are not harder workers....or better workers....they work cheaper. People like you take advatage of their precarious circumstances. You are part of what is wrong with this country.

You started working in the decade where American workers still had opportunities. Because of your attitude (immigrants are better, blah blah blah) the workers who came after you did not have the same opportunities or resources.

Immigrants are not better workers....You just like to take advantage of them. By having this attitude you participate in destroying what America was all about.

Congratulations!!!! You are a greedy corporate jerk who cares only about money. And you love to gloat about it....not a very attractive personality trait.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:18 am

wildhorses;1024913 wrote: This is so typical of your type Quinn. Immigrants are not harder workers....or better workers....they work cheaper. People like you take advatage of their precarious circumstances. You are part of what is wrong with this country.

You started working in the decade where American workers still had opportunities. Because of your attitude (immigrants are better, blah blah blah) the workers who came after you did not have the same opportunities or resources.

Immigrants are not better workers....You just like to take advantage of them. By having this attitude you participate in destroying what America was all about.

Congratulations!!!! You are a greedy corporate jerk who cares only about money. And you love to gloat about it....not a very attractive personality trait.

Wildhorses, i believe we must be twins seperated at birth, we think so similar.

I like to comment on threads about your election and economy. I have to confess that of late, i have been rather a bore banging on about how wonderfull my Prime Minister is right now. That is only because he has huge experience in charge of the money in Britain under the Blair government and this crisis has allowed him to show the world just what that experience means to all of us. Europe as well.

We got lucky, we got one with brains in the math of global economics. On other home issue's we have our complaints as well, but everything takes time.

It's very easy for outsiders to look in and comment on how America should be doing things and get smug about it.

In other threads i do tend to jest rather a lot but i try to find humour in any dire situation.

What we have created in society in the West, is the 'ME' generation. The kind of people who don't give a shyte about anything or anyone else on this planet as long as they are alright Jack.

We have the likes of people here, where they are quick enough to ram their success down your throat telling you how many cars they've got blah blah blah.

Since our PM got nasty and sacked the bank chiefs, the directors and stiffed the Shareholders, these boasters are now the first to cry like babie's blaming that nasty PM and his government because they can't pay for that big house and forth car after all. Well, guess what? Tough titty to them i say.

Until this greedy West start actually thinking about themselves, stop trying to tell others on lower incomes than them how they should be doing things like them, nothing will ever change.

Our Pm decision to get rid of the money men has brought about massive change already. I won't bang on but we are seeing fuel down as well as grocery's all ready.

It is purely because a situation has been allowed to reign where the rich can look down at the lower income sector that they don't actually care any more.

It'll only be when the government sacks their sorry arss like our Pm did, that the one's who are fortunate enough to be in Quinns position, will get a very bitter pill to swallow.

Capitalism is dead. It's dead here, it's dead in Europe and Quinn, Socialism is coming to America faster than a cruise missile. You had better bunker down for the big fall out.

wildhorses · Post by **wildhorses** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:25 am

oscar;1024920 wrote: Wildhorses, i believe we must be twins seperated at birth, we think so similar.

I like to comment on threads about your election and economy. I have to confess that of late, i have been rather a bore banging on about how wonderfull my Prime Minister is right now. That is only because he has huge experience in charge of the money in Britain under the Blair government and this crisis has allowed him to show the world just what that experience means to all of us. Europe as well.

We got lucky, we got one with brains in the math of global economics. On other home issue's we have our complaints as well, but everything takes time.

It's very easy for outsiders to look in and comment on how America should be doing things and get smug about it.

In other threads i do tend to jest rather a lot but i try to find humour in any dire situation.

What we have created in society in the West, is the 'ME' generation. The kind of people who don't give a shyte about anything or anyone else on this planet as long as they are alright Jack.

We have the likes of people here, where they are quick enough to ram their success down your throat telling you how many cars they've got blah blah blah.

Since our PM got nasty and sacked the bank chiefs, the directors and stiffed the Shareholders, these boasters are now the first to cry like babie's blaming that nasty PM and his government because they can't pay for that big house and forth car after all. Well, guess what? Tough titty to them i say.

