Israel bombs Gaza.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:48 pm

Omni_Skittles;1101214 wrote: eh i wouldn't know that... but i'm thinking they would of... i mean they did everything but that... But God has protection over his people! :-6 ( just thought i'd throw that in)

As Scrat quite rightly said, the Holocaust was not all about the Jews. I can google the exact numbers for you if you like but millions of Eastern Europeans were slaughtered as well. Mostly Polish and Russian. The Russians could easily play the Holocaust card when they entered Georgia as an example.

The Israeli's have played the Holocauset card once too often. Sympathy wears thin after a while. In britain, we could play the WW11 card when-ever their is foriegn affairs problems but our governments moved on years ago. It's time Israel did the same and except they will never defeat the Arabs and give them their own state.

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:05 pm

oscar;1101580 wrote: As Scrat quite rightly said, the Holocaust was not all about the Jews. I can google the exact numbers for you if you like but millions of Eastern Europeans were slaughtered as well. Mostly Polish and Russian. The Russians could easily play the Holocaust card when they entered Georgia as an example.

The Israeli's have played the Holocauset card once too often. Sympathy wears thin after a while. In britain, we could play the WW11 card when-ever their is foriegn affairs problems but our governments moved on years ago. It's time Israel did the same and except they will never defeat the Arabs and give them their own state.then you could say that about native americans as well.... but the government is still paying for stuff they did hundreds of years ago... so, Oh AND i think it matters that 5.9 million jews were killed... as well as the other people... and you are using the wwII card, to prove a point, so either way you are still using that card...

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:11 pm

Jester;1101603 wrote: And I think this is a valid response. Well said Skittles.

Israel needs to fight at this point, they have no choice, either they fight or they continue to be subjected to terror by a militant terror group (Hamas).

I think Israel will do all they can to minimize the civilan deaths/colateral damage just as they have been.And i think that's okay. I mean that's what happens when you mess with people for so long.. they are eventually going to attack you back.

Post by **spot** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:54 am

Omni_Skittles;1101597 wrote: then you could say that about native americans as well.... but the government is still paying for stuff they did hundreds of years ago.I'd be interested to know what stuff.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:01 am

spot;1101925 wrote: I'd be interested to know what stuff.

Yes, what stuff??

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:25 am

Omni_Skittles;1101597 wrote: then you could say that about native americans as well.... but the government is still paying for stuff they did hundreds of years ago... so, Oh AND i think it matters that 5.9 million jews were killed... as well as the other people... and you are using the wwII card, to prove a point, so either way you are still using that card...

You obviousley do not actually read posts.

I said in a prior post to Jester, if you bothered to read it, that Jews were not the only Europeans 'cleansed' in the holocaust. This statement indicates that i am including jews in that statement. There-fore your pointing out to me that there were 5.9 jews killed as well as the other people is a contridiction of my post and statements.

The reference to ww11 is to point out that of the many countries that were at war with Nazi germany including America, none of those countrie's harbour the grudges that Israel do. That is the point of what i had written..not to use the ww11 card..or do you have trouble understanding the basic written English word?

Considering it was America who backed and funded Sadam against Iran, Israel had better watch their backs. Look at what America did to Sadam after supporting him for all those years?? If you know nothing of the Iraq/Iran war, i suggest you do some googling and learn a little before making inane comments.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:57 am

jester;1102181 wrote: go easy on her oscar, shes in the process of learning too. She knows she wants to support israel, shes just havin a little trouble getting it in words yet. I'd beg from you an extra measure of grace from you towards her on this subject. In the interest of civility.

:-6:-6:-6:-6:-6

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:51 am

Scrat;1102201 wrote: Anymore news? What I'm getting is sparse canned stuff. The only piece that said anything is that Israeli tanks and troops started from the north and north east in 2 spearheads. The NE spearhead has swung south of Gaza city then swung west cutting off the city. I put that together from a report by someone in egypt who saw tanks on the beach south west of Gaza city. They apparently have not went into the cities yet. The strip is apparently cut in half.

In this article it says 200 Palisitinians dead

Gaza is a 'catastrophe' | The Sun |News

BBC news just come in Britain

Palistian dead............ 2,000

Israeli dead ................. 1

Not confirmed yet though.

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:15 pm

Jester;1102181 wrote: Go easy on her Oscar, shes in the process of learning too. She knows she wants to support Israel, shes just havin a little trouble getting it in words yet. I'd beg from you an extra measure of grace from you towards her on this subject. In the interest of civility. :)YEAH OSCAR! so if i say something like.... Gaza deserves what's coming to them... you can't say anything to me! *hides behind Jester* :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Chookie · Post by **Chookie** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:34 pm

Omni_Skittles;1101570 wrote: actually in that sense i was talking about the Jewish God... seeing how jewish don't believe in Christ... :-6

That seems a bit perjorative, especially as all the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are based on the same bronze-age middle-eastern sky fairy.

