What Does a LIberal Want

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QUINNSCOMMENTARY
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What Does a LIberal Want

Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

What do liberals want? I really want to know.

I just read an article that says by being residents of a small French town Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt are eligible for $2,600 in monthly child benefits. That is comprised of a nanny payment of $975 and an orphan allowance for each of their adopted children of $509 each.

Is that the vision liberals want for America, government payments for nannies?

What makes people think that the best way to run a country is to have high taxes and then have the government allocate those taxes (after all the expenses of running the bureaucracy) among the population according to some perceived standard of fairness?

Barack Obama is proof that just about anyone can get ahead in America if he or she takes advantage of each opportunity and works hard to boot. Has that concept suddenly become out of favor?

My father was a used care salesman, my parents and my sisters and I lived in a one bedroom apartment (my parents converted the dinning area into their bedroom) and we neither looked for nor received government aid. My parents were finally able to buy a home when my father was 60 and then only because my sister and her family shared a single family home. No government programs were involved, no rebates, no tax breaks, no subsides. My father worked on commission so if he didn’t sell a car he made no money, except for what was called a “draw, in effect an advance on future sales, but while we never took any big vacations, we never went hungry either.

When I graduated high school (one that was 50% minority for the record), I went to work for a big company as a mail boy, the lowest paid job out of 15,000. Today 47 years later I am still there and let’s just say that after nine years of evening college, two years in the Army and working 60 plus hours a week I am no longer the lowest paid person (but interestingly, there is one person who worked with me in the mail room who is still in the mail room and 73 years old).

So, would a liberal point of view say that I should pay higher taxes so that my colleague can receive a larger social security benefit?

If I sound cold or even arrogant, that is not my intent.

My fundamental question is where does personal responsibility end and society’s responsibility begin?

What exactly does an individual have a right to from society or more specifically from society’s government? :(

While I am smart enough to know that there are people who for one reason or the other are not capable of helping themselves or simply have suffered from bad luck, but they are the minority. The vast majority of people have what they have, are what they are because they have made choices in their lives. When years later it turns out those choices were not the best, is it society’s responsibility to change things?
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What Does a LIberal Want

Post by Rapunzel »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968546 wrote: What exactly does an individual have a right to from society or more specifically from society’s government? :(

While I am smart enough to know that there are people who for one reason or the other are not capable of helping themselves or simply have suffered from bad luck, but they are the minority. The vast majority of people have what they have, are what they are because they have made choices in their lives. When years later it turns out those choices were not the best, is it society’s responsibility to change things?


What a damn good question!

What exactly does an individual have a right to from society or more specifically from society’s government?

I believe we should have a right to food, a roof over our heads and medical care.

I think the UK are right to give council houses and benefits to those who are struggling and free medical care to all.

I recently watched the Will Smith film The Pursuit of Happyness. I thought the idea of an out of work dad living on the streets with his young son was shocking. People with youngsters should have homes! (Although I thought the film was over-hyped and poor!) I also think everyone, particularly youngsters should have free medical treatment!

On the other hand, I don't think benefits should be given to people to send outside our country! I don't think Polish people should be able to claim child benefit and send it home to Poland! If Poles have kids in this country, then by all means, claim for them. But out of the country, then Poland (or wherever) should pay! And just because India was once part of the British Empire - it isn't now! So Indians should enter our country through immigration.

I think Police should have far more powers and so should Immigration. I think illegal immigrants should be chased and removed from our country, not left to hide away. I think people on benefits should spend maybe 5 hours per week earning their benefits. They could run playgroups, be lollypop ladies, pick up litter, clean off graffitti. Giving them a job makes them feel better about themselves and gets them off of the couch and out into the fresh air.

And whilst I think the government should pay child benefit I think the limit should be 3 children. If people want 10 kids, fine, but they should only be able to claim for three! I find as a general rule that the more kids people have, the more out of control those kids are! People just don't have the time (in general) to care for so many kids and so they are the ones who create havoc and chaos and are in trouble with the Police. They are also the ones who keep skipping school and who give nothing back to society. There are also programmes for large families where the council will pay one family to move so large families can have 2 houses knocked together for their home. This is just utterly ridiculous!

Likewise, child benefit shouldn't be paid to people in the upper income brackets. If they don't need it, don't pay them. Eg., Pitt & Jolie. Why FGS would they need benefits? And why would they need a nanny? Most people who adopt cannot have kids and spend so long trying to adopt that they want to spend as much time as possible with their children! Why would they want to palm them off onto a nanny? It's PC gone crazy as usual! We need a government that believes in COMMON SENSE! Making sensible judgements instead of PC ones that change with the weather!