Until this greedy West start actually thinking about themselves, stop trying to tell others on lower incomes than them how they should be doing things like them, nothing will ever change.

Our Pm decision to get rid of the money men has brought about massive change already. I won't bang on but we are seeing fuel down as well as grocery's all ready.

It is purely because a situation has been allowed to reign where the rich can look down at the lower income sector that they don't actually care any more.

It'll only be when the government sacks their sorry arss like our Pm did, that the one's who are fortunate enough to be in Quinns position, will get a very bitter pill to swallow.

Capitalism is dead. It's dead here, it's dead in Europe and Quinn, Socialism is coming to America faster than a cruise missile. You had better bunker down for the big fall out.

I keep thinking it is just a dream that we are seeing the end of capitalism. It has been like this for so long....that to see it's demise is like winning the lottery. But it is in fact taking it's last greedy breath. Good riddens to it!! New life can now spring out of the ruins of capitalism.

LOL....we do think very much alike. I have noticed that also.

Wonder how Quinn will fare when the next president raises taxes on the rich? In fact I believe there is a bill that has been introduced already. And um....capital gains tax. That is going up. He will be in here squeaking about the unfairness of it all. He better start selling some of those CD's. I think he said he has 200. LOL ....he better pick 10 that he likes the best. He'll have to build one less mansion this year too.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:26 am

wildhorses;1024981 wrote: I keep thinking it is just a dream that we are seeing the end of capitalism. It has been like this for so long....that to see it's demise is like winning the lottery. But it is in fact taking it's last greedy breath. Good riddens to it!! New life can now spring out of the ruins of capitalism.

LOL....we do think very much alike. I have noticed that also.

Wonder how Quinn will fare when the next president raises taxes on the rich? In fact I believe there is a bill that has been introduced already. And um....capital gains tax. That is going up. He will be in here squeaking about the unfairness of it all. He better start selling some of those CD's. I think he said he has 200. LOL ....he better pick 10 that he likes the best. He'll have to build one less mansion this year too.

Well, i have to say, your Presidents hanging on to his last bit of capitalism for grim death, but the grip's weakening. Just like Fanny and her cronie's are clawing on.

It;s fact that there can not be a western society where the whole of Europe has gone for the big change and America stays in the same vein. Sooner or later, America will have to go along with it. I really believe Bush knows it, but is hanging on so who-ever gets in next will have to deal with the fall out.

The price of crude is tumbling, they will have to pass the savings on to the pumps as our P.M. forced ours to wednesday. That means less transportation costs which means the food stores can cut pruces, that's what's happening here so quickly.

We're not in a bubble here in Britain, we know there's going to be a budget where some things will go up, that's natural but the slash in fuel and food and it'll be clothes next, that will help make up for it.

Good luck, we will keep in touch.:driving::driving::driving:

better start sorting them c.d's Quinn :wah::wah::wah:

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:50 am

oscar;1025016 wrote: Well, i have to say, your Presidents hanging on to his last bit of capitalism for grim death, but the grip's weakening. Just like Fanny and her cronie's are clawing on.

It;s fact that there can not be a western society where the whole of Europe has gone for the big change and America stays in the same vein. Sooner or later, America will have to go along with it. I really believe Bush knows it, but is hanging on so who-ever gets in next will have to deal with the fall out.

The price of crude is tumbling, they will have to pass the savings on to the pumps as our P.M. forced ours to wednesday. That means less transportation costs which means the food stores can cut pruces, that's what's happening here so quickly.

We're not in a bubble here in Britain, we know there's going to be a budget where some things will go up, that's natural but the slash in fuel and food and it'll be clothes next, that will help make up for it.

Good luck, we will keep in touch.:driving::driving::driving:

better start sorting them c.d's Quinn :wah::wah::wah:

Don't count capitalism out just yet. It still works far better than any other system especially when coupled with a fair does of freedom. Seems to me that there are far more people from around the world who want to come to America than those who want to leave. You seem to forget that most of us here are the result of immigrants coming to America (Ireland, England, Sweden and Germany in my case and my wife's family is from Italy). Don't mix the idea of immigrants with Mexicans who in fact come here and work menial jobs for low wages (interestingly because even that is better than what they have in Mexico). There are still hundreds of thousands of other immigrants who come to America each year for the opportunity and freedom and who do quite well within only a few years.

