is there proof of jesus

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Bryn Mawr
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

jimbo;784955 wrote: i have been looking through the internet and i was really amazed at just how much recorded info there is about the existance of jesus , do you guys have any historical data you would be kind enough to share with us:-6:-6





http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html


Obviously, if you're trying to prove the accuracy of the Bible you cannot use the Bible as a source but many of the other sources quoted are impressive indeed.

I'm not sure, however, how many people question whether Jesus existed - even most of the Atheists I know admit to that. What they do question is who or what He was.
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Post by Carolly »

Bryn Mawr;784985 wrote: Obviously, if you're trying to prove the accuracy of the Bible you cannot use the Bible as a source but many of the other sources quoted are impressive indeed.

I'm not sure, however, how many people question whether Jesus existed - even most of the Atheists I know admit to that. What they do question is who or what He was.Bryn that is a subject that causes so many rows in so many places and everyone thinks their answer and belief is the right one.I know what I believe and I have tried to think otherwise but always come back to the same conclusion and nobody will ever make me see otherwise.
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Post by spot »

That's a bit of a biased site, Jimbo.

Tacitus wrote about 100AD by which time there were Christians in Rome, they told him what they believed. He's evidence of what the Christians in Rome believed, not of what happened. He wasn't even alive during the time the Gospels are set in.

Suetonius wrote about twenty years later than Tacitus and the same applies to him.

Josephus was earlier, but even he wasn't even alive during the time the Gospels are set in. The main passage about Jesus in his History of the Jews is considered a late fake add-on by Christians trying to build Jewish evidence for the Gospel story. Either way he's still reporting on what the Christians told him.

Here's an example of how the site exaggerates... it says: "Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of his followers."

What Mara Bar-Serapion actually wrote, some time after 70AD, is "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given".

It doesn't mention Jesus by name at all, it implies there was a Wise King of the Jews not long before they had a catastrophe. I suspect it is a reference to Jesus put in language that echoes the original exile in Babylon, but what the site claims is an extreme interpretation and the entire article is stretched that thinly. Mara Bar-Serapion is certainly, like Tacitus, doing no more than writing down what he's heard others say about a man who died forty years earlier. It's good evidence that people in 75AD compared the proverbial wisdom of Jesus with that of Socrates (another person I actually think never existed) and Pythagoras.

No, there's absolutely no evidence at all of the physical existence of Jesus that would distinguish what you'd see if he were a fictional character in a set of morality stories. Not so much as a whisper of one. Nobody outside of Christianity who claimed to have met him and, to be honest, nobody inside Christianity either except for Paul who said he'd seen him on the Road to Damascus years after the crucifixion. Everyone else in the bible says they were told about him and nothing more.
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Post by Bryn Mawr »

Carolly;785015 wrote: Bryn that is a subject that causes so many rows in so many places and everyone thinks their answer and belief is the right one.I know what I believe and I have tried to think otherwise but always come back to the same conclusion and nobody will ever make me see otherwise.


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Post by Ted »

jimbo:-6

Some of the world's top scholars in this field hold there is as much proof for the historical existence of Jesus as there is for other obscure characters considered to have existed. Most scholars in this field do not doubt the historicity of Jesus.

History is a very imperfect science and subject to much interpretation.

If you want a list of scholars I can give them to you.

Shalom

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Post by spot »

On the other hand I don't see why it would upset anyone's faith, deciding that the historical record involves transmission through so many steps. It's still the message that counts and what we each choose to learn from it.
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Post by Ted »

spot:-6

Personally I have no problem with that. However, many do.

I have no problem accepting the historicity of Jesus.

Shalom

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Post by Clodhopper »

Having accepted the reality of a person called Jesus - though I haven't studied the issue myself, someone I trust with decent academic credentials has and I accept her conclusion - the matter then becomes whether a God exists who refines his word, as expressed in the Bible, through its various evolutions?
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Post by Ted »

Any discussion of the existence of God is totally futile and leads to circular reasoning. The same holds true for the non-existence of God. The whole issue is beyond logic.

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Post by spot »

Clodhopper;785150 wrote: Having accepted the reality of a person called Jesus - though I haven't studied the issue myself, someone I trust with decent academic credentials has and I accept her conclusion - the matter then becomes whether a God exists who refines his word, as expressed in the Bible, through its various evolutions?


