The very one sided conflict continues unabated.
Why oh why does the world stand by with such obvious crimes inflicted on an hourly basis?
The reasons are obvious......of course.
What changes would be needed to right the wrongs ?
International Criminal Court.......could they gain anything?
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Bruv;1459952 wrote: The very one sided conflict continues unabated.
Why oh why does the world stand by with such obvious crimes inflicted on an hourly basis?
The reasons are obvious......of course.
What changes would be needed to right the wrongs ?
International Criminal Court.......could they gain anything?
It's a conflict that's been going on since Biblical times, when Moses supposedly parted the seas, etc., and it's not going to be one that's likely to end in our lifetime.
While it isn't questioned that Palestine may have 'cast the first stone', so to speak, with their rocket attacks, the balance of power is akin to the Zulus attacking the Empirical forces with spears in the face of Howitzers.
Rightly or wrongly, regardless of the obvious outcome, can anyone be expected to stand by & allow themselves to be showered with rockets without retaliating?
It's a waste of time trying to intervene to broker a peace between them. History has shown us this with them time & time again. Agreements are reached, truces agreed, attacks continue & escalate, and the whole business starts all over again.
The best thing is to leave them to it to fight it out among themselves. Once they kill each other off, perhaps then there'll finally be peace with no winners & no losers.
Can you just imagine those two with Nuclear Weapons?
Why oh why does the world stand by with such obvious crimes inflicted on an hourly basis?
The reasons are obvious......of course.
What changes would be needed to right the wrongs ?
International Criminal Court.......could they gain anything?
It's a conflict that's been going on since Biblical times, when Moses supposedly parted the seas, etc., and it's not going to be one that's likely to end in our lifetime.
While it isn't questioned that Palestine may have 'cast the first stone', so to speak, with their rocket attacks, the balance of power is akin to the Zulus attacking the Empirical forces with spears in the face of Howitzers.
Rightly or wrongly, regardless of the obvious outcome, can anyone be expected to stand by & allow themselves to be showered with rockets without retaliating?
It's a waste of time trying to intervene to broker a peace between them. History has shown us this with them time & time again. Agreements are reached, truces agreed, attacks continue & escalate, and the whole business starts all over again.
The best thing is to leave them to it to fight it out among themselves. Once they kill each other off, perhaps then there'll finally be peace with no winners & no losers.
Can you just imagine those two with Nuclear Weapons?
Palestine.....again and again and again.
FourPart;1459974 wrote: It's a conflict that's been going on since Biblical times, when Moses supposedly parted the seas, etc., and it's not going to be one that's likely to end in our lifetime.
There may have been conflict but not on the scale we are seeing today, the State of Israel was formed in the late forties, that was when the whole thing escalated.
The best thing is to leave them to it to fight it out among themselves. Once they kill each other off, perhaps then there'll finally be peace with no winners & no losers.
Can you just imagine those two with Nuclear Weapons?
Israel has nuclear weapons I believe, carried on missiles supplied by the US, or financed by them at least.
If only they were allowed to use their own resources against each other, it might be more equal.
Every time I say it, I find it incredible, but for many years US aid to Israel has been larger than ALL the aid combined given everywhere else, and US aid is massive.
Israel's actions are worth a closer look by the International Criminal Court
There may have been conflict but not on the scale we are seeing today, the State of Israel was formed in the late forties, that was when the whole thing escalated.
The best thing is to leave them to it to fight it out among themselves. Once they kill each other off, perhaps then there'll finally be peace with no winners & no losers.
Can you just imagine those two with Nuclear Weapons?
Israel has nuclear weapons I believe, carried on missiles supplied by the US, or financed by them at least.
If only they were allowed to use their own resources against each other, it might be more equal.
Every time I say it, I find it incredible, but for many years US aid to Israel has been larger than ALL the aid combined given everywhere else, and US aid is massive.
Israel's actions are worth a closer look by the International Criminal Court
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Does anyone seriously think the International Criminal Court
States Parties
GREEN Parties
YELLOW Signed but not ratified
RED Neither signed nor acceded
a fair judge of anything regarding this conflict?
Forget thousands of years. Think of another "International Body", the United Nations.
One thing which has always amused me is how in 1967 suddenly thousands of Arab Jordaniansbecame a brand new people, hither now to be know as Palestinians.
States Parties
GREEN Parties
YELLOW Signed but not ratified
RED Neither signed nor acceded
a fair judge of anything regarding this conflict?
Forget thousands of years. Think of another "International Body", the United Nations.
One thing which has always amused me is how in 1967 suddenly thousands of Arab Jordaniansbecame a brand new people, hither now to be know as Palestinians.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Bruv: "Israel has nuclear weapons I believe, carried on missiles supplied by the US, or financed by them at least."
No. Think Einstein. Think Oppenheimer. That's how Israel got the bombs way back when. They made it themselves.
No. Think Einstein. Think Oppenheimer. That's how Israel got the bombs way back when. They made it themselves.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
tude dog;1460013 wrote:
One thing which has always amused me is how in 1967 suddenly thousands of Arab Jordaniansbecame a brand new people, hither now to be know as Palestinians.
It was more like after WWI:
After World War I, Palestine was assigned to the United Kingdom as a mandated territory by the newly-formed League of Nations. The Palestinian Mandate initially included the lands that are now Israel and Jordan, but all lands east of the Jordan River were later placed into a separate mandate known as Transjordan (now the nation of Jordan). The document creating the Palestinian mandate incorporated the terms of the Balfour Declaration, promising the creation of a national Jewish homeland within the mandated territory. Many Arab leaders were initially willing to give Palestine to the Jews if the rest of the Arab lands in the Middle East were under Arab control. However, the Arabs living in Palestine vigorously opposed Jewish immigration into the territory and the idea of a Jewish homeland. It is around this time that the idea of Palestinian nationality (distinct from Arab nationality generally) first begins to appear. There were many riots in the territory, and the British came to believe that the conflicting claims were irreconcilable. In 1937, the British recommended partition of the territory.
Source: Judaism 101: The Land of Israel
One thing which has always amused me is how in 1967 suddenly thousands of Arab Jordaniansbecame a brand new people, hither now to be know as Palestinians.
It was more like after WWI:
After World War I, Palestine was assigned to the United Kingdom as a mandated territory by the newly-formed League of Nations. The Palestinian Mandate initially included the lands that are now Israel and Jordan, but all lands east of the Jordan River were later placed into a separate mandate known as Transjordan (now the nation of Jordan). The document creating the Palestinian mandate incorporated the terms of the Balfour Declaration, promising the creation of a national Jewish homeland within the mandated territory. Many Arab leaders were initially willing to give Palestine to the Jews if the rest of the Arab lands in the Middle East were under Arab control. However, the Arabs living in Palestine vigorously opposed Jewish immigration into the territory and the idea of a Jewish homeland. It is around this time that the idea of Palestinian nationality (distinct from Arab nationality generally) first begins to appear. There were many riots in the territory, and the British came to believe that the conflicting claims were irreconcilable. In 1937, the British recommended partition of the territory.
Source: Judaism 101: The Land of Israel
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Palestine.....again and again and again.
tude dog;1460013 wrote:
Think of another "International Body", the United Nations.
One thing which has always amused me is how in 1967 suddenly thousands of Arab Jordanians became a brand new people, hither now to be know as Palestinians.
I am thinking the United Nations is suspect, being dominated by security council members and their supporting countries.
But as long as questions are asked, it doesn't matter what body gets involved.
There was a time when different European migrants became Americans over night
Think of another "International Body", the United Nations.
One thing which has always amused me is how in 1967 suddenly thousands of Arab Jordanians became a brand new people, hither now to be know as Palestinians.
I am thinking the United Nations is suspect, being dominated by security council members and their supporting countries.
But as long as questions are asked, it doesn't matter what body gets involved.
There was a time when different European migrants became Americans over night
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Palestine.....again and again and again.
AnneBoleyn;1460014 wrote: Bruv: "Israel has nuclear weapons I believe, carried on missiles supplied by the US, or financed by them at least."