The door swings both ways, anyone who wants to leave and live somewhere else in the world is free to do so, but interestingly when I walk the halls of my office building I hear Russian, Spanish, Eastern European languages and a good dose of Pakistani and whatever language it may be spoken in India.

You are right about one thing, I and many others will be upset if the capital gains tax goes up or other taxes for that matter, because it has been proven that when those taxes are raised the total revenue of the federal government goes down. 40% of Americans pay no incomes taxes at all so the burden falls on the other 60%, raise their taxes and wealth creation spending and savings are dampened. Some politicians need to learn that the hard way.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:55 am

wildhorses;1024981 wrote: I keep thinking it is just a dream that we are seeing the end of capitalism. It has been like this for so long....that to see it's demise is like winning the lottery. Interesting analogy, equating the coming Obama gov't with another way of getting something for nothing.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:05 am

Accountable;1025364 wrote: Interesting analogy, equating the coming Obama gov't with another way of getting something for nothing.

I don't think she meant it like that Accountable. Winning the lottery is a euphurisim here for getting a bonus. :-3

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:30 am

oscar;1025431 wrote: I don't think she meant it like that Accountable. Winning the lottery is a euphurisim here for getting a bonus. :-3
I'm not disagreeing with her. I'm sure that's how many people see it.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY · Post by **QUINNSCOMMENTARY** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:25 pm

Good riddens to it!! New life can now spring out of the ruins of capitalism.

I would be interested in your vision of the future without capitalism, what is the new life you seek? And can I assume that you enjoy none of the benefits of capitalism?

Wonder how Quinn will fare when the next president raises taxes on the rich? In fact I believe there is a bill that has been introduced already. And um....capital gains tax. That is going up. He will be in here squeaking about the unfairness of it all. He better start selling some of those CD's. I think he said he has 200. LOL ....he better pick 10 that he likes the best. He'll have to build one less mansion this year too.

Where did this come from? I'm starting to think you are in dreamland, I never owned a CD in my life and certainly never said I did here? And mansion, my wife would like to hear that as we sit in our 80 year old hand built house with the original 1929 bathroom.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:28 pm

Not to mention that CDs don't incur capital gains taxes. :rolleyes: A little education can cure a truckload of prejudice.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:58 pm

Accountable;1025712 wrote: Not to mention that CDs don't incur capital gains taxes. :rolleyes: A little education can cure a truckload of prejudice.

We were joking you twit...... honestly.... You guys?

If they taxed c.d's mate, i'd be bankrupt, I got a garage full of them :wah:

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:21 pm

oscar;1025763 wrote: We were joking you twit...... honestly.... You guys?

If they taxed c.d's mate, i'd be bankrupt, I got a garage full of them :wah:
CD = Certificate of Deposit

It's a medium-term savings vehicle; a way to make a little higher interest rate than a standard savings account.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:32 pm

Accountable;1025868 wrote: CD = Certificate of Deposit

It's a medium-term savings vehicle; a way to make a little higher interest rate than a standard savings account.

Whoops

I think they are called c.r's here, certificate of registration.

wildhorses · Post by **wildhorses** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:58 pm

Accountable;1025364 wrote: Interesting analogy, equating the coming Obama gov't with another way of getting something for nothing.

I don't really get your response. You may equate winning the lottery in simple terms...as winning money. I meant it on a much more complex level.....as in being showered in good fortune after much suffering.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:54 pm

wildhorses;1026234 wrote: I don't really get your response. You may equate winning the lottery in simple terms...as winning money. I meant it on a much more complex level.....as in being showered in good fortune after much suffering.
It's gambling a buck that you'll win 100 million.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:54 am

along-for-the-ride;878906 wrote: I don't believe that "getting rich" is ultimately the American Dream. Being successful in whatever occupation you are in doesn't necessarily have monetary connotations. You are good at your job. You like your job. You are able to pay your bills, provide for your family, save some of your wages, and some have some money left over to enjoy. I am in that category. I am not rich financially, but I do count my blessings as an American.

