Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
Virtually all of our political leaders have a college or university education. Many of our political leaders have an Ivy League education which often means six years of higher education; four years getting some kind of undergraduate degree followed by two years for an MBA.
Often the student receiving a higher education does so while being supported by his or her parents. This means that often adolescence extends beyond the mid-twenties.
In other words many of our political and industrial leaders have had a much extended adolescence.
I would say that a child lives from birth through adolescence in a state highly dictated by the pleasure-principle and accepts the reality-principle as the sign of maturity. Extended adolescence means that many individuals do not become mature adults until well into their twenties.
Can a culture survive such a situation?
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
It's advancing faster, with longer lives, better education, better health, and higher literacy rates than it ever has before.
Seems like we're doing alright.
Devonin - Who feels that the many thousands of dollars in debt he has, and the many thousands of dollars of scholarships he earned for his education lend a lie to Coberst's claim that even "many" people are supported nearly as much by their parents as he wants to think.
Seems like we're doing alright.
Devonin - Who feels that the many thousands of dollars in debt he has, and the many thousands of dollars of scholarships he earned for his education lend a lie to Coberst's claim that even "many" people are supported nearly as much by their parents as he wants to think.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
coberst;978839 wrote: Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
Virtually all of our political leaders have a college or university education. Many of our political leaders have an Ivy League education which often means six years of higher education; four years getting some kind of undergraduate degree followed by two years for an MBA.
Often the student receiving a higher education does so while being supported by his or her parents. This means that often adolescence extends beyond the mid-twenties.
In other words many of our political and industrial leaders have had a much extended adolescence.
I would say that a child lives from birth through adolescence in a state highly dictated by the pleasure-principle and accepts the reality-principle as the sign of maturity. Extended adolescence means that many individuals do not become mature adults until well into their twenties.
Can a culture survive such a situation?
You're basing your entire thesis off of the belief that learning, or at least ones willingness to learn, is the primary definition of adolescence...
I have to disagree...One can learn things that not only stalls their maturity but can actually cause them to lower their self worth...People learn wickedness very much the same way they learn things like todays' society would like to portray to be good "morally" but really most of my observations sees "higher educational learning" being the primary focal point of sustaining that particular societies' virtue...Just because we're in the now does not make the "now" ideal...
Which brings me to my point that ones' ""higher educational learning"" is anothers' farce and is evident by the fact said person needs a degree in alot of jobs he can just as adequately do without one...
How do we make the college ""degree"" something that is worth it's weight in gold?...
Virtually all of our political leaders have a college or university education. Many of our political leaders have an Ivy League education which often means six years of higher education; four years getting some kind of undergraduate degree followed by two years for an MBA.
Often the student receiving a higher education does so while being supported by his or her parents. This means that often adolescence extends beyond the mid-twenties.
In other words many of our political and industrial leaders have had a much extended adolescence.
I would say that a child lives from birth through adolescence in a state highly dictated by the pleasure-principle and accepts the reality-principle as the sign of maturity. Extended adolescence means that many individuals do not become mature adults until well into their twenties.
Can a culture survive such a situation?
You're basing your entire thesis off of the belief that learning, or at least ones willingness to learn, is the primary definition of adolescence...
I have to disagree...One can learn things that not only stalls their maturity but can actually cause them to lower their self worth...People learn wickedness very much the same way they learn things like todays' society would like to portray to be good "morally" but really most of my observations sees "higher educational learning" being the primary focal point of sustaining that particular societies' virtue...Just because we're in the now does not make the "now" ideal...
Which brings me to my point that ones' ""higher educational learning"" is anothers' farce and is evident by the fact said person needs a degree in alot of jobs he can just as adequately do without one...
How do we make the college ""degree"" something that is worth it's weight in gold?...
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
coberst;978839 wrote: Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
Virtually all of our political leaders have a college or university education. Many of our political leaders have an Ivy League education which often means six years of higher education; four years getting some kind of undergraduate degree followed by two years for an MBA.
