Islamic *type* behavior
Islamic *type* behavior
Scrat wants the U. S. to police the world and make everything nicey nicey for all. Then when the U. S. takes down a murderous tyrant in Saddam and tries to liberat Iraq, the U. S. becomes the terroist. ---Go figure.
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Bill Sikes
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Islamic *type* behavior
YZGI wrote: Scrat wants the U. S. to police the world and make everything nicey nicey for all.
But that doesn't work, does it.
YZGI wrote: Then when the U. S. takes down a murderous tyrant in Saddam and tries to liberat Iraq, the U. S. becomes the terroist. ---Go figure.
QED.
But that doesn't work, does it.
YZGI wrote: Then when the U. S. takes down a murderous tyrant in Saddam and tries to liberat Iraq, the U. S. becomes the terroist. ---Go figure.
QED.
Islamic *type* behavior
I think if you want to make "*type* behaviour" comments, it is important to look at the behaviour of all parties and consider what their actions say to each other. This double standard of what's acceptable and what isn't really astounds me.
Here's a little controversy:
WARD CHURCHILL[regarding the WTC]: There was a Central Intelligence Agency office. There were Defense Department offices. There was, I believe, an F.B.I. facility. All of which fit the criteria of the bombing target selection utilized by the Pentagon. If it was fair to bomb such targets in Baghdad, it would be fair for others to bomb such targets in New York. That's what I'm saying. I don't think it's fair to bomb such targets in Baghdad, therefore I reject New York, but so long as United States is applying those rules out in the world, it really has no complaint when those rules are applied to it.
Now. Are the Arabs saying the US put their civilians in harms way by placing strategic targets in a civilian building? They could easily use the same logic that Israel and the US have used to justify civilian deaths.
Here's a little controversy:
WARD CHURCHILL[regarding the WTC]: There was a Central Intelligence Agency office. There were Defense Department offices. There was, I believe, an F.B.I. facility. All of which fit the criteria of the bombing target selection utilized by the Pentagon. If it was fair to bomb such targets in Baghdad, it would be fair for others to bomb such targets in New York. That's what I'm saying. I don't think it's fair to bomb such targets in Baghdad, therefore I reject New York, but so long as United States is applying those rules out in the world, it really has no complaint when those rules are applied to it.
Now. Are the Arabs saying the US put their civilians in harms way by placing strategic targets in a civilian building? They could easily use the same logic that Israel and the US have used to justify civilian deaths.
Islamic *type* behavior
YZGI wrote: Scrat wants the U. S. to police the world and make everything nicey nicey for all. Then when the U. S. takes down a murderous tyrant in Saddam and tries to liberat Iraq, the U. S. becomes the terroist. ---Go figure.
No-one but the Americans want the Americans to police the world.
Peoples are different and do not want to be forced into the mold of what's good for the USA.
No-one but the Americans want the Americans to police the world.
Peoples are different and do not want to be forced into the mold of what's good for the USA.
Islamic *type* behavior
I would be interested to know what folks think is the reason these conflicts started in the first place.....the REAL reasons.
What are the underlying grievances....can they be solved ? And how ?
What are the underlying grievances....can they be solved ? And how ?
A smile is a window on your face to show your heart is home
Islamic *type* behavior
Now I know why I never studied Latin :wah:
Islamic *type* behavior
"No-one but the Americans want the Americans to police the world."
Trust me on this one, BRYN....we don't ALL feel this way!
Trust me on this one, BRYN....we don't ALL feel this way!
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Islamic *type* behavior
Lulu2 wrote: "No-one but the Americans want the Americans to police the world."
Trust me on this one, BRYN....we don't ALL feel this way!
I know - many Americans I speak to don't like it either, but all too many (including, apparently, the administration) appear to think it America's right and/or duty.
Trust me on this one, BRYN....we don't ALL feel this way!
I know - many Americans I speak to don't like it either, but all too many (including, apparently, the administration) appear to think it America's right and/or duty.
Islamic *type* behavior
As to the OP
Nomad wrote: Ive come to a conclusion today on terrorism.
I suspect you had already come to most of your conclusions a while ago
It is, it exists and thrives because that particular portion of the world is weak of mind.
Your conclusion is based on a whole portion of the world being weak of mind. The quality of your own ability to reason is now in question.
The inability to reason for ones self indicates a lack of intelligence and an inability to understand and to differentiate between fundamental ideas like what is good, and what is not so good.
These are two separate things. Inability to reason for oneself does not mean that a person won't trust someone else to reason for them. That is what governments claim to be capable of doing, making vital decisions on behalf of their people. Many leaders and intellectuals have argued that the average person should leave political decisions up to those more qualified. The assigning of qualities such as "good" and "not so good" are entirely subjective. Who are you accusing of being unintelligent? An entire continent? On what information is this based? As to the "good" argument, while you might think that invading Iraq was "good" they might think otherwise.
Debate and self involvement=good
Killing Jews and Americans and teaching your children the same=bad
Pretty basic stuff really.
Too basic. You oversimplify.
Of the millions upon millions of Islamic citizens is there not one among them that is willing and able to stand up and say "hey this might not be working" ? Not one leader in the whole bunch ?
Yes. There is and are.
Its a back asswards civilization with no real hope for a bright future. This crowd is a lost cause. Im not implying theyre all terrorists, of course not. But they let it persist so they are just as guilty. The whole lot of them.
They are trying to not let it persist. They feel that Western foreign policy is keeping their future dim. They don't "let it persist", they are fighting back.
Martin Luther King did it. He stood up and said this is not right. We are men and women and children and we walk this Earth as every man woman and child would. And he did it peacefully. With determination, with fierce heart and with reason. He changed America by walking with one foot in front of the other.
I agree with you there. If they fought as MLK did, or Gandhi, or Mandela, then they would probably have still lost as many people but they would have far more support from the rest of the world.
Ive not heard one uttering of heart from the whole of the middle east. I spit on them.
You've not talked to many people from the Middle East then. All they see is you spitting on them, along with many others.
Nomad wrote: Ive come to a conclusion today on terrorism.
I suspect you had already come to most of your conclusions a while ago
It is, it exists and thrives because that particular portion of the world is weak of mind.
