ForumGarden

Pinky;488163 wrote: Anyway, how the hell did a discussion about people stereotyping americans get onto *sigh* the war in Iraq (again)?Don't look at me, Pinky, I didn't go anywhere near it.

What puzzles me about the US is that it's based entirely - almost religiously - on capitalist consumption and yet the proportion of the population capable of participating in the buying-trivia part of the economy is growing smaller. The low-value production jobs are sweat-shopped out to developing economies where it's cheaper but that leaves a growing base of breadline families within the US who can't any longer participate in consumption. Capitalism depends on their ability to soak up the goods and their capacity to soak it up is diminishing.

Pinky;488163 wrote: What's with all the defensive attitude? Surely someone who has Sooo many guns shouldn't feel the need to call someone else a freak? Freaky or what?:rolleyes:



Anyway, how the hell did a discussion about people stereotyping americans get onto *sigh* the war in Iraq (again)?




DID I bring it up (The war) first PINKY?

LOOK HERE...........



Patsy Warnick;488145 wrote: BTS

its the amount of the guns you own - you have that unpopular attitude.!!

Why are we at war ?? explain that to me Mr. 8 gun man.. Perhaps you should be on our front line.



Patsy


My first post was about remaining free and NUTTIN ABOUT war:



Here it is (show me where I brought up the war FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!!!):



Quote:

Originally Posted by caesar777

I don't know any Americans, I'm sure that individually they are lovely people.

I despise the American culture of competition, winner takes all and devil take the hindmost. I also dislike the big-headed "land of the free" attitude that they have.

Free as long as you share the majority's views. Look at the McCarthy era.

My biggest hate is the saying "As American as apple pie". We've been making apple pie here for millenia.



Just found this thread..................



UUUHHHHHMMM caesar777 These are the MOST ignorant statements as I have EVER heard (seen) on the net (and oh yes been here since the 80's)





Quote:

Originally Posted by caesar777

"I also dislike the big-headed "land of the free" attitude that they have.

Free as long as you share the majority's views. Look at the McCarthy era.

My biggest hate is the saying "As American as apple pie". We've been making apple pie here for millenia.



I resent this remark:

"THE BIG HEADED LAND OF THE FREE"...............

TISK TISK............juliussss



Yes we are and WILL remain that way, (FREE) as we have a constitution ....... that was made BY and FOR the people......... unlike Your country..........

SO yes we DO live in The Land O the Free and the HOME of the BRAVE........



And YES we are a Democracy that has the "RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS" (UNLIKE some goverments that have banned them) and STAY FREE and OH yes............................................... ..............................................

......................................... (CAN YOU OWN A GUN? I have 8!!!!!!)













THEN THIS........................





















WHAT IS A BIG HEADED.............AMERICAN........

























That B Me and over 180 million AMERICANS.......



G'day Mate

davieB

you stated your friends hold Americans with contempt ..?

Explain that Why?

Patsy

spot;488174 wrote: Don't look at me, Pinky, I didn't go anywhere near it.



What puzzles me about the US is that it's based entirely - almost religiously - on capitalist consumption and yet the proportion of the population capable of participating in the buying-trivia part of the economy is growing smaller. The low-value production jobs are sweat-shopped out to developing economies where it's cheaper but that leaves a growing base of breadline families within the US who can't any longer participate in consumption. Capitalism depends on their ability to soak up the goods and their capacity to soak it up is diminishing.


Spat............

Show us ALL proof of this asinine statement that can not be supported...............



spot;488174 wrote: "yet the proportion of the population capable of participating in the buying-trivia part of the economy is growing smaller. ".




Please do...........show us.

For every point you make I can counter with a + US economy that is kickin booty........ If one is savvy enough to pursue the American dream... and not sit on their arses and LOOK for Uncle SAM to support them they TOO can be wealthy.



I hate to bust your bubble but it is BOOMIN over here............

Patsy Warnick;488157 wrote: You don't own a machine gun ? your not with it..



Patsy


NO I don't.............. SOOOOOO I'm not with it?

Do U??????

OOOOOPSSSS......... the question should be

"Are you with it???"

BTS;488180 wrote: Spat............That's unnecessary and unwanted.

