I believe the "wall of separation" was a mere edict via legislation from the bench (Supreme Court) in 1947. How is it that we can't have prayer led in school, but our government officials can have prayer led in their government buildings?
Case in point: The Virginia General Assembly opened its current session on Friday, January 27, 2006 with a prayer led by an imam from Roanoke, Virginia.
http://www.roanoke.com/politics/wb/50237
Our federal House of Representatives and Senate open every day's business with a prayer led by a House or Senate Chaplain. Sometimes, guest clergy are allowed to lead those bodies in prayer. It is looked upon as a high honor for clergy in the field to be called upon in such a manner.
Is this askew, or am I living in the "Twilight Zone?" Why is this "wall of separation" enforced selectively?
Separation of Church and State?
Separation of Church and State?
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win" - Mahatma Gandhi
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nvalleyvee
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Separation of Church and State?
ChiptBeef wrote: I believe the "wall of separation" was a mere edict via legislation from the bench (Supreme Court) in 1947. How is it that we can't have led prayer in school, but our government officials can have led prayer in their government buildings?
Case in point: The Virginia General Assembly opened its current session on Friday, January 27, 2006 with a prayer led by a imam from Roanoke, Virginia.
http://www.roanoke.com/politics/wb/50237
Our federal House of Representatives and Senate open every days business with a prayer led by a House or Senate Chaplain. Sometimes, guest clergy are allowed to lead those bodies in prayer. It is looked upon as a high honor for clergy in the field to be called upon in such a manner.
Is this askew, or am I living in the "Twilight Zone?" Why is this "wall of separation" enforced selectively?
This is the sad state of our country. Can we agree or disagree. There is a flag in evey school room of this country. If it were my classroom - I would make everyone stand for the pledge. Most of the HS kids ignore the entire thing and it upsets me. I can't get over the fact that kids disrespect this country - the heck with a prayer.
Case in point: The Virginia General Assembly opened its current session on Friday, January 27, 2006 with a prayer led by a imam from Roanoke, Virginia.
http://www.roanoke.com/politics/wb/50237
Our federal House of Representatives and Senate open every days business with a prayer led by a House or Senate Chaplain. Sometimes, guest clergy are allowed to lead those bodies in prayer. It is looked upon as a high honor for clergy in the field to be called upon in such a manner.
Is this askew, or am I living in the "Twilight Zone?" Why is this "wall of separation" enforced selectively?
This is the sad state of our country. Can we agree or disagree. There is a flag in evey school room of this country. If it were my classroom - I would make everyone stand for the pledge. Most of the HS kids ignore the entire thing and it upsets me. I can't get over the fact that kids disrespect this country - the heck with a prayer.
The growth of knowledge depends entirely on disagreement..........Karl R. Popper
Separation of Church and State?
nvalleyvee wrote: This is the sad state of our country. Can we agree or disagree. There is a flag in evey school room of this country. If it were my classroom - I would make everyone stand for the pledge. Most of the HS kids ignore the entire thing and it upsets me. I can't get over the fact that kids disrespect this country - the heck with a prayer.
I suppose that could be an internal question within the original intent of my first post in this thread. Abraham Lincoln once said "The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next." Will the current generation of children be the future Congressman, Congresswoman and Senators that don't pray to God and pledge allegiance to our flag in their chambers because of what they didn't learn in school?
I suppose that could be an internal question within the original intent of my first post in this thread. Abraham Lincoln once said "The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next." Will the current generation of children be the future Congressman, Congresswoman and Senators that don't pray to God and pledge allegiance to our flag in their chambers because of what they didn't learn in school?
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win" - Mahatma Gandhi
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
Congress has chaplains. They pray before starting business. The President places his hand on a Bible to be sworn in "So Help Me God." Every courtroom in America has witnesses place their left hand on the Bible to swear to tell the truth before testifying (although they may have stopped this practice).
Congress has not established a religion, per the Constitution. Congress, or at least state legistations, have established law limiting or prohibiting religious exercise, in direct violation of the Constitution.
The Constution of the United States is becoming a de facto List of Founders' Recommendations.
Congress has not established a religion, per the Constitution. Congress, or at least state legistations, have established law limiting or prohibiting religious exercise, in direct violation of the Constitution.
The Constution of the United States is becoming a de facto List of Founders' Recommendations.
Separation of Church and State?
ChiptBeef wrote: I believe the "wall of separation" was a mere edict via legislation from the bench (Supreme Court) in 1947. How is it that we can't have prayer led in school, but our government officials can have prayer led in their government buildings?
How is it that you, one of the most hateful, dishonest people ever to post on the Internet, would want religion merged with public entities? Oh, yeah: If you believe that Jesus was the messiah, you go to heaven, and it doesn’t matter if you’re a decent person otherwise. I answered my own question.
How is it that you, one of the most hateful, dishonest people ever to post on the Internet, would want religion merged with public entities? Oh, yeah: If you believe that Jesus was the messiah, you go to heaven, and it doesn’t matter if you’re a decent person otherwise. I answered my own question.
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chonsigirl
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Separation of Church and State?
ChiptBeef wrote: I suppose that could be an internal question within the original intent of my first post in this thread. Abraham Lincoln once said "The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next." Will the current generation of children be the future Congressman, Congresswoman and Senators that don't pray to God and pledge allegiance to our flag in their chambers because of what they didn't learn in school?
They say the Pledge of Allegiance every day in school. We are not allowed to say a prayer in public school.
They say the Pledge of Allegiance every day in school. We are not allowed to say a prayer in public school.
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
Benjamin wrote: How is it that you, one of the most hateful, dishonest people ever to post on the Internet, would want religion merged with public entities? Oh, yeah: If you believe that Jesus was the messiah, you go to heaven, and it doesn’t matter if you’re a decent person otherwise. I answered my own question.
Your post seems pretty hateful as well.
Your post seems pretty hateful as well.
Separation of Church and State?
Benjamin wrote: How is it that you, one of the most hateful, dishonest people ever to post on the Internet, would want religion merged with public entities? Oh, yeah: If you believe that Jesus was the messiah, you go to heaven, and it doesn’t matter if you’re a decent person otherwise. I answered my own question.
That was uncalled for Benjamin. This is a forum for open discussion and debate - NOT INFLAMMATORY PERSONAL REMARKS.
Let's keep it civilized, shall we.
That was uncalled for Benjamin. This is a forum for open discussion and debate - NOT INFLAMMATORY PERSONAL REMARKS.
Let's keep it civilized, shall we.
Separation of Church and State?
what is a country? borders or people? prayer/faith is a personal right/choice an enlightened country or state should preseve this status rather than impose it's will upon it's (supposedly free) citizens.
Separation of Church and State?