Often the student receiving a higher education does so while being supported by his or her parents. This means that often adolescence extends beyond the mid-twenties.
In other words many of our political and industrial leaders have had a much extended adolescence.
I would say that a child lives from birth through adolescence in a state highly dictated by the pleasure-principle and accepts the reality-principle as the sign of maturity. Extended adolescence means that many individuals do not become mature adults until well into their twenties.
Can a culture survive such a situation?
There are some like myself that went to college under the Korean GI Bill.married with a child and working 25 hours a week. A large number of Viet Nam Vets did likewise.
Virtually all of our political leaders have a college or university education. Many of our political leaders have an Ivy League education which often means six years of higher education; four years getting some kind of undergraduate degree followed by two years for an MBA.
Often the student receiving a higher education does so while being supported by his or her parents. This means that often adolescence extends beyond the mid-twenties.
In other words many of our political and industrial leaders have had a much extended adolescence.
I would say that a child lives from birth through adolescence in a state highly dictated by the pleasure-principle and accepts the reality-principle as the sign of maturity. Extended adolescence means that many individuals do not become mature adults until well into their twenties.
Can a culture survive such a situation?
There are some like myself that went to college under the Korean GI Bill.married with a child and working 25 hours a week. A large number of Viet Nam Vets did likewise.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
Lon;979258 wrote: There are some like myself that went to college under the Korean GI Bill.married with a child and working 25 hours a week. A large number of Viet Nam Vets did likewise.
I did likewise. The student going to college on the GI Bill was far more mature than the college student supported by parents going from high school to college. We need some way for the high school graduate, i.e. the 18 year old, to become a responsible adult before the age of twenty.
I did likewise. The student going to college on the GI Bill was far more mature than the college student supported by parents going from high school to college. We need some way for the high school graduate, i.e. the 18 year old, to become a responsible adult before the age of twenty.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
You really have no concept of how the college/university experience is do you.
I'd call my moving 6 hours away, living alone, responsible for my own schoolwork, transportation, clothing, living arrangements, food, entertainment and basically every other aspect of living in the world something that might, maybe, have contributed a little to my maturity.
I'd call my moving 6 hours away, living alone, responsible for my own schoolwork, transportation, clothing, living arrangements, food, entertainment and basically every other aspect of living in the world something that might, maybe, have contributed a little to my maturity.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
http://www.newsweek.com/id/156372/page/1
"What used to be regressive weekends are now whole years in the lives of some guys," Kimmel tells NEWSWEEK. In almost 400 interviews with mainly white, college-educated twentysomethings, he found that the lockstep march to manhood is often interrupted by a debauched and decadelong odyssey, in which youths buddy together in search of new ways to feel like men. Actually, it's more like all the old ways—drinking, smoking, kidding, carousing—turned up a notch in a world where adolescent demonstrations of manhood have replaced the real thing: responsibility. Kimmel's testosterone tract adds to a forest of recent research into protracted adolescents (or "thresholders" and "kidults," as they've also been dubbed) and the reluctance of today's guys to don their fathers' robes—and commitments. They "see grown-up life as such a loss," says Kimmel, explaining why so many guys are content to sit out their 20s in duct-taped beanbag chairs. The trouble is that the very thing they're running from may be the thing they need.
"What used to be regressive weekends are now whole years in the lives of some guys," Kimmel tells NEWSWEEK. In almost 400 interviews with mainly white, college-educated twentysomethings, he found that the lockstep march to manhood is often interrupted by a debauched and decadelong odyssey, in which youths buddy together in search of new ways to feel like men. Actually, it's more like all the old ways—drinking, smoking, kidding, carousing—turned up a notch in a world where adolescent demonstrations of manhood have replaced the real thing: responsibility. Kimmel's testosterone tract adds to a forest of recent research into protracted adolescents (or "thresholders" and "kidults," as they've also been dubbed) and the reluctance of today's guys to don their fathers' robes—and commitments. They "see grown-up life as such a loss," says Kimmel, explaining why so many guys are content to sit out their 20s in duct-taped beanbag chairs. The trouble is that the very thing they're running from may be the thing they need.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
coberst;979264 wrote: I did likewise. The student going to college on the GI Bill was far more mature than the college student supported by parents going from high school to college. We need some way for the high school graduate, i.e. the 18 year old, to become a responsible adult before the age of twenty.
