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Bruv;1460465 wrote: I have always had a grudging respect for the swift justice, eye for an eye, boldness and couragious Israel, surrounded by it's sworn enemies.

But unless their Public Relations are slacking, and the figures of the death toll and the TV coverage is wrong, it is not the way we are all lead to believe it is.


Well, Israel warned the Palestinians to evacuate. Evacuate WHERE? There's no place to evacuate. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.

tude dog;1460464 wrote: I would like to believe that the "Hamas leaders" really give a rats butt.
Probably give more of a rats butt than those leaders signing cheques (English for checks) for the supply of more armaments

I dunno about "raze the place".
Obviously haven't seen the newsreels



"a Palestinian stand point"

What is that??? Who speaks for these "Palestinians?"
You can't hear them over the screams and shelling ?



Iran is the arms supplier to groups like Hamas and Hezbolla.

They have nothing to say I care to hear.


Keep upping your taxes to pay for their slaughter and stop whinging about it then.

AnneBoleyn;1460468 wrote: Well, Israel warned the Palestinians to evacuate. Evacuate WHERE? There's no place to evacuate. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.


Plus the attitude that 'Fish' are dispensable

AnneBoleyn;1460468 wrote: Well, Israel warned the Palestinians to evacuate. Evacuate WHERE? There's no place to evacuate. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.


Gaza is small, but it's not like Israel is dropping a nuke on them.

Pay attention. Israel has been very specific, careful on her goals.

Bruv;1460469 wrote: Probably give more of a rats butt than those leaders signing cheques (English for checks) for the supply of more armaments


If I were rich enough to make a significant difference, the "cheque" would be on its way.

Bruv;1460469 wrote: Obviously haven't seen the newsreels

You can't hear them over the screams and shelling ?


I have heard of the since 1948. Jews also cry out.

Bruv;1460469 wrote: Keep upping your taxes to pay for their slaughter and stop whinging about it then.


If it was slaughter, I would complain.

I have been paying attention.

AnneBoleyn;1460481 wrote: I have been paying attention.


I wish Tude had.......but then again......no idea what News source he is drip fed.

(Sorry for using your reply to communicate my displeasure.....nay ...contempt for Tudes short.....nay.....closed mind)

Bruv, this is very difficult for Jews who support the concept of Israel. Everyone should, IMO be open-minded and consider all views, despite the conclusion they eventually arrive at. We are all human beings after all. What is happening now is extremely painful for me. I do pay attention, & sometimes it hurts.

tude dog;1460472 wrote: Gaza is small, but it's not like Israel is dropping a nuke on them.

Pay attention. Israel has been very specific, careful on her goals.


Like the hospital, today?

Bruv;1460489 wrote: I wish Tude had.......but then again......no idea what News source he is drip fed.

(Sorry for using your reply to communicate my displeasure.....nay ...contempt for Tudes short.....nay.....closed mind)


I tried my best.

All things considered, I'll walk away satisfied knowing I merely earned your contempt.

LarsMac;1460501 wrote: Like the hospital, today?


Like places Hamas choose to hide.

tude dog;1460503 wrote: Like places Hamas choose to hide.


Bingo!!

There is the problem. Hamas puts their rocket launchers in among the residential areas, and on top of places like hospitals knowing full well that the "enemy" will target the origins of the missiles.

Of course the Israelis know this.

So, the sad reality is that the Palestine children are simply expendable to both sides.

The sterility of Military vs Military is a non event.

Wars should be horrific, so as to deter countries from getting involved in them.

The problems really arise when neither side gives a toss about who suffers - be it their own side or the enemy.

How can you threaten an enemy who welcomes death, both for himself & all his compatriots?

Both sides seem content to complain about how hard done by they are, yet neither side wants to stop the offensive, knowing the acts will simply trigger tit for tat retaliation.

AnneBoleyn;1460468 wrote: Well, Israel warned the Palestinians to evacuate. Evacuate WHERE? There's no place to evacuate.


The MOST IMPORTANT fact of the situation.

tude dog;1460472 wrote: Israel has been very specific, careful on her goals.


A paraphrase from FuxNews?

LarsMac;1460501 wrote: Like the hospital, today?