Your conclusion is based on a whole portion of the world being weak of mind. The quality of your own ability to reason is now in question.
The inability to reason for ones self indicates a lack of intelligence and an inability to understand and to differentiate between fundamental ideas like what is good, and what is not so good.
These are two separate things. Inability to reason for oneself does not mean that a person won't trust someone else to reason for them. That is what governments claim to be capable of doing, making vital decisions on behalf of their people. Many leaders and intellectuals have argued that the average person should leave political decisions up to those more qualified. The assigning of qualities such as "good" and "not so good" are entirely subjective. Who are you accusing of being unintelligent? An entire continent? On what information is this based? As to the "good" argument, while you might think that invading Iraq was "good" they might think otherwise.
Debate and self involvement=good
Killing Jews and Americans and teaching your children the same=bad
Pretty basic stuff really.
Too basic. You oversimplify.
Of the millions upon millions of Islamic citizens is there not one among them that is willing and able to stand up and say "hey this might not be working" ? Not one leader in the whole bunch ?
Yes. There is and are.
Its a back asswards civilization with no real hope for a bright future. This crowd is a lost cause. Im not implying theyre all terrorists, of course not. But they let it persist so they are just as guilty. The whole lot of them.
They are trying to not let it persist. They feel that Western foreign policy is keeping their future dim. They don't "let it persist", they are fighting back.
Martin Luther King did it. He stood up and said this is not right. We are men and women and children and we walk this Earth as every man woman and child would. And he did it peacefully. With determination, with fierce heart and with reason. He changed America by walking with one foot in front of the other.
I agree with you there. If they fought as MLK did, or Gandhi, or Mandela, then they would probably have still lost as many people but they would have far more support from the rest of the world.
Ive not heard one uttering of heart from the whole of the middle east. I spit on them.
You've not talked to many people from the Middle East then. All they see is you spitting on them, along with many others.
Islamic *type* behavior
K.Snyder wrote: When people say "Americans" in reference to "Americans have supported terrorist organization across the globe", I consider them saying that I myself have supported terrorism, and to that I say kiss my @$$.
Oh dear, after all the fuss about brokeback mountain I thought that kind of display of affection was frowned upon in america.:-3
Joking aside, perhaps is you took more of an interest in what was done in your name in other countries you might be less gullible and trusting when someone tells you islamic extremists are going to destroy western civilisation. If you find it offensive that the US supports terrorist organisations throughout the world what have you done to protest and stop that kind of foreign policy in the past.
From the 911 commission report
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html
I assume as an american you have read it, I refer you to this bit where it points out that short term policies with little thought of the long term consequence are not a good idea.
That vision of the future should stress life over death: individual educational and economic opportunity. This vision includes widespread political participation
and contempt for indiscriminate violence.It includes respect for the rule of law,openness in discussing differences,and tolerance for opposing points of view.
Recommendation:Where Muslim governments, even those who are friends, do not respect these principles, the United States must stand for a better future. One of the lessons of the long Cold War was that short-term gains in cooperating with the most repressive and brutal governments were too often outweighed by long-term setbacks for America’s stature and interests.
(their bold type not mine) It's also interesting what they say about Israel.
or this one
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0923-01.htm
Out of that CIA-backed resistance emerged the Taliban, which today controls most of Afghanistan and the sprawling terrorist enterprise controlled by Osama bin Laden, whom the Taliban is believed to be harboring.
Equipment as crude as machine guns and as sophisticated as antiaircraft Stinger missiles are now believed to be in the hands of the Taliban regime's military, and quite possibly in the clutches of the heavily armed militias that surround Osama bin Laden.
If US forces undertake a ground operation, that US-supplied weaponry and training could cause US casualties.
Yes those very same islamic terrorists set on your destruction were once the heroic mujahadeen as featured in rambo 3. I hear they are going to make a rambo 4 when stallone goes back in to sort out the taliban starring Sylvestor Stallone where he goes into Kabul, Afghanistan and kills everyone because his kids were killed in the World Trade Center bombings. It seems they can't work out a feasible ending
posted by nomad
But they let it persist so they are just as guilty. The whole lot of them. Martin Luther King did it. He stood up and said this is not right. We are men and women and children and we walk this Earth as every man woman and child would.
You mention Martin luther king. What were all the white folks in america doing at the time? Turning a blind eye or what? Letting it persist so all were guilty?
Oh dear, after all the fuss about brokeback mountain I thought that kind of display of affection was frowned upon in america.:-3
Joking aside, perhaps is you took more of an interest in what was done in your name in other countries you might be less gullible and trusting when someone tells you islamic extremists are going to destroy western civilisation. If you find it offensive that the US supports terrorist organisations throughout the world what have you done to protest and stop that kind of foreign policy in the past.
From the 911 commission report
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html
I assume as an american you have read it, I refer you to this bit where it points out that short term policies with little thought of the long term consequence are not a good idea.
That vision of the future should stress life over death: individual educational and economic opportunity. This vision includes widespread political participation
and contempt for indiscriminate violence.It includes respect for the rule of law,openness in discussing differences,and tolerance for opposing points of view.
Recommendation:Where Muslim governments, even those who are friends, do not respect these principles, the United States must stand for a better future. One of the lessons of the long Cold War was that short-term gains in cooperating with the most repressive and brutal governments were too often outweighed by long-term setbacks for America’s stature and interests.
(their bold type not mine) It's also interesting what they say about Israel.
or this one
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0923-01.htm
Out of that CIA-backed resistance emerged the Taliban, which today controls most of Afghanistan and the sprawling terrorist enterprise controlled by Osama bin Laden, whom the Taliban is believed to be harboring.
Equipment as crude as machine guns and as sophisticated as antiaircraft Stinger missiles are now believed to be in the hands of the Taliban regime's military, and quite possibly in the clutches of the heavily armed militias that surround Osama bin Laden.
If US forces undertake a ground operation, that US-supplied weaponry and training could cause US casualties.