No. Think Einstein. Think Oppenheimer. That's how Israel got the bombs way back when. They made it themselves.
The continuing conflicts have had US political and financial backing, at the same time the US issues threats and sanctions against any nation seeking to go nuclear.
No. Think Einstein. Think Oppenheimer. That's how Israel got the bombs way back when. They made it themselves.
The continuing conflicts have had US political and financial backing, at the same time the US issues threats and sanctions against any nation seeking to go nuclear.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Bruv;1460020 wrote: The continuing conflicts have had US political and financial backing, at the same time the US issues threats and sanctions against any nation seeking to go nuclear.
And you point is..............? Israel has been nuclear since it's inception. You think we need MORE countries who are nuclear? North Korea, you like that? I want Less Nuclear, not more. Einstein & Oppenheimer shared the know-how Immediately with Israel, make no mistake about that.
And you point is..............? Israel has been nuclear since it's inception. You think we need MORE countries who are nuclear? North Korea, you like that? I want Less Nuclear, not more. Einstein & Oppenheimer shared the know-how Immediately with Israel, make no mistake about that.
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Palestine.....again and again and again.
TD: "One thing which has always amused me is how in 1967 suddenly thousands of Arab Jordanians became a brand new people, hither now to be know as Palestinians."
Absolutely. That's the mistake Israel made--not dispersing them into Jordan by the end of 1967.
Absolutely. That's the mistake Israel made--not dispersing them into Jordan by the end of 1967.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
AnneBoleyn;1460021 wrote: And you point is..............? Israel has been nuclear since it's inception. You think we need MORE countries who are nuclear? North Korea, you like that? I want Less Nuclear, not more. Einstein & Oppenheimer shared the know-how Immediately with Israel, make no mistake about that.
I don't know. Perhaps EVERY nation should have the bomb. Perhaps one big giant planet-buster at the core of the earth, and every leader has a button that will kick it off.
I suspect folks would be a lot more polite, and a lot more careful what leaders they put into power, then.
I don't know. Perhaps EVERY nation should have the bomb. Perhaps one big giant planet-buster at the core of the earth, and every leader has a button that will kick it off.
I suspect folks would be a lot more polite, and a lot more careful what leaders they put into power, then.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Never thought of you as a nihilist Lars.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
AnneBoleyn;1460021 wrote: And you point is..............? Israel has been nuclear since it's inception. You think we need MORE countries who are nuclear? North Korea, you like that? I want Less Nuclear, not more. Einstein & Oppenheimer shared the know-how Immediately with Israel, make no mistake about that.
My point is probably that US support for Israel makes the continuation of the conflict affordable
There was a time when MAD was the thing that saved mankind, now it depends who's side you are on if you are allowed to go nuclear.
My point is probably that US support for Israel makes the continuation of the conflict affordable
There was a time when MAD was the thing that saved mankind, now it depends who's side you are on if you are allowed to go nuclear.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
AnneBoleyn
- Posts: 6631
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:17 pm
Palestine.....again and again and again.
I agree & now I must cook dinner. Good night Bruv. 
Palestine.....again and again and again.
AnneBoleyn;1460025 wrote: Never thought of you as a nihilist Lars.
Just a passing fancy in a midnight dream.
I have my moments.
Just a passing fancy in a midnight dream.
I have my moments.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
Palestine.....again and again and again.
I have to ask what is the point of the U.N.
When the Americans petitioned to U.N. to sanction the invasion of Iraq, they refused, yet they invaded anyway in the face of the U.N.'s decision.
What is the point of having a U.N. if (a) it doesn't have teeth & (b) if Governments can simply ignore it if they don't like the decisions?
I imagine any International Criminal Court would be exactly the same. Regardless of who the defendants are, their Allies would support them, while their opponents will attack them. It's like having a vote out in the field or in a building. The result will be the same.
When the Americans petitioned to U.N. to sanction the invasion of Iraq, they refused, yet they invaded anyway in the face of the U.N.'s decision.
What is the point of having a U.N. if (a) it doesn't have teeth & (b) if Governments can simply ignore it if they don't like the decisions?
I imagine any International Criminal Court would be exactly the same. Regardless of who the defendants are, their Allies would support them, while their opponents will attack them. It's like having a vote out in the field or in a building. The result will be the same.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
LarsMac;1460015 wrote: It was more like after WWI:
After World War I, Palestine was assigned to the United Kingdom as a mandated territory by the newly-formed League of Nations. The Palestinian Mandate initially included the lands that are now Israel and Jordan, but all lands east of the Jordan River were later placed into a separate mandate known as Transjordan (now the nation of Jordan). The document creating the Palestinian mandate incorporated the terms of the Balfour Declaration, promising the creation of a national Jewish homeland within the mandated territory. Many Arab leaders were initially willing to give Palestine to the Jews if the rest of the Arab lands in the Middle East were under Arab control. However, the Arabs living in Palestine vigorously opposed Jewish immigration into the territory and the idea of a Jewish homeland. It is around this time that the idea of Palestinian nationality (distinct from Arab nationality generally) first begins to appear. There were many riots in the territory, and the British came to believe that the conflicting claims were irreconcilable. In 1937, the British recommended partition of the territory.
Source: Judaism 101: The Land of Israel
Talking about land called Palestine, not a people. As it says, the Arabs living in Palestine
My point being never before 1967 was a separate people known as Palestinian existed.
The concept of a separate Arab Palestinian people was a political creation.
After World War I, Palestine was assigned to the United Kingdom as a mandated territory by the newly-formed League of Nations. The Palestinian Mandate initially included the lands that are now Israel and Jordan, but all lands east of the Jordan River were later placed into a separate mandate known as Transjordan (now the nation of Jordan). The document creating the Palestinian mandate incorporated the terms of the Balfour Declaration, promising the creation of a national Jewish homeland within the mandated territory. Many Arab leaders were initially willing to give Palestine to the Jews if the rest of the Arab lands in the Middle East were under Arab control. However, the Arabs living in Palestine vigorously opposed Jewish immigration into the territory and the idea of a Jewish homeland. It is around this time that the idea of Palestinian nationality (distinct from Arab nationality generally) first begins to appear. There were many riots in the territory, and the British came to believe that the conflicting claims were irreconcilable. In 1937, the British recommended partition of the territory.
Source: Judaism 101: The Land of Israel
Talking about land called Palestine, not a people. As it says, the Arabs living in Palestine
My point being never before 1967 was a separate people known as Palestinian existed.
The concept of a separate Arab Palestinian people was a political creation.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
FourPart;1460030 wrote: I have to ask what is the point of the U.N.
When the Americans petitioned to U.N. to sanction the invasion of Iraq, they refused, yet they invaded anyway in the face of the U.N.'s decision.
What is the point of having a U.N. if (a) it doesn't have teeth & (b) if Governments can simply ignore it if they don't like the decisions?
I imagine any International Criminal Court would be exactly the same. Regardless of who the defendants are, their Allies would support them, while their opponents will attack them. It's like having a vote out in the field or in a building. The result will be the same.
It is an idealistic concept which ignores the fact the concept is null and void at conception.
When the Americans petitioned to U.N. to sanction the invasion of Iraq, they refused, yet they invaded anyway in the face of the U.N.'s decision.
What is the point of having a U.N. if (a) it doesn't have teeth & (b) if Governments can simply ignore it if they don't like the decisions?
I imagine any International Criminal Court would be exactly the same. Regardless of who the defendants are, their Allies would support them, while their opponents will attack them. It's like having a vote out in the field or in a building. The result will be the same.
It is an idealistic concept which ignores the fact the concept is null and void at conception.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Were Jews and Palestinians (relatively) peacefully co-existing in the land during the 50 years or so before the mass immigration began in 1948?
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Wandrin;1460035 wrote: Were Jews and Palestinians (relatively) peacefully co-existing in the land during the 50 years or so before the mass immigration began in 1948?
Oh, what a tangled web they weave....
What happened in Palestine during World War II?
Oh, what a tangled web they weave....
What happened in Palestine during World War II?
Palestine.....again and again and again.
