Islamic *type* behavior

[Nomad]

Ive come to a conclusion today on terrorism.

It is, it exists and thrives because that particular portion of the world is weak of mind. The inability to reason for ones self indicates a lack of intelligence and an inability to understand and to differentiate between fundamental ideas like what is good, and what is not so good.

Debate and self involvement=good

Killing Jews and Americans and teaching your children the same=bad

Pretty basic stuff really.

Of the millions upon millions of Islamic citizens is there not one among them that is willing and able to stand up and say "hey this might not be working" ? Not one leader in the whole bunch ?

Its a back asswards civilization with no real hope for a bright future. This crowd is a lost cause. Im not implying theyre all terrorists, of course not. But they let it persist so they are just as guilty. The whole lot of them. Martin Luther King did it. He stood up and said this is not right. We are men and women and children and we walk this Earth as every man woman and child would. And he did it peacefully. With determination, with fierce heart and with reason. He changed America by walking with one foot in front of the other.

Ive not heard one uttering of heart from the whole of the middle east. I spit on them.

[Accountable]

Don't give up hope, Nomad. MLK didn't emerge for more than a hundred years after our civil war. Ghandi took even longer.

[RedGlitter]

Nomad wrote:

Of the millions upon millions of Islamic citizens is there not one among them that is willing and able to stand up and say "hey this might not be working" ? Not one leader in the whole bunch ?




I agree. I often wonder the same thing when I think about the Holocaust. How the heck did that happen? Did no one come forth and call out Hitler and his regime?! Did no one fight against this heinous event?

[Lulu2]

I've given this one some thought and (bear with me here) I think a HUGE amount of it has to do with sex.

Ever been to a Muslim country? Women are totally off-limits to young men. There is NO SUCH THING as dating (as we know it) or pre-marital sex or even group mingling of young people.

Add in Nomad's reasoning about frustration, envy, resentment and lack of education....factor the "72 virgins in paradise" and you create a culture of death!

That's what it is, you know....a culture of death. Life means nothing...it's all about death...death to the infidel and death for the martyrs.

[Lulu2]

Nobody said that Muslims have "a lock" on general nuttiness or a campaign against sex, etc. There are loony fundamentalists in all relgions, of course. This excuses nothing....

[Lulu2]

Diuretic, you're singing my song!

[Lulu2]

It's NOT "bull!" Nomad is talking about TERRORISTS. Nobody here has insulted the peaceful Muslims! Are you suggesting that nobody can cast a stone at criminals because some people are law-abiding?

[theia]

flopstock wrote:



They are men and women and children and they walk this Earth as every man woman and child would. And they do it peacefully. With determination, with fierce heart and with reason. They strive for change by walking with one foot in front of the other.



You would have them leap tall buildings? Myself, I see hope because of those who chose NOT to fly a plane into those buildings, but rather chose to work alongside other rescue workers and medical staff in hopes of saving one victim... but we forget about that, after time.



We forget all of those who do step up and say 'this thing was wrong and without justification'... when a terrorist act occurs.. we remember the clips on the news of those who feel we had it coming to us. But we don't remember them in a specific sense, only that they are one of 'them'. And we determine that they are all alike.



While the vast majority are probably living their lives without 'our destruction' as the focal point of those lives. And they are most likely dreaming of a future for their children, just like I dream of one for mine.




This is a beautiful post, Flop, one of optimism and hope. Thank you :-6

[Lulu2]

Yes, hope and optimism are lovely qualities....but not particularly helpful when one's in a war! And make no mistake....western civilization IS in a war with fundamentalist Islamic terrorists!

This thread is about terrorists--you know them--the ones who've been attacking us for at least 20 years!

Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;

* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;

* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;

* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;

* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;

* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;

* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;

* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;

* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;

* New York World Trade Center 2001;

* Pentagon 2001.

And while it's lovely to discuss the predominantly peaceful Muslim population, we can't forget that much of Nazi Germany was Christian at the time of death camps and massive genocides against Gypsies, homosexuals, Jews and other "infidels."

So, let's be "politically incorrect" and zero in on Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but they kill anyone else in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else.