If you look at the second chart on http://www.faireconomy.org/research/wealth_charts.html you'll see the point I raised fairly blatantly demonstrated. The barchart accurately fits my wording. The poorer sections of US society have less and less to apply to consumption. Or are you saying that the US economy isn't dependent on their combined spending power and it makes no difference to the engine that they're not taking such a significant part any longer?

spot;488182 wrote: That's unnecessary and unwanted.



If you look at the second chart on http://www.faireconomy.org/research/wealth_charts.html you'll see the point I raised fairly blatantly demonstrated. The barchart accurately fits my wording. The poorer sections of US society have less and less to apply to consumption. Or are you saying that the US economy isn't dependent on their combined spending power and it makes no difference to the engine that they're not taking such a significant part any longer?




HUHHHHHHHHHHHHh Scrat.............

Nice TRY......



The link you site is from 2001?????? Just look below.

Got a MORE recent link that says the same??????

http://www.faireconomy.org/research/wealth_charts.html

BTS

Thread is Why are Americans unpopular?

I didn't Go thru / nor read all 25 pages, I stated why I tought US was unpopular -my opinion doesn't make me a bad guy.. No I don't own a gun - nor would I - nor would I have / give a reason to.

I do agree with your statement on capitalism diminishing and very few benefit from it.. I still wait to hear why people froun on the US ?

PATSY

BTS;488183 wrote: HUHHHHHHHHHHHHh Scrat.............That's still not amusing and I dislike it.

You just picked a graphic showing 50% of US citizens deploying just 2.8% of the wealth of the nation, I'm not sure what advantage that brings to your position.

Apart from dissing my point with mere denial, you might like to show figures which indicate that the bottom layer of society has, for example, an increasing spending power for consumption - that would genuinely show that I'm wrong in saying they have less. The chart I brought into the thread shows a drop for the lower 40%, not a rise, in the proportion of wealth they have available to consume with. It's not a marginal drop, it's a huge diminishment to just a quarter of what they deployed just fifteen years before. If you think more recent figures would help then bring them in. I'm contrasting the position across a generation, which seems a reasonable timespan.

My own opinion is that it's getting worse, not better.

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/facult ... wealth.htm is another discussion of the same topic. As it says, "There is very little data about the distribution of wealth in America", and getting figures for the most recent six years is hardest of all. It's a subject that government statistics tend to bury in the hope that it'll be invisible.

I think BTS got hypnotised by the pie and forgot to read the words.

Patsy Warnick;488141 wrote: Americans - US - had better start showing their strength and stand up for all who are fighting for our strength and freedom..

Bush has ruined our image, as far as I'm concerned. We've lost our allias, and Bush had made the US look weak. This Iraq war is a son's need to complete his fathers war - to make his daddy proud. HOW PROUD ARE YOU??

Why are Americans Unpopular - you need to ask..?? The US financed Sadam

Hussiam with amo & gun & power to fight the Shah of Iran and now we're trying to convict him. Why are American unpopular - you need to ask??

If Osama Binladen is hiding in the mountains - then we need to level the mountains - show are strength get our soldiers home and call it a day..



Patsy
After reading this thread, I need to as IF Americans are unpopular. Seems we're most unpopular within our own borders.

spot;488150 wrote: [...]

The actual food dispatched abroad is one of the chief reasons for the collapse of local agrarian economies and destroys the market value of cash crops for local producers, putting them into destitution. If it stopped tomorrow, and food exports from the US were only allowed out at full cost, the third world would heave a huge sigh of relief and start to rebuild its farming base knowing that it wouldn't be unpredictably undercut from one year to the next. Food aid is a nefarious interference in the internal affairs of other countries, economic aid is a nefarious interference in the internal affairs of other countries, propping up the economies of "allies" in the Middle East is a nefarious interference in the internal affairs of other countries, and this thread continually has "aid" put forward as benificent. It's nothing of the sort. When it comes to disaster relief efforts, which is a minor affair by comparison, everyone joins in, America included, how could anyone not. Dumping food and discounted weaponry is nothing to do with disaster relief.
Why have I never read this from you in discussions about saving the world or whether we have food shortages? Hopefully I can find this post the next time the subject pops up.



I'll just search for the Japanese word for rice: Gohan

spot;488174 wrote: Don't look at me, Pinky, I didn't go anywhere near it.