I'd personally like to see the whole region demilitarised and under UN or NATO control.

Unfortunately, it doesn't actually matter how much we argue about it. The fact remains that both Hamas and the Israelis are complicit in building a huge reservoir of hatred in the region.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:50 pm

Omni_Skittles;1102465 wrote: YEAH OSCAR! so if i say something like.... Gaza deserves what's coming to them... you can't say anything to me! *hides behind Jester* :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

In a bare knuckle fight... I'd quite gladly take Jester on. :sneaky::sneaky:

And, i'll say what the **** i like

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:59 pm

Scrat;1102732 wrote: Thanks Oscar, that kind of agrees with my source. I suspect that there will be a lot of civilian casualties. The Israelis want the Gaza strip for themselves and intend to push every last Palestinian out of the area. If you think about it that's the only way they can stop the rockets "once and for all", by complete and total occupation.

Of course the survivors will be pushed into the Sinai or disbursed far afield and will become the problems of other countries. I suspect Egypt will be forced to take some of them and the rockets will continue.
If the reports are true, this comes back to what Spot said very early on...Proportion.

This kind of violence will make Hamas more radical in the long run. I have said it before but i believe the way to beat this, is through intelligence work, not the indiscriminate killing that Israel is now doing. Sympathy has run out for them. The British prime Minister has called for an immediate ceasefire. It needs America to do the same... but they won't will they?

It just confirms to me all the more that Israel is a hate fueled country bent of exterminating every palistian until there is no child left standing.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:07 pm

Omni_Skittles;1102465 wrote: YEAH OSCAR! so if i say something like.... Gaza deserves what's coming to them... you can't say anything to me! *hides behind Jester* :yh_rotfl:yh_rotfl

Firstly, it is not Gaza... It is Hamas i think you meant.

Have a good read read of all the innocent Palistian children DEAD in this article that has just hit Britain's news.

Yep, it's really funny isn't it??

At least 14 children killed in Gaza terror as Israel defies demands for a ceasefire | Mail Online

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:14 pm

oscar;1102754 wrote: Firstly, it is not Gaza... It is Hamas i think you meant.

Have a good read read of all the innocent Palistian children DEAD in this article that has just hit Britain's news.

Yep, it's really funny isn't it??

At least 14 children killed in Gaza terror as Israel defies demands for a ceasefire | Mail Online
I'm sorry sarcasm is lost in text.... :-5

Omni_Skittles · Post by **Omni_Skittles** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:15 pm

oscar;1102754 wrote: Firstly, it is not Gaza... It is Hamas i think you meant.

Have a good read read of all the innocent Palistian children DEAD in this article that has just hit Britain's news.

Yep, it's really funny isn't it??

At least 14 children killed in Gaza terror as Israel defies demands for a ceasefire | Mail Onlinei actually was going to say the hamas... but i didn't know the proper spelling for it so i kind of avoided it... :-3 but yes that's what i meant!!!

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:41 am

Omni_Skittles;1102855 wrote: i actually was going to say the hamas... but i didn't know the proper spelling for it so i kind of avoided it... :-3 but yes that's what i meant!!!

When a thread has gone to 18 or so pages, it's odds on that some-one some-where has used the correct term. All you have to do is read other members posts before you post and you'll find the terminology that you are looking for. Failing that ... google.

Post by **spot** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:09 am

There was a debate in the House of Commons yesterday on the continuing disproportionate attack on Gaza by Israel's military. It's at House of Commons Hansard Debates for 15 Jan 2009 (pt 0012)

I think the contribution which follows deserves wider distribution. I find it very moving. Gerald Kaufman has been a member of parliament for 38 years.Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine.

I first went to Israel in 1961 and I have been there since more times than I can count. I had family in Israel and have friends in Israel. One of them fought in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973 and was wounded in two of them. The tie clip that I am wearing is made from a campaign decoration awarded to him, which he presented to me.

I have known most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, starting with the founding Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. Golda Meir was my friend, as was Yigal Allon, Deputy Prime Minister, who, as a general, won the Negev for Israel in the 1948 war of independence.

My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.

On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestinians—the total is now 1,000. She replied instantly that“500 of them were militants.”That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.

The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni’s father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.

Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatah’s previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafat’s death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed.