The point here is that just as the "peaceful" Germans were of no protection to anyone in the way of the Nazis, no matter how many "peaceful" Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels."

I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

Equally, I will never be "politically correct" and silent about terrorists in the Muslim faith.

Pay attention, people! LIKE IT OR NOT, WE ARE AT WAR!

[gmc]

RedGlitter wrote: I agree. I often wonder the same thing when I think about the Holocaust. How the heck did that happen? Did no one come forth and call out Hitler and his regime?! Did no one fight against this heinous event?


Many did but they were shouted down as unpatriotic and supporting communism. One of the first things he did when he got the chance was introduce arbitrary arrest and imprisonment without trial, locking up his political opponents first and those who spoke out against him creating a atmosphere of hysteria and fear and playing on the patriotism and feeling of grievance shared by many. The jews were a convenient scapegoat but he didn't start with them first.

posted by lulu

I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

Equally, I will never be "politically correct" and silent about terrorists in the Muslim faith.

Pay attention, people! LIKE IT OR NOT, WE ARE AT WAR!


It's not a war that will be won by conventional armies and invading the country that attacked you or even one that didn't. All that does is gain terrorists more support. Osama or any fundamentalist are no Hitlers in the making, any comparison is ludicrous. If they attack western democracy he wins when we are conned in to changing the very thing he finds so appalling.

[Lulu2]

"Many did but they were shouted down as unpatriotic and supporting communism"

AND...I'll bet many were labeled with whatever the contemporary equivalent of "politically incorrect" might've been!

And THAT effectively shut them up...you betcha!

[theia]

Lulu, I don't believe it is being "politically correct" to focus in on hope and optimism and the good that people do, in an extremely difficult and destructive time. It isn't a denial of what is going on, but an assertion of the good that still exists.

[gmc]

Lulu2 wrote: "Many did but they were shouted down as unpatriotic and supporting communism"

AND...I'll bet many were labeled with whatever the contemporary equivalent of "politically incorrect" might've been!

And THAT effectively shut them up...you betcha!


No they were shouted down as being unpatriotic and supporting communism, many were imprisoned without trial, By the time they were released hitler had a tight grip.

It seems in america those who oppose the war in iraq are shouted down as being unpatriotic, supporting terrorists and criticised for not supporting the troops. Hardly a rational approach to debate. Similar tactic different time.

[Bill Sikes]

Lulu2 wrote: It's NOT "bull!" Nomad is talking about TERRORISTS. Nobody here has insulted the peaceful Muslims!


Rubbish. re-read the original post. It's pretty insulting to many nations as well

as one general type of religion.

[K.Snyder]

Pinky wrote:

Lulu, I also agree with your theory about sex - people are afraid of it!

Especially the kind of power that it gives women, in particular.


Hmmm

I would like to see this theory in action....

go on...

fullfill your sick pleasures!

Have your way with me if you must....

......

wait,

where you going?

[K.Snyder]

Pinky wrote: Me? I'm still here mate!

Well, if you insist K...you're a very bad boy. Go to my room!:sneaky:


The question was in reference to the scenario...

But none the less,

I look on surprisingly yet enthusiastically delighted.

......

[Bez]

I guess Nomad started this thread to generate a meaningful discussion.

There are so many issues here that's it is hard to know where to start....greed (oil), religion, culture, history, perceptions, beliefs, personalties, philosophies, hatred, intolerance, injustice, madmen, moderates...etc, etc... all part of a great big jigsaw that has yet to be put together.

IMO, the only way to resolve the conflicts is to talk and to reslove the underlying issues...... however, it does seem that there are fanatics driven by their mis-guided beliefs who hold human life 'cheap' and want a 'bloodbath'.....how do we deal with these people ????

Why aren't people rising up against the fanatics.....fear, apathy, 'not my problem syndrome' ????? or just basically trying to eek out a living and look after their own .

I am full of HOPE for the human race and maybe it will take a 'natural disaster' to bring the world together.....so I just keep hoping ...

[Hugh Janus]

Pardon me if I play the devils advocate here.