What puzzles me about the US is that it's based entirely - almost religiously - on capitalist consumption and yet the proportion of the population capable of participating in the buying-trivia part of the economy is growing smaller. The low-value production jobs are sweat-shopped out to developing economies where it's cheaper but that leaves a growing base of breadline families within the US who can't any longer participate in consumption.
Our unemployment is something like 4 percent and shrinking. How's the UK?

Diuretic;488216 wrote: Acc - you know you can't compare those figures. Unemployment makes capitallism work. So it's all moot.
Of course I can. Spot's claimed that our numbers of unemployed are growing. Peppered throughout the Garden are attitudes that our economic system are leaving huge numbers starving in the streets while everybody is taken care of in Europe.



It's a fair question.

Accountable;488210 wrote: Why have I never read this from you in discussions about saving the world or whether we have food shortages? Hopefully I can find this post the next time the subject pops up.
If I quote from an earlier post at http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=11 "Sanctions and Genocide" 07-21-2006, 06:54 AM you'll see that it's been an issue I've raised before:

I have many many times said don't send your excess government-subsidized food abroad since it undercuts local markets wherever it arrives. I have never ever said "feed the starving masses of the world".

Accountable;488217 wrote: Of course I can. Spot's claimed that our numbers of unemployed are growing.Jesus Christ, I'm sick of people inventing words for me. Show the post where I said any such thing, it's pure blind-siding. I didn't. If you were to address my point instead of inventing new and unsupportable words for me we might make progress.

spot;488219 wrote: If I quote from an earlier post at http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=11 "Sanctions and Genocide" 07-21-2006, 06:54 AM you'll see that it's been an issue I've raised before:

I have many many times said don't send your excess government-subsidized food abroad since it undercuts local markets wherever it arrives. I have never ever said "feed the starving masses of the world".
Okay. It's understandable why I missed it. I usually tune out your & Anastrophe's feud when it gets long-winded.

spot;488221 wrote: Jesus Christ, I'm sick of people inventing words for me. Show the post where I said any such thing, it's pure blind-siding. I didn't. If you were to address my point instead of inventing new and unsupportable words for me we might make progress.spot;488174 wrote: Don't look at me, Pinky, I didn't go anywhere near it.



What puzzles me about the US is that it's based entirely - almost religiously - on capitalist consumption and yet the proportion of the population capable of participating in the buying-trivia part of the economy is growing smaller. The low-value production jobs are sweat-shopped out to developing economies where it's cheaper but that leaves a growing base of breadline families within the US who can't any longer participate in consumption. Capitalism depends on their ability to soak up the goods and their capacity to soak it up is diminishing.
How else am I supposed to take the "growing base of breadline families" remark?

quote bts and spot reply "Originally Posted by BTS

HUHHHHHHHHHHHHh Scrat.............spot-

That's still not amusing and I dislike it."..............that's really funny since it was OK for spot to call me 'elsie' (the cow).

Accountable;488224 wrote: How else am I supposed to take the "growing base of breadline families" remark?As a comment on wage levels, not unemployment. One's one thing, the other's the other. The charts we've been discussing relate to the widening disparity in wealth which is tied largely to long-term wage rates - disposable wealth with which to consume non-essentials even more so.

I think that when you are discussing a generalized idea of why Americans or America is unpopular, getting into the fine details of one policy or another, or the minutiae of American life is a bit pointless, all countries can be analyzed like that and lots of things you would find might not be great. But this is more a discussion about perception rather than reality. There is definetly a perception out there about America at the moment. Some of it is based on justified things like opposition to the War in Iraq, the Administrations poor record on the Environment, specific foreign policy decisions and all of that, thats fine and valid. There is another form of this, which is based on looking at America through the prism of its worst popular culture, its most extreme political views, and its worst social problems, and thinking that this is what represents the country, its completely unjustified, as of course there are many, many excellent and positive aspects to the U.S. as a country, and these far outweigh the bad in my opinion.

There is also another type of anti-Americanism that is coming from states, ideologies, and doctrines, (some eminating from within the U.S. itself which is of course an open society that has many shades of opinion within it) that are violently anti-American precisely because the U.S. as a country represents the most powerful nation of the Western world, and is therefore a highly visible and active proponent of Western culture, ideas, and values, for me as a Western person, this is actually useful, because it makes us in the west perhaps more clearly aware of why we believe in what we believe, (and also because such values are not a default human condition, but ones that are particular to our own civilization and hard won indeed).