I do not believe that there is a separation of church and state in the USA, certainly not whilst the present incumbent of the White House says he has a direct line to god.
"I have done my duty. I thank God for it!"
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
The federal government has established no religion. There is separation of church and state.
Is there separation of religious moral values from the president? Probably, but there shouldn't be.
Is anybody able to explain to me what danger has come about as a result of religious American citizens joining together to influence politics? I haven't seen it, but I'm ready to be enlightened.
Is there separation of religious moral values from the president? Probably, but there shouldn't be.
Is anybody able to explain to me what danger has come about as a result of religious American citizens joining together to influence politics? I haven't seen it, but I'm ready to be enlightened.
Separation of Church and State?
ChiptBeef wrote: 1. I believe the "wall of separation" was a mere edict via legislation from the bench (Supreme Court) in 1947.
2. How is it that we can't have prayer led in school, but our government officials can have prayer led in their government buildings?1. Chipper, the 'wall of separation' goes back to Jefferson. I'm not sure exactly what happened in '47 that you're referring to; maybe you can enlighten me.
2. The difference is that government officials are adults, old enough, hopefully, to have formed their own ideas about their religious preferences. Nor are the prayers in government buildings particularly sectarian. They are usually led by a rotation of clergymen of various faiths, each attempting to make his/her invocation as non-denominational as possible. These prayers are, in fact, a tribute to the USA's history of religious freedom and tolerance.
Schools are a different thing entirely. Here the possibility of proselytizing is overwhelming, almost unavoidable. Many attempts have been made to write a universally acceptable prayer, always with negative, sometimes even laughable, results. It's just not possible. Let the kids pray privately or send them to a church-affiliated school.
Bothwell wrote: I do not believe that there is a separation of church and state in the USA, certainly not whilst the present incumbent of the White House says he has a direct line to god.That is not an establishment of religion. Most of our presidents have been religious men, who undoubtedly asked the Lord for guidance. As far as I know, the only three presidents who were not Church members were Jefferson, Lincoln, and Reagan, the two great libertarians and the one great nincompoop.
We can only hope that that 'direct line' will yield better results in the next three years than have been evident in the last five.
2. How is it that we can't have prayer led in school, but our government officials can have prayer led in their government buildings?1. Chipper, the 'wall of separation' goes back to Jefferson. I'm not sure exactly what happened in '47 that you're referring to; maybe you can enlighten me.
2. The difference is that government officials are adults, old enough, hopefully, to have formed their own ideas about their religious preferences. Nor are the prayers in government buildings particularly sectarian. They are usually led by a rotation of clergymen of various faiths, each attempting to make his/her invocation as non-denominational as possible. These prayers are, in fact, a tribute to the USA's history of religious freedom and tolerance.
Schools are a different thing entirely. Here the possibility of proselytizing is overwhelming, almost unavoidable. Many attempts have been made to write a universally acceptable prayer, always with negative, sometimes even laughable, results. It's just not possible. Let the kids pray privately or send them to a church-affiliated school.
Bothwell wrote: I do not believe that there is a separation of church and state in the USA, certainly not whilst the present incumbent of the White House says he has a direct line to god.That is not an establishment of religion. Most of our presidents have been religious men, who undoubtedly asked the Lord for guidance. As far as I know, the only three presidents who were not Church members were Jefferson, Lincoln, and Reagan, the two great libertarians and the one great nincompoop.
We can only hope that that 'direct line' will yield better results in the next three years than have been evident in the last five.
Separation of Church and State?
Bronwen wrote: Schools are a different thing entirely. Here the possibility of proselytizing is overwhelming, almost unavoidable. Many attempts have been made to write a universally acceptable prayer, always with negative, sometimes even laughable, results. It's just not possible. Let the kids pray privately or send them to a church-affiliated school.
Very Well said, Bronwen.
I get parents all the time telling me that "We should be teaching religion in schools."
OK. What religion should we teach? Buddhism? Hinduism? Islam?
Oh, of course! “In God We Trust!†It’s got to be Christianity! Farmington is overwhelmingly Christian after all. (Although I do know a very nice Hindu family, aren't they an important part of our little town?)
Fine, which version of Christianity should we teach? Lutheran? Presbyterian? Baptist? Methodist? Catholic? (It is the oldest after all) Are Mormans Christian? Are you starting to get my point? No matter what the schools did, they'd never please everybody.
Perhaps they’re worried that Christian values and morals aren’t being taught to young people. They shouldn’t worry another second. Every teacher I've ever met has modeled and practiced nothing but the best of Christian virtues: honesty, integrity, respect, and dignity.
But who will teach religion if not the schools, you ask? Simple. The family and the Church. Who better to teach these things than the people that care the most about the children, their parents. Where better to learn than the Church?
The Pilgrims came to America because they didn't like their religion being controlled and dictated by the state. George Washington didn't like it. Thomas Jefferson didn't like it. Trust me, you won't like it either.
As to the saying of prayers beginning events such as congress or even a football game. I agree, that is a part of our shared heritage and is not proselytizing.
Very Well said, Bronwen.
I get parents all the time telling me that "We should be teaching religion in schools."
OK. What religion should we teach? Buddhism? Hinduism? Islam?
Oh, of course! “In God We Trust!†It’s got to be Christianity! Farmington is overwhelmingly Christian after all. (Although I do know a very nice Hindu family, aren't they an important part of our little town?)
Fine, which version of Christianity should we teach? Lutheran? Presbyterian? Baptist? Methodist? Catholic? (It is the oldest after all) Are Mormans Christian? Are you starting to get my point? No matter what the schools did, they'd never please everybody.
Perhaps they’re worried that Christian values and morals aren’t being taught to young people. They shouldn’t worry another second. Every teacher I've ever met has modeled and practiced nothing but the best of Christian virtues: honesty, integrity, respect, and dignity.
But who will teach religion if not the schools, you ask? Simple. The family and the Church. Who better to teach these things than the people that care the most about the children, their parents. Where better to learn than the Church?
The Pilgrims came to America because they didn't like their religion being controlled and dictated by the state. George Washington didn't like it. Thomas Jefferson didn't like it. Trust me, you won't like it either.
As to the saying of prayers beginning events such as congress or even a football game. I agree, that is a part of our shared heritage and is not proselytizing.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
Separation of Church and State?
Jives wrote: Very Well said, Bronwen.
I get parents all the time telling me that "We should be teaching religion in schools."
OK. What religion should we teach? Buddhism? Hinduism? Islam?
Oh, of course! “In God We Trust!†It’s got to be Christianity! Farmington is overwhelmingly Christian after all. (Although I do know a very nice Hindu family, aren't they an important part of our little town?)
