A Clash of Civilizations

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 11:39 pm

Islam vs. everyone else. It's going to get worse before it gets better and all the talking, negotiating, peace overtures, bribes and incentives ain't gonna cut it. Islam has one foot in the 11th Century and the other in the 21st and until they get both feet in the 21st there will be strife. They got the cell phones, weapons, designer glasses, tv's, computers and all the moden technology with ideology that is both barbaric, chauvenistic and woefully unfair. Non Muslims will put up with it for a while, and then I think there will be the equivilent of a non-Muslim Jihad. What do you think?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:44 am

Who knows ?

If I were forced to sum it up Id say that as long as freedom of expression isnt valued in their culture they'll remain a repressed society. Repression breeds oppression.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:26 am

I think it's been a long time coming. People forget one of the precepts of islam is to make the whole world islamic. We are all infidels to them. Now that they represent a large portion of each of our societies, who knows? But I wonder how they will deal with the backlash. We have tolerated them amongst us, and now they are offending that tolerance. If we pulled the same stunts in their countries, we would probably be executed by now.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:03 am

If we were talking about wild animals or mad dogs, the answer would be either euthanize them because they are dangerous, or isolate them in their native habitat as an endangered species.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:32 pm

Raven wrote: I think it's been a long time coming. People forget one of the precepts of islam is to make the whole world islamic.

The exact same stated goal as Communism and Fascism. Lon's right, another World War is coming.

Will it be a cold, economic war like the one that crashed the Soviet Union? Or a hot bloody one like World War II, the struggle to defeat Hitler?

Who knows?

All I know is that Islam is is in for a big surprise if they think they can overthrow the rest of the world with terrorism. That tactic hasn't won a single war.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:44 pm

It's coming?!?

It's here!

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:53 pm

Raven wrote: . If we pulled the same stunts in their countries, we would probably be executed by now.

If they pulled these stunts IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES it wouldn't be tolerated. They leave for a better life (which they have got) and then abuse the hospitality and tolerance they're shown in the West.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:56 pm

It would be kinda fun to just drop all pretense and protocol and go burn an embassy down. :sneaky:

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:25 pm

Far Rider wrote: I agree it is here.

I weaponed up. I also have a full medic bag, and am in the process of gearing up and updating my training as well.

I feel no different than a minuteman, I'm willing to protect and defend my constitutional right to my pursuit of happiness, and to protect my family. The perimeter of my defense is now mobile, instead of it being the borders and neighborhood of my home, it is now extended to include and envelop any action I see that would be construde as a terroristic act.

And before you ask about how dangerous this is, I've weighed the options and feel I cannot any longer intrust to the proper authorites my immediate safety at home, or out in the highways and byways of my life, or that of my families life.

I know that meakes the terrorists "win" in a certain way. But that is now the reality of how I must live.

I think its encoumbant on each on of us to stay vigil and aware of our surroundings and whats actually normal in our environments and look on new things that are out of the ordinary as suspect unitll you confirm its normal, Im not saying go nuts and be silly worried... but be more cautious.

One teensy problem here far......where are they ?

And dont tell me you know because you dont. The sleeper cells have been living amongst us. Raising their families, going to work, grocery shopping etc.

They have the advantage of the element of surprise.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:43 pm

Lon wrote: Islam vs. everyone else. It's going to get worse before it gets better and all the talking, negotiating, peace overtures, bribes and incentives ain't gonna cut it. Islam has one foot in the 11th Century and the other in the 21st and until they get both feet in the 21st there will be strife. They got the cell phones, weapons, designer glasses, tv's, computers and all the moden technology with idealogy that is both barbaric, chauvenistic and woefully unfair. Non Muslims will put up with it for a while, and then I think there will be the equivilent of a non-Muslim Jihad. What do you think?