FourPart;1460039 wrote: Oh, what a tangled web they weave....
What happened in Palestine during World War II?
Jews and Arab Palestinians lived and worked the land as neighbors until the 1940s.
One thing that has gotten lost is that the Arab States in 1948 declared that the Palestinians who remained in the Jewish area would be considered infidels. So as the state was turned over to the Israelis, the Palestinians fled to the arab sections. They were convinced that the Arabs would shortly drive the Jews out and they would get their land back. Well the first offensive failed, and every attempt the Arabs made afterwards to oust the Jews failed miserably, and the Palestinians never got to go home.
Sadly, most of the world overlooks the fact that Hamas and other Arab organizations have vowed to destroy Israel, and to them the Palestinian refugees a little more than pawns in that effort. The Palestinians are stuck in the middle, with few friends in the world.
What happened in Palestine during World War II?
Jews and Arab Palestinians lived and worked the land as neighbors until the 1940s.
One thing that has gotten lost is that the Arab States in 1948 declared that the Palestinians who remained in the Jewish area would be considered infidels. So as the state was turned over to the Israelis, the Palestinians fled to the arab sections. They were convinced that the Arabs would shortly drive the Jews out and they would get their land back. Well the first offensive failed, and every attempt the Arabs made afterwards to oust the Jews failed miserably, and the Palestinians never got to go home.
Sadly, most of the world overlooks the fact that Hamas and other Arab organizations have vowed to destroy Israel, and to them the Palestinian refugees a little more than pawns in that effort. The Palestinians are stuck in the middle, with few friends in the world.
The home of the soul is the Open Road.
- DH Lawrence
- DH Lawrence
-
High Threshold
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:20 am
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Bruv;1459952 wrote: The very one sided conflict continues unabated.
Why oh why does the world stand by with such obvious crimes inflicted on an hourly basis?
I know. It's been going on for so long that I've actually had time to change sides - in a purely, strictly concious-supportive sense. BUT I am very curious to know what you mean by "one sided". I'm going to regret that question, I just know it!
Why oh why does the world stand by with such obvious crimes inflicted on an hourly basis?
I know. It's been going on for so long that I've actually had time to change sides - in a purely, strictly concious-supportive sense. BUT I am very curious to know what you mean by "one sided". I'm going to regret that question, I just know it!
-
High Threshold
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:20 am
Palestine.....again and again and again.
FourPart;1459974 wrote: It's a waste of time trying to intervene to broker a peace between them.
OH, MY!!! Please allow me to point out that it is the very fact of continuous and permanent, "outside intervention" that is the cause of the conflict in the first place. It's like sending the Calvary into Wyoming to protect the Indians from a rumoured tsunami.
OH, MY!!! Please allow me to point out that it is the very fact of continuous and permanent, "outside intervention" that is the cause of the conflict in the first place. It's like sending the Calvary into Wyoming to protect the Indians from a rumoured tsunami.
-
recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Palestine.....again and again and again.
AnneBoleyn;1460022 wrote: TD: "One thing which has always amused me is how in 1967 suddenly thousands of Arab Jordanians became a brand new people, hither now to be know as Palestinians."
Absolutely. That's the mistake Israel made--not dispersing them into Jordan by the end of 1967.
Excuse me, but it seems "Israelis" are a brand new people also! In other words, where are the other 11 tribes? Supposedly they were taken off into bondage by the Babylonians and lost forever. Then again, Biblical archeaologists who apply the same rigor to the "Holy Land" as they do to any other archaeological digs, can show us enough holes to drive a Mack truck through them!
A couple of years ago, an Israeli archaeologist - Israel Finkelstein created a firestorm when he published "The Bible Unearthed" which applied the rules of higher criticism, and ruled out the Flight to Egypt and 40 year wandering in the Sinai and the Conquest of Canaan....proposing instead that Israelites had actually been there all along, and developed a separate culture, but were unlikely to have ever been a unified nation, and Judeans had always been a separate group from the other tribes. So, why not call it the State of Judea today? It would make more sense than attaching a name from a set of tribes that never existed...at least not as part of the same patriarchal family.
The whole point of Zionism, starting back in the 1860's, has been a longterm strategy of buying up land from mostly absentee landlords in the old Ottoman Empire, and moving Jews in from Europe, who hadn't been there for at least 1500 years...in order to recreate a religious state that existed mostly as mythology!
So, it's a lost cause for today's defenders of Israel; because the modern state of Israel had built in contradictions right from its founding: how can a nation be both a western-style democracy and a specifically Jewish state that welcomes in anyone and everyone who can prove that they are a Jew through the official policy of Aaliyah? An Israeli arab who leaves Israel can be denied re-entry, while Jews from New York or Australia can move in and take his place! It may be a moot issue anyway, because what I am seeing on the news regarding Israeli reactions over recent years, is that the slow, incremental policy of carving up the West Bank into Jewish enclaves that strangle any actual Palestinian State will be abandoned for an outright ethnic cleansing of Arabs from lands that Israel is claiming to have a right to! And I doubt the U.S., Canada, Europe or any other allies will do a damn thing about it!
Last year, I came across a few articles that provide some of the underlying reasons why Israel is now beyond criticism in mainstream media....hint, it's not just arms sales. The long-running battles with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza over recent decades, has allowed Israel to operationally test new weapons and new tactics and strategies. Nations around the world hire IDF to train their military and police in the latest counter-insurgency tactics:
For example, Israeli riot control technologies sold to Brazilian police for fighting drug dealers cast Rio’s favelas in the shape of Palestinian refugee camps
Profiting from War: A Look Into the World of Israeli Arms Dealing | Global Research
See, it's not just America anymore! Israel has many client states...including some Arab nations that are supposed to be adversaries...or at least neutral parties. But, when increasingly oppressive and despotic governments around the world need help dealing with potential civil unrest at home, they call on the Israelis to teach them how its done from their own first hand experience.
Absolutely. That's the mistake Israel made--not dispersing them into Jordan by the end of 1967.
Excuse me, but it seems "Israelis" are a brand new people also! In other words, where are the other 11 tribes? Supposedly they were taken off into bondage by the Babylonians and lost forever. Then again, Biblical archeaologists who apply the same rigor to the "Holy Land" as they do to any other archaeological digs, can show us enough holes to drive a Mack truck through them!
A couple of years ago, an Israeli archaeologist - Israel Finkelstein created a firestorm when he published "The Bible Unearthed" which applied the rules of higher criticism, and ruled out the Flight to Egypt and 40 year wandering in the Sinai and the Conquest of Canaan....proposing instead that Israelites had actually been there all along, and developed a separate culture, but were unlikely to have ever been a unified nation, and Judeans had always been a separate group from the other tribes. So, why not call it the State of Judea today? It would make more sense than attaching a name from a set of tribes that never existed...at least not as part of the same patriarchal family.
The whole point of Zionism, starting back in the 1860's, has been a longterm strategy of buying up land from mostly absentee landlords in the old Ottoman Empire, and moving Jews in from Europe, who hadn't been there for at least 1500 years...in order to recreate a religious state that existed mostly as mythology!
So, it's a lost cause for today's defenders of Israel; because the modern state of Israel had built in contradictions right from its founding: how can a nation be both a western-style democracy and a specifically Jewish state that welcomes in anyone and everyone who can prove that they are a Jew through the official policy of Aaliyah? An Israeli arab who leaves Israel can be denied re-entry, while Jews from New York or Australia can move in and take his place! It may be a moot issue anyway, because what I am seeing on the news regarding Israeli reactions over recent years, is that the slow, incremental policy of carving up the West Bank into Jewish enclaves that strangle any actual Palestinian State will be abandoned for an outright ethnic cleansing of Arabs from lands that Israel is claiming to have a right to! And I doubt the U.S., Canada, Europe or any other allies will do a damn thing about it!
