Palestine.....again and again and again.

recovering conservative · Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:23 am

Mark Aspam;1460145 wrote: It's incredible because it's ridiculous. Where on earth did you come up with that statistic?

I don't know the actual figures, but I believe that Egypt receives the same amount as Israel, which alone negates your claim. Then all of the other nations receiving US aid must be added. Massive indeed, but hardly monopolized by Israel.
NO, the military aid given to Egypt today no longer matches what's given to Israel, but that's beside the point anyway, since that "aid" can only be used to buy military hardware from the approved U.S. weapons contractors.

But, the greatest flow of money coming in to Israel from the U.S. is from the agreements to purchase Israeli weapons systems and pay for Israeli security and military trainers. Obviously, there is a quid pro quo here. But, it underlines the simple fact that the modern state of Israel's economy is based on weapons and warfare. Some slightly cynical analysts...even right inside Israel...if you accept some of the stuff that's written in Haaretz or other independent sources - have speculated that most of the actions against Palestinians in the West Bank or Gaza (which are actually precipitated by Israeli attacks that go unreported here) are instigated to test out new weapons systems made in Israel or the U.S., and see how they function in battlefield conditions. Same thing goes when new ideas in "counter-terrorism" strategies are proposed. Before Israeli special forces started blowing out walls of houses and buildings/instead of breaking down doors in the Jenin refugee camp, there were top generals and military planners wanting to see if that tactic was more effective and worthwhile. And, we can assume they liked what they saw! Because, not only has it been applied in Israeli incursions in the occupied territories since then, but they got the Americans and the South Americans and likely every other nation where they sell their services, using those same strategies and tactics.

The overarching point behind the Occupation and constant war that Israel seems to have no intentions of bringing to a close in the near future...either through treaty or ethnic cleansing, is that the Palestinians are the modern day guinea pigs or lab rats for the Israelis and their U.S. watchers to first test out state tactics of repression on populations before adopting them for later use in other war theaters.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:56 pm

It doesn't matter. Whereas the Palestinians manage a couple of kills, the Israelis are sending in the rocktes and heliocopters. So whether "the score" is 150 or 75 the results are the same. And as far as direct connection to "tit for tat" events, what does that really matter? Claiming they abducted those 3 Israeli teen-agers "because" yada-yada-yada is pretty much the same as using really foul language and disgusting insuslts on FG and claiming it's justified because some moderator put you in your place for earlier mis-deeds.

Post #31 of this thread

Try reading slowly and with earnest. Take note of words, their meaning ..... and don't fail to observe the punctuation. Just for starters notice I wrote "the score" in quotation points. "A-ha", you're saying, "now I understand!" Excellent!

Post #43

The only ha ha moment is on me, spending way to much time here with you.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:59 pm

RC: ".....the Palestinians are the modern day guinea pigs or lab rats for the Israelis and their U.S. watchers to first test out state tactics of repression on populations before adopting them for later use in other war theaters."

Please don't state your theories & opinions as facts.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:07 pm

tude dog;1460199 wrote: My mistake?

Is there someone standing behind you?

tude dog;1460199 wrote: Post #29 of this thread.

That was what I was talking about.

Seems we are on different pages.

I've already given you the key to answering to your question.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:25 pm

High Threshold;1460202 wrote: Is there someone standing behind you?

I've already given you the key to answering to your question.

You ain't given me anything but a lot of BS

It just happened I realized my mistake and while on edit you posted.

Post by **LarsMac** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:27 pm

AnneBoleyn;1460200 wrote: RC: ".....the Palestinians are the modern day guinea pigs or lab rats for the Israelis and their U.S. watchers to first test out state tactics of repression on populations before adopting them for later use in other war theaters."

Please don't state your theories & opinions as facts.

I pretty much assume that everything everyone is posting is opinion, unless they show data that demonstrates that it is fact.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:29 pm

Mark Aspam;1460145 wrote: It's incredible because it's ridiculous. Where on earth did you come up with that statistic?

I don't know the actual figures, but I believe that Egypt receives the same amount as Israel, which alone negates your claim. Then all of the other nations receiving US aid must be added. Massive indeed, but hardly monopolized by Israel.

Surely the actual figures must be available, if someone can provide a reliable source, please do so, or I will try to find them and post them myself on this or a new thread.

There have been several threads over the years on this subject, mostly going nowhere, and I do not intend to become embroiled in this one. But here is some BASIC food for thought:

Brave Israeli soldiers risk their lives protecting their women and children from terrorists.