You could clear our discussion up in a flash by showing the argument (as opposed to the conclusion) which you found so compelling. It sounds dreadfully like "I trust Ms X and Ms X said so" at the moment.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Ted: grin. Yes. Well put. It's where this poor soul has trouble: Accustomed to make decisions on the basis of rational thought (I try, anyway!), I find myself in an area where rationality does not apply and a leap of faith is required. Interesting, if difficult.
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Post by Clodhopper »

Spot: That's exactly what it is. Sorry. Adequate for me but not for anyone else, if only because my friend was working in the area fifteen or so years ago and I can't remember the arguments, only the conclusion. Chuckle. In an area where logic is of limited assistance, I don't really think it matters. To butcher someone else's saying, "If Jesus did not exist, it would seem we have invented him."
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Post by american parable »

Once a person accepts and believes the gospel: That Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world, was buried and then by the power of God rose again to everlasting life, the Holy Spirit will enter into that person and the proof of His existence will be undeniable.
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Post by spot »

Does it take a long time for that to happen? Minutes? Weeks? Decades?
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Post by koan »

spot;821182 wrote: Does it take a long time for that to happen? Minutes? Weeks? Decades?


:wah: <-- edit for the graphically challenged; insert laughing smilie

The enlightenment part is instantaneous.
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Post by Daniyal »

According to the scriptures Jesus / Moses Abraham went to Egypt , But no where can this be found in Egypt , On the walls / Norecords .
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Post by spot »

Daniyal;907312 wrote: According to the scriptures Jesus / Moses Abraham went to Egypt , But no where can this be found in Egypt , On the walls / Norecords .


In 458 BC Herodotus visited Egypt and talked to priests and officials. He wrote a long book about it. It's hard to believe he didn't actually go there, given how much detail he put into his books, but there's no records in Egypt of his visit either on the walls or in any records. Did Herodotus not go to Egypt either?
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Post by Daniyal »

spot;907591 wrote: In 458 BC Herodotus visited Egypt and talked to priests and officials. He wrote a long book about it. It's hard to believe he didn't actually go there, given how much detail he put into his books, but there's no records in Egypt of his visit either on the walls or in any records. Did Herodotus not go to Egypt either?




What person is in the image and after the likeness of God ?
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Post by theia »

Daniyal;911210 wrote: What person is in the image and after the likeness of God ?


We all are...the problem is that we reciprocate and try to make God in the image and after the likeness of man :thinking:
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Post by Daniyal »

theia;911218 wrote: We all are...the problem is that we reciprocate and try to make God in the image and after the likeness of man :thinking:




Man Was Created In The Image And After The Likeness Of The One God As You Find In Genesis 1; 26 And I Quote '' Lets Us Make Man In Our Image , And After Our Likess ; '' And Everybody LQQks Different ( Except ) For Identical Twins Etc . Then Either The God Of The Bible Is Confused About The Way He LQQKS Or The Image Of God Is Constantly Changing Or There Is More Than One God . The Word Used In Aramic / Hebrew For '' Image '' Is Tselem Meaning '' Resemblance , Semblance '' And Then The Aramic / Hebrew Word Used For '' Likeness ''' Is Demuwth Meaning '' To Be Like SomeOne Or SomeThings , To Resemble , To Be Compared To '' Now If Man Is Created In The Image And After The Likeness Of God And That Mean That Man Is Like In All Ways And Manners , And Since People LQQk Different . They Range In Features . Shapes , Sizes And Many Other Chasracteristics , So Which One Man Has The Image And Likeness Of God ???



What Is '' GODS '' Blood Type ?

Christian Won't Know How To Answer This One . Sine Adam Was Created In The Image And After The Likeness Of God According To Genesis 1 ; 27 , Then Ask Your Teacher , Preacher , Ministers . Deacons , Rabbis , Imaam AndOther Religious Leaders What Was God's Blood Type? They Don't Have An Answer !

Question ; Since EveryOne Came From Adam And Eve Who , According To Christian Doctrine , Were The First Human Beings . Then Why Doesn't EveryOne LQQk Exactly Alike ? When It SaysThat Eve Taken From His Rib , What Does That Mean ? The Rib Is What ? A Bone AndWhat Take Place In The Bones ? Bones Are Made Up Of Mineral - Filled Rings And Of Blood Vessels That Run Through Canals In Each Group Of Rings , And Blood Vessels Enter And Exit At Specific Points Along The Bone . The Bone In Animals Having A Back Bone Or Spinal Column / Vertebrates Is Also