Americans, banging the drum and declaring "war on terrorism."

However, it seems that they have forgot about their own "funding" of terrorism. I am of course, speaking about NORAID. What did they think that their contributions were funding?

Surely not bombs and bullets, for the IRA to use against the UK? :yh_devil

[K.Snyder]

Isnt numerous other countries involved in the "War on Terrorism", or am I mistaken about that?

[K.Snyder]

Diuretic wrote: Don't get upset, by "Americans" I understand it to mean "the Bush Administration" supported by those lily-livered pussies in Congress of course.


When people say "Americans" in reference to "Americans have supported terrorist organization across the globe", I consider them saying that I myself have supported terrorism, and to that I say kiss my @$$.

[CheshireCat]

I think that the Muslim terrorists are much like the KKK or Skin Heads. They are just blind with hate for anything that stands against them. It's the hate that is so dangerous. I don't know how to battle that degree of hate, I can't even comprehend it.

[Nomad]

Bill Sikes wrote: Rubbish. re-read the original post. It's pretty insulting to many nations as well

as one general type of religion.




Its meant to be an insult. So what ?

Granted I dont live in Palestine and I dont know what its like to be Iranian. One thing I do know is that I can see throngs of people tainting the next generation with shouts of death. I see our children vs their children fighting the same war.

What prompted me to voice this was Lebanons unwillingness to sieze back their country. If it were to happen now is the time. But they remain content as puppets for other regimes to soil their land and perpetuate their crimes. Namely Iran and Syria.

It simply blows my mind that amongst the millions not a scholar can be found willing to act with reason and not bloodshed. It occured to me that the entire civilization is living in some God forsaken stone age. There are those that bastardize their holy book with chants of death and bloodshed and they have taken a so Ive been led to believe peaceful and loving religion and wiped their asses with the pages.

And yet the people if not follow, say nothing. That in itself is a crime. Just as in the holocaust. If no one stands and says enough, they too participate in terrorism.

Theres a movement in the middle east, theyre organizing, theyre prepared. Lebanon will one day no longer be a country of Lebanese. Why ? Because they did nothing. They were prospering, now they live in a country of tumbled buildings. Because they did nothing.

Thats my whole point. If sacrificing ones life other than for family, this would be as noble a cause as any.

To let this happen because of fear is sickening. Their lives have been dedicated to making their childrens lives worse if not unliveable.

I dont for one second think they should be more like us. Im not waving a flag here. Im talking about making the world better for the next generation by saying enough. Why will no one stand and say enough ?

Im also not stupid enough to think other than most of Islam is loving. That they want the same things we all want. I certainly dont think they enjoy war. I just think they need someone to lead them out of their pens. Until their silence ends nothing will change ever. I take that back, more will die. Until they say enough I liken them to mindless sheep.

[Adam Zapple]

Scrat wrote:

If we were half of what we think ourselves to be this never would have happened.


First of all, that's delusional. No way we can stop every war or act of violence in the world. Second of all, I thought it was our interference in the affairs of other nations and trying to be the world's policeman that made us dispicable. The U.S. has taken a far more progressive stance toward Darfur than the U.N. has.

[K.Snyder]

This is for Scrat...

Kiss my @$$, and speak for yourself.

[Bill Sikes]

Originally Posted by Bill Sikes

Rubbish. re-read the original post. It's pretty insulting to many nations as well

as one general type of religion.

Nomad wrote: Its meant to be an insult. So what ?


Someone thought it was not, so I answered their question. That's all.

[Bryn Mawr]

Nomad wrote: Ive come to a conclusion today on terrorism.

It is, it exists and thrives because that particular portion of the world is weak of mind. The inability to reason for ones self indicates a lack of intelligence and an inability to understand and to differentiate between fundamental ideas like what is good, and what is not so good.

Debate and self involvement=good

Killing Jews and Americans and teaching your children the same=bad

Pretty basic stuff really.

Of the millions upon millions of Islamic citizens is there not one among them that is willing and able to stand up and say "hey this might not be working" ? Not one leader in the whole bunch ?