Cowardly Islamic terrorists attack Israel while hiding behind their women and children.

Supporters of the terrorists are not "innocent civilians'.

The Hamas leader himself sums it up: "The Israelis love life and we love death."

That's the whole thing in the proverbial nutshell. All the rest is commentary.

I cannot find the yearly figures share of aid down the years, but have seen evidence that I pursued because I didn't believe it myself.

Recent figures show Afghanistan leading the table, with Israel second, which still beggers belief if aid is for what most people would define aid to be.

And then I read your parting shots..........Brave Israeli soldiers......cowardly Islamic....ect etc.......so I don't believe it's worth discussing the realities with anybody with such a obviously biased starting point

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:50 pm

recovering conservative;1460132 wrote: Yes, I forgot that according to the story, the Levites didn't return to polytheism and became the priests of the Temple. All that can be proven, is that there were people calling their tribe - Judah. They...who knows if it was the entire tribe...were taken into bondage, into a life of slavery in Babylon, and were among many of the enslaved that Cyrus the Persian emperor set free when he conquered the Babylonians. Everything we know about the "lost tribes" of Israel is in the Bible! There are no external sources to verify that the Judeans were one of a 12 tribe nation called Israel. There is no evidence of this ancient Israel existing in non-biblical literature, let alone that the nation of Israel conquered the lands to their east all the way to the Euphrates River...supposedly during the reign of King Solomon.

Still a nice story.

recovering conservative;1460132 wrote: Why is this important today? One reason at least - we have a modern nation, seizing territories and expelling natives on the basis of rebuilding a mythical nation of the distant past.

Expelling natives. That's the clam.

"mythical nation"

Whatever that means to me sounds a little strong.

recovering conservative;1460132 wrote: From what I've read about him, he's not an easy guy to get along with, but that's typical of radicals in many fields who buck the accepted wisdom and refuse to go along with the crowd.

There are a lot more than the Orthodox, who are outraged by his findings!

His findings, or opinions?

recovering conservative;1460132 wrote: First of all, he has called into question, the entire legitimacy of Israeli archaeology right up to recent times. The standard approach of the major scholars in the field, followed the guidance of people like Yigael Yadin - who believed that the purpose of biblical archaeology was to prove the existence of places, events and people described in the Bible. That approach made Yadin so popular, that he also ended up as prime minister of Israel.

Finkelstein has gone in the opposite direction, and even secular Reformed Jews want to try to shut him down, because the legitimacy of the modern state of Israel depends on the accuracy of the biblical historical accounts.

It's worth noting that the father of the modern Zionist movement - Theodore Herzl, investigated and even promoted other proposals for a Jewish homeland besides going back to Palestine! A senior British diplomat - Joseph Chamberlain, proposed Uganda...then a British colony, as the Jewish homeland; and Herzl in turn, presented the British Uganda Plan to the Sixth Zionist Congress in Switzerland in 1903. There was also an offer made in the 1930's to set up a Jewish homeland in the Kimberly region of Western Australia.

I guess the point is from the historical perspective, that the early Zionists weren't under the impression that the homeland had to be in Palestine.

Zionism in a nutshell

Thank You:-3

Mark Aspam · Post by **Mark Aspam** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:17 pm

High Threshold;1460146 wrote: 1. Palestinian children go up against the Israel Army (equipped with guns, tanks, rockets, helicopters) and all the children have are a handfull of rocks. That's what is called BRAVE.

2. And then there are Palestinians who strap explosives to their waist and ignite it. In comparison to that the Israelis don't have the tinniest idea of what "Bravery" means.1. Hmm.. that sounds a lot more like STUPID to me. And meanwhile their parents are hiding under the bed!

2. Those are mostly the mentally ill who don't have the least idea of what they are being told or forced to do. The rest are, I suppose, religious zealots who actually believe that their Allah will reward them for murder. If that is your idea of bravery so be it. Have you thought about volunteering?

In any case, no offense intended to any poster here, but I'm out, it's not going anywhere but in circles.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:45 pm

High Threshold;1460146 wrote: Oh, cut the crap. Palestinian children go up against the Israel Army (equipped with guns, tanks, rockets, helicopters) and all the children have are a handfull of rocks. That's what is called BRAVE. And then there are Palestinians who strap explosives to their waist and ignite it. In comparison to that the Israelis don't have the tinniest idea of what "Bravery" means.
Brave, or Brainwashed?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:28 pm

tude dog;1460203 wrote: You ain't given me anything but a lot of BS

I apologise if I've spoken above your head. It wasn't intentional.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:44 pm

Mark Aspam;1460214 wrote: 1. Hmm.. that sounds a lot more like STUPID to me. And meanwhile their parents are hiding under the bed!