Yes those very same islamic terrorists set on your destruction were once the heroic mujahadeen as featured in rambo 3. I hear they are going to make a rambo 4 when stallone goes back in to sort out the taliban starring Sylvestor Stallone where he goes into Kabul, Afghanistan and kills everyone because his kids were killed in the World Trade Center bombings. It seems they can't work out a feasible ending
posted by nomad
But they let it persist so they are just as guilty. The whole lot of them. Martin Luther King did it. He stood up and said this is not right. We are men and women and children and we walk this Earth as every man woman and child would.
You mention Martin luther king. What were all the white folks in america doing at the time? Turning a blind eye or what? Letting it persist so all were guilty?
Islamic *type* behavior
Probably doing what all the white folks in England were doing when the slave trades were in full bloom and their armies were subjugating much of the planet. Some worked against it and others used it and found ways to justify themselves to the world.
Now...before you sputter...I believe to my bones that there are NO "innocent" nations! All governments have tried to impose themselves on others, if you look at history. The "blame game" isn't going to do a bit of good and you all know that.
"Payback" is a nasty emtion...an emotion behind many low points in our society (starting with O.J. Simpson and "reparations for slavery," etc.) It's pointless. And yet I've seen and heard comments from around the world about how we "deserve" this. I suppose the Spanish "deserved" it as well as the Dutch and the French and the Kenyans, etc, etc.
What's happening now is that a group of religious fundamentalists are attempting to commit war in the name of their religion. Nothing new there, either. I suspect more wars have been waged in the name of "my god's bigger than your god" than anything else.
Their methods make conventional efforts to stop them very difficult. The "political correctness...oh, golly, we can't single out anyone" concept is making it much easier for them to impose "terror" on us, because we are helping them.
Does anyone honestly believe that using the Ghandi/MLK solutions of non-violence will work against people like these? Those fine gentlemen (my heroes, too, by the way) would lose their heads in a video as quickly as anyone else--probably sooner, because they'd bring more publicity.)
Now...before you sputter...I believe to my bones that there are NO "innocent" nations! All governments have tried to impose themselves on others, if you look at history. The "blame game" isn't going to do a bit of good and you all know that.
"Payback" is a nasty emtion...an emotion behind many low points in our society (starting with O.J. Simpson and "reparations for slavery," etc.) It's pointless. And yet I've seen and heard comments from around the world about how we "deserve" this. I suppose the Spanish "deserved" it as well as the Dutch and the French and the Kenyans, etc, etc.
What's happening now is that a group of religious fundamentalists are attempting to commit war in the name of their religion. Nothing new there, either. I suspect more wars have been waged in the name of "my god's bigger than your god" than anything else.
Their methods make conventional efforts to stop them very difficult. The "political correctness...oh, golly, we can't single out anyone" concept is making it much easier for them to impose "terror" on us, because we are helping them.
Does anyone honestly believe that using the Ghandi/MLK solutions of non-violence will work against people like these? Those fine gentlemen (my heroes, too, by the way) would lose their heads in a video as quickly as anyone else--probably sooner, because they'd bring more publicity.)
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Islamic *type* behavior
posted by lulu2
Probably doing what all the white folks in England were doing when the slave trades were in full bloom and their armies were subjugating much of the planet. Some worked against it and others used it and found ways to justify themselves to the world.
Now...before you sputter...I believe to my bones that there are NO "innocent" nations! All governments have tried to impose themselves on others, if you look at history. The "blame game" isn't going to do a bit of good and you all know that.
ooh good one. Don't worry I'm not going to sputter it's sadly all too true, the scots weren't averse to making a bob or two either. The British empire is not something we pretend didn't happen.
What's happening now is that a group of religious fundamentalists are attempting to commit war in the name of their religion. Nothing new there, either. I suspect more wars have been waged in the name of "my god's bigger than your god" than anything else
It seems there are fanatics on all sides that want war and will tell lie and spin any story to get what they want.
Probably doing what all the white folks in England were doing when the slave trades were in full bloom and their armies were subjugating much of the planet. Some worked against it and others used it and found ways to justify themselves to the world.
Now...before you sputter...I believe to my bones that there are NO "innocent" nations! All governments have tried to impose themselves on others, if you look at history. The "blame game" isn't going to do a bit of good and you all know that.
ooh good one. Don't worry I'm not going to sputter it's sadly all too true, the scots weren't averse to making a bob or two either. The British empire is not something we pretend didn't happen.
What's happening now is that a group of religious fundamentalists are attempting to commit war in the name of their religion. Nothing new there, either. I suspect more wars have been waged in the name of "my god's bigger than your god" than anything else
It seems there are fanatics on all sides that want war and will tell lie and spin any story to get what they want.
Islamic *type* behavior
And there you have it, and well said, too.
BUT...at some point, Western civilization (or however else you want to call the targets of these fanatics) must recognize that, despite our good intentions and humane desires not to "single out/profile/offend"....we aren't going to keep these terrorists at bay.
They don't ADMIRE non-violence or democratic ideals or even well-meaning people who don't wish to offend. It's wonderful to attempt "the high road," but what's going to stop them isn't Ghandi...I'm terribly afraid it's GUNS!
Do I agree with Bush & his war-lust? NOOOOOO! He's bungled this so badly we've all lost ground. But beating our swords into plowshares is too little, too late. And if we in "the west" don't recognize we need a change of strategy, these loons will have us all back in the 14th century.
BUT...at some point, Western civilization (or however else you want to call the targets of these fanatics) must recognize that, despite our good intentions and humane desires not to "single out/profile/offend"....we aren't going to keep these terrorists at bay.
They don't ADMIRE non-violence or democratic ideals or even well-meaning people who don't wish to offend. It's wonderful to attempt "the high road," but what's going to stop them isn't Ghandi...I'm terribly afraid it's GUNS!
Do I agree with Bush & his war-lust? NOOOOOO! He's bungled this so badly we've all lost ground. But beating our swords into plowshares is too little, too late. And if we in "the west" don't recognize we need a change of strategy, these loons will have us all back in the 14th century.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Islamic *type* behavior
Originally Posted by Koan
I suspect you had already come to most of your conclusions a while ago
Nothing could be further from the truth. I have a very open mind about a great many things. I also have limits on tolerance concerning people smashing planes into things.