I think what Tude means is that Israel (more than likely) were "very specifically" aiming at the out-patient corridor leading towards the exit.

tude dog;1460503 wrote: Like places Hamas choose to hide.


I suppose then that you'd have had no objection to bombing the cinema where Lee Harvey Oswald was alleged to have taken refuge?

tude dog;1460472 wrote: Pay attention. Israel has been very specific, careful on her goals.


LarsMac;1460501 wrote: Like the hospital, today?


tude dog;1460503 wrote: Like places Hamas choose to hide.


Based upon your various comments to this thread Tude, I am of the clear assumption that the only way you see the Palestinians worthy of defensive existence is if they pit their rag-tag, diasporic population toe-to-toe against the rocket, missile, helicopter, tank, star-war capable, fighter jet wielding force of the Israeli military.

Personally (from a military stand-point), I think the only way Israel would be worthy of keeping the “new territories would be if they came out into the streets armed with only a handful of rocks, equal to those carried by the Palestinians - Last man standing decides which territory is his.

This claim by Bibi and his cronies that Hamas is using civilians in Gaza as "human shields," is a pretty naked attempt to justify all civilian casualties (regardless of totals) as collateral damage. The Israeli journalist and peace activist - Uri Avnery, presents this interesting little lesson from switching the names and pretending the victorious Nazis wrote this about the London Blitz:

Winston Churchill was a scoundrel.

For five years he kept the population of London under the unceasing fire of the German Luftwaffe. He used the inhabitants of London as a human shield in his crazy war. While the civilian population was exposed to the bombs and rockets, without the protection of an “iron dome, he was hiding in his bunker under 10 Downing Street.

He exploited all the inhabitants of London as hostages. When the German leaders made a generous peace proposal, he rejected it for crazy ideological reasons. Thus he condemned his people to unimaginable suffering.

From time to time he emerged from his underground hideout to have his picture taken in front of the ruins, and then he returned to the safety of his rat hole. But to the people of London he said: “Future generations will say that this was your finest hour!

The German Luftwaffe had no alternative but to go on bombing the city. Its commanders announced that they were hitting only military targets, such as the homes of British soldiers, where military consultations were taking place.

The German Luftwaffe called on the inhabitants of London to leave the city, and many children were indeed evacuated. But most Londoners heeded the call of Churchill to remain, thus condemning themselves to the fate of “collateral damage.

The hopes of the German high command that the destruction of their homes and the killing of their families would induce the people of London to rise up, kick out Churchill and his war-mongering gang, came to naught.

The primitive Londoners, whose hatred of the Germans overcame their logic, perversely followed the coward Churchill’s instructions. Their admiration for him grew from day to day, and by the end of the war he had become almost a god.

A statue of him stands even today in front of the Parliament in Westminster.
Netanyahu’s Operation Stupidity » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

AnneBoleyn;1460491 wrote: Bruv, this is very difficult for Jews who support the concept of Israel. Everyone should, IMO be open-minded and consider all views, despite the conclusion they eventually arrive at. We are all human beings after all. What is happening now is extremely painful for me. I do pay attention, & sometimes it hurts.


Whatever I say it is not anti Jewish or pro Muslim, knowing the way you think and feel I can realise the heart ache these sort of events must cause you.

The feeling must be akin to having to seperate your own two children, both intent on hurting the other one, blood, snot,sweat,tears, and gouging fingers........without taking sides.

recovering conservative;1460514 wrote: This claim by Bibi and his cronies that Hamas is using civilians in Gaza as "human shields," is a pretty naked attempt to justify all civilian casualties (regardless of totals) as collateral damage.
When they use Civilian premises, such as hospitals & schools which, by their very nature, would be considered vulnerable at the best of times, how else can you describe it.

In any war situation, the target HAS to be the origin of the fire power, regardless of collateral damage. The fact that the Palestinians deliberately site these bases in such locations seems to be a clearly a cold & calculated way the gain the moral high ground in their propaganda.

As far as I see it it's a case of 6 of one & half a dozen of the other. Both sides are to blame. Neither side is interested in settling their differences by negotiation. It is & always has been a generational thing. The children are tomorrow's terrorists. The old & infirm are yesterday's terrorists.