Its one thing for Europeans, Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, Argentinians, Mexicans, Brazilians, Japanese and other Western, or Western-affiliated societies to debate and argue about ideas such as social equity, democratic representation, law enforcement, gun control, TV culture, materialism, all of the ideas within western culture. Its another thing entirely when intellectuals from other civilizations try to demonize the West based on current American foreign policy, European colonial history, pop culture, social values etc. Many of these people are not trying to improve the west or really honestly debate western culture, their agenda is to destroy the progressive agenda within their own societies, discredit people (in say, Islamic countries) that identify part of their own beliefs with some of those of Western nations, such as pluralism, secularism, womens rights, democratic institutions, scientific progress, freedom of expression etc. In recent decades such people have been very successful in creating an atmosphere of fear and intolerance in their own societies (and also Western policy on many matters hasn't helped to be fair).

The operative thing is that this is not a friendly debate, its a quite deadly clash of ideas, and cultures, that we shall ignore at our own peril. Thats not a call to arms, its my view that (although of course we must always be prepared to defend ourselves and our way of life), its in actually showing by example that just because there are very different world views and civilizations on this planet, its quite possible for them all (if not to love each other) to coexist in manner that does not result in endless war or armed conflict. To be constructive, we in the west must be forthright about what we believe in, not be naive about the intentions and agendas of others, defend and promote our own ideas, while also be prepared to discuss and debate the ideas and issues of those other peoples and cultures that do not share our views in some kind of frank and honest manner, and be relaxed about the fact that not everyone sees things the way we do, and also that we are not in a position to make everyone believe in what we do either.

This anti-American trend over recent times, has actually made me far more actively pro-American than in the past, as I realize that in general terms, the core values that the American republic was founded on are ones that I believe are correct and good, and many other Europeans I think are coming to the same conclusions. On the day of September 11th we felt the emotional impact over here more than we would if a similar atrocity had happened in another part of the world, (and of course many terrible things happen and continue to happen in the world right now) precisely because instinctively we know that Americans are more or less the same as us, and that we are all involved in the same civilizational journey. That isn't a "support America at all costs" type argument at all, there are many things I do not agree with about America, and many foreign policy decisions also (not least the War in Iraq), but in general terms I realize that both Europe and America for all our many differences share the same civilizational ideas, and are bound up in each others fates, thats the major reason why even when I may give out about the states I do so as an admirer of that country and its people, and a friend.

Galbally;488254 wrote: I think that when you are discussing a generalized idea of why Americans or America is unpopular, getting into the fine details of one policy or another, or the minutiae of American life is a bit pointless, all countries can be analyzed like that and lots of things you would find might not be great.To speak slightly defensively, the reference I've made to the extreme disparity of wealth (and consequent lifestyle) between the lower and upper halves of American society, and I emphasize "extreme", is at the root of what I take to be a widespread revulsion at this far edge of capitalist exploitation. Everything else you mention is a direct consequence of the position which results from money being the be-all and end-all of desirability and valuation, not least the environmental concerns, the notion of fast food and the risible world-view of Hollywood. Eventually people will vote for what they need rather than what the press tells them is the American Dream, and things will finally change. The main indicator of it happening will be the end of all these lunatic "War on..." philosophies, and a reconnection with human values.

There was mild anti-American feeling that I first became aware of when I heard repeatedly, "if you travel through Europe, make sure that you put a big Canadian flag on your luggage so they know you aren't American." Not being sure why this was the case I mostly just thought "too bad for them" and "yay, am I ever glad I'm Canadian." I didn't bother to figure out why this sentiment existed as I was young and had no plans to travel outside the country at the time.