Last year, I came across a few articles that provide some of the underlying reasons why Israel is now beyond criticism in mainstream media....hint, it's not just arms sales. The long-running battles with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza over recent decades, has allowed Israel to operationally test new weapons and new tactics and strategies. Nations around the world hire IDF to train their military and police in the latest counter-insurgency tactics:
For example, Israeli riot control technologies sold to Brazilian police for fighting drug dealers cast Rio’s favelas in the shape of Palestinian refugee camps
Profiting from War: A Look Into the World of Israeli Arms Dealing | Global Research
See, it's not just America anymore! Israel has many client states...including some Arab nations that are supposed to be adversaries...or at least neutral parties. But, when increasingly oppressive and despotic governments around the world need help dealing with potential civil unrest at home, they call on the Israelis to teach them how its done from their own first hand experience.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
High Threshold;1460050 wrote: I know. It's been going on for so long that I've actually had time to change sides - in a purely, strictly concious-supportive sense. BUT I am very curious to know what you mean by "one sided". I'm going to regret that question, I just know it!
Apart from the history involved, this most recent excuse to bomb was the killing of three Israelis followed by the killing of a Palestinian in revenge.
The unrest has been 'stabilsed' by wholesale bombing of civilian areas resulting in the deaths of a further 150 plus Palestinians.........that sort of 'one side' is what I meant.
Apart from the history involved, this most recent excuse to bomb was the killing of three Israelis followed by the killing of a Palestinian in revenge.
The unrest has been 'stabilsed' by wholesale bombing of civilian areas resulting in the deaths of a further 150 plus Palestinians.........that sort of 'one side' is what I meant.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Wandrin;1460035 wrote: Were Jews and Palestinians (relatively) peacefully co-existing in the land during the 50 years or so before the mass immigration began in 1948?
It could be said the first "mass" immigration of Jews began in 1883 and continued.
There was resentment by the local Arabs which at least by the 1930's led to violence. Just how the average person felt of their situation back then? No doubt books have been written on that very subject.
It could be said the first "mass" immigration of Jews began in 1883 and continued.
There was resentment by the local Arabs which at least by the 1930's led to violence. Just how the average person felt of their situation back then? No doubt books have been written on that very subject.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
recovering conservative;1460057 wrote: Excuse me, but it seems "Israelis" are a brand new people also! In other words, where are the other 11 tribes? Supposedly they were taken off into bondage by the Babylonians and lost forever. Then again, Biblical archeaologists who apply the same rigor to the "Holy Land" as they do to any other archaeological digs, can show us enough holes to drive a Mack truck through them!
Citizens of the State of Israel called Israeli are no more a new people than those of us who are called Americans a new people.
11 lost tribes, hmm.
recovering conservative;1460057 wrote: A couple of years ago, an Israeli archaeologist - Israel Finkelstein created a firestorm when he published "The Bible Unearthed" which applied the rules of higher criticism, and ruled out the Flight to Egypt and 40 year wandering in the Sinai and the Conquest of Canaan....proposing instead that Israelites had actually been there all along, and developed a separate culture, but were unlikely to have ever been a unified nation, and Judeans had always been a separate group from the other tribes. So, why not call it the State of Judea today? It would make more sense than attaching a name from a set of tribes that never existed...at least not as part of the same patriarchal family.
I remember all that. Tempest in a teapot.
recovering conservative;1460057 wrote: The whole point of Zionism, starting back in the 1860's, has been a longterm strategy of buying up land from mostly absentee landlords in the old Ottoman Empire, and moving Jews in from Europe, who hadn't been there for at least 1500 years...in order to recreate a religious state that existed mostly as mythology!
I always like the definition of Zionist as someone who wants to send someone else to Israel.
recovering conservative;1460057 wrote: So, it's a lost cause for today's defenders of Israel; because the modern state of Israel had built in contradictions right from its founding: how can a nation be both a western-style democracy and a specifically Jewish state that welcomes in anyone and everyone who can prove that they are a Jew through the official policy of Aaliyah? An Israeli arab who leaves Israel can be denied re-entry, while Jews from New York or Australia can move in and take his place! It may be a moot issue anyway, because what I am seeing on the news regarding Israeli reactions over recent years, is that the slow, incremental policy of carving up the West Bank into Jewish enclaves that strangle any actual Palestinian State will be abandoned for an outright ethnic cleansing of Arabs from lands that Israel is claiming to have a right to! And I doubt the U.S., Canada, Europe or any other allies will do a damn thing about it!
Show me a state without contradictions.
recovering conservative;1460057 wrote: Last year, I came across a few articles that provide some of the underlying reasons why Israel is now beyond criticism in mainstream media....hint, it's not just arms sales. The long-running battles with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza over recent decades, has allowed Israel to operationally test new weapons and new tactics and strategies. Nations around the world hire IDF to train their military and police in the latest counter-insurgency tactics:
For example, Israeli riot control technologies sold to Brazilian police for fighting drug dealers cast Rio’s favelas in the shape of Palestinian refugee camps
Profiting from War: A Look Into the World of Israeli Arms Dealing | Global Research
It is quite a fantastic claim that Israel is above criticism.
recovering conservative;1460057 wrote: See, it's not just America anymore! Israel has many client states...including some Arab nations that are supposed to be adversaries...or at least neutral parties. But, when increasingly oppressive and despotic governments around the world need help dealing with potential civil unrest at home, they call on the Israelis to teach them how its done from their own first hand experience.
fascinating
Citizens of the State of Israel called Israeli are no more a new people than those of us who are called Americans a new people.
11 lost tribes, hmm.
recovering conservative;1460057 wrote: A couple of years ago, an Israeli archaeologist - Israel Finkelstein created a firestorm when he published "The Bible Unearthed" which applied the rules of higher criticism, and ruled out the Flight to Egypt and 40 year wandering in the Sinai and the Conquest of Canaan....proposing instead that Israelites had actually been there all along, and developed a separate culture, but were unlikely to have ever been a unified nation, and Judeans had always been a separate group from the other tribes. So, why not call it the State of Judea today? It would make more sense than attaching a name from a set of tribes that never existed...at least not as part of the same patriarchal family.
I remember all that. Tempest in a teapot.
recovering conservative;1460057 wrote: The whole point of Zionism, starting back in the 1860's, has been a longterm strategy of buying up land from mostly absentee landlords in the old Ottoman Empire, and moving Jews in from Europe, who hadn't been there for at least 1500 years...in order to recreate a religious state that existed mostly as mythology!
I always like the definition of Zionist as someone who wants to send someone else to Israel.
recovering conservative;1460057 wrote: So, it's a lost cause for today's defenders of Israel; because the modern state of Israel had built in contradictions right from its founding: how can a nation be both a western-style democracy and a specifically Jewish state that welcomes in anyone and everyone who can prove that they are a Jew through the official policy of Aaliyah? An Israeli arab who leaves Israel can be denied re-entry, while Jews from New York or Australia can move in and take his place! It may be a moot issue anyway, because what I am seeing on the news regarding Israeli reactions over recent years, is that the slow, incremental policy of carving up the West Bank into Jewish enclaves that strangle any actual Palestinian State will be abandoned for an outright ethnic cleansing of Arabs from lands that Israel is claiming to have a right to! And I doubt the U.S., Canada, Europe or any other allies will do a damn thing about it!
Show me a state without contradictions.
recovering conservative;1460057 wrote: Last year, I came across a few articles that provide some of the underlying reasons why Israel is now beyond criticism in mainstream media....hint, it's not just arms sales. The long-running battles with Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza over recent decades, has allowed Israel to operationally test new weapons and new tactics and strategies. Nations around the world hire IDF to train their military and police in the latest counter-insurgency tactics:
For example, Israeli riot control technologies sold to Brazilian police for fighting drug dealers cast Rio’s favelas in the shape of Palestinian refugee camps
Profiting from War: A Look Into the World of Israeli Arms Dealing | Global Research
It is quite a fantastic claim that Israel is above criticism.
recovering conservative;1460057 wrote: See, it's not just America anymore! Israel has many client states...including some Arab nations that are supposed to be adversaries...or at least neutral parties. But, when increasingly oppressive and despotic governments around the world need help dealing with potential civil unrest at home, they call on the Israelis to teach them how its done from their own first hand experience.
fascinating
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
How do you manage to say very little, but still manage to stir me up ............