Do Americans make sacrifices for their families? Some do. Are some Americans ambitious and want to get rich? Ofcourse. Americans have different ideas on what "living the American Dream" is. We can either wish for it.....or live it.

Americans have changed since Lincolns time because America has changed since Lincoln's time.

Blessings ATFTRF !

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:36 am

What's happened Quinn is the huge number of very young people that have made it big time real quick, Google, Microsoft, Sun Systems, Yahoo etc. etc. These folks differ considerably from you and I in that they never had to go through the long process that you and I went through to reach modest gains. Their great wealth came unbelievably quick and thus their whole attitude about money and it's distribution is quite different, and their numbers are legion.There is a shift occurring both within this group and another group that does not really want to make major decisions for them selves and is perfectly happy to have government make decisions for them. Then, our whole political process is skewed like never before. It's become more expensive, more complex, last longer and has become boring and meaningless. The whole electoral process needs a major overhaul.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:54 am

Lon;1027054 wrote: What's happened Quinn is the huge number of very young people that have made it big time real quick, Google, Microsoft, Sun Systems, Yahoo etc. etc. These folks differ considerably from you and I in that they never had to go through the long process that you and I went through to reach modest gains. Their great wealth came unbelievably quick and thus their whole attitude about money and it's distribution is quite different, and their numbers are legion.There is a shift occurring both within this group and another group that does not really want to make major decisions for them selves and is perfectly happy to have government make decisions for them. Then, our whole political process is skewed like never before. It's become more expensive, more complex, last longer and has become boring and meaningless. The whole electoral process needs a major overhaul.

The shift doesn't change only the percentages associated with it...

You may see more younger people getting rich today than you had in the past but you also see more younger people falling on hard times than you have in the past...The fact of the matter is is that the "American Dream" was more prevalent the further back in history you go. Now you see people finding it hard to find and keep jobs because people either take their business overseas or they've given a contract to people who doesn't pay taxes.

The change is the same,..the numbers are just higher.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:56 am

K.Snyder;1027099 wrote: The shift doesn't change only the percentages associated with it...

You may see more younger people getting rich today than you had in the past but you also see more younger people falling on hard times than you have in the past...The fact of the matter is is that the "American Dream" was more prevalent the further back in history you go. Now you see people finding it hard to find and keep jobs because people either take their business overseas or they've given a contract to people who doesn't pay taxes.

The change is the same,..the numbers are just higher.

You also see many, many young people (20's & 30's) still living at home with parents, some in college, some having graduated and some still looking for ??????? Many of this group of young people have never learned to be self sufficient as in prior generations, they've been spoiled and coddled by well meaning parents that wanted their kids to have it better than they did. Ha!! Many within my own family of grandchildren I find emotionally and intellectually crippled to some degree.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:09 pm

Lon;1027148 wrote: You also see many, many young people (20's & 30's) still living at home with parents, some in college, some having graduated and some still looking for ??????? Many of this group of young people have never learned to be self sufficient as in prior generations, they've been spoiled and coddled by well meaning parents that wanted their kids to have it better than they did. Ha!! Many within my own family of grandchildren I find emotionally and intellectually crippled to some degree.

No Lon, my point is is that all of that happens to the same degree because the only thing that's changed is the population increase. What's changed is the population increase and the increase of luxuries to meet the demand giving you the impression that today's generation has it easier.

With the exception of the great depression in the US I have to say that the US was much more fruitful to ones ambition than it is now...

If you want to argue that the majority of the US in today's society is more lazy that's your prerogative but I'm looking for facts...In fact, I'd rather have lived 50 years ago as far as career is concerned...I'd have significantly more of a chance to become "rich" than I do now.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:22 pm

K.Snyder;1027164 wrote: No Lon, my point is is that all of that happens to the same degree because the only thing that's changed is the population increase. What's changed is the population increase and the increase of luxuries to meet the demand giving you the impression that today's generation has it easier.

With the exception of the great depression in the US I have to say that the US was much more fruitful to ones ambition than it is now...