I think everyone claiming should be encouraged to work. I think the majority of prisoners (not murderers/ rapists/ paedophiles) should live at home, spend their time doing community service and wear ankle bracelets which 'watch' their movements. The prison system is ridiculously overcrowded. I think more money and benefits should go to old people. They fought the War for us, lost loved ones and now get treated like dirt and allowed to die of hypothermia each winter because they can't afford to turn their heaters on and because our government prefer to kiss the butts of immigrants who want to kill us!

Bit of a rant there. Sorry, but it had to be said! :(

While I am smart enough to know that there are people who for one reason or the other are not capable of helping themselves or simply have suffered from bad luck, but they are the minority. The vast majority of people have what they have, are what they are because they have made choices in their lives. When years later it turns out those choices were not the best, is it society’s responsibility to change things?

I disagree. We can all suffer a change of fortunes at whatever time for whatever reason. I think people should be helped to cope and to survive then. I just don't agree with supporting 10 child families (or even 4+ child families) if the parents cannot support or even attempt to support these children from birth!
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What Does a LIberal Want

Post by Rapunzel »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968546 wrote: What do liberals want? I really want to know.


I think Liberals want to have a nice pleasant world where everything is fair and everyone is just one happy bunny.

Sadly, life doesn't work that way!

You have to draw a balance between what people want and what they need. It's a truism that 'you can't please all of the people all of the time'. You just have to try to balance it out and try to do the best you can.

Sadly, government's don't work that way. They spit out nicey-nicey platitudes and pretend to be your friend when all the time they're money-grabbing avaricious little oiks who want to bleed you dry and give you nothing for it whilst pretending to show the world how open-handed and generous they are! Pffft!
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What Does a LIberal Want

Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968546 wrote: What do liberals want? I really want to know.

I just read an article that says by being residents of a small French town Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt are eligible for $2,600 in monthly child benefits. That is comprised of a nanny payment of $975 and an orphan allowance for each of their adopted children of $509 each.

Is that the vision liberals want for America, government payments for nannies?

What makes people think that the best way to run a country is to have high taxes and then have the government allocate those taxes (after all the expenses of running the bureaucracy) among the population according to some perceived standard of fairness?

Barack Obama is proof that just about anyone can get ahead in America if he or she takes advantage of each opportunity and works hard to boot. Has that concept suddenly become out of favor?

My father was a used care salesman, my parents and my sisters and I lived in a one bedroom apartment (my parents converted the dinning area into their bedroom) and we neither looked for nor received government aid. My parents were finally able to buy a home when my father was 60 and then only because my sister and her family shared a single family home. No government programs were involved, no rebates, no tax breaks, no subsides. My father worked on commission so if he didn’t sell a car he made no money, except for what was called a “draw,” in effect an advance on future sales, but while we never took any big vacations, we never went hungry either.

When I graduated high school (one that was 50% minority for the record), I went to work for a big company as a mail boy, the lowest paid job out of 15,000. Today 47 years later I am still there and let’s just say that after nine years of evening college, two years in the Army and working 60 plus hours a week I am no longer the lowest paid person (but interestingly, there is one person who worked with me in the mail room who is still in the mail room and 73 years old).

So, would a liberal point of view say that I should pay higher taxes so that my colleague can receive a larger social security benefit?

If I sound cold or even arrogant, that is not my intent.

My fundamental question is where does personal responsibility end and society’s responsibility begin?

What exactly does an individual have a right to from society or more specifically from society’s government? :(

While I am smart enough to know that there are people who for one reason or the other are not capable of helping themselves or simply have suffered from bad luck, but they are the minority. The vast majority of people have what they have, are what they are because they have made choices in their lives. When years later it turns out those choices were not the best, is it society’s responsibility to change things?


Define what you mean by a liberal. It seems to be synonymous with socialist in the states. Ironic when you consider the US was founded as a liberal democracy. In the Uk it has a very different connotation than it does it the states and socialism is not the big bugaboo either. Most of our political parties are social democrat in nature-even the right wing ones accept the welfare state now if only becaise not to do so ensured they don't get elected. and the liberals haven;'t held office for decades and are not likely to in the near future unless we reform out electoral system. Means tested benefits are an issue here and our system is a bit complicated with benefits and allowances. It's simpler just to pay some benefits to all regardless of income and get it back through taxation.l

posted by rapunzel

On the other hand, I don't think benefits should be given to people to send outside our country! I don't think Polish people should be able to claim child benefit and send it home to Poland! If Poles have kids in this country, then by all means, claim for them. But out of the country, then Poland (or wherever) should pay! And just because India was once part of the British Empire - it isn't now! So Indians should enter our country through immigration.