USA vs. everyone else. It's going to get worse before it gets better and all the talking, negotiating, peace overtures, bribes and incentives ain't gonna cut it. America has one foot in the 11th Century and the other in the 21st and until they get both feet in the 21st there will be strife. They got the cell phones, weapons, designer glasses, tv's, computers and all the moden technology with idealogy that is both barbaric, chauvenistic and woefully unfair.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:46 pm

The sleeper cells are the eyes, ears and hands, in place for unquestioned orders.

Thats dangerous.

But not as dangerous as a babyrider with a 5' python ! :sneaky:

venus · Post by **venus** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:49 pm

The thing is though adn l know lm gonna get it for this but what the hell....

The vast majority of Muslims do not want to rule the world as the true faith is about living with respect and tolerance for other faiths..

Seriously the faiths of Judaism and Islam are so similar..

and christianity is also a close resemblence just with a few name changes sort of thing..

Look l really have no time for terrorists and radicals, no one is telling me l cannot go to school or wear a skirt and have my head uncovered, etc as these are the common worries that people come out with.

I think anyone who takes innocent lives needs to be punished whomever they are and no matter what guise they are doing it.

Im not a total softie but l shed tears when the towers fell, l shed tears when the blanket bombs were used, because l knew innnocents were dying. I do not like the idea of our country men and women going anywhere and giving their lives but at least they signed up and know what to expect.

I just hope that people will start to make the definition between the fanatics and true muslims, as they are very different.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:53 pm

koan wrote: USA vs. everyone else. It's going to get worse before it gets better and all the talking, negotiating, peace overtures, bribes and incentives ain't gonna cut it. America has one foot in the 11th Century and the other in the 21st and until they get both feet in the 21st there will be strife. They got the cell phones, weapons, designer glasses, tv's, computers and all the moden technology with idealogy that is both barbaric, chauvenistic and woefully unfair.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

All you did is change the name. What are you basing the statement that our culture is similar to Iran's or Iraq's or any other Middle Eastern countries on ?

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:02 pm

FR

Unfortunately, I'm serious.

I found the OP offensive and narrowminded. It incites hatred and fear. There are an equal number of people who would avidly agree with my revision. They just don't choose to hang out here. The majority of the "Garden" does not necessarily reflect the majority of the world opinion.

I suppose I'm also being argumentative, since no one else here has taken exception to what was said. In fact the responses are somewhat horrifying as well. (oh. except for venus. you go girl!)

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:09 pm

venus wrote: The thing is though adn l know lm gonna get it for this but what the hell....

The vast majority of Muslims do not want to rule the world as the true faith is about living with respect and tolerance for other faiths..

Seriously the faiths of Judaism and Islam are so similar..

and christianity is also a close resemblence just with a few name changes sort of thing..

Look l really have no time for terrorists and radicals, no one is telling me l cannot go to school or wear a skirt and have my head uncovered, etc as these are the common worries that people come out with.

I think anyone who takes innocent lives needs to be punished whomever they are and no matter what guise they are doing it.

Im not a total softie but l shed tears when the towers fell, l shed tears when the blanket bombs were used, because l knew innnocents were dying. I do not like the idea of our country men and women going anywhere and giving their lives but at least they signed up and know what to expect.

I just hope that people will start to make the definition between the fanatics and true muslims, as they are very different.
If the more level-headed Muslims would stand up to their own, I don't think we would have a problem. The idiots protesting at people's funerals in the name of Christianity make all Christians look bad, so good Christians stand up.