Fine, which version of Christianity should we teach? Lutheran? Presbyterian? Baptist? Methodist? Catholic? (It is the oldest after all) Are Mormans Christian? Are you starting to get my point? No matter what the schools did, they'd never please everybody.
Perhaps they’re worried that Christian values and morals aren’t being taught to young people. They shouldn’t worry another second. Every teacher I've ever met has modeled and practiced nothing but the best of Christian virtues: honesty, integrity, respect, and dignity.
But who will teach religion if not the schools, you ask? Simple. The family and the Church. Who better to teach these things than the people that care the most about the children, their parents. Where better to learn than the Church?
The Pilgrims came to America because they didn't like their religion being controlled and dictated by the state. George Washington didn't like it. Thomas Jefferson didn't like it. Trust me, you won't like it either.
As to the saying of prayers beginning events such as congress or even a football game. I agree, that is a part of our shared heritage and is not proselytizing.Let me hasten to return the compliment. I agree wholeheartedly, while noting that the football game situation is perhaps marginal.
Jives, several years ago, I wrote something on the subject that I thought was at least mildly humorous and posted it on another forum. The response was absolutely UNDERwhelming; in fact, there was no response at all. Maybe it will be equally as poorly received here, but for better or worse, here 'tis:PRAYER RETURNS TO THE CLASSROOM
The year: 2008. The Supreme Court of the United States, led by new members Jeb Bush and Neal Bush, have just voted 5-4 to restore prayer to the nation's public schools, so long as one religion is not favored over another. The other new justice, George Bush senior, voted with the dissenters, saying that he was 'not gonna do it', and that it 'wouldn't be prudent at this junk-chur'. He was right, of course. Right, but outvoted.
The place: Beatrice Taylor Memorial Elementary School in Horse's Patoot, North Carolina. Principal Horace Clodfelter has decreed that each morning each student in each classroom can take his/her turn leading the class in prayer. Anyone who doesn't want to participate can take their atheist ass to the cloakroom and STAND IN THE CORNER!
Monday morning comes...the dawn of a new era. Sitting in row one, seat one, and therefore the first to lead the class in prayer, is little Achmed Arcee Khola, a fundamentalist Muslim. Horse's Patoot is not big enough for a full-sized mosque, but there's a little mosquito on Main Street, where Achmed's dad, Akbar, is the Moo-lah. Achmed solemnly walks to the front of the classroom, strips off his shirt, starts beating himself with a whip, and leads the class in a rousing chorus of 'Death to America!'
Holy Shiite! What a way to start the week!
On Tuesday morning things are toned down considerably as cute li'l Wendy Wingnut, whose mama Wanda is a Wiccan, leads the class in a prayer to the earth goddess.
On Wednesday it's the turn of little Nick Scratch, whose family are all Satanists. Nick walks to the pulpit, flips the teacher the bird, and intones an obscene parody of the Lord's Prayer.
What the hell! I had no idea there were so many different versions of religion in small-town America!
On Thursday the Christians finally get their turn. Little Klem Klodhopper, whose paw, Klaude, is Inferior Lizard of the town's Kook Kluck Klan chapter, leads the class in a prayer asking God to smite all Catholics, Jews, and Nigras. Especially Nigras.
Holy mackerel, Andy, what a week! Friday finally arrives, and not a day too soon.
Today's pray-er is little Zackery Zark, whose dad Noah heads up the local doomsday cult. Noah's been building a spaceship in his backyard for about a year now, making it out of particle board, dacron, spit, vinegar, and 'go-fer wood'. (He made Zack and his little brother Zeke go fer the wood with their Radio Flyer). Zack's 'prayer' consists of an invitation to all his classmates and their families to bring all their worldly posessions, especially their animals, to his back yard next Sunday night, 'right after "60 Minutes"', when his dad has calculated the End of the World (as we know it...or for that matter as anyone knows it) will take place. The space ship will take them up to the mother ship, which in turn will take them all to heaven. According to Zack, this is an absolute certainty, with no possible margin for error. 'Pa ain't no Charlie Russell', says Zack, 'and he sure as hell ain't no Ellen White!'
All in all, it was just another week at 'Aunt Bea Elementary', with one important difference: Prayer is back in the classroom, and all's right with the world...at least until Sunday night after "60 Minutes".
- - - - -
The purpose of this lame little exercise in sick humor is to hammer home the point that most people who say they want prayer in public schools really don't. They want only their brand of prayer, to the exclusion of all others, and it ain't gonna happen folks, not in 21st century America, and not with groups like the ACLU, People for the American Way, and Americans United for Separation of Church and State on guard. Long may they wave, and please forgive the mixed metaphor.
Have a nice weekend, ev'rybody! Don't forget to worship at the Church, Synagogue, Mosque, Coven, Klavern or Hellhole of your choice.Noah Zark...get it? Oh well...
I get parents all the time telling me that "We should be teaching religion in schools."
OK. What religion should we teach? Buddhism? Hinduism? Islam?
Oh, of course! “In God We Trust!†It’s got to be Christianity! Farmington is overwhelmingly Christian after all. (Although I do know a very nice Hindu family, aren't they an important part of our little town?)
Fine, which version of Christianity should we teach? Lutheran? Presbyterian? Baptist? Methodist? Catholic? (It is the oldest after all) Are Mormans Christian? Are you starting to get my point? No matter what the schools did, they'd never please everybody.
Perhaps they’re worried that Christian values and morals aren’t being taught to young people. They shouldn’t worry another second. Every teacher I've ever met has modeled and practiced nothing but the best of Christian virtues: honesty, integrity, respect, and dignity.
But who will teach religion if not the schools, you ask? Simple. The family and the Church. Who better to teach these things than the people that care the most about the children, their parents. Where better to learn than the Church?
The Pilgrims came to America because they didn't like their religion being controlled and dictated by the state. George Washington didn't like it. Thomas Jefferson didn't like it. Trust me, you won't like it either.
As to the saying of prayers beginning events such as congress or even a football game. I agree, that is a part of our shared heritage and is not proselytizing.Let me hasten to return the compliment. I agree wholeheartedly, while noting that the football game situation is perhaps marginal.
Jives, several years ago, I wrote something on the subject that I thought was at least mildly humorous and posted it on another forum. The response was absolutely UNDERwhelming; in fact, there was no response at all. Maybe it will be equally as poorly received here, but for better or worse, here 'tis:PRAYER RETURNS TO THE CLASSROOM
The year: 2008. The Supreme Court of the United States, led by new members Jeb Bush and Neal Bush, have just voted 5-4 to restore prayer to the nation's public schools, so long as one religion is not favored over another. The other new justice, George Bush senior, voted with the dissenters, saying that he was 'not gonna do it', and that it 'wouldn't be prudent at this junk-chur'. He was right, of course. Right, but outvoted.