Quote:
Your conclusion is based on a whole portion of the world being weak of mind. The quality of your own ability to reason is now in question.
I was being facetious. Its a general statement accompanied by my hands being thrown up in the air.
Quote:
These are two separate things. Inability to reason for oneself does not mean that a person won't trust someone else to reason for them. That is what governments claim to be capable of doing, making vital decisions on behalf of their people. Many leaders and intellectuals have argued that the average person should leave political decisions up to those more qualified. The assigning of qualities such as "good" and "not so good" are entirely subjective. Who are you accusing of being unintelligent? An entire continent? On what information is this based? As to the "good" argument, while you might think that invading Iraq was "good" they might think otherwise.
Your telling me that Iraqi citizens trusted so damn insane to reason for them on their behalf ? Leaving decisions to those more qualified is a fine concept, elections are also a fine concept. Leaving decisions to tyrannical bloodthirsty despots is probably not whats good for the people of a nation if you get my drift.
Quote:
Too basic. You oversimplify.
This is an oversimplification of my tongue in cheek sarcasm. This isnt a debate. Im tired of hearing about more wars, better bombs, more dead children, more angst, more soldiers being sent overseas to untangle a clusterf*u*c*k of a region. Im tired of not understanding why killing eachother is always the first and last solution yet results never seem to come. Im really tired of the hatred. I can only speak for myself and I think Im right in saying that most of us dont hate Iranians, Iraqis, Lebanese or anyone from the region. I dont want to nuke anyone and I dont want to see anyone obliterated from the face of the earth. I want peace. Koan go ahead and tear that apart and put a nifty little intellectual spin on that but I dont care. What I think is right is for the ones that arent launching themselves strapped with explosives into grocery stores or nightclubs or just a group of guys waiting for work is to stand up and unite and put an end to it. They dont want us involved, great ! We dont want to be involved but they arent governing themselves in a way conducive to living peacefully.
Quote:
Yes. There is and are.
Havent seen it nor heard it. Im not getting this info.
Quote:
They are trying to not let it persist. They feel that Western foreign policy is keeping their future dim. They don't "let it persist", they are fighting back.
Oh bulls*h*i*t ! Pakistan is half involved. Whos fighting ?
Quote:
I agree with you there. If they fought as MLK did, or Gandhi, or Mandela, then they would probably have still lost as many people but they would have far more support from the rest of the world.
That would be worth dying for in my opinion.
And no I dont spend time talking with people from the region because I dont know any. Who does ?
I suspect you had already come to most of your conclusions a while ago
Nothing could be further from the truth. I have a very open mind about a great many things. I also have limits on tolerance concerning people smashing planes into things.
Quote:
Your conclusion is based on a whole portion of the world being weak of mind. The quality of your own ability to reason is now in question.
I was being facetious. Its a general statement accompanied by my hands being thrown up in the air.
Quote:
These are two separate things. Inability to reason for oneself does not mean that a person won't trust someone else to reason for them. That is what governments claim to be capable of doing, making vital decisions on behalf of their people. Many leaders and intellectuals have argued that the average person should leave political decisions up to those more qualified. The assigning of qualities such as "good" and "not so good" are entirely subjective. Who are you accusing of being unintelligent? An entire continent? On what information is this based? As to the "good" argument, while you might think that invading Iraq was "good" they might think otherwise.
Your telling me that Iraqi citizens trusted so damn insane to reason for them on their behalf ? Leaving decisions to those more qualified is a fine concept, elections are also a fine concept. Leaving decisions to tyrannical bloodthirsty despots is probably not whats good for the people of a nation if you get my drift.
Quote:
Too basic. You oversimplify.
This is an oversimplification of my tongue in cheek sarcasm. This isnt a debate. Im tired of hearing about more wars, better bombs, more dead children, more angst, more soldiers being sent overseas to untangle a clusterf*u*c*k of a region. Im tired of not understanding why killing eachother is always the first and last solution yet results never seem to come. Im really tired of the hatred. I can only speak for myself and I think Im right in saying that most of us dont hate Iranians, Iraqis, Lebanese or anyone from the region. I dont want to nuke anyone and I dont want to see anyone obliterated from the face of the earth. I want peace. Koan go ahead and tear that apart and put a nifty little intellectual spin on that but I dont care. What I think is right is for the ones that arent launching themselves strapped with explosives into grocery stores or nightclubs or just a group of guys waiting for work is to stand up and unite and put an end to it. They dont want us involved, great ! We dont want to be involved but they arent governing themselves in a way conducive to living peacefully.
Quote:
Yes. There is and are.
Havent seen it nor heard it. Im not getting this info.
Quote:
They are trying to not let it persist. They feel that Western foreign policy is keeping their future dim. They don't "let it persist", they are fighting back.
Oh bulls*h*i*t ! Pakistan is half involved. Whos fighting ?
Quote:
I agree with you there. If they fought as MLK did, or Gandhi, or Mandela, then they would probably have still lost as many people but they would have far more support from the rest of the world.
That would be worth dying for in my opinion.
And no I dont spend time talking with people from the region because I dont know any. Who does ?
I AM AWESOME MAN
Islamic *type* behavior
Scrat wrote: That's the best you can do?
Best I could do?
No,
I rather feel its a waiste of time to try and explain to you what the majority of us American citizens or anyone else you care to blame just to appear like what you say in everything you say is more important than that you choose to oppose feel.
First of all who gives you the right to judge me and my morale standards to meet what it is you feel is wrong with the situation in question?
Scrat wrote:
Like it or not the American people do support terrorism and we also support genocides and the subjugation of entire populations. We support it because it suits us to ignore it for the sake of convenience.
Not many Americans give a silly assed damn as long as they have gas for their suburban assault vehicles and have 5000 sq ft homes to live in.
As I have said before speak for yourself, being "American".
You seem to paint the portrait of America to be mindless, thoughtless killers, hell bent on destroying Earth,..
whereas I see America as people working 6 days a week, coming home on their day off to teach their child how to play baseball, and frequently inviting neighbors over for a BBQ..
Care to take a vote for the sake of perception?
Best I could do?