I guess I (and I presume others) just don't get why the good Muslims aren't standing up.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:12 pm

Far Rider wrote: OK have you ever seen an american suicide bomber attack innocent cicvilians?It's a specious argument, Far. She knows damn well it's neither true nor accurate.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:17 pm

great now I have to look up specious

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:22 pm

Throughout the world, on any given day, a man, woman, or child is likely to be displaced, tortured, killed, or 'disappeared', at the hands of governments or armed political groups. More often than not, the United States shares the blame.-- Amnesty International, 1996

A little research would reveal that America has been behind a lot of global terrorism itself. Besides that, classifying all the people of the world into two categories is beyond absurd.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:25 pm

koan wrote: USA vs. everyone else. It's going to get worse before it gets better and all the talking, negotiating, peace overtures, bribes and incentives ain't gonna cut it. America has one foot in the 11th Century and the other in the 21st and until they get both feet in the 21st there will be strife. They got the cell phones, weapons, designer glasses, tv's, computers and all the moden technology with idealogy that is both barbaric, chauvenistic and woefully unfair.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

Koan---your post is a whole other issue and has nothing at all to do with my original post, or do you just like jumping topic?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:25 pm

Accountable wrote: If the more level-headed Muslims would stand up to their own, I don't think we would have a problem. The idiots protesting at people's funerals in the name of Christianity make all Christians look bad, so good Christians stand up.

I guess I (and I presume others) just don't get why the good Muslims aren't standing up.

Absolutely !

This is what it boils down to.

A leader is needed. A voice with reason, intent and purposeful drive. Not a leader who feeds on the lowest common denominator by funding suicide bombers and fueling them with dreams of golden palaces filled with virgins.

A strong voice that will take his people out of repression, a leader who will bend his will to further societies cause, not destroy its peoples.

Suicide bombers ? What a f*cking joke ! To what end ?

Sheep !

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:29 pm

Lon wrote: Koan---your post is a whole other issue and has nothing at all to do with my original post, or do you just like jumping topic?

A little denial?

What's good for the goose...

or does objecting to your opinion constitute another topic just out of principle?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:31 pm

koan wrote: Throughout the world, on any given day, a man, woman, or child is likely to be displaced, tortured, killed, or 'disappeared', at the hands of governments or armed political groups. More often than not, the United States shares the blame.-- Amnesty International, 1996

A little research would reveal that America has been behind a lot of global terrorism itself. Besides that, classifying all the people of the world into two categories is beyond absurd.

How clever of you to see through our cloaked intentions.

Essentially the world is comprised of two types of people.

Those that act with honor.

And those that bitch and moan and do nothing.

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:41 pm

Nomad wrote: All you did is change the name. What are you basing the statement that our culture is similar to Iran's or Iraq's or any other Middle Eastern countries on ?

O.K. I can't resist this http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/7027/quotes.html

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'" --from Pat Robertson's "The New World Order," page 218.

"The Constitution of the United States, for instance, is a marvelous document for self-government by the Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society. And that's what's been happening." -- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, Dec. 30, 1981

http://www.cc.org/pressroom.cfm

Wednesday, 2/1/2006

Christian Coalition Urges the U.S. House to Pass Congressman Bartlett's "Holly's Law" (Taking Abortion Pill, RU486 off the Market)

http://www.lompocrecord.com/articles/20 ... 13006c.txt

Religious fundamentalism has proven the most malevolent manifestation of our species. Few things are more frightening than when this form of extremism is combined with the power of government creating a theocracy. Consider but three relatively recent examples: Iran, Afghanistan and the United States.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 ... 22,00.html

Not being American I am unsure how strong the christian right really is in America. But I think you should worry about your own Christian Taliban. They seem a bigger threat to your liberties than any terrorists.

Religious nutters are the same the world over, christianity is not exactly short of violent examples. The Spanish inquisition was not just a sketch from monty python. Luckily the heretics were too strong which is why you can all read this or it's not in Spanish.

Maybe we're lucky in the UK as the various christian sects very rapidly start squabbling amongst themselves and most everyone else has learned to tolerate each other and leave religon out of it before sectarianism raises it's ugly head.

Where I live Should any protesting muslims happen to bump in to an orange walk the resulting mayhem would gladden the hearts of all the catholics and the episcopaleans would look on in genteel amusement wondering what all the fuss is about. Then allegedly they have always thought themselves a cut above the other christians.