That's not actually true they can't claim for children back home in poland any more than you can work in europe and claim benefits for any of your children back home. it's one of the latest stories put about to stir up hatred. I would actually agree with you to some extent about former colonial countries and mass emigration but that one is down to the tories and the remember the empire brigade who thought we had a moral obligation to let them all in. On the other hand most immigrants are actually hard working and out to make a better life for themselves. It's not simply good or bad. Many british people work abroad for the same reason-that's where the work is.

In simplistic terms a liberal stand for individual liberty, free trade, and moderate reform. On other words social justice, free speech equality before the law.
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Post by Richard Bell »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968546 wrote:

I just read an article that says by being residents of a small French town Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt are eligible for $2,600 in monthly child benefits. That is comprised of a nanny payment of $975 and an orphan allowance for each of their adopted children of $509 each.




It's France !

The $509 is allocated to keep les enfants in wine.

Vive La Difference !

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Define what you mean by a liberal. It seems to be synonymous with socialist in the states. Ironic when you consider the US was founded as a liberal democracy. In the Uk it has a very different connotation than it does it the states and socialism is not the big bugaboo either. Most of our political parties are social democrat in nature-even the right wing ones accept the welfare state now if only becaise not to do so ensured they don't get elected. and the liberals haven;'t held office for decades and are not likely to in the near future unless we reform out electoral system. Means tested benefits are an issue here and our system is a bit complicated with benefits and allowances. It's simpler just to pay some benefits to all regardless of income and get it back through taxation.


Today's liberal in the US in general sees government as the solution for many people problems, positions himself as the champion of "working people," spends on the basis that to afford it you raise taxes rather than cut unnecessary spending and sees no problem with wealth transfer creating the impression that anyone with some accumulated wealth simply turned over in bed one day and had lots of money completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of today's wealthy actually earned the money honestly. And perhaps most significant ignores ther fact that 60 years of government programs and spending has not solved societies problems.
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What Does a LIberal Want

Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

What a damn good question!

What exactly does an individual have a right to from society or more specifically from society’s government?

I believe we should have a right to food, a roof over our heads and medical care.

I think the UK are right to give council houses and benefits to those who are struggling and free medical care to all.


Not to be corny, but as Jefferson wrote, we are entitled to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, that's it.

Life = freedom from fear and threats to our life

Liberty = the freedom to act for ourselves, to exercise discretion to determine our own destiny and to not be controlled by others or government

Pursuit of Happiness = the ability to work for our goals, the absence of artificial barriers to that happiness, the ability to define our own happiness

Beyond that society determines how it provides for the truly unfortunate who do require assistance from time to time or in some cases for life, but that assistance does not mean everyone is entitled to own a home, go to college or live to a single standard of living.

I find your perpsective of medical care in the UK very interesting and I recently heard a speaker in the US say something similar in promoting "free" government run health care. FREE, really?
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gmc;968679 wrote: That's not actually true they can't claim for children back home in poland any more than you can work in europe and claim benefits for any of your children back home. it's one of the latest stories put about to stir up hatred. I would actually agree with you to some extent about former colonial countries and mass emigration but that one is down to the tories and the remember the empire brigade who thought we had a moral obligation to let them all in. On the other hand most immigrants are actually hard working and out to make a better life for themselves. It's not simply good or bad. Many british people work abroad for the same reason-that's where the work is.

In simplistic terms a liberal stand for individual liberty, free trade, and moderate reform. On other words social justice, free speech equality before the law.


D'you know, I usually check out stories but saw that on a tv documentary and believed it! However, there is a lot of controversy over it and no easy-to-find proof either way.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 891967.ece

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770

In Poland, parents do not have an automatic right to state benefits for their children. Even those payments which are available are strictly means-tested and very few people qualify.

But under EU rules, Polish and other Eastern European parents working in Britain can leave their children at home and still qualify for UK money - £907.40 a year for a single child and £608.40 for each additional one.

To successfully claim, the migrants must be registered to work in Britain. British Customs officials then check with authorities in their home countries to confirm they have children to support.