Its a back asswards civilization with no real hope for a bright future. This crowd is a lost cause. Im not implying theyre all terrorists, of course not. But they let it persist so they are just as guilty. The whole lot of them. Martin Luther King did it. He stood up and said this is not right. We are men and women and children and we walk this Earth as every man woman and child would. And he did it peacefully. With determination, with fierce heart and with reason. He changed America by walking with one foot in front of the other.

Ive not heard one uttering of heart from the whole of the middle east. I spit on them.


Two points here. Fistly the Islamic countries do not have a monopoly on terrorism by a very long shot so terrorism is not definable in terms of Islam and secondly, it makes sense to look at the conditions under which any group of people who resort to terrorism live to see what the driver is.

Why did the IRA, UDF, ETA, EOKA, Irgun, PKK, FARC, UNITA, the Tamil Tigers, the Animal Rights Activists and all the others resort to terrorist tactics in the first place.

Since when has terrorism been defined as killing Jews and Americans? (Since Bush decided it was so?)

I'm sorry Nomad but you are way out of line here.

[koan]

It's a matter of a) falling victim to stereotyped propaganda and b) placing excess weight on one point of view.

I found this really interesting article yesterday:

Why Do Americans hate Arabs?

In December 1998, I met a waiter in the quiet Egyptian port of Suez. As I sipped tea in his cafe, he pulled up a chair to chat, as Egyptians often do to welcome strangers. Not long into our amiable repartee, he looked me in the eye.

"Now I want to ask you a blunt question," he said. "Why do you Americans hate us?" I raised my eyebrows, so he explained what he meant and, in doing so, provided some insights into why others hate us.

Numerous United Nations resolutions clearly define Israel's occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem as illegal. Yet Israel receives 40 percent of all US foreign aid, more than $3.5 billion annually in recent years, roughly $500 per Israeli citizen. (The average Egyptian will earn $656 this year.)

Israel uses all of this aid to build new settlements on Palestinian land and to buy US-made warplanes and helicopter gunships. "Why do Americans support Israel when Israel represses Arabs?" the waiter asked.

He went on: Evidence clearly shows that the US-led economic sanctions on Iraq punish Iraqi civilians while hardly touching Saddam Hussein's regime. A UNICEF study in 1999 backed him up, saying that 500,000 children under five would be alive today if sanctions did not exist. Surely Iraqi children are not enemies of international peace and security, the waiter expostulated, even if their ruler is a brutal dictator.

The United States presses for continued sanctions because Hussein is flouting United Nations resolutions, but stands by Israel when it has flouted UN Resolution 242 (which urges Israel to withdraw from land occupied in the 1967 War) for over 30 years. Arabs and Muslims suffer from these and other US policies.

The only logic this young Egyptian could see was that America was pursuing a worldwide war against Islam, in which the victims were overwhelmingly Muslim. America is a democracy, he concluded, so Americans must hate Muslims to endorse this war...

Our conversation lasted for hours. When we reached a pause, the waiter invited me to dinner at his house. There I met his brother, a devout Muslim. He too asked me why America hates Arabs and Muslims. I spent two more hours talking with him. When I left, he told me warmly how happy he was "to connect with an American on a human level." He and I shook hands like old friends, as we agreed that both Americans and Arab Muslims should strive to puncture the myth that "we" are somehow essentially different from "them."

A civilized human society cannot afford to think in those tribal terms. That type of thinking leads to despair, and thence to wholly unjustifiable disasters such as Americans have just experienced. Most Americans who have lived or traveled in the Arab world can relate similar experiences: Arabs are entirely capable of differentiating between a people and the actions of its government, or the values of a people and the political agenda of a narrow minority of them. What confuses, and, yes, angers them is that we do not seem to return the favor.

[Bill Sikes]

koan wrote: Israel receives 40 percent of all US foreign aid, more than $3.5 billion annually in recent years, roughly $500 per Israeli citizen. (The average Egyptian will earn $656 this year.)


Wow! I am truly surprised.

http://www.washington-report.org/html/u ... israel.htm

has a bit more, whether it's a reliable source or not I don't know.