No,
I rather feel its a waiste of time to try and explain to you what the majority of us American citizens or anyone else you care to blame just to appear like what you say in everything you say is more important than that you choose to oppose feel.
First of all who gives you the right to judge me and my morale standards to meet what it is you feel is wrong with the situation in question?
Scrat wrote:
Like it or not the American people do support terrorism and we also support genocides and the subjugation of entire populations. We support it because it suits us to ignore it for the sake of convenience.
Not many Americans give a silly assed damn as long as they have gas for their suburban assault vehicles and have 5000 sq ft homes to live in.
As I have said before speak for yourself, being "American".
You seem to paint the portrait of America to be mindless, thoughtless killers, hell bent on destroying Earth,..
whereas I see America as people working 6 days a week, coming home on their day off to teach their child how to play baseball, and frequently inviting neighbors over for a BBQ..
Care to take a vote for the sake of perception?
Islamic *type* behavior
gmc wrote: Oh dear, after all the fuss about brokeback mountain I thought that kind of display of affection was frowned upon in america.:-3
Joking aside, perhaps is you took more of an interest in what was done in your name in other countries you might be less gullible and trusting when someone tells you islamic extremists are going to destroy western civilisation.
Since when have i said i was for everything Bush and his administration were doing?
I would like you to conjure up anything i have said on this forum that gave you the assumption that i was trusting of any aggression towards any peoples being carried out not in my control.
gmc wrote:
If you find it offensive that the US supports terrorist organisations throughout the world what have you done to protest and stop that kind of foreign policy in the past.
You cant protest that in which you are uninformed of until after such an event, but i can assure you, if America was involved in terrorist aggression in the intention of murdering innocent people, I would damn sure protest it.
Joking aside, perhaps is you took more of an interest in what was done in your name in other countries you might be less gullible and trusting when someone tells you islamic extremists are going to destroy western civilisation.
Since when have i said i was for everything Bush and his administration were doing?
I would like you to conjure up anything i have said on this forum that gave you the assumption that i was trusting of any aggression towards any peoples being carried out not in my control.
gmc wrote:
If you find it offensive that the US supports terrorist organisations throughout the world what have you done to protest and stop that kind of foreign policy in the past.
You cant protest that in which you are uninformed of until after such an event, but i can assure you, if America was involved in terrorist aggression in the intention of murdering innocent people, I would damn sure protest it.
Islamic *type* behavior
Lulu2 wrote: And there you have it, and well said, too.
BUT...at some point, Western civilization (or however else you want to call the targets of these fanatics) must recognize that, despite our good intentions and humane desires not to "single out/profile/offend"....we aren't going to keep these terrorists at bay.
They don't ADMIRE non-violence or democratic ideals or even well-meaning people who don't wish to offend. It's wonderful to attempt "the high road," but what's going to stop them isn't Ghandi...I'm terribly afraid it's GUNS!
Do I agree with Bush & his war-lust? NOOOOOO! He's bungled this so badly we've all lost ground. But beating our swords into plowshares is too little, too late. And if we in "the west" don't recognize we need a change of strategy, these loons will have us all back in the 14th century.
The problem is the west preach the high road then acts to protect it's "own" interests regardless of the consequences for anyone else. Hardly enlightened self interest imo. Actually the eec is just as guilty as the US.
There is hardly a need to beat ploughshares in to swords, we could oblitersate the middle east with what we have already. Change of strategy yes, but warfare is not the answer.
posted by k snyder
Since when have i said i was for everything Bush and his administration were doing?
I would like you to conjure up anything i have said on this forum that gave you the assumption that i was trusting of any aggression towards any peoples being carried out not in my control.
You haven't. I'm not trying to antagonise you.
In this counry we and in the EEC we have big arguements about ethical foreign policy and the hypocrasy inherent in the reality of what is done in our name for short term gain with little regard for the future. Nothing much changes but you will find many who are aware of such issues and feel stringly about it. TB has very little support for what he is doing maybe we will get some support for electoral reform but it suits labour and the tories to keep things the way they are as it is the only way they get into power.
I get the impression many americans are completely oblivious to what goes on elsewhere and can't believe that their govt has actually done such things in their name and supported terrorist organisations choosing to disbelief it as left wing propoganda despite all the evidence that they have. You have public information laws all you have to do is look. Buying in to this demonisation of entire peoples is simplistic and like something from the middle ages.
posted by k. snyder
whereas I see America as people working 6 days a week, coming home on their day off to teach their child how to play baseball, and frequently inviting neighbors over for a BBQ..
People all round the world are just the same, apart from the basketball and the BBQ. Actually I quite like BBQ's so long as I don't have to cook and there's no chicken involved or food poisoning through eating half cooked food, and there's no midges around.
BUT...at some point, Western civilization (or however else you want to call the targets of these fanatics) must recognize that, despite our good intentions and humane desires not to "single out/profile/offend"....we aren't going to keep these terrorists at bay.
They don't ADMIRE non-violence or democratic ideals or even well-meaning people who don't wish to offend. It's wonderful to attempt "the high road," but what's going to stop them isn't Ghandi...I'm terribly afraid it's GUNS!
Do I agree with Bush & his war-lust? NOOOOOO! He's bungled this so badly we've all lost ground. But beating our swords into plowshares is too little, too late. And if we in "the west" don't recognize we need a change of strategy, these loons will have us all back in the 14th century.
The problem is the west preach the high road then acts to protect it's "own" interests regardless of the consequences for anyone else. Hardly enlightened self interest imo. Actually the eec is just as guilty as the US.
There is hardly a need to beat ploughshares in to swords, we could oblitersate the middle east with what we have already. Change of strategy yes, but warfare is not the answer.
posted by k snyder
Since when have i said i was for everything Bush and his administration were doing?
I would like you to conjure up anything i have said on this forum that gave you the assumption that i was trusting of any aggression towards any peoples being carried out not in my control.
You haven't. I'm not trying to antagonise you.
In this counry we and in the EEC we have big arguements about ethical foreign policy and the hypocrasy inherent in the reality of what is done in our name for short term gain with little regard for the future. Nothing much changes but you will find many who are aware of such issues and feel stringly about it. TB has very little support for what he is doing maybe we will get some support for electoral reform but it suits labour and the tories to keep things the way they are as it is the only way they get into power.