The place: Beatrice Taylor Memorial Elementary School in Horse's Patoot, North Carolina. Principal Horace Clodfelter has decreed that each morning each student in each classroom can take his/her turn leading the class in prayer. Anyone who doesn't want to participate can take their atheist ass to the cloakroom and STAND IN THE CORNER!
Monday morning comes...the dawn of a new era. Sitting in row one, seat one, and therefore the first to lead the class in prayer, is little Achmed Arcee Khola, a fundamentalist Muslim. Horse's Patoot is not big enough for a full-sized mosque, but there's a little mosquito on Main Street, where Achmed's dad, Akbar, is the Moo-lah. Achmed solemnly walks to the front of the classroom, strips off his shirt, starts beating himself with a whip, and leads the class in a rousing chorus of 'Death to America!'
Holy Shiite! What a way to start the week!
On Tuesday morning things are toned down considerably as cute li'l Wendy Wingnut, whose mama Wanda is a Wiccan, leads the class in a prayer to the earth goddess.
On Wednesday it's the turn of little Nick Scratch, whose family are all Satanists. Nick walks to the pulpit, flips the teacher the bird, and intones an obscene parody of the Lord's Prayer.
What the hell! I had no idea there were so many different versions of religion in small-town America!
On Thursday the Christians finally get their turn. Little Klem Klodhopper, whose paw, Klaude, is Inferior Lizard of the town's Kook Kluck Klan chapter, leads the class in a prayer asking God to smite all Catholics, Jews, and Nigras. Especially Nigras.
Holy mackerel, Andy, what a week! Friday finally arrives, and not a day too soon.
Today's pray-er is little Zackery Zark, whose dad Noah heads up the local doomsday cult. Noah's been building a spaceship in his backyard for about a year now, making it out of particle board, dacron, spit, vinegar, and 'go-fer wood'. (He made Zack and his little brother Zeke go fer the wood with their Radio Flyer). Zack's 'prayer' consists of an invitation to all his classmates and their families to bring all their worldly posessions, especially their animals, to his back yard next Sunday night, 'right after "60 Minutes"', when his dad has calculated the End of the World (as we know it...or for that matter as anyone knows it) will take place. The space ship will take them up to the mother ship, which in turn will take them all to heaven. According to Zack, this is an absolute certainty, with no possible margin for error. 'Pa ain't no Charlie Russell', says Zack, 'and he sure as hell ain't no Ellen White!'
All in all, it was just another week at 'Aunt Bea Elementary', with one important difference: Prayer is back in the classroom, and all's right with the world...at least until Sunday night after "60 Minutes".
- - - - -
The purpose of this lame little exercise in sick humor is to hammer home the point that most people who say they want prayer in public schools really don't. They want only their brand of prayer, to the exclusion of all others, and it ain't gonna happen folks, not in 21st century America, and not with groups like the ACLU, People for the American Way, and Americans United for Separation of Church and State on guard. Long may they wave, and please forgive the mixed metaphor.
Have a nice weekend, ev'rybody! Don't forget to worship at the Church, Synagogue, Mosque, Coven, Klavern or Hellhole of your choice.Noah Zark...get it? Oh well...
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
Bronwen wrote: [...]
That is not an establishment of religion. Most of our presidents have been religious men, who undoubtedly asked the Lord for guidance. As far as I know, the only three presidents who were not Church members were Jefferson, Lincoln, and Reagan, the two great libertarians and the one great nincompoop.
[...]
I think Lincoln was hardly a nincompoop. :rolleyes:
That is not an establishment of religion. Most of our presidents have been religious men, who undoubtedly asked the Lord for guidance. As far as I know, the only three presidents who were not Church members were Jefferson, Lincoln, and Reagan, the two great libertarians and the one great nincompoop.
[...]
I think Lincoln was hardly a nincompoop. :rolleyes:
Separation of Church and State?
Accountable wrote: The federal government has established no religion. There is separation of church and state.
Is there separation of religious moral values from the president? Probably, but there shouldn't be.
Is anybody able to explain to me what danger has come about as a result of religious American citizens joining together to influence politics? I haven't seen it, but I'm ready to be enlightened.
gay marriage? or rather, no gay marriage?
Is there separation of religious moral values from the president? Probably, but there shouldn't be.
Is anybody able to explain to me what danger has come about as a result of religious American citizens joining together to influence politics? I haven't seen it, but I'm ready to be enlightened.
gay marriage? or rather, no gay marriage?
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
hotsauce wrote: gay marriage? or rather, no gay marriage?
That's been virtually worldwide for hundreds of years. Also, what danger?
That's been virtually worldwide for hundreds of years. Also, what danger?
Separation of Church and State?
I feel that it is dangerous to a homosexual couple's mental health and their spirits. Do you feel that is stretching it? You may. I think it is wrong and damaging to not give them the same freedoms that a man and woman wanting to share the same commintment can have.
Separation of Church and State?
Accountable wrote: I think Lincoln was hardly a nincompoop. :rolleyes:
*whispers* I don't think that was directed at Lincoln...
*whispers* I don't think that was directed at Lincoln...
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
Blackjack wrote: *whispers* I don't think that was directed at Lincoln...
Ohhh?? :-2
Ohhh. :-3
Ohh!
*snicker*
Ohhh?? :-2
Ohhh. :-3
Ohh!
*snicker*
Separation of Church and State?
Bronwen wrote: Let me hasten to return the compliment. I agree wholeheartedly, while noting that the football game situation is perhaps marginal.
Jives, several years ago, I wrote something on the subject that I thought was at least mildly humorous and posted it on another forum. The response was absolutely UNDERwhelming; in fact, there was no response at all. Maybe it will be equally as poorly received here, but for better or worse, here 'tis:Noah Zark...get it? Oh well...
That was absolutely hilarious! I loved it! Maybe I can send that to ur local paper!:wah:
Jives, several years ago, I wrote something on the subject that I thought was at least mildly humorous and posted it on another forum. The response was absolutely UNDERwhelming; in fact, there was no response at all. Maybe it will be equally as poorly received here, but for better or worse, here 'tis:Noah Zark...get it? Oh well...
That was absolutely hilarious! I loved it! Maybe I can send that to ur local paper!:wah:
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
hotsauce wrote: I feel that it is dangerous to a homosexual couple's mental health and their spirits. Do you feel that is stretching it? You may. I think it is wrong and damaging to not give them the same freedoms that a man and woman wanting to share the same commintment can have.
They do have the same freedoms. Any man can marry any woman.