Religon and christianity maybe you have one you can't have the other.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:45 pm

For a good list of Muslims who denounce terrorism and extremists:

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

I think there has been a reasonable reaction in this matter. What do you expect? For them to catch them all? Extremists exist in many forms and factions they always will.

....Are we really still debating whether there are more than two types of people in the world?

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:48 pm

gmc :-6

about time you got here!

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:50 pm

O.K. I can't resist this

Why bring up Pat Robertson ?

Hes a lunatic and aside from his little niche he has no influence whatsoever.

Hes simply not valid in American politics.

Lon · Post by **Lon** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:52 pm

koan wrote: A little denial?

What's good for the goose...

or does objecting to your opinion constitute another topic just out of principle?

No denial--------If you wish to bash the US, start your own damn post dealing with that particualr subject instead of piggy backing on my post. The subject is Islam Vs. everyone else, meaning anyone that is not a Muslim. Further, do you deny Islam existing today with a foot in two different centuries?

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:01 pm

koan wrote: For a good list of Muslims who denounce terrorism and extremists:

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

I think there has been a reasonable reaction in this matter. What do you expect? For them to catch them all? Extremists exist in many forms and factions they always will.

....Are we really still debating whether there are more than two types of people in the world?

Its not enough.

Its not enough to throw your two cents in, thats not leadership. They need someone who can work within the framework that the rest of us working in, to be proactive. They need leadership that can bring about actual results, someone who can provide a positive influence for future generations, they need leadership who can instill pride through the act of good and purposeful deeds.

They need leadership that can reason beyond simple acts of lampooning, to see beyond the moment and enact prosperity, government, educational tools and provide a safe atmosphere and society in hopes that one day we can live if not seperate but equal.

In my opinion much of the discord is arrived at through lack of hope and decimation of civic and personal pride.

Like I said repression breeds oppression.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:06 pm

Lon wrote: No denial--------If you wish to bash the US, start your own damn post dealing with that particualr subject instead of piggy backing on my post. The subject is Islam Vs. everyone else, meaning anyone that is not a Muslim. Further, do you deny Islam existing today with a foot in two different centuries?

If my ambition was to start a thread inciting anger and hatred then I might just have started a post like yours. It is not. My ambition is point out the flaws in your statements and show you how easy it is to make generalizations. All major religions have origins from a different century. Are you claiming Christianity, or any other major religion, is completely modern without historical influence? Again, the idea does not mean what you claim it does.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:07 pm

gmc wrote: Not being American I am unsure how strong the christian right really is in America. But I think you should worry about your own Christian Taliban. They seem a bigger threat to your liberties than any terrorists.

:yh_rotfl If you're unsure how strong they are, how can you possibly estimate them as a threat? :yh_rotfl

That just shows how much we value freedom. We even let the nutters have their say.

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:09 pm

SnoozeControl wrote: Since I've never been in a violent situation such as throwing Molotov cocktails at embassies...I'm curious how the US/individual state would punish someone for that offense?

Really ?

Oh ya gotta try this !

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:11 pm

Accountable wrote:

That just shows how much we value freedom. We even let the nutters have their say.

That doesn't apply to Muslims as well? Apparently "they hate freedom" yet they get in trouble for not rounding them up like good leaders and...what? disposing of the radicals? Double standards for a world split into two groups?

Well said, Accountable. Now just apply this as the answer to Nomad's post.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:12 pm

gmc wrote: Religious nutters are the same the world over, christianity is not exactly short of violent examples. The Spanish inquisition was not just a sketch from monty python. Luckily the heretics were too strong which is why you can all read this or it's not in Spanish.

They're not the same the world over. The Spanish Inquisition was - what? - before I started subscribing to my Weekly Reader. The world has changed since then. Spain has changed. The Catholic church has changed.

To equate Pat Robertson's verbal rants with homicide bombers is laughable.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:15 pm

koan wrote: That doesn't apply to Muslims as well? Apparently "they hate freedom" yet they get in trouble for not rounding them up like good leaders and...what? disposing of the radicals? Double standards for a world split into two groups?

