Elderly must repay ‚£130m in pension credit fiasco

[OpenMind]

Elderly must repay £130m in pension credit fiasco

By Toby Helm and Stephanie Condron

(Filed: 10/03/2006)

Tens of thousands of elderly people who receive money through pension credits face having to pay part of it back to the Treasury because of overpayment blunders, the Tories claimed last night.

The Department for Work and Pensions admitted that it would attempt to claw back cash from some of the country's poorest pensioners after official figures showed overpayments had more than tripled from £40 million in 2001/2 to £130 million last year.

David Ruffley, the Conservative spokesman on welfare reform, accused ministers of gross mismanagement and predicted a repeat of last year's fiasco over tax credits, which saw the Government attempt to reclaim part of a total £2 billion overpayment.

"Pensioners face the prospect of being rung up by the Department for Work and Pensions asking for its money back," he said.

Help the Aged described the move as "heartless".

A spokesman said that many pensioners would now be so worried they had been overpaid that they would cut back on essentials including heating.

"Twenty per cent of pensioners are living below the poverty line," said Mervyn Kohler, Help the Aged's spokesman. "To go chasing some of those individuals strikes me as mean.

"One of the problems with the pension credit is that the calculation of what you are entitled to is so complex that for an ordinary member of the public to know what they are being paid is right or not is impossible."

Elizabeth Blackman, a representative for the National Pensioners Convention in the East Midlands, said: "Can they explain how it would be obvious to the average pensioner that they had been overpaid?

"The problem with pension credit is pensioners are not claiming it because it's too complex so how the heck are they to realise when they've been overpaid?

"The Government has been sending out reminders to people that they may be eligible to claim but this will put people off claiming."

A spokesman for the Department for Work and Pensions insisted that no pensioner who had received overpayments as a result of a Government error would be required to pay money back - unless the mistakes had been "very obvious".

"If, for instance, someone had received two payments in the same week then there would be a case for repaying it," said the spokesman.

"But this would be done sensitively. If it would cause hardship there would be no requirement to pay back the entire lump sum immediately."

Pension credit, which is received by 3.3 million people, is a lynchpin of Gordon Brown's strategy for lifting pensioners out of poverty. The intention is to provide older people with a minimum level of income.

But there have been many teething problems since it was introduced in 2003.

The figures published by the Work and Pensions department show that there was overpayment in 2004/05 amounting to 2.1 per cent of total pension credit payments.

Vince Cable, the Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman, said that it was "outrageous" that people who had struggled with bureaucracy and endless complex forms to extract their pension credit were now being hunted down by the Government and were being asked to repay the money.

James Plaskitt, the minister for benefits, said that despite the problems, Pension Credit was helping many pensioners out of poverty.

The systems for delivering the correct sums to the right pensioners were also improving.

"Pension credit continues to deliver more money to the poorest pensioners with over three million getting more money as a direct result."

Last year Tony Blair apologised for the "hardship and distress" suffered by poor families as a result of mis-management of the separate tax credit system run by the Treasury.

In addition to £2 billion of overpayments some 713,000 people were found to have been underpaid £500 million. The problems were blamed in large part on malfunctioning IT systems.

© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2006.

[Bez]

Good Lord...and I was SO looking forward to October when i retire....it's already a mine field !

[Rapunzel]

This is disgusting!

These people fought and their loved ones died during wartime, & for what?

To give us the freedom to treat them like dirt?

It's utterly and absolutely shocking and disgusting. I can't think of words angry enough to express how heinous this crime is! :yh_tongue

[stewartcumming]

Rapunzel wrote: This is disgusting!



These people fought and their loved ones died during wartime, & for what?

To give us the freedom to treat them like dirt?



It's utterly and absolutely shocking and disgusting. I can't think of words angry enough to express how heinous this crime is! :yh_tongue


Particularly as the government will just waste whatever they claw back eg by giving legal aid to illegal immigrants who are trying to fight being deported BY THE GOVERNMENT?!?.



Meanwhile my gran (barely) survives on her pittance despite a lifetime of Income Tax, VAT & National Insurance payments. Oh, and her gas/electricity bills are going up by 20%.



Does any taxpayer begrudge pensioners an extra few bob? Every taxpayer is related to one, every taxpayer will become one.



A society that doesn't look after its old folk can't call itself civilised

[theia]

Of course the elderly should not be asked to repay these credits...for goodness sake, it can be difficult enough for them

But, I have worked with younger people who were fully aware that their tax credits were way above what they should have been. And I'm not talking about people who desperately need help but those who have had an illness or injury some years ago and who are now fully recovered and capable of working normally. These people have knowingly spent the huge overpayments on things that the average person cannot afford, so that they don't have to pay the extra back. Now they should be made to repay.

[BabyRider]

Am I getting this right? It's the government's screw-up but the elderly people have to fix it? What a bunch of crap. They should riot. Get out the walkers and the prune juice and wreak havoc in the streets.

Yes, I'm partly joking about it, mostly because it makes me so damn mad. :-5

[randall]

:-6

randall here,

I am counting myself lucky not to be one of those Pensioners.

