Why are Americans so unpopular?

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:58 pm

Diuretic;485417 wrote: First point - and I know this is informal discussion but I am still going to raise it is that the way the topic is framed is an example of petitio principii - the conclusion is arrived at before the argument is made. "Are Americans unpopular?" for mine would be a better question.

Anyway I shall defend my pedantry.

Now to the substance. "What have the Romans ever done for us?"

We could pick on any country in the world and find something wrong with it, we need to bear that in mind. I find much wrong with Australia but I wouldn't want to live anywhere else in the world, as a working man I mean. Super-wealthy people can live anywhere they wish and insulate themselves from local conditions.

Galbally I believe that Britain is still paying back its war-time debt to the US.

How did the US get to be a superpower? WWI. WWI destroyed Europe's primacy in the world and in particular began the demise of the British Empire. This is an observation, not a criticism. Up to that point I would suggest that if we'd been around at that time and the internet was in existence we'd be discussing "Why are Britons so unpopular?"

Anyway, I digress. The US was in a prime position after 1918 to fill the void left by Britain and other European countries. I think it has to be said though that, while the US has been a colonising nation it certainly didn't practise colonisation to the extent that the European powers had done for hundreds of years. That may have something to do with policy and the need to ensure hemisphere dominance (the Monroe Doctrine) rather than global hegemony. Instead American corporations have done this. We're all familiar with American culture primarily because of the influence of corporations. We think we know American culture but we don't. We see America through many peepholes, we - non-Americans - suffer from a lack of general exposure of America. Even a reasonably lengthy visit is no substitute for living in a country to understand it. If all we know about America is what we see on tv and in films we are really not seeing America at all.

One point that has been made that I agree with is the apparent tendency in America to over-emphasise individual liberty to the point where there seems to be - I say "seems" - a reluctance to accept that each of us is obliged to look after not just our own but others. The hostility towards universal health care is a prime example. I just don't understand it.

But I have to say I feel uncomfortable critiquing domestic issues in another country. I will flay its foreign policy without mercy if I choose but on domestic issues I always feel somewhat constrained by the fact that it might well be really none of my business.

I can't find myself disagreeing with much there, in historical terms, Europe is the continent that has been the number one influence on the globe over the past 5 centuries, and many of the problems that currently bedevil the world arise from the time when Europe dominated the world and divided it up between its various competing powers. Thats just a fact, and any of my fellow Europeans who beg to differ should read their history more closely. The Western Hemisphere is a product of European colonization, and the middle east and Africa were divided up over the last 100 years based on the interests of the European powers. This is one of of the major reasons I am wary of "spanking the yanks as" well. To give one good example Vietnam is considered an American war, yet it was actually a French colony once, called Indochina, and the Americans went in to initially simply to provide assistance to stop the north Vietnamese communists from talking over, only when France asked them to do so, because the French did not have the resources to do so after being so badly mauled in the Second World War. Palestine was a British mandate territory until 1948, (taken from the Turks who had lost the first world war) (Syria was a French mandate as well as Lebanon BTW) and British policy or lack of it was instrumental in what happened in terms of the creation of Israel and the subsequent unending conflict there. Thats not a criticism of Iraeli's or Palestinians either, just a historical fact.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:12 pm

'BallyBob---once again.......:-4

Aside from the god-awful fiasco Bush has wrought.....another thing wrong with my country is that so few of us are willing to travel outside our borders! One obvious reason is that we have such a wonderful land--the diversity of landscape, natural parks, etc, could fullfil a liftime of travel.

However, if we never leave the States, we never experience the challenges and benefits of dealing with other cultures. That is our loss. It also sometimes leads to Americans who are ignorant of other cultures traveling and making errors of etiquette, etc.

But, then again....we're just human, like everyone else on the planet.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:22 pm

Lulu2;485528 wrote: 'BallyBob---once again.......:-4

Aside from the god-awful fiasco Bush has wrought.....another thing wrong with my country is that so few of us are willing to travel outside our borders! One obvious reason is that we have such a wonderful land--the diversity of landscape, natural parks, etc, could fullfil a liftime of travel.

However, if we never leave the States, we never experience the challenges and benefits of dealing with other cultures. That is our loss. It also sometimes leads to Americans who are ignorant of other cultures traveling and making errors of etiquette, etc.

But, then again....we're just human, like everyone else on the planet.

Precisely my dear.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:29 pm

Oh and Iraq? Originally a hashemite kingdom, created by the British Empire in 1919 after they had driven the Ottoman Empire out of the area (to stop the Russian Empire gaining access to Iraq's oil reserves). What is now Iraq was once a province of the Ottoman Empire, called Mesopotamia (after the old pre-Islamic civilization), the British went in in 1919 as the world's greatest military power, promising the Iraqi's that they would free them from the despotism of the sultan in Constantinople, and give them a democracy and a free society, they immediately faced an insurgency, which they put down by miltary force, including the bombing of Iraqi towns by the RAF in what was then considered a "shock and awe" tactic that would subdue the native Arabs and Persians. Does any of that sound familiar to anyone?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:32 pm

I enjoy these conversations because thanks to Galbally and people like him, I get more education about the world and world events. It's a nice thing.