Involved In Regulating The Concentration For Calcium Icons In The Blood . Creation Takes Place In Bones . What Do I Mean By Creation ? Inside Of The Bones . You Have Bone Marrows Which . Is Tissue Inside Of Your Bones That Is Responsible For The ProductionOf Blood Cells . The Bone Marrow Fills The Center And Spaces At Both Ends Of The Bones Where Growth Happen . In Infants , The Marrow Of The Bones Prodance Blood Cells , Whereas The Function Of Bone Marrow Changes Into Soring Fat As You Get Older . As Adults , Most Blood Cells Are Produced In The Marrow Of Flat Bones Such As The Sternum Or The Breast Bone , Which Is The Narrow Flat Bone In The Middle Line Of The Thorax In Front . The Breast Bone Is Composed Of Three Portions Called The Manubrium Which Is A Latin Word



Meaning '' Handle '' ( The Portion Of The Malleus LQQking Like A Handle .Xiphold Is From The Greek Words Xiphos Meaning '' Sword '' And Eidos , Meaning '' Process '' Or Ensiform From The Latin Word Ensis Meaning '' Sword '' Forma Meaning '' Form '' [ Sword Shaped Cartiaginous Process Supported By The Bone ; It Has No Ribs Attached To It ] . And The Gladiolus Process , From The Latin Word Gladiolus Meaning '' Little Sword '' ( The Femur Bone , A Long Bone In The Thigh , Show Which As Bone Marrow Compact Bone , Blood Vessels And Spongy Bone .Bone Marrow Is Responsible For The Production Of Blood Cells. And What Is In Blood ?First Of All . Blood Is The Only Liquid Tissue In



The Body . What Makes Blood A Liquid Is A Protenin - Rich Substance Called Plasma . , Which Makes Up Approximately 55 Percent Of Blood , While The Other 45 Percent Of Blood Is Made Up Of Red And White Blood Cells . And Platelets . Red Blood Cells Or Erythrocytes

[ From The Greek Words Leukos , Meaning '' White '' And Cyte Meaning '' Cell '' Carry Oxygen From The Lungs To All Cells Of The Body And It Also Carries Carbon Dioxide From Cells Back To The Lungs To Be Exhaled . WhiteBlood Cells Or Leukocytes [ From The Greek Word Leukos Meaning '' White '' , And Cyte Meaning '' Cell '' ] Also Called Microphages , Can Go In And Out Of Blood Vessels To Clean Up Worn-Out Or Dead Cells And Protect The Body Against Invading Bacteria , Viruses , Or Other Foreign Cells . Platelets Or Thrombocytes [ From The Greek Words



Leukos , Meaning '' White '' And Cyte Meaning '' Cell '' Which Are Fragment Of Cells Formed From Large White Blood Cells Within Bone Marrow , Are Needed For The Blood Clotting Process That Happen When Blood Bessels Are Injured . Red Blood Cells . White Blood Cells . Platelets ;.... Human Beings Are Constantly Creating Duplicates Of Themselves In The Form Of What Is Called Genes , Which Hold The Genetic Code For Your Exact Mak-Up . Genes Are Carriers Of Of The Genetic Information Passed On From Generation To Generation In TheSex Cells Of All Organisms . It Consists Of A Helix Structure Of Chain-Like Molecules Of Deoxyribonucleic Acids ( DNA ) In Most Organisms And Ribonucleic Acid ( RNA



In Certain Viruses And Is Usually Associated In A Linear Arrangement That Makes Up The Chromosome . Nucleic Acids . Are Long Chain-Like Molecules , Made Of Repeated Sequences Of Phosphate And Sugar Likeages-Ribose Sugar In RNA And Deoxyribose Sugars In DNA . Attached To The Sugar Like In The Backbone Are Two Kinds Of Purines ; Adenine ( A ) And Guanine ( G ) . And Two Kinds Of Pyrimdines Cytosine ( C ) Anduracil ( U ) In RNA . A Single Purine Or A Pyrimdine Is Attached To Each Sugar ; The Compound Being Called A Nucleotide . The Nuckeic Acids Extracted From Different Species Of Animals And Plants Have Different Proporytion Of The Four Nucleotide . Some Have More Adenine ( A ) And Thymine ( T ) , While Others Have More Guanine ( G ) And Cytosine ( C ) .