Ah! If only the Palestinians had a bed to hide beneath! Or even four walls and a roof in which to place a bed! Those are the sort of things to only dream of .....

Mark Aspam;1460214 wrote: 2. Those are mostly the mentally ill .....

Funny that. It's the same thing you say about the Americans who shoot up shopping malls, churches, post offices, cinemas, road-rage, universities, colleges, high schools, primary schools and kindergartens! It must be tough finding a new catch-all villain now that Communism is pretty much out of the way.

Mark Aspam;1460214 wrote: ... who don't have the least idea of what they are being told or forced to do. The rest are, I suppose, religious zealots who actually believe that their Allah will reward them for murder.

Are you really talking about the Israelis? It's a very good description of the American military though I'm really surprised you mention Allah. I assumed that most Americans were Christians! Is there a large percentage of Moslems in the American military?

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:56 pm

FourPart;1460216 wrote: Brave, or Brainwashed?

It wasn't I who introduced the notion of "BRAVERY". That was Mark Aspam. But once you bring it into the discussion, and use it as support for own agenda, then it is free to be used in the counterpoint. The brainwashing you speak of is prevalent on both sides of the dispute. Your move.

recovering conservative · Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:30 am

AnneBoleyn;1460200 wrote: RC: ".....the Palestinians are the modern day guinea pigs or lab rats for the Israelis and their U.S. watchers to first test out state tactics of repression on populations before adopting them for later use in other war theaters."

Please don't state your theories & opinions as facts.
So, you're accusing me of making it all up? Don't bother replying to anymore of my posts. go on living in your own little thought bubble like most of the regulars on this forum!

“The Lab: Israel Tests Weapons, Tactics On Captive Palestinian Population

By Jonathan Cook

..............Despite having a population smaller than New York City, Israel has emerged in the last few years as one of the world’s largest exporters of weapons.

In June defense analysts at Jane’s put Israel in sixth place, ahead of China and Italy, both major weapons producers. Surveys that include Israel’s growing covert trade put it even higher—in fourth place, ahead of Britain and Germany, and beaten only by the United States, Russia and France.

The extent of Israel’s success in this market can be gauged by a simple mathematical calculation. With record sales last year of $7 billion, Israel earned nearly $1,000 per capita from the arms trade—up to 10 times the per capita income the United States derives from its weapons industry.

...........................“The Lab, which won a recent award at DocAviv, Israel’s documentary Oscars, is due to premiere in the U.S. in August. Directed by Yotam Feldman, the film presents the first close-up view of Israel’s arms industry and the dealers who have enriched themselves.

The title relates to the film’s central argument: that Israel has rapidly come to rely on the continuing captivity of Palestinians in what are effectively the world’s largest open-air prisons.

The reason is that there are massive profits to be made from testing Israeli military innovations on the more than four million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.

According to Feldman, that trend began with Operation Defensive Shield, Israel’s re-invasion of the West Bank and Gaza in 2002, which formally reversed the process of Israeli territorial withdrawals initiated by the Oslo accords.

Following that operation, many army officers went into private business, and starting in 2005 Israel’s arms industry started to break new records, at $2 billion a year.

But the biggest surge in sales followed Operation Cast Lead, Israel’s month-long assault on Gaza in winter 2008-09, which killed more than 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis. Record sales in the wake of that attack reached $6 billion.

These military operations, including the most recent against Gaza, last year’s Pillar of Cloud, the film argues, serve as little more than laboratory-style experiments to evaluate and refine the effectiveness of new military approaches, both strategies and weaponry.

Gaza, in particular, has become the shop window for Israel’s military industries, allowing them to develop and market systems for long-term surveillance, control and subjugation of an “enemy population.

Given that most Palestinians are now tightly contained in urban settings, traditional policies designed to maintain a distinction between civilians and fighters have had to be erased.

.......................In the run-up to an attack on Nablus’ casbah in 2002, much feared by the Israeli army for its labyrinthine layout, he suggested that the soldiers move not through the alleyways, where they would be easy targets, but unseen through the buildings, knocking holes through the walls that separated the houses.