I agree---------I look at my 20 year old 6' 6" grand son and just shake my head. I love him, but he has the social skills of a 14 year old and the maturity of a 13 year old.
I agree---------I look at my 20 year old 6' 6" grand son and just shake my head. I love him, but he has the social skills of a 14 year old and the maturity of a 13 year old.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
Devonin;979284 wrote: You really have no concept of how the college/university experience is do you.
I'd call my moving 6 hours away, living alone, responsible for my own schoolwork, transportation, clothing, living arrangements, food, entertainment and basically every other aspect of living in the world something that might, maybe, have contributed a little to my maturity.
Compare that Devonin, with a 18 year old moving 5,000 miles away with the army, to Korea, getting shot at, wounded, entering college at age 21, married with a child at age 22 and graduating at age 25.
I'd call my moving 6 hours away, living alone, responsible for my own schoolwork, transportation, clothing, living arrangements, food, entertainment and basically every other aspect of living in the world something that might, maybe, have contributed a little to my maturity.
Compare that Devonin, with a 18 year old moving 5,000 miles away with the army, to Korea, getting shot at, wounded, entering college at age 21, married with a child at age 22 and graduating at age 25.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
I'm about as positive as one can be that you can't simply make an objective comparison like that. Further, once again I suggest that you can't just conclude categorically that every person who has ever had military service is automatically more adult or more mature than someone who hasn't.
I know many people in the military who aren't mature, married people who aren't mature, people with children who aren't mature, and many people who've done none of those things who are perfectly mature.
It never ceases to amaze me how older generations will leap at any means they can to denigrate the youth of today, like it is somehow their right because "they had it harder" to just conclude that nobody today could -possibly- know what it was like.
Also, I'm pretty sure that your grandson being 6'6 shouldn't have anything to do with your point. I'm not sure what to tell you about him, but I know that my grandfather played a fairly integral role in building my maturity, so if your grandson is so far behind in terms of his maturity and social skills, perhaps you should have sent him overseas to get shot, since that appears to be the magic bullet (har har) for instantly becoming a mature and responsible adult.
Perhaps more importantly, you guys seem to fail to be considering something rather significant here. Every year that goes by, people are living longer. 125 years ago, when the average lower-middle class worker could expect to have maybe 40 years of reasonable health before they basically started to become too sick and weak to work, you entered the working world at 12 years old, worked full time largely with no education until you were 40, and you were pretty lucky to make it to 50 in anything approaching good health.
Should we be pointing out what failures you and Coberst are for ONLY starting to enter maturity at 18 or 20, when a few generations previously, they were there at 14 or 15? Of course not. You gentlemen are already rather past the life expectancy of those earlier generations to be healthy, active and taking part in the world. You didn't NEED to be a mature working adult at 12 because you didn't need to be worried about dying at 50.
There's been more and more of a recent trend that the old-fashioned full-time 40 hours a week office job simply isn't the way things need to be anymore. We've carved out this cognitive surplus (http://blip.tv/file/855937) in a way that makes it so we simply have more options for how to live our lives. People are getting married later, having fewer children, later in life, and it is simply the case that it is becoming more easy for someone to actually do what they -want- to do, because the pressures are lessening to do what "needs to be done" to support a family.
A single male, living alone can support themselves in relative comfort on a 20 hour a week minimum wage job. Add in a roomate or two in a typically sized apartment and it becomes even easier.
What is happening isn't a negative process of increasingly immature adults you should be ashamed of, what is happening is a positive process of increasing understanding that you can actually do what you want to do, and be alright. Not everyone dreams of a wife, 2 kids, a white picket fence and lunch dates with the friendly neighbours over a pork roast anymore.
