Snooze:-6
Re Jesus and marriage. There are some scholars who think that might be a possibility and there are some who don't. The Bible says absolutely nothing about this issuew whatsoever. Whether or not Jesus was married does not really impinge in any way on the Christian faith. It would be immaterial.
The story of Adam and Eve is an ancient myth that was passed on by word of mouth for centuries before it was committed to writing likely during the Babylonian exile. A myth is a story that is invented to tell how something came to be. In this case it does present some truths about the nature of God as well as the fact that God was the prime mover. It also tries to explain the existence of evil in the world. The story of Job, another book in the Bible, was also written to try to explain the existence of evil but both really fail on that note.
The Bible itself is composed of myth, legend, poetry, short story, fiction, theology, philosophy, folk tale and some kernels of history spread throughout. It is not a Divine construct but is man's response to his experiences of both what he thought was the Divine and the Divine.
The Bible was written in a style called Haggadah Midrash, which at that time referred to both a method or style of writing and a method or style of interpretation. Basically a new story is told in terms of a former story that was important to the Hebrew folks. It is not an attempt to lie or cheat but a religious method of teaching truth. The story of Joshua crossing the Jordan on dry land is of course based on the most important story to the Hebrew people, the Exodus across the Reed Sea on dry land.
One must remember that truth can be presented in many ways. Just because something is not historically true does not mean that it does not present truths. That is a modern idea based on the development of rationalism and is wrong.
The Bible becomes, for Christians "The Word of God" not by virtue of its authorship but by virtue of the fact that we feel that God does speak to us through the very human words of the Bible.
I could go on but that may be enough for now and may generate in your mind some more questions. If not I can carry on in some other Biblical topics.
Shalom
Ted:-6
To Ted, with love
To Ted, with love
TW:-6
Yes.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Yes.
Shalom
Ted:-6
To Ted, with love
TW2005:-6
The Bible might be considered a miracle in the same sense that the sacred writings of all the great faiths might be considered a miracle. It is not a specific miracle.
Shalom
Ted:-6
The Bible might be considered a miracle in the same sense that the sacred writings of all the great faiths might be considered a miracle. It is not a specific miracle.
Shalom
Ted:-6
To Ted, with love
Snooze:-6
No question should be ridiculed. The Immaculate Conception is the idea that Mary (Miriam) the mother of Jesus was born in the same way the legend of Jesus birth is portrayed. That is that Mary's mother did not have sex with here husband to produce her as an offspring.
Fortunately or unfortunately Mary and Jesus were both human beings who had two parents. In Jesus case, Mary and Joseph. Virgin births do not happen and God has no need to institute such a feat.
Shalom
Ted:-6
No question should be ridiculed. The Immaculate Conception is the idea that Mary (Miriam) the mother of Jesus was born in the same way the legend of Jesus birth is portrayed. That is that Mary's mother did not have sex with here husband to produce her as an offspring.
Fortunately or unfortunately Mary and Jesus were both human beings who had two parents. In Jesus case, Mary and Joseph. Virgin births do not happen and God has no need to institute such a feat.
Shalom
Ted:-6
To Ted, with love
TW2005:-6
I am not quite sure what you mean by a "miracle". The short answer would be no. It is the product of humans who were so excited by their experience of the Divine that they had to tell the story in one way or another. This experience inspired them to write just as poets are inspired to write or great novelists are inspired to write.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I am not quite sure what you mean by a "miracle". The short answer would be no. It is the product of humans who were so excited by their experience of the Divine that they had to tell the story in one way or another. This experience inspired them to write just as poets are inspired to write or great novelists are inspired to write.
Shalom
Ted:-6
To Ted, with love
The above answer refers to the Bible only. It does not refer to its compilation.
It is my belief that the Divine had input into its compilation.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It is my belief that the Divine had input into its compilation.
Shalom
Ted:-6
To Ted, with love
Ted, do you think that maybe we tend to ignore the mystic elements of our religions?
I'm asking this because although I appreciate that miracles, like the Virgin birth, are almost impossible to comprehend and could of course be merely fantasy or storied handed down from one generation to another, but it can seem that we remove the mystery of God by explaining them away or proposing that they didn't happen.
I'm asking this because although I appreciate that miracles, like the Virgin birth, are almost impossible to comprehend and could of course be merely fantasy or storied handed down from one generation to another, but it can seem that we remove the mystery of God by explaining them away or proposing that they didn't happen.
Live the questions now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live along some distant day into the answers...Rainer Maria Rilke
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Valerie100
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:31 am
To Ted, with love
Do you really think that Jesus would marry a reformed prostitute? I know that there is forgiveness of our sins, but we're talking about the Son of God, here. I don't think so.