If you want to argue that the majority of the US in today's society is more lazy that's your prerogative but I'm looking for facts...In fact, I'd rather have lived 50 years ago as far as career is concerned...I'd have significantly more of a chance to become "rich" than I do now.

People are not lazier today, but many are just not motivated and have no sense of direction. I think there is a world of opportunity today as never before, opportunities abound. If I were in my early thirties or late 20's I would do what ever it required to become proficient in some aspect of the computer industry, I would seek out positions that would be needed in any kind of economy, not to get rich, but to live decently. U.S. News and World report publishes annually, careers that will be in demand for the future. Any question about nursing or the medical field? Every one is capable of finding one of these careers and pursuing, many do not require any college. It's all about motivation.

southern yankee · Post by **southern yankee** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:27 pm

Breaks don't happen these days. you have to know someone. I don't care what kind of sheep skin you have. If you don't have CONNECTIONS. You are just S O L today. it seems all real good positions are so called brother in-law positions. i see that happening in oil field all the time. Jobs and Titles are invented for this person. Even if someone else is very qualified for the position. i am sure this goes on in other fields too.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:09 pm

Lon;1027180 wrote: People are not lazier today, but many are just not motivated and have no sense of direction. I think there is a world of opportunity today as never before, opportunities abound. If I were in my early thirties or late 20's I would do what ever it required to become proficient in some aspect of the computer industry, I would seek out positions that would be needed in any kind of economy, not to get rich, but to live decently. U.S. News and World report publishes annually, careers that will be in demand for the future. Any question about nursing or the medical field? Every one is capable of finding one of these careers and pursuing, many do not require any college. It's all about motivation.

I have to agree that the US is still very much fruitful I just do not believe opportunities are as fruitful now in today's society as they were 50-100 years ago...Not even close...Sure there are innovations but the US capitol is hitting a stand still and everyone is being effected...Minimum wage means nothing and it's prevalence is dictated by the diversity of inflation both negatively and positively...

It's hard to get a true grasp of the economy as far as opportunities are concerned because of innovations and new business ventures associated with demand...You see unemployment levels rise and fall dramatically in 10 year intervals so in my mind the closest thing to relate to motivation is the success of big business...I see big business declining at the moment rapidly and cannot see the US's current economic state rapidly improving within the next ten years...I don't quite think the US will see a "depression" but everyone will not be keeping 3 tv's, 1000 channels, and that Fat boy they've always been wanting...

Quite simply there were more productive things to do in history because there weren't computers and 1000 channels ironically enough...I can't quite think the problem is motivation rather too many choices of irrelevant careers...Everything in today's society is molded around convenience and the US if not the word is going to get a big slap in the face...

And if oil runs out I'm stocking up on AK-47's and tear gas...:wah:...

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:06 pm

K.Snyder;1027647 wrote: I have to agree that the US is still very much fruitful I just do not believe opportunities are as fruitful now in today's society as they were 50-100 years ago...Not even close...Sure there are innovations but the US capitol is hitting a stand still and everyone is being effected...Minimum wage means nothing and it's prevalence is dictated by the diversity of inflation both negatively and positively...

It's hard to get a true grasp of the economy as far as opportunities are concerned because of innovations and new business ventures associated with demand...You see unemployment levels rise and fall dramatically in 10 year intervals so in my mind the closest thing to relate to motivation is the success of big business...I see big business declining at the moment rapidly and cannot see the US's current economic state rapidly improving within the next ten years...I don't quite think the US will see a "depression" but everyone will not be keeping 3 tv's, 1000 channels, and that Fat boy they've always been wanting...

Quite simply there were more productive things to do in history because there weren't computers and 1000 channels ironically enough...I can't quite think the problem is motivation rather too many choices of irrelevant careers...Everything in today's society is molded around convenience and the US if not the word is going to get a big slap in the face...

And if oil runs out I'm stocking up on AK-47's and tear gas...:wah:...

Adapting and surviving is the key K.S.---------look what happened to those that stayed in the Wagon Wheel Mfg Business when H. Ford came out with the model T. Many felt then as you do now.