I doubt that the mild anti-American sentiment really died off but it most certainly has increased since my younger years. For my own part, when I hear Green Day, as an American band, singing "American Idiot" I fall in love with Americans as a people. (when I try conversing with anastrophe I have to go listen to the song again)

Here's what I see as a result of the Iraq war:

American administration -

arrogance, exercising of power for own agenda (crime of aggression), deceitful and dangerous

people of America

the ones I like are regular people with the regular desire to live life to the fullest.

the ones I don't like are those who show a lack of concern for anything beyond their own borders, lack of compassion and over proud via nationalistic behaviour, ready to defend the actions of the administration just because they are Americans.

spot;488266 wrote: To speak slightly defensively, the reference I've made to the extreme disparity of wealth (and consequent lifestyle) between the lower and upper halves of American society, and I emphasize "extreme", is at the root of what I take to be a widespread revulsion at this far edge of capitalist exploitation. Everything else you mention is a direct consequence of the position which results from money being the be-all and end-all of desirability and valuation, not least the environmental concerns, the notion of fast food and the risible world-view of Hollywood. Eventually people will vote for what they need rather than what the press tells them is the American Dream, and things will finally change. The main indicator of it happening will be the end of all these lunatic "War on..." philosophies, and a reconnection with human values.


Like I said in my post, I think that there is plenty of valid debate about issues such as the balance between commericalism, squalid pop culture, and corporate values as against the ideas of human freedom, social equity, pluralism etc, thats a useful and necessary debate as there are many things about the directions in which our societies are going (and its not just America, its all Western countries) that I disagree with. These debates are actually kind of timeless and have been a feature of intellectual discourse in our socities for centuries. E.G. Science versus Religion, Absolutism versus Enlightenmnet, Democracy versus Popular Despotism, Robust market capitalism versus milder capitalistic social democracy, (or even communism or staunch socialism). These debates will go on (in different guises) into the future as well, as long as we are still around to make them, and we have the freedom to speak our minds.

Again, thats not the same as the unspohiticated America-bashing that goes on because people in Europe watch Lost, or The OC, or ER, Fox News, Hollywood Movies, or Friends, or watch Larry King on CNN, and think thats actually representative of America, this of course is fatuous nonsense that we would quickly dismiss if other people were trying to do to our countries, (e.g. U2 the IRA, Ian Paisley, or Westlife are not representative of Ireland as a whole; no more than Eastenders, Oasis, Big Brother, the Queen, or the BNP are representative of Britain).

Also, of course, there are people outside of the western sphere, who use the very healthy and necessary debate and argument within western societies themselves as a means to demonstrate to naive people in other societies, that the West is in reality an evil/weak/decadent/contemptible place, which we know it is not (though it is no Utopia either). This kind of argument is finding much currency in the world today. Another depressing reality.

the ones I like are regular people with the regular desire to live life to the fullest.

the ones I don't like are those who show a lack of concern for anything beyond their own borders, lack of compassion and over proud via nationalistic behaviour, ready to defend the actions of the administration just because they are Americans.



Indeed, but is this not the case with people from any country? I like French people, but not the chauvenistic, arrogant ones, I like Brits (I was born in England after all), but not the xenophobic, little-englander ones, I like my own people, the Irish, but not the parocial, exremely nationalistitic, self serving and self-important ones. None of those things are exclusive to the states. Again the only difference is that because of its size and influence the U.S. comes up on the Radar a lot, unlike say Denmark, but thats another issue.

Galbally;488277 wrote: the ones I like are regular people with the regular desire to live life to the fullest.

the ones I don't like are those who show a lack of concern for anything beyond their own borders, lack of compassion and over proud via nationalistic behaviour, ready to defend the actions of the administration just because they are Americans.



Indeed, but is this not the case with people from any country? I like French people, but not the chauvenistic, arrogant ones, I like Brits (I was born in England after all), but not the xenophobic, little-englander ones, I like my own people, the Irish, but not the parocial, exremely nationalistitic, self serving and self-important ones. None of those things are exclusive to the states. Again the only difference is that because of its size and influence the U.S. comes up on the Radar a lot, unlike say Denmark, but thats another issue.


You are quite right.

My post is intended to show that it is not the American people I dislike, it is the current administration.

koan;488282 wrote: You are quite right.

My post is intended to show that it is not the American people I dislike, it is the current administration.


A prefectly reasonable view, and one that is also shared by the majority of U.S. citizens, which is why the Democratic party now control both houses in Washington.

Galbally;488306 wrote: A prefectly reasonable view, and one that is also shared by the majority of U.S. citizens, which is why the Democratic party now control both houses in Washington.


about freakin' time :rolleyes:

spot;488238 wrote: As a comment on wage levels, not unemployment. One's one thing, the other's the other. The charts we've been discussing relate to the widening disparity in wealth which is tied largely to long-term wage rates - disposable wealth with which to consume non-essentials even more so.
Of course, how silly of me. We all know that almost everybody in breadlines have full time jobs, right. You're not that stupid, Spot, and neither am I. When you get called on a backhanded (underhanded) snipe, at least be adult enough to accept it.