To Ted, with love
Ted wrote: The Immaculate Conception is the idea that Mary (Miriam) the mother of Jesus was born in the same way the legend of Jesus birth is portrayed. That is that Mary's mother did not have sex with here husband to produce her as an offspring.Ted, that is incorrect. The I.C. is the idea that Mary, by a special favor from God, was spared from the stain of original sin. This idea, while not defined as an article of faith by the RCC until the 19th century, goes back to the early years of Christianity and is based on Luke's gospel, in which the angel addresses Mary as 'full of grace', which, according to Christian belief, she could not have been under the bonds of original sin.
It has nothing to do with her physical conception and birth.
Your previous post on the Bible was, by the way, quite excellent.
It has nothing to do with her physical conception and birth.
Your previous post on the Bible was, by the way, quite excellent.
To Ted, with love
Valerie100 wrote: Do you really think that Jesus would marry a reformed prostitute? No, but MM is never referred to in the Bible as a prostitute, nor having been one. She is rather described as having been possessed by demons, which Jesus drove out.
As far as their possible marriage, what nonsense! Still, there is very little - actually nothing - known of Jesus' young adulthood, and there was certainly plenty of time before His recorded ministry began during which He might have married. Unmarried rabbis were virtually unheard of then as now. But all of Christian tradition suggests that He chose a life of celibacy.
As far as their possible marriage, what nonsense! Still, there is very little - actually nothing - known of Jesus' young adulthood, and there was certainly plenty of time before His recorded ministry began during which He might have married. Unmarried rabbis were virtually unheard of then as now. But all of Christian tradition suggests that He chose a life of celibacy.
To Ted, with love
>>>Did Jesus marry Mary M???
The evidence certainly suggests this.
A rabbi of that day would not have been effective if he weren't married. Jesus was enormously popular with the working class, and, as such, effective, enough so that the hierarchy of the "church" viewed him enough of a threat to conspire with the ruling military govt. to have him arrested in a routine sweep of political dissidents, tried on trumped up charges, and summarily executed alongside common criminals.
Mary M's behaviors through all this were more that of a wife than a groupie.
The evidence certainly suggests this.
A rabbi of that day would not have been effective if he weren't married. Jesus was enormously popular with the working class, and, as such, effective, enough so that the hierarchy of the "church" viewed him enough of a threat to conspire with the ruling military govt. to have him arrested in a routine sweep of political dissidents, tried on trumped up charges, and summarily executed alongside common criminals.
Mary M's behaviors through all this were more that of a wife than a groupie.
To Ted, with love
TW2005:-6
It would seem to me that once we begin to think about quantum theory David Hume's arguments are no longer valid. After some extensive reading of quantum theory, I have absolutely no problem with the idea of miracles. In fact I have seen miracles and experienced them as well. So we do have miracles today. The greatest miracle of all is life itself.
Thanks to those who corrected my interpretation of the I. C.
One of the things that I forgot to mention and is an important part of Biblical literature is the extensive use of metaphor. The stories may be old but they still contain wisdom that is of value today. We must learn to discern the words of God from the very human words of the Bible.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It would seem to me that once we begin to think about quantum theory David Hume's arguments are no longer valid. After some extensive reading of quantum theory, I have absolutely no problem with the idea of miracles. In fact I have seen miracles and experienced them as well. So we do have miracles today. The greatest miracle of all is life itself.
Thanks to those who corrected my interpretation of the I. C.
One of the things that I forgot to mention and is an important part of Biblical literature is the extensive use of metaphor. The stories may be old but they still contain wisdom that is of value today. We must learn to discern the words of God from the very human words of the Bible.
Shalom
Ted:-6
To Ted, with love
theia:-6
I do think you are correct in your comments re mysticism. I consider myself to be a mystic and do accept many of the miracles in the Bible. However, there are a few such as the virgin birth that I find a stretch too far. It is actually based on a mistranslation of Isaiah. The ancient word that was used in "Behold a virgin shall . . . " is mistranslated and should had read a "young maiden".
In writing up the stories of Jesus birth the evangelists went back to the OT to find all the quotes that would indicate a reference to the coming messiah. This is part of the nature of midrash. Once they had decided that Jesus was in fact the Messiah they then wrote the story up including those "prophesies". This was not considered an attemt to deceive but the way in which profound truths were passed on.