In Poland, state agencies have been swamped by these checks from Britain. Requests for proof are arriving at a rate of more than 1,000 a week.

Now, Polish officials say that the weight of applications for UK child benefit has left the state agency dealing with the claims facing collapse.

"There's so many to deal with. In some cases whole villages have left to go and work abroad," said Beata Trybowska, of the Krakow branch of the agency responsible for processing the applications.

In Krakow alone, which has lower rates of emigration than many other parts of Poland, figures show that in 2004 - when Poland joined the EU with seven other former Eastern Bloc states - only 100 child benefit claims were made.

Last year, the number had jumped to 1,800 and in the first half of 2006 it was already more than 2,200. Official records put the number of Poles who have registered to live and work in Britain at 230,000. But the true figure is possibly closer to a million.

Last night, a spokeswoman for HM Revenue and Customs confirmed that Eastern European nationals could claim child benefit. She said that under EU rules it was classified an 'exportable benefit'.

Between May 2004 and March 2006 the Government received 37,932 child benefit applications from migrants from new EU states. Of these 20,159 were approved and 6,001 rejected.
"In order claim Child Tax Credit, A8 migrant workers have to register on the Home Office Workers Registration Scheme. This establishes their “right to reside in the U.K.” for the purposes of claiming Child Tax Credit.[xii]

The Tax Credit Office has set up a special unit in Northern Ireland to deal with migrant workers, the international claims processing section. If a migrant worker does not bring their family, they can claim Working Tax Credit, but their partner is ignored when assessing the claim. A separate Child Tax Credit and Child Benefit calculation is performed for the non-resident children.[xiii]

Before Child Tax Credit and Child Benefit is awarded, international claims section has to decide whether the UK or the migrant's home country in which the children reside, is the “competent state”. [xiv]

If the UK is the competent state, the UK pays the family benefits, i.e. Child Tax credit and Child Benefit. If the other member state is competent, then it will pay the family benefits. So long as the migrant worker does not have simultaneous employment outside of the UK, then the UK will be the competent state. This will be the case for the vast majority of migrant workers.[xv]

Even in the few cases where the UK is not the competent state, migrants are entitled to equalization under community law. This means the UK must make up the difference if the competent state pays a lower rate of family benefit than the UK rate. Family Benefits in A8 countries will be a fraction of those paid in the UK.[xvi]


http://forums.gumtree.com/topic65059.html

On the other point, I do agree that most immigrants are actually hard working and out to make a better life for themselves. But whilst we have hard working Muslim families we also have Muslim children growing up in the West, taught the traditions of the East, totally confused and seeking enlightenment and therefore easy prey for brain-washing hard core terrorists. Look at the London bombings, they were all carried out by brainwashed young men. Real terrorists want to create terror, they don't want to waste their lives with a meaningless suicide bomb or get caught by the Police carrying a bomb; they need brain-washed mules for that! These are the youngsters we work hard to pay benefits for!

Gratitude! Pffft!
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QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968887 wrote: Not to be corny, but as Jefferson wrote, we are entitled to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness, that's it.

Life = freedom from fear and threats to our life

Liberty = the freedom to act for ourselves, to exercise discretion to determine our own destiny and to not be controlled by others or government

Pursuit of Happiness = the ability to work for our goals, the absence of artificial barriers to that happiness, the ability to define our own happiness

Beyond that society determines how it provides for the truly unfortunate who do require assistance from time to time or in some cases for life, but that assistance does not mean everyone is entitled to own a home, go to college or live to a single standard of living.

I find your perpsective of medical care in the UK very interesting and I recently heard a speaker in the US say something similar in promoting "free" government run health care. FREE, really?


The world has changed a lot since Jefferson's time and whilst a language that doesn't change and grow, will die, surely so too will political values. We laugh at old laws that once said we could drive our sheep over london Bridge on a Sunday. If you tried to do that you'd be arrested for obstruction at the very least and probably for littering Her Majesty's Highways (with poop doncha know!) and I know the US has equally outdated laws!

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968887 wrote: Life = freedom from fear and threats to our life


Well thats no longer relevant! Victims live in fear whilst Perpetrators are upheld as poor little souls who had bad childhoods and who need understanding!

Note Tony Martin, 58, who lived alone on a remote farm in Norfolk, eastern England. He was burgled a multitude of times and finally burgled and had his life threatened by a 33-year-old thief and his 16-year-old accomplice. In despair he shot them both and the 16-year-old accomplice was killed. Martin wasn't praised for saving his own life - he was jailed for murder!