However , The Ratios Of A To '' T '' And Also G To C. Are Equal . How Does All Of This Tie In ? Inside Of The Bones , In The Marrow Of The Bone Blood Cells Are Produced . They Are A Whole Person Being Created Inside Of Yourself . Inside Of Your Bones Fresh Humans AreBeing Created And Old Ones Are Dying . Thus If According To The Bible Eve Was Taken From The Rib Or Bone Marrow Of Adam

Genesis 2 ; 21 - 22 And I Quote . And The Lord God Caused A Deep Sleep To Fall Upon Adam And He Slept ; And He Took One Of His Ribs , And Closed Up The Flesh Instead Therefore . And The Ribs Which The LORD God Had Taken From Man

Made He A Woman And Brought Her Unto Man . Then Shouldn't She Have Been An Exact Duplicate Of Adam In Every Way ?
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Post by spot »

The preceding post was also copied without attribution at http://www.clubalien.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=649 on 14 August 2007 by YowkhananEl.

Everytime You Post A Website , And Not Use Your Own Words , My Point Will Be Made

Almost 80% Of Your Post Come From Some Website , Could It Be That Your The One Who Hasn't A Thought Of Your Own .
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Post by Daniyal »

spot;912613 wrote: The preceding post was also copied without attribution at http://www.clubalien.com/viewtopic.php?TopicID=649 on 14 August 2007 by YowkhananEl.

Everytime You Post A Website , And Not Use Your Own Words , My Point Will Be Made

Almost 80% Of Your Post Come From Some Website , Could It Be That Your The One Who Hasn't A Thought Of Your Own .




You cliam to know Dr . M.Z.York Teaching So Well Yes , Even In One Of Your Post You Said We Don't Accept Paul Teaching True, The Diffrent Between You And Me You Were Taught To Believe Things And Not Question , I Wasn't , Unlike You I Was Taught Whenever You Can't Question Your Teacher They're Are Hideing Sometime . Dr.York Never Told Us To Believe Him , He Said Check It Out . If You Took The Time And Reseacrh You Own Teaching You Wouldn't Keep Coming Up With These Weak Excuses . Tell me something , When I Ask You The Question Could Anyone Else Die For Your Sins , Were Those Quote / Verse Your Own Thought' / Words Or Your Minister / Website , Ether Way You You Help Me With My Answer True . You Though You Were Saying Something Smart Didn't You . Problem With Most Christian They Have Diffrent Demonation / School Of Though All Claiming To Have The Word Of God , As If Yashu'a Taught All These School Of Though . First Of All Yall Can't Even Get His Name Right , Some Of You Call Him Jesus Which A Greek Name And He Never Spoke Greek . Any Real Theologian Will Tell Yashu'a Never Spoke Greek / Latin / English . But Yet Some Of You Christian Will Out Lie And Say He Spoke Greek . Your Problem Is You Think You Can Just Throw Something Together Or Sent Some One To Your Favor Website And Say This Is The Word Of God , Overstand Something If The Only One Who's Going Accept What You Give Them Are Those Who Like You Or Coming From Your School Of Though. All I Do Is Walk You Through What I Was Taught If You Accept It Cool If Not Owell . I Told You Before Religion Is Not Hard Thing To Overstand Because Most Christian Aren't Taught Nothing But Salvation / Belief's / Faith / Website , 100% Of Your Speaks Of The Above . Your Funny I Don't Have A Though Of My Own , LOLOLOLOLOLOL That Goes Along With Those, One Is Not Save Or They're Going To Hell Etc .. Later :driving:
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Post by spot »

Daniyal;912638 wrote: Dr.York Never Told Us To Believe Him , He Said Check It Out .Yessss. Finally. Testimony.



I, YAANUWN, Am An ANUNNAQI Or What You Would Call An Extra-Terrestrial; Extra Terra-Astral; Look At This EXTRA- Meaning In Addition To; TERRA-Of The Earth; ASTRAL- Of Or From The Stars. I Am What You Call An Angelic Being, An Eloheem From The 8th Planet Called RIZQ Which Has 1 Moon SHESHQI Of Its Own. This Galaxy, The Nineteenth Galaxy Called "ILLYUWN"



Did you check it out? How?

Was he lying or was he telling the truth?

What aspect of your personal experience validated his claims here?

Unlike You I Was Taught Whenever You Can't Question Your Teacher They're Are Hideing Sometime .
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Post by Daniyal »

spot;912649 wrote: Yessss. Finally. Testimony.



I, YAANUWN, Am An ANUNNAQI Or What You Would Call An Extra-Terrestrial; Extra Terra-Astral; Look At This EXTRA- Meaning In Addition To; TERRA-Of The Earth; ASTRAL- Of Or From The Stars. I Am What You Call An Angelic Being, An Eloheem From The 8th Planet Called RIZQ Which Has 1 Moon SHESHQI Of Its Own. This Galaxy, The Nineteenth Galaxy Called "ILLYUWN"



Did you check it out? How?