I get the impression many americans are completely oblivious to what goes on elsewhere and can't believe that their govt has actually done such things in their name and supported terrorist organisations choosing to disbelief it as left wing propoganda despite all the evidence that they have. You have public information laws all you have to do is look. Buying in to this demonisation of entire peoples is simplistic and like something from the middle ages.
posted by k. snyder
whereas I see America as people working 6 days a week, coming home on their day off to teach their child how to play baseball, and frequently inviting neighbors over for a BBQ..
People all round the world are just the same, apart from the basketball and the BBQ. Actually I quite like BBQ's so long as I don't have to cook and there's no chicken involved or food poisoning through eating half cooked food, and there's no midges around.
Islamic *type* behavior
Lulu2 wrote: And there you have it, and well said, too.
BUT...at some point, Western civilization (or however else you want to call the targets of these fanatics) must recognize that, despite our good intentions and humane desires not to "single out/profile/offend"....we aren't going to keep these terrorists at bay.
They don't ADMIRE non-violence or democratic ideals or even well-meaning people who don't wish to offend. It's wonderful to attempt "the high road," but what's going to stop them isn't Ghandi...I'm terribly afraid it's GUNS!
Do I agree with Bush & his war-lust? NOOOOOO! He's bungled this so badly we've all lost ground. But beating our swords into plowshares is too little, too late. And if we in "the west" don't recognize we need a change of strategy, these loons will have us all back in the 14th century.
The problem is the west preach the high road then acts to protect it's "own" interests regardless of the consequences for anyone else. Hardly enlightened self interest imo. Actually the eec is just as guilty as the US.
There is hardly a need to beat ploughshares in to swords, we could oblitersate the middle east with what we have already. Change of strategy yes, but warfare is not the answer. The idea that al queda or any islamic fundamentalist has any chance of defeating or overthrowing western democracy is ludicrous to say the least. freedom is destroyed by those within a society I would worry more about politicians who say we don't need as much freedom and they want to spy on us for our own security far more than I do about terrorists. Who is to determine what the next threat to society will be? elect politicians we must. trusting them is the act of a fool.
posted by k snyder
Since when have i said i was for everything Bush and his administration were doing?
I would like you to conjure up anything i have said on this forum that gave you the assumption that i was trusting of any aggression towards any peoples being carried out not in my control.
You haven't. I'm not trying to antagonise you.
In this counry we and in the EEC we have big arguements about ethical foreign policy and the hypocrasy inherent in the reality of what is done in our name for short term gain with little regard for the future. Nothing much changes but you will find many who are aware of such issues and feel stringly about it. TB has very little support for what he is doing maybe we will get some support for electoral reform but it suits labour and the tories to keep things the way they are as it is the only way they get into power.
I get the impression many americans are completely oblivious to what goes on elsewhere and can't believe that their govt has actually done such things in their name and supported terrorist organisations choosing to disbelief it as left wing propoganda despite all the evidence that they have. You have public information laws all you have to do is look. Buying in to this demonisation of entire peoples is simplistic and like something from the middle ages.
posted by k. snyder
whereas I see America as people working 6 days a week, coming home on their day off to teach their child how to play baseball, and frequently inviting neighbors over for a BBQ..
People all round the world are just the same, apart from the basketball and the BBQ. Actually I quite like BBQ's so long as I don't have to cook and there's no chicken involved or food poisoning through eating half cooked food, and there's no midges around.
BUT...at some point, Western civilization (or however else you want to call the targets of these fanatics) must recognize that, despite our good intentions and humane desires not to "single out/profile/offend"....we aren't going to keep these terrorists at bay.
They don't ADMIRE non-violence or democratic ideals or even well-meaning people who don't wish to offend. It's wonderful to attempt "the high road," but what's going to stop them isn't Ghandi...I'm terribly afraid it's GUNS!
Do I agree with Bush & his war-lust? NOOOOOO! He's bungled this so badly we've all lost ground. But beating our swords into plowshares is too little, too late. And if we in "the west" don't recognize we need a change of strategy, these loons will have us all back in the 14th century.
The problem is the west preach the high road then acts to protect it's "own" interests regardless of the consequences for anyone else. Hardly enlightened self interest imo. Actually the eec is just as guilty as the US.
There is hardly a need to beat ploughshares in to swords, we could oblitersate the middle east with what we have already. Change of strategy yes, but warfare is not the answer. The idea that al queda or any islamic fundamentalist has any chance of defeating or overthrowing western democracy is ludicrous to say the least. freedom is destroyed by those within a society I would worry more about politicians who say we don't need as much freedom and they want to spy on us for our own security far more than I do about terrorists. Who is to determine what the next threat to society will be? elect politicians we must. trusting them is the act of a fool.
posted by k snyder
Since when have i said i was for everything Bush and his administration were doing?
I would like you to conjure up anything i have said on this forum that gave you the assumption that i was trusting of any aggression towards any peoples being carried out not in my control.
You haven't. I'm not trying to antagonise you.
In this counry we and in the EEC we have big arguements about ethical foreign policy and the hypocrasy inherent in the reality of what is done in our name for short term gain with little regard for the future. Nothing much changes but you will find many who are aware of such issues and feel stringly about it. TB has very little support for what he is doing maybe we will get some support for electoral reform but it suits labour and the tories to keep things the way they are as it is the only way they get into power.
I get the impression many americans are completely oblivious to what goes on elsewhere and can't believe that their govt has actually done such things in their name and supported terrorist organisations choosing to disbelief it as left wing propoganda despite all the evidence that they have. You have public information laws all you have to do is look. Buying in to this demonisation of entire peoples is simplistic and like something from the middle ages.
posted by k. snyder
whereas I see America as people working 6 days a week, coming home on their day off to teach their child how to play baseball, and frequently inviting neighbors over for a BBQ..
People all round the world are just the same, apart from the basketball and the BBQ. Actually I quite like BBQ's so long as I don't have to cook and there's no chicken involved or food poisoning through eating half cooked food, and there's no midges around.