Accountable;488610 wrote: Of course, how silly of me. We all know that almost everybody in breadlines have full time jobs, right. You're not that stupid, Spot, and neither am I. When you get called on a backhanded (underhanded) snipe, at least be adult enough to accept it.I apologise. The word "breadline" does, as you point out, have two meanings and I'd simply assumed that the earlier one was redundant after all these years. We've not had literal breadlines in England since the 1930s.

bread-line (orig. U.S.), (a) a queue of poor people waiting to receive bread or other food given as charity;

also fig.; (b) = subsistence level;

Please take my assurance that the "subsistence level" meaning is the only one I had in my mind when I used it.

HEY HEY HEY HEY



Excuse me, has anyone else noticed that DavieB has not posted since post #2?

Mission accomplished, sir. The family is at odds.

I love my country and the people, good and bad. I love your country and people, good and bad. Especially all those here, with a few exceptions. Hear that Davie? We all have our problems, not just America. We can pick away at each others' homeland till the cows come home and never fix anything by arguing about it on a computer.



Now, pull back your claws, shake, hug and pat a butt or two.

Now then, fell better? :-4 Kisses!

Yes. Just usual kids in school holidays behaviour. Sad really. There must be so many much more fun ways to enjoy being out of class. Maybe these kids just don't have anything else to do, really.. Very sad. Anyway looks like Davie got hauled the heck out and is now hopefully helping Dad fix Christmas lights or taking the dog for a walk, or hey making snowmen with his mates.

911;491362 wrote: HEY HEY HEY HEY





Excuse me, has anyone else noticed that DavieB has not posted since post #2?



Mission accomplished, sir. The family is at odds.



I love my country and the people, good and bad. I love your country and people, good and bad. Especially all those here, with a few exceptions. Hear that Davie? We all have our problems, not just America. We can pick away at each others' homeland till the cows come home and never fix anything by arguing about it on a computer.





Now, pull back your claws, shake, hug and pat a butt or two.



Now then, fell better? :-4 Kisses!That was 3 days ago.

G'day onsekiz. It's great to see you again. And you are so right!!!!

GIGGLE.. I just love your accent !!!! Stone the Crows, Sport !!!!

911;491362 wrote: Excuse me, has anyone else noticed that DavieB has not posted since post #2?

Mission accomplished, sir. The family is at odds.

I really don't mind what triggers a thread, it's what we do with it that counts. DavieB made the effort, whatever his motive was. Thanks for your time, DavieB.

And Hi onsekiz, too, it's good to have you around.

911;491362 wrote:

I love my country and the people, good and bad. I love your country and people, good and bad. Especially all those here, with a few exceptions. Hear that Davie? We all have our problems, not just America. We can pick away at each others' homeland till the cows come home and never fix anything by arguing about it on a computer.




What does it matter?(I'm not singling you out, rather just stating my opinion based on simple context)

If anyone don't like me as a result of some actions by a few that happened to rub someone else the wrong way, they can ki** m% @$$...

I think it's equally as funny that no one cares to hold the works of very intelligent human beings whom have made great advancements in today's society world wide as a reflection of the majority, whereas negativity prevails...

Next thing you know everyone will associate African Americans as being cold blooded, drug dealing killers...Oh wait,..well...if such is the case, ignorance seems to be just as worthy to fit the accuser. I myself don't discriminate.

Diuretic;487875 wrote: Galbally wrote:







I missed it but Al Gore gave a lecture recently, I believe it might have been in Sydney, where he - and I think he is a professor of journalism nowadays - bemoaned the effect of television in reducing the ability of the average person for critical thinking.




Weird.......... He just started a TV network

Link below:



Gore and Murdoch join forces in TV deal

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/de691d8a-552e-1 ... e2340.html

I don't come here much anymore, this thread is old I know (Pre. Obama) and I am curious if there are any changed views of "THE LAND of MILK and HONEY" over the last 3+ years? Better? Worse?......??

I'll have to read the 290 posts before I can answer that.