I live in a house with three friends, two of whom are married to one another, all of us over the age of 24. Three are graduates of post-secondary studies, we have a teacher, an auto mechanic, someone in bookstore management, and a part-time student. We all of us do perfectly fine the way we are, and I dare say nobody needed to get shot in order to get to where we are today, educated, intelligent, functioning, contributing members of society.
I know many people in the military who aren't mature, married people who aren't mature, people with children who aren't mature, and many people who've done none of those things who are perfectly mature.
It never ceases to amaze me how older generations will leap at any means they can to denigrate the youth of today, like it is somehow their right because "they had it harder" to just conclude that nobody today could -possibly- know what it was like.
Also, I'm pretty sure that your grandson being 6'6 shouldn't have anything to do with your point. I'm not sure what to tell you about him, but I know that my grandfather played a fairly integral role in building my maturity, so if your grandson is so far behind in terms of his maturity and social skills, perhaps you should have sent him overseas to get shot, since that appears to be the magic bullet (har har) for instantly becoming a mature and responsible adult.
Perhaps more importantly, you guys seem to fail to be considering something rather significant here. Every year that goes by, people are living longer. 125 years ago, when the average lower-middle class worker could expect to have maybe 40 years of reasonable health before they basically started to become too sick and weak to work, you entered the working world at 12 years old, worked full time largely with no education until you were 40, and you were pretty lucky to make it to 50 in anything approaching good health.
Should we be pointing out what failures you and Coberst are for ONLY starting to enter maturity at 18 or 20, when a few generations previously, they were there at 14 or 15? Of course not. You gentlemen are already rather past the life expectancy of those earlier generations to be healthy, active and taking part in the world. You didn't NEED to be a mature working adult at 12 because you didn't need to be worried about dying at 50.
There's been more and more of a recent trend that the old-fashioned full-time 40 hours a week office job simply isn't the way things need to be anymore. We've carved out this cognitive surplus (http://blip.tv/file/855937) in a way that makes it so we simply have more options for how to live our lives. People are getting married later, having fewer children, later in life, and it is simply the case that it is becoming more easy for someone to actually do what they -want- to do, because the pressures are lessening to do what "needs to be done" to support a family.
A single male, living alone can support themselves in relative comfort on a 20 hour a week minimum wage job. Add in a roomate or two in a typically sized apartment and it becomes even easier.
What is happening isn't a negative process of increasingly immature adults you should be ashamed of, what is happening is a positive process of increasing understanding that you can actually do what you want to do, and be alright. Not everyone dreams of a wife, 2 kids, a white picket fence and lunch dates with the friendly neighbours over a pork roast anymore.
I live in a house with three friends, two of whom are married to one another, all of us over the age of 24. Three are graduates of post-secondary studies, we have a teacher, an auto mechanic, someone in bookstore management, and a part-time student. We all of us do perfectly fine the way we are, and I dare say nobody needed to get shot in order to get to where we are today, educated, intelligent, functioning, contributing members of society.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
Devonin;979736 wrote: I'm about as positive as one can be that you can't simply make an objective comparison like that. Further, once again I suggest that you can't just conclude categorically that every person who has ever had military service is automatically more adult or more mature
than someone who hasn't.
I know many people in the military who aren't mature, married people who aren't mature, people with children who aren't mature, and many people who've done none of those things who are perfectly mature.
It never ceases to amaze me how older generations will leap at any means they can to denigrate the youth of today, like it is somehow their right because "they had it harder" to just conclude that nobody today could -possibly- know what it was like.
Also, I'm pretty sure that your grandson being 6'6 shouldn't have anything to do with your point. I'm not sure what to tell you about him, but I know that my grandfather played a fairly integral role in building my maturity, so if your grandson is so far behind in terms of his maturity and social skills, perhaps you should have sent him overseas to get shot, since that appears to be the magic bullet (har har) for instantly becoming a mature and responsible adult.