Let them fight it out among themselves. They aren't worthy of anyone's concern. Both sides should be treated with the contempt they deserve.

FourPart;1460505 wrote: The sterility of Military vs Military is a non event.

Wars should be horrific, so as to deter countries from getting involved in them.


A "War to End all Wars?"

FourPart;1460505 wrote: The problems really arise when neither side gives a toss about who suffers - be it their own side or the enemy.


I would say it only take one side to create all the havoc


FourPart;1460505 wrote: How can you threaten an enemy who welcomes death, both for himself & all his compatriots?

Both sides seem content to complain about how hard done by they are, yet neither side wants to stop the offensive, knowing the acts will simply trigger tit for tat retaliation.


Hamas has yet to accept any attempts by Israel and neutral parties to stop the fighting.

High Threshold;1460511 wrote: Based upon your various comments to this thread Tude, I am of the clear assumption that the only way you see the Palestinians worthy of defensive existence is if they pit their rag-tag, diasporic population toe-to-toe against the rocket, missile, helicopter, tank, star-war capable, fighter jet wielding force of the Israeli military.


Assume what you want.

High Threshold;1460511 wrote: Personally (from a military stand-point), I think the only way Israel would be worthy of keeping the “new territories would be if they came out into the streets armed with only a handful of rocks, equal to those carried by the Palestinians - Last man standing decides which territory is his.


It is not clear what "new territories" you speak of.

Gaza is surrounded by sea on one side, Egypt one end and Israel on the other two sides.

The latest operation is supposedly to halt the use and to destroy the tunnels used to bring in rockets etc. that are used against Israel.

Gaza is virtually under siege, these tunnels I understand are used to bring in much needed supplies and arms.

As the tunnels must be at the perimeter, destroying them shouldn't need deep penetration into residential areas.

Comparative size of Gaza

Israel being 'careful on her goals'

tude dog;1460521 wrote: Assume what you want.


I have already stated that as fact.



tude dog;1460521 wrote: It is not clear what "new territories" you speak of.


I suggest you study the history of Israel since 1947. You could begin with the first books of Mosses but I don't want you to tax your mind. So, even if you read slowly it ought not take you more than a few hours. I could tell you myself (by excerpts) but I don't believe you'd be satisfied.

tude dog;1460520 wrote: A "War to End all Wars?"


Oh, you don't need to worry yourself with those silly, Judaic catch-phrases. Book of books. Song of songs. War of wars. Childish diversions is all they are.

LarsMac;1460504 wrote: Bingo!!

There is the problem. Hamas puts their rocket launchers in among the residential areas, and on top of places like hospitals knowing full well that the "enemy" will target the origins of the missiles.

Of course the Israelis know this.

So, the sad reality is that the Palestine children are simply expendable to both sides.


Exactly.

High Threshold;1460530 wrote: Oh, you don't need to worry yourself with those silly, Judaic catch-phrases. Book of books. Song of songs. War of wars. Childish diversions is all they are.


The war to end war

"The war to end war" (sometimes called "The war to end all wars")[1] was a term for World War I. Originally idealistic, it is now used mainly in a disparaging way.[2]




The war to end all wars

World War I was a war without parallel - all previous wars were eclipsed by its scale of destruction.

..... and ..... ?

High Threshold;1460529 wrote: I have already stated that as fact.


Post #115 I am of the clear assumption that




Assume what you want.



High Threshold;1460529 wrote: I suggest you study the history of Israel since 1947. You could begin with the first books of Mosses but I don't want you to tax your mind. So, even if you read slowly it ought not take you more than a few hours. I could tell you myself (by excerpts) but I don't believe you'd be satisfied.


Suggest what you want.

What do you think about the price of tea in China?

FourPart;1460518 wrote: When they use Civilian premises, such as hospitals & schools which, by their very nature, would be considered vulnerable at the best of times, how else can you describe it.

In any war situation, the target HAS to be the origin of the fire power, regardless of collateral damage. The fact that the Palestinians deliberately site these bases in such locations seems to be a clearly a cold & calculated way the gain the moral high ground in their propaganda.