Islamic *type* behavior
gmc wrote:
People all round the world are just the same, apart from the basketball and the BBQ. Actually I quite like BBQ's so long as I don't have to cook and there's no chicken involved or food poisoning through eating half cooked food, and there's no midges around.
Good..
Then what are we all fighting for?
People all round the world are just the same, apart from the basketball and the BBQ. Actually I quite like BBQ's so long as I don't have to cook and there's no chicken involved or food poisoning through eating half cooked food, and there's no midges around.
Good..
Then what are we all fighting for?
-
Accountable
- Posts: 24818
- Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 8:33 am
Islamic *type* behavior
(CHORUS)
And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for
don't ask me I don't give a damn, next stop is Viet Nam
And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates
ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Feel Like I'm Fixing To Die Rag (Next Stop Vietnam)
Country Joe & the Fish
Come on all of you big strong men
Uncle Sam needs your help again
he's got himself in a terrible jam
way down yonder in Viet Nam so
put down your books and pick up a gun we're
gonna have a whole lotta fun
(CHORUS)
And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for
don't ask me I don't give a damn, next stop is Viet Nam
And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates
ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die
Come on generals, let's move fast
your big chance has come at last
now you can go out and get those reds
cos the only good commie is the one that's dead and
you know that peace can only be won when we've
blown 'em all to kingdom come
(CHORUS)
Come on wall street don't be slow
why man this war is a go-go
there's plenty good money to be made by
supplying the army with the tools of its trade
let's hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
they drop it on the Viet Cong
(CHORUS)
Come on mothers throughout the land
pack your boys off to Viet Nam
come on fathers don't hesitate
send your sons off before it's too late
and you can be the first ones on your block
to have your boy come home in a box
And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for
don't ask me I don't give a damn, next stop is Viet Nam
And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates
ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Feel Like I'm Fixing To Die Rag (Next Stop Vietnam)
Country Joe & the Fish
Come on all of you big strong men
Uncle Sam needs your help again
he's got himself in a terrible jam
way down yonder in Viet Nam so
put down your books and pick up a gun we're
gonna have a whole lotta fun
(CHORUS)
And it's one, two, three, what are we fighting for
don't ask me I don't give a damn, next stop is Viet Nam
And it's five, six, seven, open up the pearly gates
ain't no time to wonder why, whoopee we're all gonna die
Come on generals, let's move fast
your big chance has come at last
now you can go out and get those reds
cos the only good commie is the one that's dead and
you know that peace can only be won when we've
blown 'em all to kingdom come
(CHORUS)
Come on wall street don't be slow
why man this war is a go-go
there's plenty good money to be made by
supplying the army with the tools of its trade
let's hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
they drop it on the Viet Cong
(CHORUS)
Come on mothers throughout the land
pack your boys off to Viet Nam
come on fathers don't hesitate
send your sons off before it's too late
and you can be the first ones on your block
to have your boy come home in a box
Islamic *type* behavior
Nomad, you admitted that your OP was intended to be offensive, and now facetious. My main point to you is that your OP actively contributes to the hatred between the entire Arab world and the "West". One of the ways to help stop terrorism is to stop inciting it, on both sides.
Islamic *type* behavior
onsekiz wrote: turkish islam is practically different from arabic islam. it is way more moderate than it. it is truly a religion of peace.
and there are people, there is a movement, which try to spread turkish understanding of islam. i've stayed at their houses, know the structure of the movement. they have the 3rd best selling newspaper in turkey. believe me they are very powerfull and developing day by day, they have already 3 newspapers and 2 tv channels only in tr.
interfaith dialogue
please read,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen%27s_movement (they have enemies, so article can be vandalised)
And is it a coincidence that Turkey manages to be productive and a healthy addition to the region ? Its one of the few stable countries that can be counted on to not go nutso. Lets be brothers.
and there are people, there is a movement, which try to spread turkish understanding of islam. i've stayed at their houses, know the structure of the movement. they have the 3rd best selling newspaper in turkey. believe me they are very powerfull and developing day by day, they have already 3 newspapers and 2 tv channels only in tr.
interfaith dialogue
please read,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BClen%27s_movement (they have enemies, so article can be vandalised)
And is it a coincidence that Turkey manages to be productive and a healthy addition to the region ? Its one of the few stable countries that can be counted on to not go nutso. Lets be brothers.
I AM AWESOME MAN
Islamic *type* behavior
koan wrote: Nomad, you admitted that your OP was intended to be offensive, and now facetious. My main point to you is that your OP actively contributes to the hatred between the entire Arab world and the "West". One of the ways to help stop terrorism is to stop inciting it, on both sides.
In a nutshell they need to take ownership of their future. Just to over simplify again.
If they allow terrorists to inhabit their lands and the terrorists wreak havoc and destruction throughout the world, killing and maiming then they have some responsibility in these matters. So do we. To put an end to it.
In a nutshell they need to take ownership of their future. Just to over simplify again.
If they allow terrorists to inhabit their lands and the terrorists wreak havoc and destruction throughout the world, killing and maiming then they have some responsibility in these matters. So do we. To put an end to it.
I AM AWESOME MAN
Islamic *type* behavior
Nomad wrote: And is it a coincidence that Turkey manages to be productive and a healthy addition to the region ? Its one of the few stable countries that can be counted on to not go nutso. Lets be brothers.
You consider Turkey to be exemplary?
Are you aware of their history? Do you support genocide? Do you know their human rights record?
Maybe you think genocide works when trying to create a "stable" environment?
You consider Turkey to be exemplary?
Are you aware of their history? Do you support genocide? Do you know their human rights record?
Maybe you think genocide works when trying to create a "stable" environment?
Islamic *type* behavior
Nomad wrote: In a nutshell they need to take ownership of their future. Just to over simplify again.
If they allow terrorists to inhabit their lands and the terrorists wreak havoc and destruction throughout the world, killing and maiming then they have some responsibility in these matters. So do we. To put an end to it.
"They" are. They are trying to destroy the people who they perceive are oppressing them.
If they allow terrorists to inhabit their lands and the terrorists wreak havoc and destruction throughout the world, killing and maiming then they have some responsibility in these matters. So do we. To put an end to it.
"They" are. They are trying to destroy the people who they perceive are oppressing them.