Relax Devonin--------no one is denigrating the youth of today, just drawing some comparisons with the prior generations who generally speaking grew up and matured a bit faster due to the times in which they lived. It's not just the military, it's the totality of experiences that my generation was exposed to and lived through at a much earlier age than today's youth. You have missed I think, the whole point. Today's young people will reach total maturity, it just takes a little longer. My generation has a bit of an advantage in that we can see both sides of the coin, you on the other hand can only view one side.
than someone who hasn't.
I know many people in the military who aren't mature, married people who aren't mature, people with children who aren't mature, and many people who've done none of those things who are perfectly mature.
It never ceases to amaze me how older generations will leap at any means they can to denigrate the youth of today, like it is somehow their right because "they had it harder" to just conclude that nobody today could -possibly- know what it was like.
Also, I'm pretty sure that your grandson being 6'6 shouldn't have anything to do with your point. I'm not sure what to tell you about him, but I know that my grandfather played a fairly integral role in building my maturity, so if your grandson is so far behind in terms of his maturity and social skills, perhaps you should have sent him overseas to get shot, since that appears to be the magic bullet (har har) for instantly becoming a mature and responsible adult.
Relax Devonin--------no one is denigrating the youth of today, just drawing some comparisons with the prior generations who generally speaking grew up and matured a bit faster due to the times in which they lived. It's not just the military, it's the totality of experiences that my generation was exposed to and lived through at a much earlier age than today's youth. You have missed I think, the whole point. Today's young people will reach total maturity, it just takes a little longer. My generation has a bit of an advantage in that we can see both sides of the coin, you on the other hand can only view one side.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
There you go denigrating us again.
How exactly do you see "both sides" of the coin of "growing up in society X"
You know what it was like to grow up there, and have only second-hand information about what it is like to grow up today. Exactly what those of us who grew up in this society have with regards to yours.
Now, if you'll excuse me for a few hours, I have to go to one of the two jobs I work full time in order to save money to pay down the debt I gathered while getting through university without my parents hand-holding me along. It's nothing compared to getting shot, but I think I'll do alright.
How exactly do you see "both sides" of the coin of "growing up in society X"
You know what it was like to grow up there, and have only second-hand information about what it is like to grow up today. Exactly what those of us who grew up in this society have with regards to yours.
Now, if you'll excuse me for a few hours, I have to go to one of the two jobs I work full time in order to save money to pay down the debt I gathered while getting through university without my parents hand-holding me along. It's nothing compared to getting shot, but I think I'll do alright.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
Devonin;979793 wrote: There you go denigrating us again.
How exactly do you see "both sides" of the coin of "growing up in society X"
You know what it was like to grow up there, and have only second-hand information about what it is like to grow up today. Exactly what those of us who grew up in this society have with regards to yours.
Now, if you'll excuse me for a few hours, I have to go to one of the two jobs I work full time in order to save money to pay down the debt I gathered while getting through university without my parents hand-holding me along. It's nothing compared to getting shot, but I think I'll do alright.
Wow!! You are sensitive --------It's called perspective Devonin--------my generation has been young and now we are old, you have yet to be old.
With you being in uni, you are obviously aware of the young people that are unlike you. I salute your efforts and you give every evidence of rapid maturity and I am sure you will do just fine, as will your peer group.
How exactly do you see "both sides" of the coin of "growing up in society X"
You know what it was like to grow up there, and have only second-hand information about what it is like to grow up today. Exactly what those of us who grew up in this society have with regards to yours.
Now, if you'll excuse me for a few hours, I have to go to one of the two jobs I work full time in order to save money to pay down the debt I gathered while getting through university without my parents hand-holding me along. It's nothing compared to getting shot, but I think I'll do alright.
Wow!! You are sensitive --------It's called perspective Devonin--------my generation has been young and now we are old, you have yet to be old.
With you being in uni, you are obviously aware of the young people that are unlike you. I salute your efforts and you give every evidence of rapid maturity and I am sure you will do just fine, as will your peer group.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
Devonin;979793 wrote:
Now, if you'll excuse me for a few hours, I have to go to one of the two jobs I work full time in order to save money to pay down the debt I gathered while getting through university without my parents hand-holding me along. It's nothing compared to getting shot, but I think I'll do alright.