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968887 wrote: Liberty = the freedom to act for ourselves, to exercise discretion to determine our own destiny and to not be controlled by others or government


People cannot act for themselves! Liberty within the Law - yes; total freedom and Liberty - No! People must be controlled by the Government, as in, by their laws, or else people would simply take justice into their own hands. But then, no one would pay taxes therefore there would be no money to clean the streets of rubbish, we'd be taken over by a plague of rats and then the world population would be decimated by the Plague. Of course, there is a cure - but there'd be no money to distribute it!

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968887 wrote: Pursuit of Happiness = the ability to work for our goals, the absence of artificial barriers to that happiness, the ability to define our own happiness


WORK being the preemptive word. There are artificial barriers in the form of taxes, etc. No-one earns their true worth as we all have to pay taxes - but thats part of living in a 'civilised' society.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968887 wrote: Beyond that society determines how it provides for the truly unfortunate who do require assistance from time to time or in some cases for life, but that assistance does not mean everyone is entitled to own a home, go to college or live to a single standard of living.


I didn't say everyone was entitled to own a home, go to college or live to a single standard of living. I said they were entitled to a roof over their heads (rented), albeit damp, draughty and over-crowded at least it protects them from the elements and you don't have kiddies sleeping on the streets. I think that's appalling, especially as the US is such a rich nation.

Obviously college must be paid for, but here we give loans to go to college and then recover the loan once the student is working. I think this is a better system than making kids work AND study AND attend lectures. Here they do that but the work pays for living expenses not for tuition.

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;968887 wrote: I find your perpsective of medical care in the UK very interesting and I recently heard a speaker in the US say something similar in promoting "free" government run health care. FREE, really?


Yes some people believe that the US should have free medical treatment. I certainly do! People who are sick should be given whatever treatment they need to make them well and it SHOULD NOT depend on their financial situation!

FREE, really?

YES, really!

No, if you're being pedantic, of course it's not free, it's paid for from our taxes.

But Yes free, if you consider that anyone can see a doctor for anything and pay £7 for medication. All hospital treatment and operations are free.

The US is the richest nation in the world yet it will not pay for sick children to have life-saving operations if their parents cannot afford to pay for it. We pay more for food, petrol, etc., than you do, but better that and free hospital care than cheaper food and petrol and dead children for want of a little cash.

Sorry if that sounds harsh.
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Rapunzel;968663 wrote: I believe we should have a right to food, a roof over our heads and medical care.Really? So if I choose to do nothing at all I should be able to expect the government to feed, clothe, & house me, and keep me healthy? And if I should raise my kids that it's pointless to work or contribute to society because all the basics are provided - that's okay too?
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The US is the richest nation in the world yet it will not pay for sick children to have life-saving operations if their parents cannot afford to pay for it. We pay more for food, petrol, etc., than you do, but better that and free hospital care than cheaper food and petrol and dead children for want of a little cash.

Sorry if that sounds harsh.


Your views on the world and on Jeffersons principles of human rights are frankly beyond by comprehension. The world may have changed but that does not mean our values should have changed with it. The problem you point out with the three rights in today's society are our own doing and our own shortcomings not the other way around as you appear to perceive it.

But regardless, the issue is whether it is government that can solve such problems and the answer is no it cannot and should not. Marxism and socialism have been tried and both failed to achieve the desired results (if the result you want is every citizen being equal in income, wealth and achievement). In the US we have tried every government program to lift the poor, to educate children, even to strengthen families. From the great society of the 1960s to Sen Obamas idea to transfer wealth even to those who do not pay taxes and still there is poverty, still urban children are left behind and more.

The ills of society have been with us since time began and while we can alieve some of the hardship we cannot eliminate it as the flaw is in human beings, we are not all equal in design or our life experiences and it will always be so.

Shouldn't we ask that if government is the answer why are the problems still with us?

AND ONE MORE point, children who need medical care do not go without care in the US. In fact, many children from around the world come to the US for free and very expensive care. Granted there are many problems with the US health care system, but rationing care (called by any other name) as is done in the UK is not one of them. In fact, one of the cost problems with health care in the US is that we are subsidizing much of the rest of the world where govenrment limits the cost of things like drugs and the US makes up the difference effectively paying for much if not most of the reserach and development..and by the way you are welcome.
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Post by gmc »

posted by quins commentary

Marxism and socialism have been tried and both failed to achieve the desired results (if the result you want is every citizen being equal in income, wealth and achievement). In the US we have tried every government program to lift the poor, to educate children, even to strengthen families. From the great society of the 1960s to Sen Obamas idea to transfer wealth even to those who do not pay taxes and still there is poverty, still urban children are left behind and more.