Naveh’s idea became the key to crushing Palestinian armed resistance, exposing the only places—in the heart of overcrowded cities and refugee camps—where Palestinian fighters could still find sanctuary from Israeli surveillance.

Another expert, Yitzhak Ben Israel, a former general turned professor at Tel Aviv University, helped to develop a mathematical formula that predicts the likely success of assassination programs to end organized resistance.

Ben Israel’s calculus proved to the army that a Palestinian cell planning an attack could be destroyed with high probability by “neutralizing as few as a fifth of its fighters.

It is precisely this merging of theory, hardware and repeated “testing in the field that has armies, police forces and the homeland security industries of the U.S., Europe, Asia and Latin America lining up to buy Israeli know-how.

The lessons learned in Gaza and the West Bank have useful applications, the film makes clear, in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Or as Benjamin Ben Eliezer, a former defense minister turned industry minister, explains in the film, Israel’s advantage is that “people like to buy things that have been tested. If Israel sells weapons, they have been tested, tried out. We can say we’ve used this 10 years, 15 years.

The film’s convincing thesis, however, offers a disturbing message to those who hope for an end to Israel’s occupation of Palestine.

That is because, as Israel has made its arsenal more lethal and its soldiers ever safer, Israeli society has become increasingly tolerant of war as the background noise of life. If Israelis pay no price for war, then the army and politicians face no pressure to end it.

Rather, the pressure acts in the opposite direction. With the occupied territories serving as an ideal laboratory, regular attacks on Palestinians to test and showcase its military systems provide Israel with a business model far more lucrative than one offered by a peace agreement.

..................as foreign governments line up to learn from Israel’s experience, the question arises: who else among us faces a Palestinian future? â‘

Israel Alleged To Be Using Experimental Weapons On Palestinians In Gaza

While the debate rages as to whether Israel bombing homes and hospitals is legal, another legally questionable event is occurring during Operation Protective Edge. According to doctors in Gaza, Israel is using an experimental weapon named Dense Inert Metal Explosives (DIME) on the population of Gaza. A weapon that could have negative health effects beyond the death and destruction it is causing now.

The DIME weapons Israel is using are claimed to be made with tungsten which can cause cancer at certain doses. Whether the doses the Palestinians in Gaza are receiving are sufficient enough is unknown. What is known, is that Israel is using the Palestinians in Gaza as human test subjects to further their arms industry research.

Proven Effective: Crowd Control Weapons in the Occupied Palestinian Territories

May 2014

Through three types of “non-lethal crowd control weapons as case studies, the following report highlights the harmful consequences of such weapons, including their potentially lethal effects. Additionally the report addresses how the occupied Palestinian territories are being used as a lab for testing new weapons for civil oppression on humans, in order to label them as “proven effective for marketing abroad.

The report focuses on three types of weapons as case studies: tear gas canisters, produced and marketed by Combined Systems (CSI) and M.R. Hunter; "the Scream", manufactured by Electro-Optics Research & Development (EORD) and Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD); and "the Skunk", manufactured by Odortec, with the supporting companies: MAN Group and Beit Alpha Technologies (B.A.T). The report highlights the harmful consequences of these weapons, including their potentially lethal effects. The occupied Palestinian territories are being used as a lab for testing new weapons for civil oppression on humans, in order to label them as “proven effective for marketing abroad.

In each case study, the report provides information about the companies involved and about the practical consequences of using their weapons. These consequences have ranged from property damage and minor injury to multiple deaths of unarmed protestors, such as Jawaher Abu Rahmah from Bil’in and Mustafa Tamimi from Nabi Saleh, who were allegedly killed as a result of various uses of CSI tear gas canisters by the Israeli army. The report describes the problematic ways in which these products are being used, such as the use of the Skunk as a means of "collective punishment" by spraying it into private houses and businesses.

In addition to the violation of human rights, crowd control weapons are a direct and violent tool for suppressing non-violent protest and constitute a means of controlling future civil uprisings around the world.

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:42 am

I don't read where she said that YOU made it up.

But that story does not make it fact.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:48 am

LarsMac;1460231 wrote: ... that story does not make it fact.

You make a good point, but there ain't many of us who are willing to take the risk of going on living in our own little thought bubbles like most of the regulars on this forum! :-2

Post by **LarsMac** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:10 am

High Threshold;1460234 wrote: You make a good point, but there ain't many of us who are willing to take the risk of going on living in our own little thought bubbles like most of the regulars on this forum! :-2

Most people have their "own little thought bubbles" The difference is about what we put in them.