:wah:
Laughing at you but not in an offensive way. :-4
Now, if you'll excuse me for a few hours, I have to go to one of the two jobs I work full time in order to save money to pay down the debt I gathered while getting through university without my parents hand-holding me along. It's nothing compared to getting shot, but I think I'll do alright.
:wah:
Laughing at you but not in an offensive way. :-4
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
I think the education thing is another aspect that you perhaps aren't giving enough credence to.
I'm curious if you remember roughly how many people, as a percentage, started highschool with you and went on to graduate, and then how many such graduates went on to post-secondary education?
From all accounts of other retired/near-retired people, the vast majority of highschoolers of that generation left highschool and went directly into the workforce. I'd expect perhaps something on the order of maybe 20-30% of graduates going on to college/university? Maybe 40-60% of those being people going into 2-year tradeschool sorts of things? Correct me if I'm substantially off.
Today, the vast vast majority of even entry-level career jobs require a university degree, such that it becomes less and less viable to enter the work force directly from highschool.
When I graduated highschool, my highschool made a very blatant point of pride with regards to the fact that we had something like a 75% instance of people attending post-secondary education.
Since traditionally, "growing up" tends to be associated with the time that you are being formally educated, and the time that most people feel required to be formally educated in today's society has become 2-4 years longer, it really shouldn't seem that surprising, that the time people take to "grow up" has also become a few years longer. You aren't as independant at 18 with 4 more years of school ahead of you than you were at 18 when it was a perfectly good time to go out and get a full time job.
I'm curious if you remember roughly how many people, as a percentage, started highschool with you and went on to graduate, and then how many such graduates went on to post-secondary education?
From all accounts of other retired/near-retired people, the vast majority of highschoolers of that generation left highschool and went directly into the workforce. I'd expect perhaps something on the order of maybe 20-30% of graduates going on to college/university? Maybe 40-60% of those being people going into 2-year tradeschool sorts of things? Correct me if I'm substantially off.
Today, the vast vast majority of even entry-level career jobs require a university degree, such that it becomes less and less viable to enter the work force directly from highschool.
When I graduated highschool, my highschool made a very blatant point of pride with regards to the fact that we had something like a 75% instance of people attending post-secondary education.
Since traditionally, "growing up" tends to be associated with the time that you are being formally educated, and the time that most people feel required to be formally educated in today's society has become 2-4 years longer, it really shouldn't seem that surprising, that the time people take to "grow up" has also become a few years longer. You aren't as independant at 18 with 4 more years of school ahead of you than you were at 18 when it was a perfectly good time to go out and get a full time job.
Extended Adolescence and Higher Education
I can understand both sides...I have to go with Lon and cobersts' position on this one while still emphasizing I completely can empathize with those college students today to whom achieve all of their credibility on their own...
I've been recently searching my family history and while I've always heard of my parents falling on rough times it's become more and more evident the further I search...It's one thing to hear your parents speak of it and completely another to actually see it written down...Knowing where they've grown up and seeing each child leave at very young ages only to have a family of 4 before their 24th birthday...Most forget the technologies that's become that much more prolific in todays' society not to mention the fact that the economy has never been better throughout all of it's history...
The economy doesn't dictate luxuries for nothing and luxuries most assuredly dictates ones' fortitude in my opinion...
What's left is the question ""Would you rather have gone to college then or now?""...
Simple answer for me really.
I've been recently searching my family history and while I've always heard of my parents falling on rough times it's become more and more evident the further I search...It's one thing to hear your parents speak of it and completely another to actually see it written down...Knowing where they've grown up and seeing each child leave at very young ages only to have a family of 4 before their 24th birthday...Most forget the technologies that's become that much more prolific in todays' society not to mention the fact that the economy has never been better throughout all of it's history...
The economy doesn't dictate luxuries for nothing and luxuries most assuredly dictates ones' fortitude in my opinion...
What's left is the question ""Would you rather have gone to college then or now?""...
Simple answer for me really.