Part of the problem is the words have slightly different connotations on both sides of the atlantic. Communism and socialism are not one and the same, Marxism is one thread of socialist development and nowadays revolutionary socialism is held to only by a few die hards who spout the rhetoric as if it was passages from the bible. The world has changed and political philosophies move on as well. Socialism has a long history of development and intertwines with liberalism and that aspect of liberal thought known as capitalism. As an american you owe much to what would now be regarded as early socialist philosophies. A belief in Liberty, free speech and the demand to be treated as an equal and have a say in how you are governed were once highly dangerous anti-establishment ideas that were treasonous. You hold liberal values close to your heart you just don't recognise them for what they are.

Most countries in europe have democratic socialist political parties of one kind or another. We have tried socialism and dumped what didn't work and kept the bits we like.

America is only now having the kind of debates we had in the aftermath of ww2. Pick the best of other peoples health care and sort it out yourselves without this all or nothing way americans seem to see things. Mix and match.

Post ww2 Britain elected a socialist government with a landslide victory. That's why we have things like the NHS and at one point nationalised industries like gas and electricity and british Leyland. . Dear old Maggie denationalised everything and now all our utilities are owned by foreigners and we are held to ransom but that's a different debate altogether that would be irrelevant to you.

I find your perpsective of medical care in the UK very interesting and I recently heard a speaker in the US say something




We decided that medical care was something everyone should have as a right regardless of income. You need to discuss it and decide for yourselves.

You need a balance between free markets and public accountability if only to stop monopolies developing, incidentally Monopolies are BAD for free market and any good capitalist should be in favour of government control to some extent. Elected government is how a free people make their will known. You need to decide if government is by the people for the people means the great unwashed, feckless poor and generally worthless get a say or whether it should serve business interests alone and everything else takes second place to that-but then who gets to decide what is important.
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

. Dear old Maggie denationalised everything and now all our utilities are owned by foreigners and we are held to ransom but that's a different debate altogether that would be irrelevant to you.


Interesting, we feel the same way as National Grid bought several of our electric and gas utilities in New York and the Northeast.
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Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;969631 wrote: .

Interesting, we feel the same way as National Grid bought several of our electric and gas utilities in New York and the Northeast.


So there are some things like utilities and say also the water supply that you feel so essential to everybody that they should not be exploited solely for private profit but there should be a measure of social control on the behaviour of the companies?
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Post by K.Snyder »

Opportunity for Caucasians was incrementally more pragmatic the further back in history you go in the United States...

I would not expect someone to whom sells hot dogs has just as much of a chance to turn his business into a multi-million dollar establishment as someone had 50 years ago...

That doesn't mean I think life is hell in the U.S now but it's surely not what it used to be...

African-Americans are gaining more and more opportunities in the U.S. but not nearly as ideally as I'd like to see...

The rest is speculation...

I'm wondering how long you think America will rule with capitalism before diving into diverse socialistic grandeur because we all know by proof of history that America is no different than Russias' infrastructure rather than age...
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

gmc;969747 wrote: So there are some things like utilities and say also the water supply that you feel so essential to everybody that they should not be exploited solely for private profit but there should be a measure of social control on the behaviour of the companies?


Not at all, I was merely pointing out that it goes both ways in terms of who owns what and where.

In fact, I worked for a private electric and gas utility that has been in business since 1903 for 47 years and has served the people well all that time. The utility is still regulated as to what it can charge, but the generation is an open market and other utilities can sell to our customers, but more important the incentive creates ongoing searches for new energy sources, for efficient interconnecting grids and there is a stong incentive to keep prices low (or you will lose to those who do).

Most people who complain about their electric costs forget that much of the increase in their bill over the last 20 years has come from their increased use, not the increase in unit costs. In fact, in my companies case there was no rate increase for over seven years.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



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Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;969631 wrote: .

Interesting, we feel the same way as National Grid bought several of our electric and gas utilities in New York and the Northeast.


What were you referring to then? Are national grid a foreign company then?
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

gmc;970412 wrote: What were you referring to then? Are national grid a foreign company then?


National Grid is a UK company that owns utlities in the US.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



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Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;970823 wrote: National Grid is a UK company that owns utlities in the US.