I am fairly open-minded, but I tend to question those groups who claim to have have "The Truth"

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:16 am

LarsMac;1460235 wrote: Most people have their "own little thought bubbles" The difference is about what we put in them.

I am fairly open-minded, but I tend to question those groups who claim to have have "The Truth"

I understand and I agree.

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:24 am

RC: "So, you're accusing me of making it all up? Don't bother replying to anymore of my posts. go on living in your own little thought bubble like most of the regulars on this forum!"

Wow. How disappointing that you choose to take such a childish, aggressive position. Maybe you should take a few deep yoga breaths & understand that although you have intelligence & eloquence you are not in control of the events of the world or the thoughts & expressions of others. This is not the way to "win friends & influence people" as Dale Carnegie would say.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:37 am

The facts and figures I presume are for real, it is the interpretation behind them that is debatable.

The 'troubles' in Belfast accelerated advances in the treatment of gunshot and blast injuries, I suspect the Palestinian situation has 'advanced' control of urban population for those that might want that sort of knowledge.

But to consider the Israeli government is using the Palestinian population as lab rats is a conspiracy theory too far.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:24 am

High Threshold;1460220 wrote: I apologise if I've spoken above your head. It wasn't intentional.

Nothing that wearing high boots can't handle.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:00 pm

tude dog;1460090 wrote: I must admit that while aware of the murdered Jewish teens and revenge murder of a Palestinian teen, did not follow it closely.

I did some checking but failed to find a direct connection to those events and your 150 plus dean Palestinians.

I've just joined this site and thought I'd read through the entire thing to get a feel of the posters and their thoughts. Then I came to this chestnut. How can you not find the connection? There has been constant shelling of the Palestinians since resulting now in around 200 deaths.

That's like not seeing the demise of the Native American Indians and Aborigines as a result of white Europeans deciding that they'd like that piece of the Earth.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:13 pm

recovering conservative;1460098 wrote: It's in the Bible! And unless you believe the Book of Mormon, those lost tribes were never found...or they never existed in the form presented in our sacred texts.

Do you actually know any Jews? They weren't lost, they were scattered.

They are identified to which tribe they are descended from by the shawl they wear in synagogue.

And I thought there were 12 tribes.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:14 pm

It was less than ten years ago the Israeli government forced Jewish settlers from their homes on the Gaza.

Settlers, Soldiers Clash in Synagogues

KFAR DAROM, Gaza Strip, Aug. 18 - More than 1,000 Israelis made a defiant stand Thursday in the synagogues of two Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip, confronting their own soldiers with rudimentary arsenals of household items in a final attempt to prevent their evacuation from land they believe was promised to them by God.

The standoffs came as Israeli soldiers moved swiftly to clear communities that have been most opposed to the Gaza evacuation. After a day of emotional encounters around kitchen tables and in places of worship, Israeli officials said 17 of Gaza's 21 settlements had been emptied, with agreements in place to evacuate two others.

The Israelis left the Arabs with more than the dirt, for example,

Looters strip Gaza green houses

]NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza Strip — Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

American Jewish donors had bought more than 3,000 greenhouses from Israeli settlers in Gaza for $14 million last month and transferred them to the Palestinian Authority. Former World Bank President James Wolfensohn, who brokered the deal, put up $500,000 of his own cash.

Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.

Israels enemy is not the civilian population

Israeli official says 14 Hamas operatives spared in bid to minimize civilian casualties

Israeli military officials insist they are going out of their way to minimize civilian casualties in the intensifying ground invasion of Gaza, telling FoxNews.com that some 14 Hamas terror operatives have been let off the hook after determinations that targeting them could put others at risk.

“We weigh up the potential civilian damage if we carry out a strike, against taking out or not taking out the terrorist," Israel Defense Forces Lt. Col. Peter Lerner told FoxNews.com in an exclusive interview. "As a policy we do not target civilians intentionally and do everything in our power to [minimize casualties]. I can tell you that on at least 14 occasions – [during the current hostilities] - we have let 14 senior terrorists fly because we did not want extensive collateral damage.

Hamas views civilians as legitimate targets.

At least 50 rockets fired at Israel since IDF ground troops entered Gaza on Thursday night; rockets also intercepted in southern Israel throughout Friday.