And how do we know the underlined is based on fact, rather than hearsay? I've heard this story too...many times over recent years...at least since the Israelis started the policy of invading Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza - that they use schools and hospitals to hide weapons, and to launch missiles. The only thing missing so far in this invasion is the claim that the Palestinians use ambulances with patients to move weapons and munitions about...give it time!

I'll say up front that I now believe that an oppressed community has the right to use anything and everything when warfare is asymmetrical...and you can't get more asymmetrical than modern day Sparta (Israel) vs. Palestine! But, fwiw, I'd still like to know if the claim is true, since I've heard it many times....even from prominent American newsreaders, and never got around to fact-checking the claims.

A quick Google search of the terms "Hamas" "hiding missiles" "hospitals" pulls up. I go first to a link to The Guardian...but it has nothing to do with the subject; a short blurb from USA Today is irrelevant...but, what else is new?; then, there's the idiot bloggers, like that hag - Pamela Geller, who somehow earns a substantial living blogging about "ground zero mosques" and assorted Muslim hysteria; so, I have to go to Breitbart...which I already know is well-compensated propaganda/not real news, but I'll check it out anyway:

Breitbart features this low-key headline: Hamas Caught Funnelling Rockets into Mosques, Deceptive Tactics Exposed

Okay, ghost of the fat cokehead, what have you got?

opening paragraph:

In paragraph 36, Washington Post reporters on site in Gaza wrote:

During the lull (5-hour humanitarian truce violated by Hamas), a group of men at a mosque in northern Gaza said they had returned to clean up the green glass from windows shattered in the previous day’s bombardment. But they could be seen moving small rockets into the mosque.

Sounds like the WP embedded journalists have actually found a news story...except that the paragraph quoted doesn't show up in a search of the linked source! Moving along:

Hamas has a long track record of using holy sites, as well as schools and hospitals, for storage of its weapons.

there are two embedded links - one that UNRWA is investigating claims that IDF-retrieved missiles were found under a VACANT school from Lebanese internet newspaper - The Daily Star, and yet another "intercepted secret communication" by MEMRI, this time claiming to possess a strategic planning directive from the "Hamas Interior Ministry"...if there is such a dept....on how to wage a propaganda war on social media.

This line, located just above a cartoon image of a hijabbed schoolteacher with children standing outside a school building featuring an underground cache of missiles lying just below the surface, with the caption:"Israel Under Fire"...unattributed...no info on the source or what it's relevance is other than for propaganda purposes.

Further from their MEMRI source:

Anyone killed or martyred is to be called a civilian from Gaza or Palestine, before we talk about his status in jihad or his military rank. Don't forget to always add "innocent civilian" or "innocent citizen" in your description of those killed in Israeli attacks on Gaza.

Begin [your reports of] news of resistance actions with the phrase "In response to the cruel Israeli attack," and conclude with the phrase "This many people have been martyred since Israel launched its aggression against Gaza." Be sure to always perpetuate the principle of "the role of the occupation is attack, and we in Palestine are fulfilling the reaction."

Avoid entering into a political argument with a Westerner aimed at convincing him that the Holocaust is a lie and deceit; instead, equate it with Israel's crimes against Palestinian civilians.



....

Wonderful! Now did MEMRI actually intercept this top secret enemy communication? Or are they just making up crap like they did in past invasions and the Iraq War?

The only other "news link" on that first page was from Israel National News...the Israeli news agency that is so extremely right wing, they even had their broadcast licenses pulled some years back, and had to live on in the virtual world. Anyway, their story is about an IDF official claiming Hamas is embedding their soldiers in schools and hospitals....that might count as evidence, if I was willing to take the word of IDF officials!

I'm back to my starting point, that the side with overwhelming superiority for the use of force does not get to set the rules of armed engagement...which is mostly what this "War On Terror" is really all about. Even at that, the horrible stories of the enemy line up in similar ways with other war theaters, and are mostly unsubstantiated propaganda....but, there's almost no price to pay for fomenting deliberate propaganda! Even the WMD fiasco that served as primary reason for the Iraq Invasion is mostly forgotten now, and the lessons that should have been learned: don't trust generals, don't trust politicians with close relationships with military contractors etc. have been completely lost!