:-6

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:38 pm

Galbally;485545 wrote: Oh and Iraq? Originally a hashemite kingdom, created by the British Empire in 1919 after they had driven the Ottoman Empire out of the area (to stop the Russian Empire gaining access to Iraq's oil reserves). What is now Iraq was once a province of the Ottoman Empire, called Mesopotamia (after the old pre-Islamic civilization), the British went in in 1919 as the world's greatest military power, promising the Iraqi's that they would free them from the despotism of the sultan in Constantinople, and give them a democracy and a free society, they immediately faced an insurgency, which they put down by miltary force, including the bombing of Iraqi towns by the RAF in what was then considered a "shock and awe" tactic that would subdue the native Arabs and Persians. Does any of that sound familiar to anyone?

Isolated parts of the above, yes. I'd live to have my historical perspective

improved by *concise* on-line reference(s) to the above, though.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:43 pm

Bill Sikes;485558 wrote: Isolated parts of the above, yes. I'd live to have my historical perspective

improved by *concise* on-line reference(s) to the above, though.

It's pretty much chapter and verse - I'll try to dig out the relevant references over the weekend but you can trust Galbally on this.

Bill Sikes · Post by **Bill Sikes** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:47 pm

Bryn Mawr;485560 wrote: I'll try to dig out the relevant references over the weekend

Hopefully not too contorted references! I'd like something simple, as requested!

That'd be great, if you have the time.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:51 pm

Bill Sikes;485567 wrote: Hopefully not too contorted references! I'd like something simple, as requested!

That'd be great, if you have the time.

I'm outa here soon and my ******** ISP has screwed up my link from home so it will be Sunday / Monday evening before I'm back but I'll pull back what references I can for then

the only real dave (2) · Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:59 pm

RedGlitter;484851 wrote: I wonder how much debt we've accummulated by giving out foreign aid.
duh, i don't think america would give out aid if there wasn't

a)massive interest on the loan

b)some trade buy off that kept the needy country more needy for the forseeable future.

i would advise any sane person to track down a film called "the luckiest nut in the world" and try not to weep at the injustice of american trade policy.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:18 pm

[QUOTE=Diuretic;485604]Show me a country that gives foreign aid out of altruism.

Show me a country that has a trade policy based on anything but national self-interest.[/QUOTE

Didn't *most* first world countries recently write off all third world debts?

Where is the self interest in that?

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:51 pm

Then, ANY charitable contribution must be, in fact, SELF-INTEREST!

Actually, I disagree with you, Diuretic...I remember how much aid flowed to the USSR after a terrible earthquake awhile back....and countless other examples.

Good people live all over the world.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:59 pm

Novelty;484918 wrote: The War Against Terror

does that spell it out for you??

The natives themselves, believe they're free:wah:

America is a symbol of bad taste, and we get force fed it everyday,

they are the biggest polluters of the earth,

it's a profane gun slinging zombie nation, that only worships Icons

i think the popularity of burning the American flag is down to your leaders

all societies have good and bad in them, so i think the thread title is incorrect,

it should be: " Why is America so unpopular? "
We love you too, cutie. :-4

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:02 pm

Scott Hastings;484961 wrote: [...] the down side you guys have 60 million people living under the bread line, [...]
That's because our "bread line" is set so high.

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:08 pm

So--is this thread becoming a "TRASH THE STATES" thread? Because I find it hard to believe that "Americans are so unpopular" because we've got X number of poor people and we've given X numbers of dollars to foreign aid/medical care/disaster relief.

To people who claim that we're "not free," I say this: go to other nations and see how easily you can make baseless public statements about their citizens being force-fed ideas, profane, gun-slinging zombies, etc. Go to other nations and see what poverty looks like. Go to other nations and see how women fare. Go to other nations and investigate the quality of free public education.

Yes, I guess the thread has finally slipped into the mode it might've originally been intended?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:18 pm

the only real dave (2);485584 wrote: duh, i don't think america would give out aid if there wasn't

a)massive interest on the loan

b)some trade buy off that kept the needy country more needy for the forseeable future.

i would advise any sane person to track down a film called "the luckiest nut in the world" and try not to weep at the injustice of american trade policy.
:wah:

What is the US tariff rate nowadays?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:19 pm

Bryn Mawr;485610 wrote: [quote=Diuretic;485604]Show me a country that gives foreign aid out of altruism.