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
High Threshold
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:20 am
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Bruv;1460062 wrote: ... this most recent excuse to bomb was the killing of three Israelis followed by the killing of a Palestinian in revenge.
The unrest has been 'stabilsed' by wholesale bombing of civilian areas resulting in the deaths of a further 150 plus Palestinians.........that sort of 'one side' is what I meant.
Now I am confused but let me see if I can work it out. Let's see, by using only the examples you've given the score is PALESTIANS: 3 - ISRAELIES: 151. Is that what you mean? Yeah, with those parametres as the yard-stick ..... OK, I get it.
The unrest has been 'stabilsed' by wholesale bombing of civilian areas resulting in the deaths of a further 150 plus Palestinians.........that sort of 'one side' is what I meant.
Now I am confused but let me see if I can work it out. Let's see, by using only the examples you've given the score is PALESTIANS: 3 - ISRAELIES: 151. Is that what you mean? Yeah, with those parametres as the yard-stick ..... OK, I get it.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Bruv;1460062 wrote: Apart from the history involved, this most recent excuse to bomb was the killing of three Israelis followed by the killing of a Palestinian in revenge.
The unrest has been 'stabilsed' by wholesale bombing of civilian areas resulting in the deaths of a further 150 plus Palestinians.........that sort of 'one side' is what I meant.
I must admit that while aware of the murdered Jewish teens and revenge murder of a Palestinian teen, did not follow it closely.
I did some checking but failed to find a direct connection to those events and your 150 plus dean Palestinians.
The unrest has been 'stabilsed' by wholesale bombing of civilian areas resulting in the deaths of a further 150 plus Palestinians.........that sort of 'one side' is what I meant.
I must admit that while aware of the murdered Jewish teens and revenge murder of a Palestinian teen, did not follow it closely.
I did some checking but failed to find a direct connection to those events and your 150 plus dean Palestinians.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
-
High Threshold
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:20 am
Palestine.....again and again and again.
tude dog;1460090 wrote: I did some checking but failed to find a direct connection to those events and your 150 plus dean Palestinians.
It doesn't matter. Whereas the Palestinians manage a couple of kills, the Israelis are sending in the rocktes and heliocopters. So whether "the score" is 150 or 75 the results are the same. And as far as direct connection to "tit for tat" events, what does that really matter? Claiming they abducted those 3 Israeli teen-agers "because" yada-yada-yada is pretty much the same as using really foul language and disgusting insuslts on FG and claiming it's justified because some moderator put you in your place for earlier mis-deeds.
It doesn't matter. Whereas the Palestinians manage a couple of kills, the Israelis are sending in the rocktes and heliocopters. So whether "the score" is 150 or 75 the results are the same. And as far as direct connection to "tit for tat" events, what does that really matter? Claiming they abducted those 3 Israeli teen-agers "because" yada-yada-yada is pretty much the same as using really foul language and disgusting insuslts on FG and claiming it's justified because some moderator put you in your place for earlier mis-deeds.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
High Threshold;1460084 wrote: Now I am confused but let me see if I can work it out. Let's see, by using only the examples you've given the score is PALESTIANS: 3 - ISRAELIES: 151. Is that what you mean? Yeah, with those parametres as the yard-stick ..... OK, I get it.
That death score has gone up, but only 'one sided'....... again, due to the....... 'one sided' backing given to the underdog ...... who have state of the art weaponry either in the form of aid or as a means of keeping the lid on the situation.
And then they all wonder why our young men pick up arms in foriegn lands to right wrongs,and why buses, buildings, trains, and aircraft get targetted worldwide.
That death score has gone up, but only 'one sided'....... again, due to the....... 'one sided' backing given to the underdog ...... who have state of the art weaponry either in the form of aid or as a means of keeping the lid on the situation.
And then they all wonder why our young men pick up arms in foriegn lands to right wrongs,and why buses, buildings, trains, and aircraft get targetted worldwide.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Palestine.....again and again and again.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: ......................... is pretty much the same as using really foul language and disgusting insuslts on FG and claiming it's justified because some moderator put you in your place for earlier mis-deeds.
Please lets contain THAT conflict to the one designated thread.
Please lets contain THAT conflict to the one designated thread.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Palestine.....again and again and again.
tude dog;1460090 wrote: I must admit that while aware of the murdered Jewish teens and revenge murder of a Palestinian teen, did not follow it closely.
I did some checking but failed to find a direct connection to those events and your 150 plus dean Palestinians.
And nothing to connect it to 9/11 or any of the other 'terrorist' activities around the world?
I did some checking but failed to find a direct connection to those events and your 150 plus dean Palestinians.
And nothing to connect it to 9/11 or any of the other 'terrorist' activities around the world?
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
-
recovering conservative
- Posts: 529
- Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:28 pm
Palestine.....again and again and again.
tude dog;1460074 wrote: Citizens of the State of Israel called Israeli are no more a new people than those of us who are called Americans a new people.
11 lost tribes, hmm.
It's in the Bible! And unless you believe the Book of Mormon, those lost tribes were never found...or they never existed in the form presented in our sacred texts.
I remember all that. Tempest in a teapot.
As I understand it, Israel Finkelstein still resides in Israel in spite of numerous death threats, and having his university office set on fire a few years ago. His co-author - Neil Asher, says that he will never move to Israel and never feels safe while he is there, except when out on remote archaelogical digs. So it seems to be an important issue to some people. And I suppose it should be; since if you have founded a modern nation-state based on mythology, rather than fact, that threatens the legitimacy of a race-based political government to expel actual natives for newcomers.
I always like the definition of Zionist as someone who wants to send someone else to Israel.
Until the 30's, and the rise of fascism in Europe, there were not great migrations to the Holy Land. The Zionist Project almost failed due to limited interest early on.
Show me a state without contradictions.
And those contradictions have to eventually be dealt with, one way or another! In America, the contradiction between "all men are created equal," and "slavery is a legitimate institution" could not be resolved without civil war. Although the post-slavery era discriminatory hierarchy seems to show that the general approach has been to sweep inequalities under the rug and proclaim meritocracy.
It is quite a fantastic claim that Israel is above criticism.
I never see any mention of Israel's arms export industries and their security and counter-insurgency training businesses mentioned in the Israel/Palestine conflicts.
Then again, I don't see much of any context provided on any issue these days reported in mainstream media!
fascinating
yes, very fascinating! In decades and centuries past, there have been uprisings, civil wars and revolutions (if I recall, there was one in America's history); and today, rather than follow the liberal strategy of relieving pressure that could lead to social unrest, all forms of governments claiming to be democracies are in fact fascist oligarchies who are tipping their hand that they will find new ways and use new technologies to further oppress common people instead. Israel's use of their Palestinian counter-insurgency laboratory, combined with the U.S.'s excuse of using 9-11 to allow mass surveillance, torture, and violation of basic human rights, are tip-offs of how they will act when unrest breaks out in America and Europe.
11 lost tribes, hmm.
It's in the Bible! And unless you believe the Book of Mormon, those lost tribes were never found...or they never existed in the form presented in our sacred texts.
I remember all that. Tempest in a teapot.
As I understand it, Israel Finkelstein still resides in Israel in spite of numerous death threats, and having his university office set on fire a few years ago. His co-author - Neil Asher, says that he will never move to Israel and never feels safe while he is there, except when out on remote archaelogical digs. So it seems to be an important issue to some people. And I suppose it should be; since if you have founded a modern nation-state based on mythology, rather than fact, that threatens the legitimacy of a race-based political government to expel actual natives for newcomers.
I always like the definition of Zionist as someone who wants to send someone else to Israel.
Until the 30's, and the rise of fascism in Europe, there were not great migrations to the Holy Land. The Zionist Project almost failed due to limited interest early on.
Show me a state without contradictions.
And those contradictions have to eventually be dealt with, one way or another! In America, the contradiction between "all men are created equal," and "slavery is a legitimate institution" could not be resolved without civil war. Although the post-slavery era discriminatory hierarchy seems to show that the general approach has been to sweep inequalities under the rug and proclaim meritocracy.