The birth stories are midrashic. They are very beautiful and I wouldn't change them for anything. They present some very profound truths about this man Yeshua of Nazareth. Jesus was probably born in an upper room in Nazareth where his parents lived. (John Dominic Crossan) "Jesus An Eastern Mediterranean Jewish Peasant"
Jesus was a spirit person, a healer, an exrocist and a miracle worker. There seems little doubt of this. He was born a human being and thus suffered all of the same afflictions etc that all humans face though apparently he did not "sin". He became the Divine Son of God at his resurrection though some have suggested, and it is possible, at the transfiguration.
I think that it is also important that we remember that any talk of the Divine is very limited to our use of metaphor because we simply lack any language that can effectively deal with the Divine. Our language and our conceptualization abilities fall far short of what we need to accurately describe or define the Divine. Thus even the term "Son of God" is a metaphor.
Personally I can live with the use of metaphor. I have to. I have no other way to deal with the Divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I do think you are correct in your comments re mysticism. I consider myself to be a mystic and do accept many of the miracles in the Bible. However, there are a few such as the virgin birth that I find a stretch too far. It is actually based on a mistranslation of Isaiah. The ancient word that was used in "Behold a virgin shall . . . " is mistranslated and should had read a "young maiden".
In writing up the stories of Jesus birth the evangelists went back to the OT to find all the quotes that would indicate a reference to the coming messiah. This is part of the nature of midrash. Once they had decided that Jesus was in fact the Messiah they then wrote the story up including those "prophesies". This was not considered an attemt to deceive but the way in which profound truths were passed on.
The birth stories are midrashic. They are very beautiful and I wouldn't change them for anything. They present some very profound truths about this man Yeshua of Nazareth. Jesus was probably born in an upper room in Nazareth where his parents lived. (John Dominic Crossan) "Jesus An Eastern Mediterranean Jewish Peasant"
Jesus was a spirit person, a healer, an exrocist and a miracle worker. There seems little doubt of this. He was born a human being and thus suffered all of the same afflictions etc that all humans face though apparently he did not "sin". He became the Divine Son of God at his resurrection though some have suggested, and it is possible, at the transfiguration.
I think that it is also important that we remember that any talk of the Divine is very limited to our use of metaphor because we simply lack any language that can effectively deal with the Divine. Our language and our conceptualization abilities fall far short of what we need to accurately describe or define the Divine. Thus even the term "Son of God" is a metaphor.
Personally I can live with the use of metaphor. I have to. I have no other way to deal with the Divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
To Ted, with love
Valerie:-6
Would Jesus marry a reformed prostitute? Why not? She is as much a child of God as you or I.
"" Jesus' itinerant life precluded marriage and raising children. Loyalty to the Torah precluded adultery. But adultery was defined in Judaism as taking the wife of another, which, like seducing a maiden (who might become another's wife), is clearly forbidden (see Deuteronomy 22:22-29). But sexual contact with an unvarried woman who was not a virgin, particularly a sinner or a fomerly demon-possessed person, did not fall under the definition of adultery or seduction. There is no evidence that JEsus did or did not enjoy sexual contact during his life, but seven-demoned Miriam remains the most likely candidate if he did so, because she is the only woman apart from his mother, with whom he had persistent contact." P 145 "Rabbi Jesus" by Bruce Chilton.
I am usually in the habit of giving sources for my comments. However, due to developing blindness I have been a little sloppy. I usually quote from the scholars often because I cannot claim all of my thoughts to be original. I make it a habit of taking courses and discussing ideas with well known scholars. I will try to clean up my act in this respect.
I highly recomment works by John Dominic Crossan, John Spong, Matthew Fox, Bruce Chilton and many others.
"Rabbi Paul" by B Chilton is also an excellent read.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Would Jesus marry a reformed prostitute? Why not? She is as much a child of God as you or I.
"" Jesus' itinerant life precluded marriage and raising children. Loyalty to the Torah precluded adultery. But adultery was defined in Judaism as taking the wife of another, which, like seducing a maiden (who might become another's wife), is clearly forbidden (see Deuteronomy 22:22-29). But sexual contact with an unvarried woman who was not a virgin, particularly a sinner or a fomerly demon-possessed person, did not fall under the definition of adultery or seduction. There is no evidence that JEsus did or did not enjoy sexual contact during his life, but seven-demoned Miriam remains the most likely candidate if he did so, because she is the only woman apart from his mother, with whom he had persistent contact." P 145 "Rabbi Jesus" by Bruce Chilton.
I am usually in the habit of giving sources for my comments. However, due to developing blindness I have been a little sloppy. I usually quote from the scholars often because I cannot claim all of my thoughts to be original. I make it a habit of taking courses and discussing ideas with well known scholars. I will try to clean up my act in this respect.