There you are you see, if you have a free market economy foreigners can end up owning bits of your country and businesses. Liberal economics in action. The American economy has benefited considerably from free trade agreements (have a look at the economic statistics after every round of gatt agreements) but every time there is bit of a recession protectionism rears it's ugly head cos it makes for good soundbites.
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

gmc;971141 wrote: There you are you see, if you have a free market economy foreigners can end up owning bits of your country and businesses. Liberal economics in action. The American economy has benefited considerably from free trade agreements (have a look at the economic statistics after every round of gatt agreements) but every time there is bit of a recession protectionism rears it's ugly head cos it makes for good soundbites.


Can't argue with that. Our politicians have a nack for telling people what they want hear and making a show of it all and the facts be damned.
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"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



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Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;971798 wrote: Can't argue with that. Our politicians have a nack for telling people what they want hear and making a show of it all and the facts be damned.


Yes but the people don't have to fall for it do they? They (the people) are after all the ones with the final say on matters.
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

gmc;973385 wrote: Yes but the people don't have to fall for it do they? They (the people) are after all the ones with the final say on matters.


Most voters (at least here) are uniformed boobs who could not name the second President of the US or find Iraq on the map. Studies have shown that the majority of Americans can't pass the simple test given to people who want to become citizens.

People get what they deserve and that is the scary part, but for at least the last 230 years it seems to have worked for the most part, but frankly I worry about the future.

Most people simply do not get the changing world we live in. The more they fight for the status quo, the deeper we get into trouble. We are getting deeper into a reactive mode rather than proactive.

For example, if six countries ever get together and say from now on we are selling all of our oil to China, the US is screwed or at war all over the world.
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"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



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Post by K.Snyder »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;973877 wrote: Most voters (at least here) are uniformed boobs who could not name the second President of the US or find Iraq on the map. Studies have shown that the majority of Americans can't pass the simple test given to people who want to become citizens. I don't think in the least knowing who the second president of the United States of America was dictates their ability to understand present concerns associated with their government...All one needs is a bit of humility and understanding of the system...It's up to the politicians to create suitable propositions based off of past experiences and it's up to the people to bring that to fruition...

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;973877 wrote:

People get what they deserve and that is the scary part, but for at least the last 230 years it seems to have worked for the most part, but frankly I worry about the future. I don't know anyone who could rightfully judge what it is people deserve...Voting for politicians does not make people deserve what it is said politicians do in office that they had not mentioned in their campaigns...People deserve the policies orchestrated by said politicians from which they'd expressed throughout their campaign nothing more...

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;973877 wrote:

Most people simply do not get the changing world we live in. The more they fight for the status quo, the deeper we get into trouble. We are getting deeper into a reactive mode rather than proactive.

For example, if six countries ever get together and say from now on we are selling all of our oil to China, the US is screwed or at war all over the world.I agree to a larger extent on this...People could help the industry divert(For the better of humanity and the Earth) to the production of alternative fuels by simply boycotting todays automobile industry or at least not buying as many gas guzzlers...
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Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;973877 wrote: Most voters (at least here) are uniformed boobs who could not name the second President of the US or find Iraq on the map. Studies have shown that the majority of Americans can't pass the simple test given to people who want to become citizens.

People get what they deserve and that is the scary part, but for at least the last 230 years it seems to have worked for the most part, but frankly I worry about the future.

Most people simply do not get the changing world we live in. The more they fight for the status quo, the deeper we get into trouble. We are getting deeper into a reactive mode rather than proactive.

For example, if six countries ever get together and say from now on we are selling all of our oil to China, the US is screwed or at war all over the world.


Actially I don't know who the second president of the united states is either. I do know, however, that the first one was inspired by the roman dictator cincinnatus. Do they teach you about such things at school?

Most people simply do not get the changing world we live in. The more they fight for the status quo, the deeper we get into trouble. We are getting deeper into a reactive mode rather than proactive.

For example, if six countries ever get together and say from now on we are selling all of our oil to China, the US is screwed or at war all over the world.


There's a thing, the present incumbent seems quite capable of going to war should any of those countries actually do that. McCain seems of the same mentality. There does seem a possibility the US will slide in to ever more right wing politics both at home and abroad.
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

gmc;974121 wrote: Actially I don't know who the second president of the united states is either. I do know, however, that the first one was inspired by the roman dictator cincinnatus. Do they teach you about such things at school?

For the record it was John Adams.