After, what I describe as two years of hell, after almost being forced, well my arm was well and truly twisted, to apply for pension credits, we have just been informed that out of the kindness of their hearts they are going to take £8.00 per week off our rates.

That is very welcome. All my firneds and relatives told me that I was a fool to apply as I would probably end up paying more in the end.

The trust British people have in their government amazes me at times!!!!!

It was the walking in and out of the town to the local tax office that wore me down with stupid little pieces of paper.

After it all, I received seven identical letters in one post (they have green stripes all along the borders of the envelopes so are easily recognisable - I was scared to show them to my wife in case she had a heart attack). When she left to shop I telephoned about them and was told to telephone ANOTHER town with my problem.

I asked what I was to do with all these letters. "Nothing." came the reply. "Just keep them and we will send you and update soetime soon.". What a waste of time and money.

My description of the path leading up to it is the means testing you have to go through where they ask to see things, papers, documents, etc not once but sometimes twice or three times although they take a photocopy each time!

NOW WORK THAT ONE OUT?

"We only accept original documents. Not photo copies!" was said to me a hundred times.

They even called the P60 from one small pension (£2.0/week) a photocopy.

They dug years into the past and don't believe that ISA's, etc are exempt - as we were told by the exchequer - they even calculated the interest on that (my wife calls it our burying money) and took it into account.

Now that Gordon Brown, John Prescott and the treasurer of the "NEW LABOUR PARTY" have revealed that they did not know about the FOURTEEN MILLION BORROWED - the party is falling into disrepute.

Good news for Tommy Sheridan who has been old Labour all along - no I don't vote for him - and now another group are trying to start a real new labour party.

The programme comparing almost word for word the conduct of Tony Blair since being elected to office with "ANIMAL FARM" (Also written by a Mr Blair better known as George Orwell) was very funny, deeply significant and illuminating.

It is amazing how they have turned so viciously on their roots - the people who marched, went hungry on hunger strikes, and starved their families to start a party that truly represented the working class.

They almost look down on them with scorn as they have great salaries and an even more magnificent pension to look forward to.

Now more and more people are saying, "If them, why not us. Are we not equally entitled to it."

After all, an MP has only to complete ONE five year term in Westminster to earn a life long pension so no one can say that they earned it? Their contributions, if any would fall far short of it in a mere five years.

Now I hear that THE LAW forbids the government from clawing back all that money (AS IF THEY RESPECT THE LAW?) but I have heard that they have the neck to send letters to the impoverished pensioners who got the money that they would like it to be returned???? PLEASE. I will say thankyou.

I certainly would not do it.

Neither did any of the people interviewed on the TV recently in Pubs and on the streets.

God bless

randall.

:) You must smile otherwise it would break your heart.

[gmc]

randall wrote: :-6

randall here,

I am counting myself lucky not to be one of those Pensioners.

After, what I describe as two years of hell, after almost being forced, well my arm was well and truly twisted, to apply for pension credits, we have just been informed that out of the kindness of their hearts they are going to take £8.00 per week off our rates.

That is very welcome. All my firneds and relatives told me that I was a fool to apply as I would probably end up paying more in the end.

The trust British people have in their government amazes me at times!!!!!

It was the walking in and out of the town to the local tax office that wore me down with stupid little pieces of paper.

After it all, I received seven identical letters in one post (they have green stripes all along the borders of the envelopes so are easily recognisable - I was scared to show them to my wife in case she had a heart attack). When she left to shop I telephoned about them and was told to telephone ANOTHER town with my problem.

I asked what I was to do with all these letters. "Nothing." came the reply. "Just keep them and we will send you and update soetime soon.". What a waste of time and money.

My description of the path leading up to it is the means testing you have to go through where they ask to see things, papers, documents, etc not once but sometimes twice or three times although they take a photocopy each time!

NOW WORK THAT ONE OUT?

"We only accept original documents. Not photo copies!" was said to me a hundred times.

They even called the P60 from one small pension (£2.0/week) a photocopy.

They dug years into the past and don't believe that ISA's, etc are exempt - as we were told by the exchequer - they even calculated the interest on that (my wife calls it our burying money) and took it into account.

Now that Gordon Brown, John Prescott and the treasurer of the "NEW LABOUR PARTY" have revealed that they did not know about the FOURTEEN MILLION BORROWED - the party is falling into disrepute.

Good news for Tommy Sheridan who has been old Labour all along - no I don't vote for him - and now another group are trying to start a real new labour party.

The programme comparing almost word for word the conduct of Tony Blair since being elected to office with "ANIMAL FARM" (Also written by a Mr Blair better known as George Orwell) was very funny, deeply significant and illuminating.

It is amazing how they have turned so viciously on their roots - the people who marched, went hungry on hunger strikes, and starved their families to start a party that truly represented the working class.

They almost look down on them with scorn as they have great salaries and an even more magnificent pension to look forward to.

Now more and more people are saying, "If them, why not us. Are we not equally entitled to it."