I highly recomment works by John Dominic Crossan, John Spong, Matthew Fox, Bruce Chilton and many others.
"Rabbi Paul" by B Chilton is also an excellent read.
Shalom
Ted:-6
To Ted, with love
Ted wrote: theia:-6
I do think you are correct in your comments re mysticism. I consider myself to be a mystic and do accept many of the miracles in the Bible. However, there are a few such as the virgin birth that I find a stretch too far. It is actually based on a mistranslation of Isaiah. The ancient word that was used in "Behold a virgin shall . . . " is mistranslated and should had read a "young maiden".
In writing up the stories of Jesus birth the evangelists went back to the OT to find all the quotes that would indicate a reference to the coming messiah. This is part of the nature of midrash. Once they had decided that Jesus was in fact the Messiah they then wrote the story up including those "prophesies". This was not considered an attemt to deceive but the way in which profound truths were passed on.
The birth stories are midrashic. They are very beautiful and I wouldn't change them for anything. They present some very profound truths about this man Yeshua of Nazareth. Jesus was probably born in an upper room in Nazareth where his parents lived. (John Dominic Crossan) "Jesus An Eastern Mediterranean Jewish Peasant"
Jesus was a spirit person, a healer, an exrocist and a miracle worker. There seems little doubt of this. He was born a human being and thus suffered all of the same afflictions etc that all humans face though apparently he did not "sin". He became the Divine Son of God at his resurrection though some have suggested, and it is possible, at the transfiguration.
I think that it is also important that we remember that any talk of the Divine is very limited to our use of metaphor because we simply lack any language that can effectively deal with the Divine. Our language and our conceptualization abilities fall far short of what we need to accurately describe or define the Divine. Thus even the term "Son of God" is a metaphor.
Personally I can live with the use of metaphor. I have to. I have no other way to deal with the Divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
a virgin simply meant unmarried in those times. Not necessarily that she had not had sexual intercourse.
I do think you are correct in your comments re mysticism. I consider myself to be a mystic and do accept many of the miracles in the Bible. However, there are a few such as the virgin birth that I find a stretch too far. It is actually based on a mistranslation of Isaiah. The ancient word that was used in "Behold a virgin shall . . . " is mistranslated and should had read a "young maiden".
In writing up the stories of Jesus birth the evangelists went back to the OT to find all the quotes that would indicate a reference to the coming messiah. This is part of the nature of midrash. Once they had decided that Jesus was in fact the Messiah they then wrote the story up including those "prophesies". This was not considered an attemt to deceive but the way in which profound truths were passed on.
The birth stories are midrashic. They are very beautiful and I wouldn't change them for anything. They present some very profound truths about this man Yeshua of Nazareth. Jesus was probably born in an upper room in Nazareth where his parents lived. (John Dominic Crossan) "Jesus An Eastern Mediterranean Jewish Peasant"
Jesus was a spirit person, a healer, an exrocist and a miracle worker. There seems little doubt of this. He was born a human being and thus suffered all of the same afflictions etc that all humans face though apparently he did not "sin". He became the Divine Son of God at his resurrection though some have suggested, and it is possible, at the transfiguration.
I think that it is also important that we remember that any talk of the Divine is very limited to our use of metaphor because we simply lack any language that can effectively deal with the Divine. Our language and our conceptualization abilities fall far short of what we need to accurately describe or define the Divine. Thus even the term "Son of God" is a metaphor.
Personally I can live with the use of metaphor. I have to. I have no other way to deal with the Divine.
Shalom
Ted:-6
a virgin simply meant unmarried in those times. Not necessarily that she had not had sexual intercourse.
To Ted, with love
According to Vine, Strong , Young, and Anderson, Isaiah used the word '"almah",which is used in the Hebrew
Bible without prejudice as to a maiden's withoutt prejjudice as to a maiden's virginity.' The usual word for "virgin" is bethulah." P333, "Understanding the Old Testament", B W Anderson
According to Vine's dictionary the word " betulah" refers specifically to woman who has not had sexual intercourse. P 145, Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words" W,. E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr.
I only point this out to show that there were a few words that could be used. Actually there are other words with similar meanings or variations on the theme.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Bible without prejudice as to a maiden's withoutt prejjudice as to a maiden's virginity.' The usual word for "virgin" is bethulah." P333, "Understanding the Old Testament", B W Anderson
According to Vine's dictionary the word " betulah" refers specifically to woman who has not had sexual intercourse. P 145, Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words" W,. E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White, Jr.
I only point this out to show that there were a few words that could be used. Actually there are other words with similar meanings or variations on the theme.
Shalom
Ted:-6