As far as I see it it's a case of 6 of one & half a dozen of the other. Both sides are to blame. Neither side is interested in settling their differences by negotiation. It is & always has been a generational thing. The children are tomorrow's terrorists. The old & infirm are yesterday's terrorists.
That would only be true if both sides were equal...or relatively equal in their potential to use force, and we in the West had no connection with the issue. But, both points are wrong here.

As I mentioned in a previous post, whether it's intentional or accidental, modern day Israel has become the weapons and counter-insurgency strategy lab for all of the world's fascist governments to learn from! That's the main reason why criticism of Israel is non-existent in the U.S. and extremely muted in the rest of the world. Nations that want guns-that-shoot-around-corners, sonic blast weapons, the latest tiny surveillance drones and weaponized drones, cannot afford to hit Israel with sanctions or allow movements like BDS to become popular movements.

As a previous source noted: the adoption of Israeli counter-insurgency weapons and techniques have the potential to make every fascist neoliberal state an Israel, and make any internal dissidents the new Palestinians!

This should be a message that can sink in to the average American libertarian idiot tea partier, who puts on a tri-corner hat and flies the Gadsen Flag, and talks about "the blood of patriots" and the like. The truth is that modern day homeland security rules and law enforcement are making peaceful dissent impossible (OWS), and when high tech counter-insurgency is added in, it makes revolution almost impossible also! In an age when a dissident leader can be surveilled by a drone the size of a hummingbird, and dispatched with a missile-carrying drone, there will be no future George Washington's, Patrick Henry's, or Thomas Paine's.

That's why the only good news I'm seeing in this latest Palestinian invasion is that the IDF is taking significant casualties now. The most dangerous aspect of modern warfare is likely that high tech drone warfare (which will soon be applied to ground weapons) will make invasion painless for the aggressor. If an attacker can invade and destroy without taking a single casualty, then no one is safe! War should carry a high cost for both sides, and the reason why America is jumping in to one proxy war after another (under a Nobel Peace Prize recipient no less), and Israel launches missile attacks on Palestinian territories on an almost constant basis (which never makes the news here), is because they can get away with it so easily...at least so far!

recovering conservative;1460545 wrote: That would only be true if both sides were equal...or relatively equal in their potential to use force, and we in the West had no connection with the issue. But, both points are wrong here.


That's what I'm saying. It's nothing to do with us. If they want to keep their Biblical wars going, so be it. Leave them to it.

"Palestine.....again and again and again."



..... again and again and again .....

Wandrin;1460035 wrote: Were Jews and Palestinians (relatively) peacefully co-existing in the land during the 50 years or so before the mass immigration began in 1948?


FourPart;1460039 wrote: Oh, what a tangled web they weave....

What happened in Palestine during World War II?


leading up to, and during WWII not much was really going on. Arabs and Jews and Druse and Christians all lived there and got along, for the most part, because life was about feeding your family and staying out of the way of the British occupation forces.

When the decision was made to form the "Jewish State" in Palestine, the Arab nations objected, mightily.

When the Jewish immigration began, Arab leaders declared that any Muslims who cooperated with the Jews would be declare infidels and collaborators with the Jews.

Many Muslims began leaving, and moving to the arab zones, or trying to emigrate to Egypt or Jordan or other Arab nations. They were blocked from doing so, and most remained in the Arab regions of Palestine (Gaza, Golan, The West Bank) With the idea that as soon as the Brits left the Arab States would come in and wipe the Jews from the land and they could all go home.

see the partition map of 1947: United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Obviously, that plan failed, as did the 1967 war.

Israel took more land after those two wars. They were forced by the UN to back off on some of the regions. The Palestine Arabs were never allowed to emigrate to other nations, and of course Israel was reticent to allow them to come home unless they were going to promise to behave.

They ended up being stuck between Israel and their "Arab Brothers" in these "No-Man's Land" regions, like Gaza.

This, of course, is a bit of a simplification of the situation.

If you want to get more into it, here is a decent book on the subject:

The Politics of Palestinian Nationalism - William B. Quandt, Paul Jabber, Ann Mosely Lesch - Google Books

My grandkids got me to go with them and take part in this today.