I think it the time is passed for the government use tax incentives to encourage procreation. We are not agricultural any more. People constantly complain about overpopulation. Marriage should no longer be a legal reality. Churches can continue to support it for moral reasons, as is right and appropriate.
That would level that part of the playing field for homosexuals and heterosexuals.
They do have the same freedoms. Any man can marry any woman.
I think it the time is passed for the government use tax incentives to encourage procreation. We are not agricultural any more. People constantly complain about overpopulation. Marriage should no longer be a legal reality. Churches can continue to support it for moral reasons, as is right and appropriate.
That would level that part of the playing field for homosexuals and heterosexuals.
Separation of Church and State?
I don't know if politics is taught in schools in the USA. It wasn't when I was at school and as far as I know, it still isn't. Politics would be a branch of social science which is taught at a higher level and preferably without bias.
Religion should be taught in the same manner. It should cover every religion including those that have receded to nothing insofar as they also formed a oart of human spiritual development. Again, there should be no bias.
Religious choice is a personal matter and will be heavily weighted to the attitude of the family and community. However, unbiased education could actually help everyone to become more tolerant of other people's faiths.
It is not surprising that religion is taught at schools since it was the churches that started schooling in the first place with the prime purpose of educating the children in the faith.
Religion should be taught in the same manner. It should cover every religion including those that have receded to nothing insofar as they also formed a oart of human spiritual development. Again, there should be no bias.
Religious choice is a personal matter and will be heavily weighted to the attitude of the family and community. However, unbiased education could actually help everyone to become more tolerant of other people's faiths.
It is not surprising that religion is taught at schools since it was the churches that started schooling in the first place with the prime purpose of educating the children in the faith.
Separation of Church and State?
OpenMind wrote: 1. I don't know if politics is taught in schools in the USA. It wasn't when I was at school and as far as I know, it still isn't. Politics would be a branch of social science which is taught at a higher level and preferably without bias.
2. Religion should be taught in the same manner. It should cover every religion including those that have receded to nothing insofar as they also formed a oart of human spiritual development. Again, there should be no bias.1. I went to school in the USA a LONG time ago, and civics was indeed taught there. I'm not sure to what extent it got into partisan politics, but the principles of government were covered at all levels from local to federal.
2. In some countries that might be possible. You could never get away with it in the PUBLIC schools of the USA, where there is, as discussed earlier, a 'wall of separation'.
2. Religion should be taught in the same manner. It should cover every religion including those that have receded to nothing insofar as they also formed a oart of human spiritual development. Again, there should be no bias.1. I went to school in the USA a LONG time ago, and civics was indeed taught there. I'm not sure to what extent it got into partisan politics, but the principles of government were covered at all levels from local to federal.
2. In some countries that might be possible. You could never get away with it in the PUBLIC schools of the USA, where there is, as discussed earlier, a 'wall of separation'.
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
Bronwen wrote: 1. I went to school in the USA a LONG time ago, and civics was indeed taught there. I'm not sure to what extent it got into partisan politics, but the principles of government were covered at all levels from local to federal.
2. In some countries that might be possible. You could never get away with it in the PUBLIC schools of the USA, where there is, as discussed earlier, a 'wall of separation'.
This religion-phobia that has people frothing at the mouth is laughable. It's as if knowledge of religion is tantamount to fanatical worship - like religion is a dangerous addictive drug equal to heroin or worse.
Education about religion is not state-run religion. Ignorance about the world's religions is far more dangerous.
2. In some countries that might be possible. You could never get away with it in the PUBLIC schools of the USA, where there is, as discussed earlier, a 'wall of separation'.
This religion-phobia that has people frothing at the mouth is laughable. It's as if knowledge of religion is tantamount to fanatical worship - like religion is a dangerous addictive drug equal to heroin or worse.
Education about religion is not state-run religion. Ignorance about the world's religions is far more dangerous.
Separation of Church and State?
Accountable wrote: This religion-phobia that has people frothing at the mouth is laughable. It's as if knowledge of religion is tantamount to fanatical worship - like religion is a dangerous addictive drug equal to heroin or worse.
Education about religion is not state-run religion. Ignorance about the world's religions is far more dangerous.
Ignorance about religion isn't dangerous. Unless ignorance of martians is dangerous. Or ignorance of ghosts. Or ignorance of vampires. They're all in the same category of irrational beliefs.
The problem with religion is people want to impose their beliefs on others. Look at all the people who have been killed in the attempts at converting them to Christianity. No, religion has no place in schools unless it is taught as a culture or history class where students take an objective look at the influence of religion as well as the beliefs.
Another problem with religion is that some people think their better than others just because they are of a certain religion. Still others believe that as long as they believe in Jesus, everything else they do in life is irrelevant, no matter how bad.
Religion is basically blind faith. And blind faith is dangerous.
Education about religion is not state-run religion. Ignorance about the world's religions is far more dangerous.
Ignorance about religion isn't dangerous. Unless ignorance of martians is dangerous. Or ignorance of ghosts. Or ignorance of vampires. They're all in the same category of irrational beliefs.
The problem with religion is people want to impose their beliefs on others. Look at all the people who have been killed in the attempts at converting them to Christianity. No, religion has no place in schools unless it is taught as a culture or history class where students take an objective look at the influence of religion as well as the beliefs.
Another problem with religion is that some people think their better than others just because they are of a certain religion. Still others believe that as long as they believe in Jesus, everything else they do in life is irrelevant, no matter how bad.
Religion is basically blind faith. And blind faith is dangerous.
Separation of Church and State?
Benjamin wrote: Ignorance about religion isn't dangerous. Unless ignorance of martians is dangerous. Or ignorance of ghosts. Or ignorance of vampires. They're all in the same category of irrational beliefs.
Obviously, Benjamin has never had a serious crisis in his life. Otherwise he'd know "there are no atheists in foxholes!"
Religion is basically blind faith. And blind faith is dangerous.
When you are lying in your deathbed, knowing that you have only hours to live, and you're wondering what's going to happen to you after you die...I want you to say that again.
Faith is a good thing, Benjamin, maybe the best of things.
Obviously, Benjamin has never had a serious crisis in his life. Otherwise he'd know "there are no atheists in foxholes!"
Religion is basically blind faith. And blind faith is dangerous.
When you are lying in your deathbed, knowing that you have only hours to live, and you're wondering what's going to happen to you after you die...I want you to say that again.
Faith is a good thing, Benjamin, maybe the best of things.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
Benjamin wrote: Ignorance about religion isn't dangerous. Unless ignorance of martians is dangerous. Or ignorance of ghosts. Or ignorance of vampires. They're all in the same category of irrational beliefs.
How about ignorance of radical muslims?