Show me a country that has a trade policy based on anything but national self-interest.[/QUOTE

Didn't *most* first world countries recently write off all third world debts?

Where is the self interest in that?
Easier bookkeeping?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:22 pm

Lulu2;485668 wrote: So--is this thread becoming a "TRASH THE STATES" thread? Because I find it hard to believe that "Americans are so unpopular" because we've got X number of poor people and we've given X numbers of dollars to foreign aid/medical care/disaster relief.

To people who claim that we're "not free," I say this: go to other nations and see how easily you can make baseless public statements about their citizens being force-fed ideas, profane, gun-slinging zombies, etc. Go to other nations and see what poverty looks like. Go to other nations and see how women fare. Go to other nations and investigate the quality of free public education.

Yes, I guess the thread has finally slipped into the mode it might've originally been intended?
Way to go, girlie. Now get me a cup of coffee.

*ducks*

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:24 pm

Sorry, Dahlink....I'm too busy ironing my BURKHA, spitting profanity, thinking of ways to ENSLAVE other nations while polishing my gun!

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:04 pm

To my American friends: don't sweat it lads, its tough to be the biggest, everyone wants to knock you down, but you know and I know that America is a great country, not perfect, not all things to all men, but a lot flippin better than most. That said keep an eye on that governemnt of yours, tricky customers they are.

To my non american friends, like I said before here somewhere, the U.S. is not actually the root of all evil in the world, (as I remember that reading somewhere that violence, oppression, tyranny, war, and conflict are not phenomena that only came into being circa 1777. I think valid criticism of the U.S, is both justified, and of course everyone's right (for those of us lucky enough to live in free societies) to speak their minds. For us over here in Europe, a lot of the reasons why we are free nowadays is because of American intervention in our own 20th century wars, which we inflected on the world for our own reasons of national pride, ideoogy, race hatred, grandiose ideologies that resulted in more human misery than at any other time in history, so please, try to go beyond the lazy arguments, the easy sterotypes, and the all-too predictable cant and self-serving hypocrisy that usually dished up whenever the subject of the USA is brought up.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:11 pm

That was really well put, Galbally. As an American, I appreciate what you've said.

Hugh Janus · Post by **Hugh Janus** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:13 pm

And the native Americans think exactly the same way. They didn't have much of a choice really, did they?

America was actually a UK penal colony before it started slaughtering the natives and claiming the land as their own. So please, dont try to tell me how righteous the Americans are. Over fed, Over paid, and over everything that they really should keep out of...

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:24 pm

Hugh, people have overtaken land for eons. Americans have no monopoly on that. Overpaid? Are you kidding? The minimum wage is a pittance. A college education doesn't even guarantee you a job. While doctors *may* be overpaid, and millionaires and movie stars are definitely overpaid the average citizen is struggling to get by. I am curious how you came by your knowledge of American life?

WonderWendy3 · Post by **WonderWendy3** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:08 pm

Galbally;485755 wrote: To my American friends: don't sweat it lads, its tough to be the biggest, everyone wants to knock you down, but you know and I know that America is a great country, not perfect, not all things to all men, but a lot flippin better than most. That said keep an eye on that governemnt of yours, tricky customers they are.

To my non american friends, like I said before here somewhere, the U.S. is not actually the root of all evil in the world, (as I remember that reading somewhere that violence, oppression, tyranny, war, and conflict are not phenomena that only came into being circa 1777. I think valid criticism of the U.S, is both justified, and of course everyone's right (for those of us lucky enough to live in free societies) to speak their minds. For us over here in Europe, a lot of the reasons why we are free nowadays is because of American intervention in our own 20th century wars, which we inflected on the world for our own reasons of national pride, ideoogy, race hatred, grandiose ideologies that resulted in more human misery than at any other time in history, so please, try to go beyond the lazy arguments, the easy sterotypes, and the all-too predictable cant and self-serving hypocrisy that usually dished up whenever the subject of the USA is brought up.

:yh_clap :yh_clap :yh_clap

Very Well said indeed! Thank you!

WonderWendy3 · Post by **WonderWendy3** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:09 pm

Diuretic;485777 wrote: RG - it could be from the WWII saying that American GIs were "oversexed, overpaid and over here."

My Grandfather fought in that war...a-hem...I'll call him up and ask him if he was oversexed...Grandma might not appreciate it though....

Lulu2 · Post by **Lulu2** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:19 pm

HUGE "America was actually a UK penal colony before it started slaughtering the natives and claiming the land as their own. So please, dont try to tell me how righteous the Americans are. Over fed, Over paid, and over everything that they really should keep out of..."

++++++++++++++++ Let's see...can we substitute AUSTRALIA in that first word? Yuppers, we sure can!