After all, an MP has only to complete ONE five year term in Westminster to earn a life long pension so no one can say that they earned it? Their contributions, if any would fall far short of it in a mere five years.

Now I hear that THE LAW forbids the government from clawing back all that money (AS IF THEY RESPECT THE LAW?) but I have heard that they have the neck to send letters to the impoverished pensioners who got the money that they would like it to be returned???? PLEASE. I will say thankyou.

I certainly would not do it.

Neither did any of the people interviewed on the TV recently in Pubs and on the streets.

God bless

randall.

:) You must smile otherwise it would break your heart.


I reckon TB and his cronies have effectively wrecked the labour party just as maggie and her cronies have destroyed the tories. I can't see labour winning the next election even with our skewed electoral system. Then losing that by-election in fife was a major event no matter how they try and pass it off.

posted by babyrider

Am I getting this right? It's the government's screw-up but the elderly people have to fix it? What a bunch of crap. They should riot. Get out the walkers and the prune juice and wreak havoc in the streets.

Yes, I'm partly joking about it, mostly because it makes me so damn mad.




Not just you, it would be a very foolish govt that tried that one on.

[OpenMind]

Randall. I had a similar experience to you March last year. A medical problem forced me to stop working and I had a total of 5 weeks off work. I had trhe same problem with having to supply originals which I didn't keep as I personally didn't have a need to keep them. I got £46 in the end - after protesting (they were going to give me nothing). The biggest problem was the fact that I had to claim income from the Jobcentre and housing benefit from the council, both of whom demanded original copies within one month. I explained that I had to wait for them to come in, but they both stuck to the time-limit (30 days). I lost out completely on the council benefit.

When I went back to work, I'd had enough of the hassle and stopped pursuing it. My work takes up most of my time anyway and that gives me little spare time.

But, I have always felt that I should have written about this, vehemently, to my local MP. Would it do any good? It's not too late to add my tuppence-worth. :-5

[randall]

:-6

randall thanking "Open Mind" for his contribution,

I have never believed in "Keep your voice down, the neighbours will hear you."

If you have a grievance shout it from the roof tops and write to your MP.

Alex Salmond must have a file for me alone!

He, and his predecessors have helped me out ever since I returned from abroad nearly forty years ago. The IR revenue apparently assumes that every one who goes abroad has gone for big wages - I went for my health and received relatively poor wages but a wonderful life and NO PENSION!

Most of my neighbours assume that I returned a millionaire and tell me that to my face almost every time I go into town.

Hence, I am rarely in town.

I received a summons to appear in court (no preliminary letter asking me to come and talk with them?) and other threats (has anyone else got the distinct feeling that during my lifetime official letters from Whitehall, the Town Hall, lawyers and others have become distinctly rude, threatening and the total assumption that you are guilty, and total absence of courtesy, before you even get the letter?) over Income Tax and the return of "Dole" which I had never received - living so long abroad I have never been entitled to it.

Luckily the Merchant Navy Seaman's Discharge book is a good record of seamens' whereabouts and it proved I was out of the country during the period that I was supposed to have been given the "DOLE"

The latter came fro the welfare office (DHSS) but when I confronted them they told me that they were told to send it by the unemployment office - if there is a long route they will take it.

By ourselves, my wife and I would have been helpless with our fairly poor knowledge of what to do in such circumstances.

So I can only thank our MP and his predecessors for helping us out so much and once you have them on your side it is wonder to feel such an air of relief.

I even received a three page letter (among the dozen or so others I have received) from Whitehall with a grovelling apology and admitting that my wife and I had fallen through every safety net they had put in place - if us, then there must be thousands of others without my talent for writing letters to all and sundry.

Now I threaten THEM that the next letter goes to my MP.

Age does give you more courage in those matters.

I learned this from an American magazine which happened to mention that if a Congressman/woman or Representative get six or eight letters on ONE subject he - or she - considers it to be a deluge.

I thought, if them then why not ours and it has worked.

I have been lucky to get several hundred pounds refunded through the efforts of my MP.

One ex-inland revenue inspector offered to help me sort out my problems with IR just after I stopped work at 68 and he called me in one day and said to me "THEY wont answer my telephone calls or answer my letters so I can only advise you to take the whole lot of papers to Alex Salmond's office Once they know an MP is involved all hell will be let loose in that office just to clear it up and get him out of their hair - I know from experience."

They still emptied my small savings account but at least I have had relative peace ever since.

Being at sea had one big drawback - it is impossible to fight a case from an ever moving ship.

I have lost car accident claims over it because the lawyers simply gave up trying to keep in contact with me.

Mail was the only contact most of my life at sea.

Young people just cannot understand that telephone conversations with friends, etc. all over the globe is a relatively new thing.

We used to have to book an international call and then wait for hours for the operator to call us back and tell us he or she had got through.

It cost £5 per minute to telephone the USA around 1950.

So, my advice is, give your MP's plenty of work, that is what they are paid for.

God bless.

randall

:)

[OpenMind]

Thanks, Randall. That was very encouraging.