It is quite a fantastic claim that Israel is above criticism.
I never see any mention of Israel's arms export industries and their security and counter-insurgency training businesses mentioned in the Israel/Palestine conflicts.
Then again, I don't see much of any context provided on any issue these days reported in mainstream media!
fascinating
yes, very fascinating! In decades and centuries past, there have been uprisings, civil wars and revolutions (if I recall, there was one in America's history); and today, rather than follow the liberal strategy of relieving pressure that could lead to social unrest, all forms of governments claiming to be democracies are in fact fascist oligarchies who are tipping their hand that they will find new ways and use new technologies to further oppress common people instead. Israel's use of their Palestinian counter-insurgency laboratory, combined with the U.S.'s excuse of using 9-11 to allow mass surveillance, torture, and violation of basic human rights, are tip-offs of how they will act when unrest breaks out in America and Europe.
-
High Threshold
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:20 am
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Bruv;1460093 wrote: That death score has gone up, but only 'one sided'....... again, due to the....... 'one sided' backing given to the underdog ...... who have state of the art weaponry either in the form of aid or as a means of keeping the lid on the situation.
And then they all wonder why our young men pick up arms in foriegn lands to right wrongs,and why buses, buildings, trains, and aircraft get targetted worldwide.
I am with you on this one, although I do not think that I agree about the use of the term "underdog" in this case.
Bruv;1460094 wrote: Please lets contain THAT conflict to the one designated thread.
Not even as an "in house" analogy?
And then they all wonder why our young men pick up arms in foriegn lands to right wrongs,and why buses, buildings, trains, and aircraft get targetted worldwide.
I am with you on this one, although I do not think that I agree about the use of the term "underdog" in this case.
Bruv;1460094 wrote: Please lets contain THAT conflict to the one designated thread.
Not even as an "in house" analogy?
-
High Threshold
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:20 am
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Bruv;1460096 wrote: And nothing to connect it to 9/11 or any of the other 'terrorist' activities around the world?
:wah: :yh_rotfl :wah: :yh_rotfl
:wah: :yh_rotfl :wah: :yh_rotfl
Palestine.....again and again and again.
High Threshold;1460102 wrote: I am with you on this one, although I do not think that I agree about the use of the term "underdog" in this case.
Not even as an "in house" analogy?
Underdog was sarcasm, although....................at one time long long ago, the poor fleeing Jewish hoards escaping persecution may have been due our sympathy and support.
Latest news the figure rises to 211 dead..........including 4 boys playing on the beach.
"In house" analogies are good......on more trivial subjects.......if between people that have contributed to the "in house" item referred to in the analogy.Tude hasn't as far as I remember.
Not even as an "in house" analogy?
Underdog was sarcasm, although....................at one time long long ago, the poor fleeing Jewish hoards escaping persecution may have been due our sympathy and support.
Latest news the figure rises to 211 dead..........including 4 boys playing on the beach.
"In house" analogies are good......on more trivial subjects.......if between people that have contributed to the "in house" item referred to in the analogy.Tude hasn't as far as I remember.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
Palestine.....again and again and again.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: It doesn't matter.
Why? Just because you made it up?
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: Whereas the Palestinians manage a couple of kills, the Israelis are sending in the rocktes and heliocopters. So whether "the score" is 150 or 75 the results are the same.
Score?
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: And as far as direct connection to "tit for tat" events, what does that really matter? Claiming they abducted those 3 Israeli teen-agers "because" yada-yada-yada is pretty much the same as using really foul language and disgusting insuslts on FG and claiming it's justified because some moderator put you in your place for earlier mis-deeds.
That sure made a lot of sense.
NOT !
Why? Just because you made it up?
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: Whereas the Palestinians manage a couple of kills, the Israelis are sending in the rocktes and heliocopters. So whether "the score" is 150 or 75 the results are the same.
Score?
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: And as far as direct connection to "tit for tat" events, what does that really matter? Claiming they abducted those 3 Israeli teen-agers "because" yada-yada-yada is pretty much the same as using really foul language and disgusting insuslts on FG and claiming it's justified because some moderator put you in your place for earlier mis-deeds.
That sure made a lot of sense.
NOT !
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
recovering conservative;1460098 wrote: It's in the Bible! And unless you believe the Book of Mormon, those lost tribes were never found...or they never existed in the form presented in our sacred texts.
I'm no scholar, but do I know the story of the 10 lost tribes. How much if any is true, who knows? I'll let other people dig in the dirt to find clues. For me everything I need to know is in the BOOK.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: As I understand it, Israel Finkelstein still resides in Israel in spite of numerous death threats, and having his university office set on fire a few years ago. His co-author - Neil Asher, says that he will never move to Israel and never feels safe while he is there, except when out on remote archaelogical digs. So it seems to be an important issue to some people.
I must wonder if there is more to this whole story. I did not spend a lot of time reading about what Mr. Finkelstein wrote as to me for the most part was pretty much standard stuff one might say.
Mr. Findelstein may have a problem, so do a lot of people. I wouldn't over blow it.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: And I suppose it should be; since if you have founded a modern nation-state based on mythology, rather than fact, that threatens the legitimacy of a race-based political government to expel actual natives for newcomers.
From what I read I believe the people who threatened Mr. Finkelstein are of the Orthodox, Haredi who would be upset. They are also the people who do not recognize the State of Israel as they are busy waiting for some messiah.
Nobody else cares.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: Until the 30's, and the rise of fascism in Europe, there were not great migrations to the Holy Land.
Making stuff up again.
The signal event of this aliyah wave was the Nazi accession to power in Germany (1933). Persecution and the Jews' worsening situation caused aliyah from Germany to increase, and aliyah from Eastern Europe to resume. Many of the immigrants from Germany were professionals; their impact was to be felt in many fields of endeavor. Within a four-year period (1933-1936), 174,000 Jews settled in the country. The towns flourished as new industrial enterprises were founded and construction of the Haifa port and the oil refineries was completed. Throughout the country, "stockade and tower" settlements were established. During this period �* in 1929 and again in 1936-39 �* violent Arab attacks on the Jewish population took place, called "disturbances" by the British. The British government imposed restrictions on immigration, resulting in Aliyah Bet — clandestine, illegal immigration.
By 1940, nearly 250,000 Jews had arrived during the Fifth Aliyah (20,000 of them left later) and the yishuv's population reached 450,000. From this time on, the practice of "numbering" the waves of immigration was discontinued �* which is not to say that aliyah had exhausted itself.The signal event of this aliyah wave was the Nazi accession to power in Germany (1933). Persecution and the Jews' worsening situation caused aliyah from Germany to increase, and aliyah from Eastern Europe to resume. Many of the immigrants from Germany were professionals; their impact was to be felt in many fields of endeavor. Within a four-year period (1933-1936), 174,000 Jews settled in the country. The towns flourished as new industrial enterprises were founded and construction of the Haifa port and the oil refineries was completed. Throughout the country, "stockade and tower" settlements were established. During this period �* in 1929 and again in 1936-39 �* violent Arab attacks on the Jewish population took place, called "disturbances" by the British. The British government imposed restrictions on immigration, resulting in Aliyah Bet — clandestine, illegal immigration.[url=http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... liyah.html[/url]
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: The Zionist Project almost failed due to limited interest early on.
And those contradictions have to eventually be dealt with, one way or another! In America, the contradiction between "all men are created equal," and "slavery is a legitimate institution" could not be resolved without civil war. Although the post-slavery era discriminatory hierarchy seems to show that the general approach has been to sweep inequalities under the rug and proclaim meritocracy.
You are entitled to that.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: I never see any mention of Israel's arms export industries and their security and counter-insurgency training businesses mentioned in the Israel/Palestine conflicts.
Then again, I don't see much of any context provided on any issue these days reported in mainstream media!