Islamic *type* behavior
koan wrote: You consider Turkey to be exemplary?
Are you aware of their history? Do you support genocide? Do you know their human rights record?
Maybe you think genocide works when trying to create a "stable" environment?
We all have history koan. The US massacred an entire civilization.
Are you aware of their history? Do you support genocide? Do you know their human rights record?
Maybe you think genocide works when trying to create a "stable" environment?
We all have history koan. The US massacred an entire civilization.
I AM AWESOME MAN
Islamic *type* behavior
koan wrote: "They" are. They are trying to destroy the people who they perceive are oppressing them.
In the big picture wouldnt you agree that its really the terrorists oppressing them ? Or can you twist their methods of suicide bombing into liberation somehow ?
In the big picture wouldnt you agree that its really the terrorists oppressing them ? Or can you twist their methods of suicide bombing into liberation somehow ?
I AM AWESOME MAN
Islamic *type* behavior
Nomad wrote: In the big picture wouldnt you agree that its really the terrorists oppressing them ? Or can you twist their methods of suicide bombing into liberation somehow ?
I've suggested many times that they would prefer to strap bombs to planes but they don't have any.
I've suggested many times that they would prefer to strap bombs to planes but they don't have any.
Islamic *type* behavior
Good question.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Islamic *type* behavior
koan wrote: I've suggested many times that they would prefer to strap bombs to planes but they don't have any.
Ahhh now theres the big picture ! :-6
Ahhh now theres the big picture ! :-6
I AM AWESOME MAN
Islamic *type* behavior
OOOOPS....my "good question" comment related to THIS statement:
"In the big picture wouldnt you agree that its really the terrorists oppressing them ? Or can you twist their methods of suicide bombing into liberation somehow ?"
"In the big picture wouldnt you agree that its really the terrorists oppressing them ? Or can you twist their methods of suicide bombing into liberation somehow ?"
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Islamic *type* behavior
I believe our definitions of "terrorists" do not agree. I believe the terrorists are fighting terrorists but we both mean different things when we say it. If the Arab states could defend themselves in a regular way they would.
Islamic *type* behavior
koan wrote: I believe our definitions of "terrorists" do not agree. I believe the terrorists are fighting terrorists but we both mean different things when we say it. If the Arab states could defend themselves in a regular way they would.
You mean like using intelligence, infiltrating the sources rounding up the perpetrators arresting them then removing then from society ? They cant do that ? Why ?
You mean like using intelligence, infiltrating the sources rounding up the perpetrators arresting them then removing then from society ? They cant do that ? Why ?
I AM AWESOME MAN
Islamic *type* behavior
Koan, I understand that you don't want to participate in violence. How would you propose the world deal with people like Osama Bin Laden and the multiple terrorist cells around the globe?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Islamic *type* behavior
Lulu2 wrote: Koan, I understand that you don't want to participate in violence. How would you propose the world deal with people like Osama Bin Laden and the multiple terrorist cells around the globe?
As better minds than mine have pointed out to no avail, the first thing to do is stop interfering with other people's countries. If you don't like bombs, stop dropping them on other people. If you don't want to be attacked by other armies (be them state or guerilla) stop inciting them.
As better minds than mine have pointed out to no avail, the first thing to do is stop interfering with other people's countries. If you don't like bombs, stop dropping them on other people. If you don't want to be attacked by other armies (be them state or guerilla) stop inciting them.
Islamic *type* behavior
I'm confused...which country was the U.S. bombing when Osama Bin Laden hit the WTC?
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
Islamic *type* behavior
koan wrote: As better minds than mine have pointed out to no avail, the first thing to do is stop interfering with other people's countries. If you don't like bombs, stop dropping them on other people. If you don't want to be attacked by other armies (be them state or guerilla) stop inciting them.
Yes, if only the Islamofascists would heed your warning.
Yes, if only the Islamofascists would heed your warning.
-
Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
Islamic *type* behavior
koan wrote: If the Arab states could defend themselves in a regular way they would.
They have armies. But if Iran and Iraq can indirectly attack its enemies via terrorism and deny all culpability in said attacks as opposed to facing military retaliation for direct attacks don't you think they would. And they do.
They have armies. But if Iran and Iraq can indirectly attack its enemies via terrorism and deny all culpability in said attacks as opposed to facing military retaliation for direct attacks don't you think they would. And they do.
-
Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
Islamic *type* behavior
koan said Arab governments would defend themselves via convetional methods if they could. I'm saying they can but they don't.
Islamic *type* behavior
Scrat wrote: The WTC bombing was simply another strike in a prolonged war that is being fought in the eyes of Osama Bin Forgotten and company to rid the Islamic world of western influence/meddling.
The US has done many things in south central Asia that could bring about such things.
I agree. We get involved in things we have no business getting invilved in. We have an over zealous president with a stupid smirky grin and questionable brain matter. Its not exactly a fine line though, WW II was the right thing, how many Sadaams does it take to get involved though ? Granted the premise under which we entered Iraq was apparently false. Did we have the right to enter Afghanistan in search of a deadly mastermind ? Should we keep looking and pressuring Pakistan ? Or do we give up and go home now ?
Whats the line ? Where do you start and where do you stop getting involved ?
The US has done many things in south central Asia that could bring about such things.
I agree. We get involved in things we have no business getting invilved in. We have an over zealous president with a stupid smirky grin and questionable brain matter. Its not exactly a fine line though, WW II was the right thing, how many Sadaams does it take to get involved though ? Granted the premise under which we entered Iraq was apparently false. Did we have the right to enter Afghanistan in search of a deadly mastermind ? Should we keep looking and pressuring Pakistan ? Or do we give up and go home now ?
Whats the line ? Where do you start and where do you stop getting involved ?
I AM AWESOME MAN
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RedGlitter
- Posts: 15777
- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
Islamic *type* behavior
We have an over zealous president with a stupid smirky grin and questionable brain matter.
:wah:
:wah:
Islamic *type* behavior
RedGlitter wrote: We have an over zealous president with a stupid smirky grin and questionable brain matter.
:wah:
I rest my case.
:wah:
I rest my case.
I AM AWESOME MAN