The great Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, with whom I campaigned for peace on many platforms, said:“You make peace by talking to your enemies.”However many Palestinians the Israelis murder in Gaza, they cannot solve this existential problem by military means. Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel.

It is time for our Government to make clear to the Israeli Government that their conduct and policies are unacceptable, and to impose a total arms ban on Israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the Israelis’ real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:48 am

spot;1110366 wrote:

israel was born out of jewish terrorism.

it is time for our government to make clear to the israeli government that their conduct and policies are unacceptable, and to impose a total arms ban on israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the israelis’ real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools.

oh, how very true.

:(

Post by **spot** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:04 am

The entire debate at House of Commons Hansard Debates for 15 Jan 2009 (pt 0012) is worth reading in detail but if I may I'd like to focus on one other passage.Mr. Roger Godsiff (Birmingham, Sparkbrook and Small Heath) (Lab): I am most grateful to have the opportunity to speak in the debate. The recent pictures that we have seen on television and the harrowing stories that we have read in the press have shocked and angered many people in this country, not least in my constituency. The pictures are so shocking that it could be easy to assume that all Israeli citizens support the actions of the Israeli Government, and it would also be easy to assume that all the people living in Gaza support the elements in Hamas that have been firing regular salvos of rockets into southern Israel. I do not believe that that is the case.

It has been said on many occasions that the first casualty of any conflict is the truth and that would certainly appear to be the case so far as the bombardment by the Israeli army and air force is concerned. Israeli Government spokespersons make nightly appearances on television seeking to justify why, for example, a UN school which had been assigned as a temporary refuge, and whose GPS co-ordinates were given to the Israeli army, was bombed, or why Shifa hospital in Gaza city was attacked. Those justifications are not only disingenuous, but are vehemently challenged by the UN and other aid agencies on the ground. They refute the allegations that those, and similar facilities, are being used as a cover for Hamas military activities. The conclusion that many people have drawn is not only that the “justifications of the Israelis are untrue, but that they mask the real intention of the onslaught, which is to destroy as much of the civilian infrastructure of Gaza as possible as a form of collective punishment of the people of Gaza for electing an Hamas Government.

The first duty of all Governments is to protect the integrity of their country and to protect their people from attack. I do not mean to trawl through the history of the last 60 years, ever since the United Nations decided to partition Palestine and to approve the creation of the state of Israel, or the subsequent history of conflict and missed opportunities for a lasting settlement based on the creation of a Palestinian state and the so-called two-state solution. However, we surely need to question whether the killing of more than 1,000 Gaza civilians is a proportionate response by Israel to the provocation of missiles being fired into southern Israel.

We also need to question whether the onslaught is not—I regret to say this—part of a parting shot from a thoroughly discredited American President and Administration who have singularly failed, throughout the past eight years, to understand the complexities of middle east politics, and who have naively believed that the promotion of democratic elections in countries with little or no history of democracy will solve everything. That is, of course, exactly what happened in Gaza. Unfortunately, the people elected a Government who were unacceptable to the discredited Bush Administration.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:01 am

spot;1111040 wrote: The entire debate at House of Commons Hansard Debates for 15 Jan 2009 (pt 0012) is worth reading in detail but if I may I'd like to focus on one other passage.Mr. Roger Godsiff (Birmingham, Sparkbrook and Small Heath) (Lab): I am most grateful to have the opportunity to speak in the debate. The recent pictures that we have seen on television and the harrowing stories that we have read in the press have shocked and angered many people in this country, not least in my constituency. The pictures are so shocking that it could be easy to assume that all Israeli citizens support the actions of the Israeli Government, and it would also be easy to assume that all the people living in Gaza support the elements in Hamas that have been firing regular salvos of rockets into southern Israel. I do not believe that that is the case.

It has been said on many occasions that the first casualty of any conflict is the truth and that would certainly appear to be the case so far as the bombardment by the Israeli army and air force is concerned. Israeli Government spokespersons make nightly appearances on television seeking to justify why, for example, a UN school which had been assigned as a temporary refuge, and whose GPS co-ordinates were given to the Israeli army, was bombed, or why Shifa hospital in Gaza city was attacked. Those justifications are not only disingenuous, but are vehemently challenged by the UN and other aid agencies on the ground. They refute the allegations that those, and similar facilities, are being used as a cover for Hamas military activities. The conclusion that many people have drawn is not only that the “justifications of the Israelis are untrue, but that they mask the real intention of the onslaught, which is to destroy as much of the civilian infrastructure of Gaza as possible as a form of collective punishment of the people of Gaza for electing an Hamas Government.The first duty of all Governments is to protect the integrity of their country and to protect their people from attack. I do not mean to trawl through the history of the last 60 years, ever since the United Nations decided to partition Palestine and to approve the creation of the state of Israel, or the subsequent history of conflict and missed opportunities for a lasting settlement based on the creation of a Palestinian state and the so-called two-state solution. However, we surely need to question whether the killing of more than 1,000 Gaza civilians is a proportionate response by Israel to the provocation of missiles being fired into southern Israel.