A fresh, massive volley of rockets was aimed at central Israel from the Gaza Strip on Friday evening, even as IDF ground grounds operated in the Gaza Strip in a bid to stem the attacks. At least two rockets were reportedly intercepted in the Tel Aviv area.

Rockets were fired across the central area at around 6pm Friday, with sirens sounding in Tel Aviv, Herzliya, Or Yehuda, Kfar Saba, Hod Hasharon, Ganei Tikva, Yehud and Kiryat Ono.

Moments later, sirens also sounded in Ashdod and the surrounding area.

It will continue until they run out of rockets.

Hamas keeps up rocket attacks after Israel agrees to cease-fire

Israel's Cabinet on Tuesday accepted an Egyptian proposal for a cease-fire with Hamas, but the militant group rejected the offer, putting a pause in the week-long armed conflict that has killed nearly 200 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip at risk.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office confirmed the Israeli security cabinet's approval of the cease-fire shortly after a 9 a.m. deadline Tuesday morning.

Hamas immediately rejected the proposal, saying the militant group's conditions for a cease-fire were not met and it was not included in discussions. "We were not part of the announcement so we are not going to commit to it," Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told The Times.

As Hamas leaders, like Arafat reap million, billions, the poor bleed.

Gaza Strip full of corrupt millionaires, says Palestinian official]

Unusual London rally highlights inter-Palestinian split as activists blame West Bank leadership for Gaza suffering.

Pro-Palestinian demonstrations in London and other British cities are a matter of routine. This week, for a change, the demonstration did not take place outside an Israeli-linked event but outside the Palestinian embassy.

With the geographical split between the Fatah-ruled West Bank and the Gaza Strip under Hamas, the confrontation between the two Palestinian camps rarely takes place face-to-face and in the open. Sometimes you have to go as far away as London to see it.

On Thursday, a demonstration by a handful of activists took place outside the Palestinian mission in London. The demonstrators were protesting over their claim that the Palestinian Authority is preventing the transfer of money from the European Union funding diesel fuel for Gaza's power station and this is creating power-shortages in the Strip.

It is a story which has be repeated over and over.

I must thank Charles Krauthammer for his commentary which gave me links I used here.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:53 pm

First of all, to this site.

Sid;1460257 wrote: I've just joined this site and thought I'd read through the entire thing to get a feel of the posters and their thoughts. Then I came to this chestnut. How can you not find the connection?

If you are referring to post #30 of this thread, not only could I not, but the poster I answered to pretty much abandoned his claim.

Sid;1460257 wrote: There has been constant shelling of the Palestinians since resulting now in around 200 deaths.

You could be a little more clear, cause I don't know what your are talking about.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:09 pm

tude dog;1460261 wrote:

If you are referring to post #30 of this thread, not only could I not, but the poster I answered to pretty much abounded his claim.

You could be a little more clear, cause I don't know what your are talking about.

What does "abounded his claim" mean?

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:34 pm

Sid;1460258 wrote: Do you actually know any Jews? They weren't lost, they were scattered.

They are identified to which tribe they are descended from by the shawl they wear in synagogue.

And I thought there were 12 tribes.

Actually, all a Tallit is, prayer shawl, is a four cornered garment with special little macrame on the corners.

They can be petty much any size with different designs.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:37 pm

Bruv;1460263 wrote: What does "abounded his claim" mean?

I need to get spell check.

Should have been abandoned.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:46 pm

Bruv;1460263 wrote: What does "abounded his claim" mean?

Thank You

I'll rest easier tonight.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:54 pm

Things is, a spellchecker would have OKed abounded (at least mine does).

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:56 pm

If the claim was that the dead Palestinians as a result of bombardment by Israel of the Gaza strip were related to the earlier murders of 3 Jewish lads ?................I have never abandoned that claim.

I actually extended the claim to include the 9/11 atrocity was related to the treatment of Muslims worldwide.

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Fri Jul 18, 2014 2:59 pm

It's nothing new to put spin onto things & hide other facts in order to show the supported side in a better light. That's what Propaganda's all about.

Just look at our Glorious Victory over the Germans at Dunkirk. We really showed them didn't we.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:00 am

Always good to get another point of view............and try and look at it from that angle.

Europe is in an uproar. Frankfurt, Germany is rioting, along with France, the UK and in other places where it’s Springtime for Hitler all over again.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:07 am

tude dog;1460256 wrote: Nothing that wearing high boots can't handle.