Well said, Accountable. Now just apply this as the answer to Nomad's post.
You're calling terrorist bombings FREE SPEECH?!?

That's so far afield, I don't even know how to address it.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:21 pm

FR :-6

You can't place someone in a life threatening situation before you ask for their opinion. It's a lowball tactic. It is what your government is being criticised for. They raise the fear levels then ask for support of aggressive foreign policy. The roles in this scenario could be reversed with no valid conclusions. A person chooses life when in danger no matter who the rescuing party is. If I was held captive and tortured then found myself dangling from a cliff and my torturer offered me a hand up...I would take it. It doesn't mean I approve of his torturing techniques.

So the answer to your question is... that you need to get a better perspective on how to decide right from wrong. :rolleyes:

Nomad · Post by **Nomad** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:27 pm

koan wrote: FR :-6

You can't place someone in a life threatening situation before you ask for their opinion. It's a lowball tactic. It is what your government is being criticised for. They raise the fear levels then ask for support of aggressive foreign policy. The roles in this scenario could be reversed with no valid conclusions. A person chooses life when in danger no matter who the rescuing party is. If I was held captive and tortured then found myself dangling from a cliff and my torturer offered me a hand up...I would take it. It doesn't mean I approve of his torturing techniques.

So the answer to your question is... that you need to get a better perspective on how to decide right from wrong. :rolleyes:

Your full of lamb !

His point wasnt lowball it was straight up who ya gonna trust ?

Answer the question.

We raise the fear level ?

Your an idiot.....I remember we were minding our own business Sept. 11

Every time theres a videotape we get more threats. Thats not the business were in and you know it.

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:29 pm

Accountable wrote: You're calling terrorist bombings FREE SPEECH?!?

That's so far afield, I don't even know how to address it.

This is just getting stupid.

It is seems to me that it is being recommended that Muslims jail or kill any Muslim who says something radical to prove they don't support terrorists.

Hey if the Americans couldn't find Bin Laden, who can? You're all so great, your defeat in this task leaves the rest of us speechless. You didn't just give the Bin Laden family "free speech" your government chartered them a few private jets. Isn't that nice of them?

koan · Post by **koan** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:31 pm

I agree that I'm an idiot...for bothering to post here.

good night

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:34 pm

koan wrote: FR :-6

You can't place someone in a life threatening situation before you ask for their opinion. It's a lowball tactic. It is what your government is being criticised for. They raise the fear levels then ask for support of aggressive foreign policy. The roles in this scenario could be reversed with no valid conclusions. A person chooses life when in danger no matter who the rescuing party is. If I was held captive and tortured then found myself dangling from a cliff and my torturer offered me a hand up...I would take it. It doesn't mean I approve of his torturing techniques.

So the answer to your question is... that you need to get a better perspective on how to decide right from wrong. :rolleyes:

This is from an earlier thread.

koan wrote: Here's a scenario. In the battlefield two men are fallen. One man was known for his generosity and, since the death of his wife in childbirth, raises homeless children as his own. He joined the army because he wanted to ensure a good world for his children. The other man is an alcoholic, beats his children and visits prositutes on a regular basis leaving the family almost penniless. He joined the army because he wanted to leave his home anyway.

Let's not assign countries to either of these men lest the choice become a matter of debate. This is all hypothetical. Now. Patriotism requires that, if you could only save one of the two, you save the one from your country even if it is the man who beats his kids. It prescribes that a person should overlook their own moral values and uphold those handed down by 'the group'.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:41 pm

Nomad wrote: Your full of lamb !

His point wasnt lowball it was straight up who ya gonna trust ?

Answer the question.

We raise the fear level ?

Your an idiot.....I remember we were minding our own business Sept. 11

Every time theres a videotape we get more threats. Thats not the business were in and you know it.
Nomad!

My, my, my. :yh_clap