Hmm
See just what you mean, or maybe not.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: yes, very fascinating! In decades and centuries past, there have been uprisings, civil wars and revolutions (if I recall, there was one in America's history); and today, rather than follow the liberal strategy of relieving pressure that could lead to social unrest, all forms of governments claiming to be democracies are in fact fascist oligarchies who are tipping their hand that they will find new ways and use new technologies to further oppress common people instead. Israel's use of their Palestinian counter-insurgency laboratory, combined with the U.S.'s excuse of using 9-11 to allow mass surveillance, torture, and violation of basic human rights, are tip-offs of how they will act when unrest breaks out in America and Europe.
I'm no scholar, but do I know the story of the 10 lost tribes. How much if any is true, who knows? I'll let other people dig in the dirt to find clues. For me everything I need to know is in the BOOK.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: As I understand it, Israel Finkelstein still resides in Israel in spite of numerous death threats, and having his university office set on fire a few years ago. His co-author - Neil Asher, says that he will never move to Israel and never feels safe while he is there, except when out on remote archaelogical digs. So it seems to be an important issue to some people.
I must wonder if there is more to this whole story. I did not spend a lot of time reading about what Mr. Finkelstein wrote as to me for the most part was pretty much standard stuff one might say.
Mr. Findelstein may have a problem, so do a lot of people. I wouldn't over blow it.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: And I suppose it should be; since if you have founded a modern nation-state based on mythology, rather than fact, that threatens the legitimacy of a race-based political government to expel actual natives for newcomers.
From what I read I believe the people who threatened Mr. Finkelstein are of the Orthodox, Haredi who would be upset. They are also the people who do not recognize the State of Israel as they are busy waiting for some messiah.
Nobody else cares.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: Until the 30's, and the rise of fascism in Europe, there were not great migrations to the Holy Land.
Making stuff up again.
The signal event of this aliyah wave was the Nazi accession to power in Germany (1933). Persecution and the Jews' worsening situation caused aliyah from Germany to increase, and aliyah from Eastern Europe to resume. Many of the immigrants from Germany were professionals; their impact was to be felt in many fields of endeavor. Within a four-year period (1933-1936), 174,000 Jews settled in the country. The towns flourished as new industrial enterprises were founded and construction of the Haifa port and the oil refineries was completed. Throughout the country, "stockade and tower" settlements were established. During this period �* in 1929 and again in 1936-39 �* violent Arab attacks on the Jewish population took place, called "disturbances" by the British. The British government imposed restrictions on immigration, resulting in Aliyah Bet — clandestine, illegal immigration.
By 1940, nearly 250,000 Jews had arrived during the Fifth Aliyah (20,000 of them left later) and the yishuv's population reached 450,000. From this time on, the practice of "numbering" the waves of immigration was discontinued �* which is not to say that aliyah had exhausted itself.The signal event of this aliyah wave was the Nazi accession to power in Germany (1933). Persecution and the Jews' worsening situation caused aliyah from Germany to increase, and aliyah from Eastern Europe to resume. Many of the immigrants from Germany were professionals; their impact was to be felt in many fields of endeavor. Within a four-year period (1933-1936), 174,000 Jews settled in the country. The towns flourished as new industrial enterprises were founded and construction of the Haifa port and the oil refineries was completed. Throughout the country, "stockade and tower" settlements were established. During this period �* in 1929 and again in 1936-39 �* violent Arab attacks on the Jewish population took place, called "disturbances" by the British. The British government imposed restrictions on immigration, resulting in Aliyah Bet — clandestine, illegal immigration.[url=http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... liyah.html[/url]
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: The Zionist Project almost failed due to limited interest early on.
And those contradictions have to eventually be dealt with, one way or another! In America, the contradiction between "all men are created equal," and "slavery is a legitimate institution" could not be resolved without civil war. Although the post-slavery era discriminatory hierarchy seems to show that the general approach has been to sweep inequalities under the rug and proclaim meritocracy.
You are entitled to that.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: I never see any mention of Israel's arms export industries and their security and counter-insurgency training businesses mentioned in the Israel/Palestine conflicts.
Then again, I don't see much of any context provided on any issue these days reported in mainstream media!
Hmm
See just what you mean, or maybe not.
High Threshold;1460092 wrote: yes, very fascinating! In decades and centuries past, there have been uprisings, civil wars and revolutions (if I recall, there was one in America's history); and today, rather than follow the liberal strategy of relieving pressure that could lead to social unrest, all forms of governments claiming to be democracies are in fact fascist oligarchies who are tipping their hand that they will find new ways and use new technologies to further oppress common people instead. Israel's use of their Palestinian counter-insurgency laboratory, combined with the U.S.'s excuse of using 9-11 to allow mass surveillance, torture, and violation of basic human rights, are tip-offs of how they will act when unrest breaks out in America and Europe.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
What happened to Kamala Harris' campaign?
She had the black vote all locked up.
She had the black vote all locked up.
-
High Threshold
- Posts: 2856
- Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:20 am
Palestine.....again and again and again.
Bruv;1460111 wrote: Underdog was sarcasm, although....................at one time long long ago, the poor fleeing Jewish hoards escaping persecution may have been due our sympathy and support.
Agreed.
Bruv;1460111 wrote: "In house" analogies are good......on more trivial subjects.......if between people that have contributed to the "in house" item referred to in the analogy.Tude hasn't as far as I remember.
I suspect very strongly that he's been "in the know" but I get your point.
Agreed.
Bruv;1460111 wrote: "In house" analogies are good......on more trivial subjects.......if between people that have contributed to the "in house" item referred to in the analogy.Tude hasn't as far as I remember.
I suspect very strongly that he's been "in the know" but I get your point.
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High Threshold
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Palestine.....again and again and again.
tude dog;1460112 wrote: Why? Just because you made it up?
Score?
That sure made a lot of sense.
NOT !
Try reading slowly and with earnest. Take note of words, their meaning ..... and don't fail to observe the punctuation. Just for starters notice I wrote "the score" in quotation points. "A-ha", you're saying, "now I understand!" Excellent!
Score?
That sure made a lot of sense.
NOT !
Try reading slowly and with earnest. Take note of words, their meaning ..... and don't fail to observe the punctuation. Just for starters notice I wrote "the score" in quotation points. "A-ha", you're saying, "now I understand!" Excellent!
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High Threshold
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Palestine.....again and again and again.
tude dog;1460123 wrote: I must wonder if there is more to this whole story. I did not spend a lot of time reading about what Mr. Finkelstein wrote as to me for the most part was pretty much standard stuff one might say.
Mr. Findelstein may have a problem, so do a lot of people. I wouldn't over blow it.
From what I read I believe the people who threatened Mr. Finkelstein are of the Orthodox, Haredi who would be upset. They are also the people who do not recognize the State of Israel as they are busy waiting for some messiah.
Nobody else cares.
Making stuff up again.
[url=http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... liyah.html[/url]
You are entitled to that.
Hmm
See just what you mean, or maybe not.
To use your own style of phrase ..... you quoted me very well ..... NOT.
I think you've got me on the brain.
Mr. Findelstein may have a problem, so do a lot of people. I wouldn't over blow it.
From what I read I believe the people who threatened Mr. Finkelstein are of the Orthodox, Haredi who would be upset. They are also the people who do not recognize the State of Israel as they are busy waiting for some messiah.
Nobody else cares.
Making stuff up again.
[url=http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... liyah.html[/url]
You are entitled to that.
Hmm
See just what you mean, or maybe not.
To use your own style of phrase ..... you quoted me very well ..... NOT.
I think you've got me on the brain.
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recovering conservative
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Palestine.....again and again and again.
tude dog;1460123 wrote: I'm no scholar, but do I know the story of the 10 lost tribes. How much if any is true, who knows? I'll let other people dig in the dirt to find clues. For me everything I need to know is in the BOOK.
Yes, I forgot that according to the story, the Levites didn't return to polytheism and became the priests of the Temple. All that can be proven, is that there were people calling their tribe - Judah. They...who knows if it was the entire tribe...were taken into bondage, into a life of slavery in Babylon, and were among many of the enslaved that Cyrus the Persian emperor set free when he conquered the Babylonians. Everything we know about the "lost tribes" of Israel is in the Bible! There are no external sources to verify that the Judeans were one of a 12 tribe nation called Israel. There is no evidence of this ancient Israel existing in non-biblical literature, let alone that the nation of Israel conquered the lands to their east all the way to the Euphrates River...supposedly during the reign of King Solomon.