Seeing as you've produced such a depth of brown stuff to have reached your eye balls, I suggest you wear those boots high enough to at least cover your ears. There's a good boy.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:35 am

The death toll rises 500 plus mainly women and children they tell us, against 20, 18 of which are soldiers.

Nightly the news cameras show vividly the damage and injured and the grieving........in Gaza.

Israel claim rockets being shot at their civilians,in greater numbers, the defences seem to work well as the death toll remains very low.

The public relations has upped a gear, Netanyahu claims the Palestinians are being lied to by Hamas, claims the population are being ordered to stay put despite the Israelis asking them to leave so they can raze the place without bloodshed. Hamas it seems is using it's own people as shields as they fire from hospitals, schools and residential areas.

Nobody can deny a nation the right to defend itself, and I say that from an Israeli and a Palestinian stand point............so where is the answer?

British Law says to defend yourself, force can be used equal to the force used on you, that is not what I am seeing.

2 Links........Real Jihad ......thought provoking.

And another about attitude.......I wonder if that is what it is all down to.....attitudes

FourPart · Post by **FourPart** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:12 am

Bruv;1460421 wrote: Nobody can deny a nation the right to defend itself, and I say that from an Israeli and a Palestinian stand point............so where is the answer?

British Law says to defend yourself, force can be used equal to the force used on you, that is not what I am seeing.

2 Links........Real Jihad ......thought provoking.

And another about attitude.......I wonder if that is what it is all down to.....attitudes
By definition, the best that can arise from that is a stalemate, where they will continue to kill each other will equal force capabilities.

There is no way in a war situation where one side is going to limit themselves to the level of the other. It's just not practical & in no way should be expected. It's living in Cloud Cuckoo Land to believe otherwise.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:25 am

Bruv;1460421 wrote: Nobody can deny a nation the right to defend itself ....

I know that your response is much, much more than this tiny quote I've chosen so please forgive me for singling this one out. "Defense" is the key word. The grand difficulty is being able to judge how and if it applies to any one instance.

- Hitler had some men shot, dressed them in Polish unforms, dumped their bodies within the German border and use it to justify his "defensive" invasion of Poland.

- Geo. W. Bush falsified tele-communcations, claimed satillite sightings of WMD's, and planted CIA agents into the first UN inspection team in order to justify his "defensive" invasion of Irak.

How many examples are necessary? I've got a ton of them.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:12 pm

Bruv;1460277 wrote: If the claim was that the dead Palestinians as a result of bombardment by Israel of the Gaza strip were related to the earlier murders of 3 Jewish lads ?................I have never abandoned that claim.

I tried but could not find a direct connection. All the same, it is as good as any reason to go after Hamas.

Bruv;1460277 wrote: I actually extended the claim to include the 9/11 atrocity was related to the treatment of Muslims worldwide.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:16 pm

High Threshold;1460391 wrote: Seeing as you've produced such a depth of brown stuff to have reached your eye balls, I suggest you wear those boots high enough to at least cover your ears. There's a good boy.

Golly, thanks. You win the brown stuff insult game.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:33 pm

High Threshold;1460432 wrote: I know that your response is much, much more than this tiny quote I've chosen so please forgive me for singling this one out. "Defense" is the key word. The grand difficulty is being able to judge how and if it applies to any one instance.

- Hitler had some men shot, dressed them in Polish unforms, dumped their bodies within the German border and use it to justify his "defensive" invasion of Poland.

- Geo. W. Bush falsified tele-communcations, claimed satillite sightings of WMD's, and planted CIA agents into the first UN inspection team in order to justify his "defensive" invasion of Irak.

How many examples are necessary? I've got a ton of them.

I hear what you are saying but you failed to quote the whole sentence.............so where is the answer?

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:39 pm

FourPart;1460428 wrote: By definition, the best that can arise from that is a stalemate, where they will continue to kill each other will equal force capabilities.

There is no way in a war situation where one side is going to limit themselves to the level of the other. It's just not practical & in no way should be expected. It's living in Cloud Cuckoo Land to believe otherwise.

I wasn't expecting that, but the justice of the present situation means that Hamas are free to lob their bombs into Israel by any means available.........or to 'fight' their cause anywhere in the world to draw the world's attention. That means by any sympathetic muslim on any high street in any country, anywhere.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:44 pm

tude dog;1460446 wrote: I tried but could not find a direct connection. All the same, it is as good as any reason to go after Hamas.