Was he lying or was he telling the truth?

What aspect of your personal experience validated his claims here?

Unlike You I Was Taught Whenever You Can't Question Your Teacher They're Are Hideing Sometime .




Only One Who Lying Here Is People Like You And Authors Who Created Your Man / Woman Made Religion . Because You Even Said Yourself Your Belief In Your Own Made-up Religion So You Believe In A Spook / Ghost God ... Believe = BE -LIE - EVE = To Lie To Even Children . Right
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.



When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down





To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .



It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble



When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
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Post by spot »

Daniyal;917622 wrote: Only One Who Lying Here Is People Like You And Authors Who Created Your Man / Woman Made Religion . Because You Even Said Yourself Your Belief In Your Own Made-up Religion So You Believe In A Spook / Ghost God ... Believe = BE -LIE - EVE = To Lie To Even Children . Right


Daniyal, you're starting to bore me when you lie all the time. I don't believe, I do things. You start by insisting that a Christian has to this and has to that and when you're told it's not so you ignore the facts and carry on lying.

Why can't you just say your man isn't an alien and have done with it? Or, if he is, that he is. You think the one or the other, I don't care which. What I'm asking is what basis you have for making your decision.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
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Post by Daniyal »

spot;917626 wrote: Daniyal, you're starting to bore me when you lie all the time. I don't believe, I do things. You start by insisting that a Christian has to this and has to that and when you're told it's not so you ignore the facts and carry on lying.

Why can't you just say your man isn't an alien and have done with it? Or, if he is, that he is. You think the one or the other, I don't care which. What I'm asking is what basis you have for making your decision.




Like I Said In Your Nuwaubian Post Who And What He Is , You Say You Have Read His Book's Right Unless Your Lying . You Had To Have Read The Introduction And It Explaining All Those Silly / Tricknowledge Question Your Asking , Until You Can Prove Anything He Said / Teachs As To Be Wrong / Madeup ... Like Christianity .. Your The One Who Ignoreing The Facts , And The Fact Is You Can't Prove The Existence Of Of The People Of Your Scriptures Made Up Or Other Wise . Unlike You I Make My Decision On The Facts Given To Me , You On The Other Hand Make You Decision On Some Silly Belif / Faith , And If That Ok If It Works For You Hey So Be It . And As Me Boreing Thats And Out Right LIE If I Were So Boreing You Wouldn't Be Following Me Around Seeking My Attention With Your Silly Questioning . ( And Say The Facts Beyond Any Doubt Have Come And False Ways Were To Vanish In Time ) . Now If I'm Really Boreing You , You Will Drop This Sillyness , If Not You'll Keep Seeking My Attention , ..
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.



When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down





To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .



It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble



When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
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spot
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Location: Brigstowe

is there proof of jesus

Post by spot »

Why can't you just say your man isn't an alien and have done with it? Or, if he is, that he is. You think the one or the other, I don't care which. What I'm asking is what basis you have for making your decision.

I think you're scared either way. You're scared of saying it's storytelling and not factual, and you're scared of saying you believe him when he says it's a fact. What you cannot possibly know from experience is whether it's true or not. All you have is belief.
Nullius in verba ... ☎||||||||||| ... To Fate I sue, of other means bereft, the only refuge for the wretched left.
When flower power came along I stood for Human Rights, marched around for peace and freedom, had some nooky every night - we took it serious.
Who has a spare two minutes to play in this month's FG Trivia game! ... My other OS is Slackware.
Daniyal
Posts: 1399
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:56 pm

is there proof of jesus

Post by Daniyal »

spot;917715 wrote: Why can't you just say your man isn't an alien and have done with it? Or, if he is, that he is. You think the one or the other, I don't care which. What I'm asking is what basis you have for making your decision.

I think you're scared either way. You're scared of saying it's storytelling and not factual, and you're scared of saying you believe him when he says it's a fact. What you cannot possibly know from experience is whether it's true or not. All you have is belief.




Poor Thing :wah::wah::wah::wah::wah:
Never Argue With An Idiot. They Drag You Down To Their Level Then Beat You With Experience.



When An Elder Passes On To Higher Life , Its Like One Of The Library Have Shut Down





To Desire Security Is A Sign Of Insecurity .



It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So That Get Them In Trouble



When you can control a man's thinking you don't have to worry about his action ...:driving:
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