Frankly, I never heard about the Cincinnatus angle or even that name before, but I have studied Washington quite a bit, reading a score of detailed biographies by a different historians and I have to say, he was about as close to the real deal as you can get.

There's a thing, the present incumbent seems quite capable of going to war should any of those countries actually do that. McCain seems of the same mentality. There does seem a possibility the US will slide in to ever more right wing politics both at home and abroad.


I don't think McCain is the same because he knows what war really means and the people today making decions don't. McCain is not right wing, far from it. A person can have a conservative bent and not be extreme. What we need is something a few degrees right of center.
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"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

rjwould;973966 wrote: I thought you already knew, Quinn.

1)We want people like you to go to school and work hard to get good grades while we skip class and get high.

2)We want people like you to go out and work your way to the top while sacrificing family and friends while we go out and get laid and have children out of wedlock.

3)We want people like you to pay for all our health insurance and food while we sit in front of the television and get unhealthily fat.

4)We want people like you to go to churh every sunday a pay homage to God so we don't have to and so we can even mock him/her/it.

5)We want people like you to pay our mortgages, electric, gas and water bills while we host elaborate parties for our elitists circle of friends whom are all the product of the welfare state of mind.

Any more questions?:)


I was wondering what happended to you, here I go off to Russia and you dissappear.

I am glad you clarified things. It makes me feel better. All along I thought you wanted "free" healthcare paid for by the "government," Social Security as the primary retirement income source, a check going to every family that didn't pay income taxes, to close off trade outside the US borders and a union in every business (my God it could take ten minutes to get a late' at Starbucks if that happens). :wah:
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw



"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



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Post by gmc »

Bush bails out US mortgage giants




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 22473.html

Well well well. One thing a liberal wouldn't do is prop up failing businesses. Any executives lost their jobs over this yet? This credit crunch is entirely self made. The only thing that stops European banks feeling smug is that they are involved as well through american subsidiaries. Ironic isn't it, right wing governments bailing out companies with taxpayers money. Now what kind of fiscal responsibility is there when companies aren't allowed to fail. Wonder if they will also bail out smaller businesses going to the wall because they can't get working credit.
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Post by QUINNSCOMMENTARY »

gmc;976706 wrote: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 22473.html

Well well well. One thing a liberal wouldn't do is prop up failing businesses. Any executives lost their jobs over this yet? This credit crunch is entirely self made. The only thing that stops European banks feeling smug is that they are involved as well through american subsidiaries. Ironic isn't it, right wing governments bailing out companies with taxpayers money. Now what kind of fiscal responsibility is there when companies aren't allowed to fail. Wonder if they will also bail out smaller businesses going to the wall because they can't get working credit.


Quite true, but the excuse, the same one used to bail out individuals is that it is not good for the country to have a lot of people who can't keep their home or in this case buy ones in the first place. Of course, that is only part of the story. The other logic is that these are quasi government organizations, but frankly I don't understand myself their structure.

And yes, the two CEOs are expected to be gone very shortly (do doubt with a large severance package).
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"If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking" Gen. George Patton



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Post by gmc »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;976749 wrote: Quite true, but the excuse, the same one used to bail out individuals is that it is not good for the country to have a lot of people who can't keep their home or in this case buy ones in the first place. Of course, that is only part of the story. The other logic is that these are quasi government organizations, but frankly I don't understand myself their structure.

And yes, the two CEOs are expected to be gone very shortly (do doubt with a large severance package).


Actually i don't either. I didn't realise they were actually government agencies-I thought they were private banks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008 ... imecrisis2

the two government agencies that between them underwrite half the mortgages in the US.
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Post by sunny104 »

gmc;978078 wrote: Actually i don't either. I didn't realise they were actually government agencies-I thought they were private banks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008 ... imecrisis2


just like a liberal to believe the first thing you read without finding out all the facts. :sneaky: :wah:
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Post by gmc »

sunny104;978350 wrote: just like a liberal to believe the first thing you read without finding out all the facts. :sneaky: :wah:


Just like a liberal I checked things out to find out more rather than just believing what is in the media. Having benefited from a liberal education I can read and write and also think for myself.:sneaky:

Not being an american I had never heard of these two quaintly named organisations until this week.
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Post by Nomad »

Im confused.

Whats important again ?





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Post by gmc »

Nomad;979353 wrote: Im confused.

Whats important again ?








Don't know about the accuracy of this one but

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
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Post by Richard Bell »

QUINNSCOMMENTARY;973877 wrote: uniformed boobs


Here ya go : :D

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