Hamas has good reason to go after it's aggressor's backer also?

AnneBoleyn · Post by **AnneBoleyn** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:48 pm

Bruv;1460454 wrote: Hamas has good reason to go after it's aggressor's backer also?

They think they do, but they don't & deserve what they get if they try.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:00 pm

Bruv;1460449 wrote: ... you failed to quote the whole sentence...... .

It wasn't necessary.

Bruv;1460449 wrote: ......so where is the answer?

Your question is rhetorical. The paradox of "no answer available" is (IN A NUTSHELL) in the small bit I quoted. If a nation's right to agression is based upon the need for defense, then agressive action can only be justified if one can exibit plausable motivation for the claim of that defense. False motivation by way of black flag operations and clandestine-oriented military/political coups make the claim invalid. In the end proof for the need of defense boils down to who can tell the best lie and go untected.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:16 pm

I was pro-Israel for many, many years. Completely aside from the fact that I still do find it awfully romantic to think that Jews finally got to "return home" and that Hebrew was resurrected has a useful language, there are (were) these three major convictions.

1). That Israel proclaimed it would return land for peace.

2). That "the Arabs" said they would not rest "till every Jew was pushed into the sea."

3). Golda Meir's statement, "There will be peace in the Middle East when the Palestinians love their children more than they hate us."

I have come to believe that the first points are untrue, and the third one is debatable by way of the destitute situation the Palestinians find themselves in.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:16 pm

AnneBoleyn;1460455 wrote: They think they do, but they don't & deserve what they get if they try.

Any living thing will defend it's off spring and it's life by any means available when cornered.

A rat will attack you if it has no escape.

tude dog · Post by **tude dog** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:26 pm

Bruv;1460421 wrote: The death toll rises 500

That fact is horrible.

Bruv;1460421 wrote: they tell us, against 20, 18 of which are soldiers.

Horrible

Bruv;1460421 wrote: Nightly the news cameras show vividly the damage and injured and the grieving........in Gaza.

I would like to believe that the "Hamas leaders" really give a rats butt.

Bruv;1460421 wrote: Israel claim rockets being shot at their civilians,in greater numbers, the defences seem to work well as the death toll remains very low.

As if more death were desirable.

Bruv;1460421 wrote: The public relations has upped a gear, Netanyahu claims the Palestinians are being lied to by Hamas, claims the population are being ordered to stay put despite the Israelis asking them to leave so they can raze the place without bloodshed. Hamas it seems is using it's own people as shields as they fire from hospitals, schools and residential areas.

I dunno about "raze the place".

Bruv;1460421 wrote: Nobody can deny a nation the right to defend itself, and I say that from an Israeli and a Palestinian stand point............so where is the answer?

"a Palestinian stand point"

What is that??? Who speaks for these "Palestinians?"

Bruv;1460421 wrote: British Law says to defend yourself, force can be used equal to the force used on you, that is not what I am seeing.

Well, whatever works for ya'all. I have no desire to get into a discussion as if that is a good thing or not except to say it is debatable.

Bruv;1460421 wrote: 2 Links........Real Jihad ......thought provoking.

I must be clear here.

There have been times I post something with a link and then another poster questions it just because it come from this or that source which made it untrue, bias, inaccurate or whatever.

I won't say that about PRESSTV. What you just posted may contain fact, even something thoughtful.

I can find both those elsewhere and not feel dirty.

Iran is the arms supplier to groups like Hamas and Hezbolla.

They have nothing to say I care to hear.

And another about attitude.......I wonder if that is what it is all down to.....attitudes

Slow news day.

yenta on the loose.

Bruv · Post by **Bruv** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:28 pm

High Threshold;1460460 wrote: I was pro-Israel for many, many years.

I have always had a grudging respect for the swift justice, eye for an eye, boldness and couragious Israel, surrounded by it's sworn enemies.

But unless their Public Relations are slacking, and the figures of the death toll and the TV coverage is wrong, it is not the way we are all lead to believe it is.

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:28 pm

tude dog;1460447 wrote: Golly, thanks. You win the brown stuff insult game.

Horrible

High Threshold · Post by **High Threshold** » Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:30 pm

Bruv;1460465 wrote: .... Israel .... unless their Public Relations are slacking, and the figures of the death toll and the TV coverage is wrong, it is not the way we are all lead to believe it is.

Hear, hear!