Why is this important today? One reason at least - we have a modern nation, seizing territories and expelling natives on the basis of rebuilding a mythical nation of the distant past.
I must wonder if there is more to this whole story. I did not spend a lot of time reading about what Mr. Finkelstein wrote as to me for the most part was pretty much standard stuff one might say.
Mr. Findelstein may have a problem, so do a lot of people. I wouldn't over blow it.
From what I've read about him, he's not an easy guy to get along with, but that's typical of radicals in many fields who buck the accepted wisdom and refuse to go along with the crowd.
From what I read I believe the people who threatened Mr. Finkelstein are of the Orthodox, Haredi who would be upset. They are also the people who do not recognize the State of Israel as they are busy waiting for some messiah.
Nobody else cares.
There are a lot more than the Orthodox, who are outraged by his findings! First of all, he has called into question, the entire legitimacy of Israeli archaeology right up to recent times. The standard approach of the major scholars in the field, followed the guidance of people like Yigael Yadin - who believed that the purpose of biblical archaeology was to prove the existence of places, events and people described in the Bible. That approach made Yadin so popular, that he also ended up as prime minister of Israel.
Finkelstein has gone in the opposite direction, and even secular Reformed Jews want to try to shut him down, because the legitimacy of the modern state of Israel depends on the accuracy of the biblical historical accounts.
It's worth noting that the father of the modern Zionist movement - Theodore Herzl, investigated and even promoted other proposals for a Jewish homeland besides going back to Palestine! A senior British diplomat - Joseph Chamberlain, proposed Uganda...then a British colony, as the Jewish homeland; and Herzl in turn, presented the British Uganda Plan to the Sixth Zionist Congress in Switzerland in 1903. There was also an offer made in the 1930's to set up a Jewish homeland in the Kimberly region of Western Australia.
I guess the point is from the historical perspective, that the early Zionists weren't under the impression that the homeland had to be in Palestine.
Yes, I forgot that according to the story, the Levites didn't return to polytheism and became the priests of the Temple. All that can be proven, is that there were people calling their tribe - Judah. They...who knows if it was the entire tribe...were taken into bondage, into a life of slavery in Babylon, and were among many of the enslaved that Cyrus the Persian emperor set free when he conquered the Babylonians. Everything we know about the "lost tribes" of Israel is in the Bible! There are no external sources to verify that the Judeans were one of a 12 tribe nation called Israel. There is no evidence of this ancient Israel existing in non-biblical literature, let alone that the nation of Israel conquered the lands to their east all the way to the Euphrates River...supposedly during the reign of King Solomon.
Why is this important today? One reason at least - we have a modern nation, seizing territories and expelling natives on the basis of rebuilding a mythical nation of the distant past.
I must wonder if there is more to this whole story. I did not spend a lot of time reading about what Mr. Finkelstein wrote as to me for the most part was pretty much standard stuff one might say.
Mr. Findelstein may have a problem, so do a lot of people. I wouldn't over blow it.
From what I've read about him, he's not an easy guy to get along with, but that's typical of radicals in many fields who buck the accepted wisdom and refuse to go along with the crowd.
From what I read I believe the people who threatened Mr. Finkelstein are of the Orthodox, Haredi who would be upset. They are also the people who do not recognize the State of Israel as they are busy waiting for some messiah.
Nobody else cares.
There are a lot more than the Orthodox, who are outraged by his findings! First of all, he has called into question, the entire legitimacy of Israeli archaeology right up to recent times. The standard approach of the major scholars in the field, followed the guidance of people like Yigael Yadin - who believed that the purpose of biblical archaeology was to prove the existence of places, events and people described in the Bible. That approach made Yadin so popular, that he also ended up as prime minister of Israel.
Finkelstein has gone in the opposite direction, and even secular Reformed Jews want to try to shut him down, because the legitimacy of the modern state of Israel depends on the accuracy of the biblical historical accounts.
It's worth noting that the father of the modern Zionist movement - Theodore Herzl, investigated and even promoted other proposals for a Jewish homeland besides going back to Palestine! A senior British diplomat - Joseph Chamberlain, proposed Uganda...then a British colony, as the Jewish homeland; and Herzl in turn, presented the British Uganda Plan to the Sixth Zionist Congress in Switzerland in 1903. There was also an offer made in the 1930's to set up a Jewish homeland in the Kimberly region of Western Australia.
I guess the point is from the historical perspective, that the early Zionists weren't under the impression that the homeland had to be in Palestine.
Palestine.....again and again and again.
There is a strange irony in an American and a Canadian arguing the toss over the histories of people to call a place their homeland.
I thought I knew more than this until I opened my mouth
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High Threshold
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Palestine.....again and again and again.
:wah:Too bloody true!
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Mark Aspam
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Bruv;1459981 wrote: Every time I say it, I find it incredible, but for many years US aid to Israel has been larger than ALL the aid combined given everywhere else, and US aid is massive.It's incredible because it's ridiculous. Where on earth did you come up with that statistic?
I don't know the actual figures, but I believe that Egypt receives the same amount as Israel, which alone negates your claim. Then all of the other nations receiving US aid must be added. Massive indeed, but hardly monopolized by Israel.
Surely the actual figures must be available, if someone can provide a reliable source, please do so, or I will try to find them and post them myself on this or a new thread.
There have been several threads over the years on this subject, mostly going nowhere, and I do not intend to become embroiled in this one. But here is some BASIC food for thought:
Brave Israeli soldiers risk their lives protecting their women and children from terrorists.
Cowardly Islamic terrorists attack Israel while hiding behind their women and children.
Supporters of the terrorists are not "innocent civilians'.
The Hamas leader himself sums it up: "The Israelis love life and we love death."
That's the whole thing in the proverbial nutshell. All the rest is commentary.
I don't know the actual figures, but I believe that Egypt receives the same amount as Israel, which alone negates your claim. Then all of the other nations receiving US aid must be added. Massive indeed, but hardly monopolized by Israel.
Surely the actual figures must be available, if someone can provide a reliable source, please do so, or I will try to find them and post them myself on this or a new thread.
There have been several threads over the years on this subject, mostly going nowhere, and I do not intend to become embroiled in this one. But here is some BASIC food for thought:
Brave Israeli soldiers risk their lives protecting their women and children from terrorists.
Cowardly Islamic terrorists attack Israel while hiding behind their women and children.
Supporters of the terrorists are not "innocent civilians'.
The Hamas leader himself sums it up: "The Israelis love life and we love death."
That's the whole thing in the proverbial nutshell. All the rest is commentary.
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High Threshold
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Palestine.....again and again and again.
Mark Aspam;1460145 wrote:
Brave Israeli soldiers risk their lives protecting their women and children from terrorists.
Oh, cut the crap. Palestinian children go up against the Israel Army (equipped with guns, tanks, rockets, helicopters) and all the children have are a handfull of rocks. That's what is called BRAVE. And then there are Palestinians who strap explosives to their waist and ignite it. In comparison to that the Israelis don't have the tinniest idea of what "Bravery" means.
Brave Israeli soldiers risk their lives protecting their women and children from terrorists.
Oh, cut the crap. Palestinian children go up against the Israel Army (equipped with guns, tanks, rockets, helicopters) and all the children have are a handfull of rocks. That's what is called BRAVE. And then there are Palestinians who strap explosives to their waist and ignite it. In comparison to that the Israelis don't have the tinniest idea of what "Bravery" means.
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recovering conservative
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Palestine.....again and again and again.
Bruv;1460136 wrote: There is a strange irony in an American and a Canadian arguing the toss over the histories of people to call a place their homeland.
This "Canadian" gives more weight to the claims from people who were living on their lands and expelled through ethnic cleansing in recent memory, than the legitimacy of claims coming from mythological sources that are thousands of years old.
This "Canadian" gives more weight to the claims from people who were living on their lands and expelled through ethnic cleansing in recent memory, than the legitimacy of claims coming from mythological sources that are thousands of years old.