Benjamin wrote: The problem with religion is people want to impose their beliefs on others. Look at all the people who have been killed in the attempts at converting them to Christianity. No, religion has no place in schools unless it is taught as a culture or history class where students take an objective look at the influence of religion as well as the beliefs.
This is what I just posted, isn't it? That's education about religion.
Benjamin wrote: Another problem with religion is that some people think their better than others just because they are of a certain religion. Still others believe that as long as they believe in Jesus, everything else they do in life is irrelevant, no matter how bad.
Religion is basically blind faith. And blind faith is dangerous.So you think we should ban religion? That would make the world a better place??
How about ignorance of radical muslims?
Benjamin wrote: The problem with religion is people want to impose their beliefs on others. Look at all the people who have been killed in the attempts at converting them to Christianity. No, religion has no place in schools unless it is taught as a culture or history class where students take an objective look at the influence of religion as well as the beliefs.
This is what I just posted, isn't it? That's education about religion.
Benjamin wrote: Another problem with religion is that some people think their better than others just because they are of a certain religion. Still others believe that as long as they believe in Jesus, everything else they do in life is irrelevant, no matter how bad.
Religion is basically blind faith. And blind faith is dangerous.So you think we should ban religion? That would make the world a better place??
Separation of Church and State?
Jives wrote:
When you are lying in your deathbed, knowing that you have only hours to live, and you're wondering what's going to happen to you after you die...I want you to say that again.
When I'm lying on my deathbed I will take comfort in the fact that I will have lead a good life and was not a bad person. I certainly won't change the habit of a lifetime and become religious. I mean, I may be dying, but why would that make me a hypocrite?
If there is a God, would he really deny you entrance to heaven (or wherever) just because you didn't go to church, or pray to him? I'd have thought that he'd be grateful. I mean, I've never hassled him, never asked him for anything, I'm basically a good person, I spare a thought for others & I like to think of myself as a decent human being. So would he say 'Burn in hell Steve, you stayed at home and watched football on a Sunday when you should have been in church...'
When you are lying in your deathbed, knowing that you have only hours to live, and you're wondering what's going to happen to you after you die...I want you to say that again.
When I'm lying on my deathbed I will take comfort in the fact that I will have lead a good life and was not a bad person. I certainly won't change the habit of a lifetime and become religious. I mean, I may be dying, but why would that make me a hypocrite?
If there is a God, would he really deny you entrance to heaven (or wherever) just because you didn't go to church, or pray to him? I'd have thought that he'd be grateful. I mean, I've never hassled him, never asked him for anything, I'm basically a good person, I spare a thought for others & I like to think of myself as a decent human being. So would he say 'Burn in hell Steve, you stayed at home and watched football on a Sunday when you should have been in church...'
Separation of Church and State?
I see myself as a bit of an Agnostic really.
I can't discount the existence of a god, however unlikely it may sound. I don't believe in the Bible, especially the old testament, there is too much proof to the contrary. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus existed, but I would be surprised if he genuinely was the son of god and performed miracles and rose from the dead.
It's organised religion that I have a problem with I think, all religious scripts are ambiguous and open to interpretation, you can read into them what you like, this is where the danger comes into it. The majority of the followers of religions believe in interpretations of religious texts that are put forward by religious leaders e.g. The Pope in the Catholic faith and Imams in the Islamic faith. If these spiritual leaders have a certain agenda they can easily back it up with the odd section from the aforementioned, ambiguous religious scripture and it then becomes a situation where there are millions of people, each with an axe to grind, all based on the beliefs favoured by an individual or small group of people.
That concerns me.
I can't discount the existence of a god, however unlikely it may sound. I don't believe in the Bible, especially the old testament, there is too much proof to the contrary. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus existed, but I would be surprised if he genuinely was the son of god and performed miracles and rose from the dead.
It's organised religion that I have a problem with I think, all religious scripts are ambiguous and open to interpretation, you can read into them what you like, this is where the danger comes into it. The majority of the followers of religions believe in interpretations of religious texts that are put forward by religious leaders e.g. The Pope in the Catholic faith and Imams in the Islamic faith. If these spiritual leaders have a certain agenda they can easily back it up with the odd section from the aforementioned, ambiguous religious scripture and it then becomes a situation where there are millions of people, each with an axe to grind, all based on the beliefs favoured by an individual or small group of people.
That concerns me.
Separation of Church and State?
Bronwen wrote: Chipper, the 'wall of separation' goes back to Jefferson. I'm not sure exactly what happened in '47 that you're referring to; maybe you can enlighten me.
The first time the Supreme Court declared a "separation between church and state" in the First Amendment was in the 1947 case of Everson v. Board of Education: "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach."
The "wall of seperation" attributed to Jefferson was not in the Constitution, nor was it recorded in any debate during the Constitutional Convention or in congressional records surrounding the production of the First Amendment. It came out of a January 1802 letter from Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut replying to their concerns that a national level denomination was being formed. The relevant portion reads:
"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercis thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
The first time the Supreme Court declared a "separation between church and state" in the First Amendment was in the 1947 case of Everson v. Board of Education: "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach."
The "wall of seperation" attributed to Jefferson was not in the Constitution, nor was it recorded in any debate during the Constitutional Convention or in congressional records surrounding the production of the First Amendment. It came out of a January 1802 letter from Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut replying to their concerns that a national level denomination was being formed. The relevant portion reads:
"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercis thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win" - Mahatma Gandhi
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Accountable
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Far Rider wrote: ahahah level the playing field? is that what you think they want? benifits and tax breaks? I dont think so, I think they want to be legitimized in the public eye.
I don't care. That's the purvue of the church, not the gov't.
I don't care. That's the purvue of the church, not the gov't.
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Accountable
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Far Rider wrote: Hmmm, I'll have to think through the ramifications of that. But my gut says if we do allow churches to deetermine it then it will be as loose as anything else... multiple interpretations of marriage. Hmmmm. ok let me roll this around me peabrain.
There's multiple interpretations of lots of stuff. God Bless America! The only interpretation you can or should be able to affect is your church and your family.
We don't "allow" churches to do anything but steal from poor people without paying taxes. It is a church's responsibility to set morality parameters for her flock. In my mind, it's just that simple, and just that complicated.
It makes me sick that people in this country - and I assume in others as well - expect amoral politicians to legislate morality for everyone. That is not the job of our gov't. Our gov't is a protector, a guard dog. They work for us, not the other way round. Don't look to the dog for guidance [insert obvious joke here], look to the church. And if your church (generic you) isn't up to the task, find one that is or do it yourself.
There's multiple interpretations of lots of stuff. God Bless America! The only interpretation you can or should be able to affect is your church and your family.
We don't "allow" churches to do anything but steal from poor people without paying taxes. It is a church's responsibility to set morality parameters for her flock. In my mind, it's just that simple, and just that complicated.