WonderWendy3 · Post by **WonderWendy3** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:33 pm

Diuretic;485797 wrote: I bet he remembers it Wendy. It was a very common expression in the UK during WWII. The local lads just couldn't bid for the affection of the English lasses apparently. And of course many young men were fighting in the war and those who couldn't or were in reserved occupations and even the British military personnel on leave couldn't compete. I seem to remember a black and white film featuring Bonar Colleano which seemed to have this theme in it. Can't remember the film but I will go and have a look for it.

My father was in the Royal Air Force during WWII. He fought in India and Burma. I remember him telling me once that they always knew when the Americans were about to arrive, the Coke machines came before they did. That was a significant reference to the creature comforts afforded US servicepeople and denied to the British. In many ways it woke the British up to how class-ridden and in fact, deprived, many British people were. When they saw what the average American could have they started questioning their own lot.

My Grandfather was a Bomber pilot, yes I know I'm not as educated in the history as I should be. Mom always sent us out of the room when he would talk about the war, language was alittle graphic....I would love to sit and listen to him now, but I don't get to see him much, they live 6 hours away and are snow birds, which makes it even further.

Saint · Post by **Saint** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:23 pm

I find it fascinating when someone starts talking about things that happened centuries past as though people living today have some kind of responsibility or connection with that.

You want to know why the Native Americans didn't have weapons and the Europeans did? Simple...grains and domesticated animals.

With those you can settle down get out of the hunter / gatherer stage, and invent technology. Without them, like the Native Americans or the Bushmen, you are stuck.

Since the dawn of time humans have commited genocide upon one another. Just ask the Neanderthals.

So if anyone wants an apology for what the native Americans suffered...tough. History deals the cards.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:33 pm

davieB had 3 posts when he started this thread.

As Diuretic pointed out it was couched in the terms of a true, accepted statement.

Tombstone's new Infraction System says:

No "Trolling": Please do not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of this board. Don't create meaningless threads with the sole purpose of starting a dispute.

Surely this thread is just that, an attempt to be unpleasant and sow disharmony. End of year, lots of kids are out of school for the Chrismas break and looking for some cheap kicks.

Members have given davieB much greater courtesy etc than he deserves. We've had previous threads the intention of which was to bash Americans. So it's hardly a new scenario. Can we leave it?

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:52 pm

Wendy, how fortunate I think you are to be able to talk to your grandparents. I've lost my grandmothers years ago and my granddads were both long gone before I was born. Random comment from me, I know, and probably unnecessary but I'd give so much if I could still talk to mine. I think you are a lucky woman.

Saint, I agree but I wouldn't put it in those terms so much though. I'll be the first one to say what the US did to the American Indians was terrible and should never be forgotten. That said though, I do tire of constantly having that put to me as if i am personally responsible for it or as if I and every other present and future American must make amends for it. Exactly how do you put a price on that anyway?!

WonderWendy3 · Post by **WonderWendy3** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:58 pm

[QUOTE=RedGlitter;485831]Wendy, how fortunate I think you are to be able to talk to your grandparents. I've lost my grandmothers years ago and my granddads were both long gone before I was born. Random comment from me, I know, and probably unnecessary but I'd give so much if I could still talk to mine. I think you are a lucky woman.

RG, Thank you... I am very blessed and Thankful they are alive and well. My Grandfather is 85, and up until this year has been a pilot all his adult life. He fought cancer twice and won, and is very interesting person to talk to. He's the quiet type until you get him on a subject that is important to him, then WATCH out!! I am very proud of both my grandparents, married for over 60 years and have known each other since teenagers, lived next door to each other in teen years...and still together after all these years...to be admired.

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:24 pm

Wow Wendy!! He was piloting in his 80s?! I think that's great!

I think beating cancer twice is even greater.

Your reply really made me happy just now. Lucky indeed.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:47 am

Americans aren't unpopular. What is unpopular is what their govt does in your name.

Why are muslims unpopular? They're not what is umpiopular is what a few do in their name.

Why are catholics unpopular? Theyre not, what is unpopular is what is done in their name.

Why are the british unpopular? Who cares what a bunch of foreigners think.

Why do so many americans who have never actually been out of their country think they are unpopular abroad? Where does the impression come from?

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:27 am

Ever gone into a pub in Ireland with an Englishman? My English husband used to smoke a pipe and kept a box of good aussie matches with a kangaroo on the front to put on the bar. Amazing what a difference that made. Of course, as soon as I opened me antipodean mouth, all was well too, Sport. Every Irishperson has a few rellies Down Under.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:43 am

This is something I don't often do, Diuretic. Grin. I had a manicure in Canberra a couple of weeks ago. Everyone was Chinese. No-one anywhere near me spoke any English at all. Not a single word. I had to use sign language to explain I didn't do nailpolish!! Kinda weird feeling!!