Activists At State Capitol Demand Israel Get Out Of Gaza « CBS Denver

Had a very interesting conversation with some Palestinians who now live is Denver, and some Israeli students from Denver University.

Problem is ..............if Netanyhu and the Knesset is not taking any notice of the events in Palestine, they wont worry too much about down town Denver.

Perhaps we all ought to get out on the street all around the world.......might do something.

Bruv;1461253 wrote: Problem is ..............if Netanyhu and the Knesset is not taking any notice of the events in Palestine, they wont worry too much about down town Denver.


True enough.

Bruv;1461253 wrote: Perhaps we all ought to get out on the street all around the world.......might do something.


It will take the governments of all those people saying "Enough!" to get the Knesset's attention.

Until the people of the world stand up and tell their governments "Enough!" That is not going to happen.

Let's give them both a single Nuclear Missile & get it over & done with once & for all.

FourPart;1461309 wrote: Let's give them both a single Nuclear Missile & get it over & done with once & for all.


I think the Argies have a few Exocet missiles left over from the Falklands ........

Obama's 'helplessness' an act: Snowden reveals scale of US aid to Israel

The turmoil gripping the Middle East is a direct result of the provision of cash, weapons and surveillance to Israel by the US, the latest Snowden leak illustrates. Obama’s “helpless detachment is just for show, the Intercept’s Glenn Greenwald writes......................................

Greenwald has published his analysis of the latest leaked Edward Snowden document of April 12, 2013, wherein it’s explained just how false the notion that the US is a bystander to the Middle Eastern crisis really is.

In fact, "the single largest exchange between NSA and ISNU is on targets in the Middle East which constitute strategic threats to US and Israeli interests," the leaked paper reveals.

"The mutually agreed upon geographic targets include the countries of North Africa, the Middle East, the Persian Gulf, South Asia, and the Islamic republics of the former Soviet Union. Within that set of countries, cooperation covers the exploitation of internal governmental, military, civil and diplomatic communications; and external security/intelligence organizations."

One of the "key priorities" of this cooperation is "the Iranian nuclear development program, followed by Syrian nuclear efforts, Lebanese Hizbullah plans and intentions, Palestinian terrorism, and Global Jihad." The paper talks about "targeting and exploiting" these.

It goes on to show that both intelligence services have liaison officers in each other's embassies, enjoy a "cryptanalytic" partnership, and that Israel has direct access to the highest American military technology. Greenwald supplements this with proof of millions in emergency US funds stockpiled in the Middle East, which Israel can use for its own strategic purposes by simply writing a request.

Over the last decade, Greenwald writes, the NSA has upped the ante greatly on surveillance technology, funding of operations and weapons to its Israeli counterpart, the SIGINT National Unit. A bulk of this assistance has been used to fight its battles with occupied Palestine – including the Gaza operation, as well as other regional players.

“The new Snowden documents illustrate a crucial fact: Israeli aggression would be impossible without the constant, lavish support and protection of the US government, which is anything but a neutral, peace-brokering party in these attacks. And the relationship between the NSA and its partners on the one hand, and the Israeli spying agency on the other, is at the center of that enabling, Greenwald writes.

Numerous evidence of this includes the Guardian’s September 2013 disclosure of American “routine sharing of raw intelligence with Israel without bothering to remove data on US citizens. But the new Snowden leak, published this Monday by the Intercept, details also how the “NSA maintains a far-reaching technical and analytical relationship with Israeli intelligence, involving all types of data from communications intercepts to targets, language and analysis.

Israeli defense intelligence and Mossad are exposed as key partners in this relationship, under which access to “geographic targets include the countries of North Africa, the Middle East, the Persian Gulf, South Asia, and the Islamic republics of the former Soviet Union is freely provided by the US.

Further to that, Israel’s intelligence has access to advanced American military technology and equipment for use against what Israel candidly calls “Palestinian terrorism.

And this cooperation dates back to the late 1960s, while expanded greatly in 2003.

It is therefore unclear to Greenwald how the NSA then lists Israel among the number of threats to Middle Eastern regional security. The public statements made by American and British officials are in stark contrast to what the latest Snowden leak reveals.