It makes me sick that people in this country - and I assume in others as well - expect amoral politicians to legislate morality for everyone. That is not the job of our gov't. Our gov't is a protector, a guard dog. They work for us, not the other way round. Don't look to the dog for guidance [insert obvious joke here], look to the church. And if your church (generic you) isn't up to the task, find one that is or do it yourself.
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Accountable
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Slade1 wrote: When I'm lying on my deathbed I will take comfort in the fact that I will have lead a good life and was not a bad person. I certainly won't change the habit of a lifetime and become religious. I mean, I may be dying, but why would that make me a hypocrite?
If there is a God, would he really deny you entrance to heaven (or wherever) just because you didn't go to church, or pray to him? I'd have thought that he'd be grateful. I mean, I've never hassled him, never asked him for anything, I'm basically a good person, I spare a thought for others & I like to think of myself as a decent human being. So would he say 'Burn in hell Steve, you stayed at home and watched football on a Sunday when you should have been in church...'
Wow, it just hit me. We have free will! God won't force us into Heaven, but He'll let anybody in who asks.
What an epiphany.
If there is a God, would he really deny you entrance to heaven (or wherever) just because you didn't go to church, or pray to him? I'd have thought that he'd be grateful. I mean, I've never hassled him, never asked him for anything, I'm basically a good person, I spare a thought for others & I like to think of myself as a decent human being. So would he say 'Burn in hell Steve, you stayed at home and watched football on a Sunday when you should have been in church...'
Wow, it just hit me. We have free will! God won't force us into Heaven, but He'll let anybody in who asks.
What an epiphany.
Separation of Church and State?
Slade1 wrote: I would be surprised if he genuinely was the son of god and performed miracles and rose from the dead. That concerns me.
Take it from someone who has died before and returned to this life...prepare to be surprised.:rolleyes:
You missed my point totally. For me, death holds no fear...I have faith about what lies beyond. My faith comforts me and calms my soul. You have no such comfort.
For someone who is faithless, like yourself, death is just an ending.
I really find it hilarious that someone could actually go through this life, see the unbelievable things that are far to connected to be coincidence, gaze upon the stars of the heavens..and have no faith.
You must be going through life with a blindfold on.:wah:
Take it from someone who has died before and returned to this life...prepare to be surprised.:rolleyes:
You missed my point totally. For me, death holds no fear...I have faith about what lies beyond. My faith comforts me and calms my soul. You have no such comfort.
For someone who is faithless, like yourself, death is just an ending.
I really find it hilarious that someone could actually go through this life, see the unbelievable things that are far to connected to be coincidence, gaze upon the stars of the heavens..and have no faith.
You must be going through life with a blindfold on.:wah:
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare
Separation of Church and State?
Accountable wrote: 1. Education about religion is not state-run religion.
2. Ignorance about the world's religions is far more dangerous.1. You're right, and I wasn't claiming that that would violate the separation clause, only that Americans in general wouldn't stand for it at the primary level.
It's simply a fact that most 'believers', and probably unbelievers as well, want their children brought up in their own religion - or lack thereof. Also, as I mentioned previously, there would be a serious danger of proselytizing by the teacher.
At higher levels of education, as young people become able to make their own judgments about such things, courses in comparative religion at public institutions become more acceptable.
2. I'm not sure it's that dangerous in the primary grades.
2. Ignorance about the world's religions is far more dangerous.1. You're right, and I wasn't claiming that that would violate the separation clause, only that Americans in general wouldn't stand for it at the primary level.
It's simply a fact that most 'believers', and probably unbelievers as well, want their children brought up in their own religion - or lack thereof. Also, as I mentioned previously, there would be a serious danger of proselytizing by the teacher.
At higher levels of education, as young people become able to make their own judgments about such things, courses in comparative religion at public institutions become more acceptable.
2. I'm not sure it's that dangerous in the primary grades.
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
Bronwen wrote: 1. You're right, and I wasn't claiming that that would violate the separation clause, only that Americans in general wouldn't stand for it at the primary level.
It's simply a fact that most 'believers', and probably unbelievers as well, want their children brought up in their own religion - or lack thereof. Also, as I mentioned previously, there would be a serious danger of proselytizing by the teacher.
At higher levels of education, as young people become able to make their own judgments about such things, courses in comparative religion at public institutions become more acceptable.
2. I'm not sure it's that dangerous in the primary grades.
Sorry. I posted that more in support of your thread, rather than response.
It's simply a fact that most 'believers', and probably unbelievers as well, want their children brought up in their own religion - or lack thereof. Also, as I mentioned previously, there would be a serious danger of proselytizing by the teacher.
At higher levels of education, as young people become able to make their own judgments about such things, courses in comparative religion at public institutions become more acceptable.
2. I'm not sure it's that dangerous in the primary grades.
Sorry. I posted that more in support of your thread, rather than response.
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
Far Rider wrote: Yeah and the only thing holding iot together is the majority stand against same sex marriage. Which I personally thank God for.
I dont expect amoral politicians to legisltate morality, I expect them to follow the majority of their constituants morality, thus setting the general morality of our nation. Nice Idea huh!
So I think we're saying the same thing kinda sorta. :-3
I don't think marriage should have a legal standing. It's a moral/holy institution. Keep it in the church.
I thought about this as I was filling the truck. It's the second best place to think next to the shower:
Just like we are shirking our individual responsibilities and expecting the gov't to take care of us, we have allowed our churches to cede too much of their responsibility to the gov't. They are becoming defunct, useless. This is the erosion of the separation. The gov't is becoming the moral authority because we are marginalizing the church.
The government is becoming the de facto church.
We talk about the three branches of gov't - legislative, judicial, executive. I realized we have a fourth branch, the moral. We have separation between the legislative and judicial just as we have between the church and state. The moral branch is vital, and it is vital to keep it out of the legislature.
But this rabid phobia of anything religious has taken moral responsibility and either put it in the hands of politicians or (arguably worse) abandoned it altogether.
We need to take moral authority away from the politicians and give it back to the churches where it belongs.
And no, Ben, it doesn't mean everybody would be forced to go to church. Moral behavior begets moral behavior. Just as in the past, the churches can teach enough people to behave morally that it will permeate the rest of society.
I dont expect amoral politicians to legisltate morality, I expect them to follow the majority of their constituants morality, thus setting the general morality of our nation. Nice Idea huh!
So I think we're saying the same thing kinda sorta. :-3
I don't think marriage should have a legal standing. It's a moral/holy institution. Keep it in the church.