We also need to question whether the onslaught is not—I regret to say this—part of a parting shot from a thoroughly discredited American President and Administration who have singularly failed, throughout the past eight years, to understand the complexities of middle east politics, and who have naively believed that the promotion of democratic elections in countries with little or no history of democracy will solve everything. That is, of course, exactly what happened in Gaza. Unfortunately, the people elected a Government who were unacceptable to the discredited Bush Administration.

That is one factor that is convieniently over-looked. The people of Gaza electing Hamas. The Israeli's refuse to acknowledge that this is the chosen government of Gaza.

suzy_creamcheese · Post by **suzy_creamcheese** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:13 pm

And some people wonder why the gazans and palestinians throw rockets. Why cant they defend THEIR home. They cant because the US controls Israel and wants the gaza strip as a port into the middle east.

Very unsurprised to see yosemite sams/jesters response on this thread.

Other than that ive found the thread very informative after just reading the whole thing

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:38 pm

suzy_creamcheese;1111622 wrote:

And some people wonder why the gazans and palestinians throw rockets. Why cant they defend THEIR home. They cant because the US controls Israel and wants the gaza strip as a port into the middle east.

Very unsurprised to see yosemite sams/jesters response on this thread.

Other than that ive found the thread very informative after just reading the whole thing

Stage one to stage four is the stark reality of what Israel has done to Palistine.

Well done Gordon Brown, the British Government and the people of Great Britain for condemning terrorist Israel.

P.s. I got a news item tonight. British Muslim leaders are condemning Israel for bombing BRITISH JEWS in Gaza.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:47 am

I'm perfectly content for the whole of that land to be called Israel. I insist that it can have no laws in future which selectively distinguish on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity or gender.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:41 am

spot;1112082 wrote: I'm perfectly content for the whole of that land to be called Israel. I insist that it can have no laws in future which selectively distinguish on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity or gender.

The reality is, Israel would not agree to that until they had driven every Palistinian from the land. Equally, I'd be quite happy for the whole of the land to be called Palistine. Let the Israeli's get used to it.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:17 am

It isn't up to Israel, no more than white South Africa was allowed to continue to selectively discriminate on the basis of race. It's a matter of international acceptability. Nobody's going to move a single Jew out of Israel, all we're going to do is make Israeli law transparent to race, ethnicity, religion and gender. Laws can't discriminate. A National Constitution can't discriminate. Saudi Arabia's just as bad but Saudi Arabia's laws don't bring death to thousands and misery to millions so it's not as high on any international agenda. Israel, on the other hand, is.

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:58 am

spot;1112225 wrote: It isn't up to Israel, no more than white South Africa was allowed to continue to selectively discriminate on the basis of race. It's a matter of international acceptability. Nobody's going to move a single Jew out of Israel, all we're going to do is make Israeli law transparent to race, ethnicity, religion and gender. Laws can't discriminate. A National Constitution can't discriminate. Saudi Arabia's just as bad but Saudi Arabia's laws don't bring death to thousands and misery to millions so it's not as high on any international agenda. Israel, on the other hand, is.
Are Hamas not striving for an independent state? They are unlikely to accept Palistine being termed as general Israel.

Post by **spot** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:06 am

oscar;1112264 wrote: Are Hamas not striving for an independent state? They are unlikely to accept Palistine being termed as general Israel.

If the Palestinians can have an independent state that's fine, it has nothing to do with whether it's acceptable for Israel to have laws which discriminate on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion or gender. Why do you see the two matters are related?

Post by **Oscar Namechange** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:29 pm

Scrat;1112407 wrote: I will say it again. Israel has a right to exist as a state, I will grant that gladly. Jewish people do have a right to live there in peace and happiness.

The government of Israel as it is and has been has no right whatsoever to exist.

The Israeli settlers are terrorists themselves. They have no right to exist as they are and should be dealt with harshly.

The past injustices forced on the Palestinians must be adressed because they do have legitimate claims. There are people living in Gaza now that were forced off their land at gunpoint. That is not right.

Agreed. What of the children born in Gaza? It is their home, their birthright, their land.

The world must address these injustices or there will never be peace.