I thought about this as I was filling the truck. It's the second best place to think next to the shower:
Just like we are shirking our individual responsibilities and expecting the gov't to take care of us, we have allowed our churches to cede too much of their responsibility to the gov't. They are becoming defunct, useless. This is the erosion of the separation. The gov't is becoming the moral authority because we are marginalizing the church.
The government is becoming the de facto church.
We talk about the three branches of gov't - legislative, judicial, executive. I realized we have a fourth branch, the moral. We have separation between the legislative and judicial just as we have between the church and state. The moral branch is vital, and it is vital to keep it out of the legislature.
But this rabid phobia of anything religious has taken moral responsibility and either put it in the hands of politicians or (arguably worse) abandoned it altogether.
We need to take moral authority away from the politicians and give it back to the churches where it belongs.
And no, Ben, it doesn't mean everybody would be forced to go to church. Moral behavior begets moral behavior. Just as in the past, the churches can teach enough people to behave morally that it will permeate the rest of society.
Separation of Church and State?
And no, Ben, it doesn't mean everybody would be forced to go to church. Moral behavior begets moral behavior. Just as in the past, the churches can teach enough people to behave morally that it will permeate the rest of society.
Did you get your anti-Semitism from the church? [ Edit: this comment was made in error. Accountable has never made an anti-Semitic comment as far as I know. ]
Should we let the child-molester priests dictate morality? How about Pat Robertson? Now there’s a moral religious person. :wah:
We already get a lot of our moral laws from the Bible:
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16)
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17)
Not to wrong the stranger in buying or selling (Ex. 22:20)
Not to take part in any usurious transaction between borrower and lender, neither as a surety, nor as a witness, nor as a writer of the bond for them (Ex. 22:24)
Not to commit fraud in measuring (Lev. 19:35)
Not to delay payment of a hired man's wages (Lev. 19:13)
Not to testify falsely (Ex. 20:13)
Not to hear one of the parties to a suit in the absence of the other party (Ex. 23:1)
Not to take a bribe (Ex. 23:8)
Not to defraud (Lev. 19:13)
Not to covet what belongs to another (Ex. 20:14)
Not murdering a human being (Ex. 20:13)
Not bearing false witness (Ex. 20:15)
Those are all from the “Old Testament.†We run into problems when we start using the mysticism of the “New Testament†for our moral values, where belief in Jesus is the only thing that really matters and belief is what makes someone a good person.
Did you get your anti-Semitism from the church? [ Edit: this comment was made in error. Accountable has never made an anti-Semitic comment as far as I know. ]
Should we let the child-molester priests dictate morality? How about Pat Robertson? Now there’s a moral religious person. :wah:
We already get a lot of our moral laws from the Bible:
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16)
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17)
Not to wrong the stranger in buying or selling (Ex. 22:20)
Not to take part in any usurious transaction between borrower and lender, neither as a surety, nor as a witness, nor as a writer of the bond for them (Ex. 22:24)
Not to commit fraud in measuring (Lev. 19:35)
Not to delay payment of a hired man's wages (Lev. 19:13)
Not to testify falsely (Ex. 20:13)
Not to hear one of the parties to a suit in the absence of the other party (Ex. 23:1)
Not to take a bribe (Ex. 23:8)
Not to defraud (Lev. 19:13)
Not to covet what belongs to another (Ex. 20:14)
Not murdering a human being (Ex. 20:13)
Not bearing false witness (Ex. 20:15)
Those are all from the “Old Testament.†We run into problems when we start using the mysticism of the “New Testament†for our moral values, where belief in Jesus is the only thing that really matters and belief is what makes someone a good person.
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
Benjamin wrote: Did you get your anti-Semitism from the church? :wah:
Accusing me of anti-Semitism is a joke? You'll need to explain that punchline because I don't get it.
Accusing me of anti-Semitism is a joke? You'll need to explain that punchline because I don't get it.
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Accountable
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Separation of Church and State?
Benjamin wrote: Did you get your anti-Semitism from the church? :wah:
Should we let the child-molester priests dictate morality? How about Pat Robertson? Now there’s a moral religious person. :wah:
We already get a lot of our moral laws from the Bible:
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16)
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17)
Not to wrong the stranger in buying or selling (Ex. 22:20)
Not to take part in any usurious transaction between borrower and lender, neither as a surety, nor as a witness, nor as a writer of the bond for them (Ex. 22:24)
Not to commit fraud in measuring (Lev. 19:35)
Not to delay payment of a hired man's wages (Lev. 19:13)
Not to testify falsely (Ex. 20:13)
Not to hear one of the parties to a suit in the absence of the other party (Ex. 23:1)
Not to take a bribe (Ex. 23:8)
Not to defraud (Lev. 19:13)
Not to covet what belongs to another (Ex. 20:14)
Not murdering a human being (Ex. 20:13)
Not bearing false witness (Ex. 20:15)
Those are all from the “Old Testament.†We run into problems when we start using the mysticism of the “New Testament†for our moral values, where belief in Jesus is the only thing that really matters and belief is what makes someone a good person.
I don't get your point. Are you disagreeing with me? Take it point by point.
Should we let the child-molester priests dictate morality? How about Pat Robertson? Now there’s a moral religious person. :wah:
We already get a lot of our moral laws from the Bible:
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16)
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17)
Not to wrong the stranger in buying or selling (Ex. 22:20)
Not to take part in any usurious transaction between borrower and lender, neither as a surety, nor as a witness, nor as a writer of the bond for them (Ex. 22:24)
Not to commit fraud in measuring (Lev. 19:35)
Not to delay payment of a hired man's wages (Lev. 19:13)
Not to testify falsely (Ex. 20:13)
Not to hear one of the parties to a suit in the absence of the other party (Ex. 23:1)
Not to take a bribe (Ex. 23:8)
Not to defraud (Lev. 19:13)
Not to covet what belongs to another (Ex. 20:14)
Not murdering a human being (Ex. 20:13)
Not bearing false witness (Ex. 20:15)
Those are all from the “Old Testament.†We run into problems when we start using the mysticism of the “New Testament†for our moral values, where belief in Jesus is the only thing that really matters and belief is what makes someone a good person.
I don't get your point. Are you disagreeing with me? Take it point by point.
Separation of Church and State?
Benjamin wrote: Did you get your anti-Semitism from the church?
Yeah, I don't get that one either. He just sort of flamed you and then added a smilie. Passive-aggressiveness of the worst kind.
And BTW..don't lump me in with your "we" in connection to Jesus, I have no problem at all in believing in Him.
Yeah, I don't get that one either. He just sort of flamed you and then added a smilie. Passive-aggressiveness of the worst kind.
And BTW..don't lump me in with your "we" in connection to Jesus, I have no problem at all in believing in Him.
All the world's a stage and the men and women merely players...Shakespeare