Girl not allowed to watch Big Brother hanged herself

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:42 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh ... w_11082006

Girl not allowed to watch Big Brother hanged herself

By David Sapsted

(Filed: 11/08/2006)

A girl of 11 hanged herself in the family bathroom because she was not allowed to watch Big Brother, an inquest heard yesterday.

Yasmin Browder had thrown a tantrum because her mother wanted to leave decorating materials in her bedroom overnight. As a punishment, she was banned from watching the reality television show in June.

She locked herself in the bathroom, attached the cord of her dressing gown to the door and hanged herself, the inquest in Worthing was told.

"This is one of the saddest cases I have had to deal with in a long time," said Roger Stone, the West Sussex coroner, who recorded an open verdict. "Yasmin got into a strop, as her mum said, and could not watch Big Brother.

"This was an impulsive gesture which has gone horribly wrong, for Yasmin, her family and, perhaps, wrong for our society."

Yasmin, for whom "everything was positive in life", had been decorating her bedroom with her mother, Jill Morey, in Shoreham-by-Sea. "Everything was fine until the time when I said to her that I was leaving the bucket, wallpaper and stripper in her room until the morning," said Miss Morey, 38, a care worker. "She went totally out of character and started launching things out of her room. I said, 'Why are you doing this?'.

"She said, 'I don't want it in my room'. When we had finished decorating, she said to me, 'I want to watch Big Brother. I said, 'You are not. You are misbehaving. You are going to bed'. I thought she was being disrespectful.

"She was stomping around upstairs and she took herself off to the bathroom where I thought she was having a shower. She spent three-quarters of an hour in there."

Miss Morey went outside and looked through the bathroom window. "I saw her standing against the bathroom door with her eyes open. I thought she was ignoring me," she said.

"My boyfriend returned home and launched the lock off the door. Yasmin had her dressing gown on and the belt was around the door and her neck. She was unconscious. I released the belt, then tried to resuscitate her three times."

Mark Webb, Miss Morey's boyfriend, called the emergency services and paramedics took her to Worthing Hospital, where she was pronounced dead.

Paul Rayment-Browder, 42, a printing company proprietor and Miss Morey's ex-husband, told the inquest that Yasmin had spent the weekend with him at the beach before killing herself on the Monday. "She had everything to look forward to," he said.

Â© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2006.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:45 am

oiy her poor family, seems something far darker than just not being able to watch a TV show but still how very sad

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:53 am

minks wrote: oiy her poor family, seems something far darker than just not being able to watch a TV show but still how very sad

It is strange. As you say, there is something else not being told here.

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:55 am

that really sad.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:00 am

DesignerGal wrote: that really sad.

It always makes me sad to think kids so young carry such awful burdens that they could even know how to commit suicide, I just can't imagine at age 11 for myself even having that much awfulness in my life ... way back then. Never mind the knowledge of how to commit suicide.

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:04 am

minks wrote: It always makes me sad to think kids so young carry such awful burdens that they could even know how to commit suicide, I just can't imagine at age 11 for myself even having that much awfulness in my life ... way back then. Never mind the knowledge of how to commit suicide.

I agree, how terrible!

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:22 am

SnoozeControl wrote: No one knows what someone else carries in their minds/hearts/souls... but when a family member or friend commits suicide, the survivors always feel guilt for not realizing there was something wrong.

It's no one's fault, we're ultimately responsible only for ourselves.

Yes, but this was a child! I just can't immagine that this all happened out of the clear blue sky. It's just so sad.

The article said that the mother went outside and looked through the window and saw her daughter and thought she was ignoring her? Is she a moron? You would know the difference between someone ignoring you and being strasngled to death!

I agree, there is a whole lot more to this story.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:24 am

SnoozeControl wrote: No one knows what someone else carries in their minds/hearts/souls... but when a family member or friend commits suicide, the survivors always feel guilt for not realizing there was something wrong.

It's no one's fault, we're ultimately responsible only for ourselves.

Snooze, a fully grown adult is only responsible for themselves. But an 11 year old child is the responsibility and product of the parents. At this age, suicide should not be on the child's mind. And if the mother was unaware of the child's mind, then this itself is probably a clue as to the reason the child hung herself.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:30 am

SnoozeControl wrote: How would anyone know what's on anyone else's mind? Age has nothing to do with it.

Good point, indeed and often we are quick to jump on the parents for not being in tune with their kids, it's a fine line.... be the kids friend, be the kids mentor

some kids just can't go to their parents and say what is on their mind, how they hurt, who is hurting them, what is hurting them, confusing them, stressing them, so as a parent how do you take responsibility.

I would be the first to blame society... we as a whole stress our kids out way to much forcing adult issues down their throats WAY TO EARLY. This 11 year old died not because dicipline or a TV show, likely she commited suicide thinking it was her call for help and didn't realize the end was truly the end.

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:32 am

SnoozeControl wrote: How would anyone know what's on anyone else's mind? Age has nothing to do with it.

It's just hard to accept that this was the first time she showed any signs of being unstable. If she was troubled, it was the mother's responsibility to get her the help she needed.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:33 am

CheshireCat wrote: It's just hard to accept that this was the first time she showed any signs of being unstable. If she was troubled, it was the mother's responsibility to get her the help she needed.

Some times parents are as unstable as kids

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:34 am

SnoozeControl wrote: What Minks said!

Ultimately, we're all self contained units that make our own decisions, no matter how much that hurts our parents/family/friends.

Okay, shutting up now.

Gawd no tis a good discussion carry on

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:46 am

SnoozeControl wrote: PS

And what about the children that torment animals and grow up to be serial killers? Can we say Ted Bundy? Or those two boys in Colorado that shot up their school? Shouldn't their parents have been aware of that?

That's an excellent point. It is just so scarry to think of it. I don't have children, so my heart goes out to all the parrents out there. I can't immagine the pressure. I have a cat and I don't let her outside because I am terrified that someone would kill her or she would get hit, I would be a basket case as a mother!

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:00 am

Sounds like an out of control mother to me. I don't think an 11 year

old should be watching Big Brother to begin with. And certainly

shouldn't be chucking stuff out of her room. May be a divorce

situation, a lot of pain for all concerned, and the mom has a boyfriend?

Not trying to lay blame it's just that I think so many parents let

kids get too far gone without enough support.

The little girl should probably have been seeing a therapist to help her

work through things.

And it IS really weird that the mom could look through the window and

not realize.

I feel very sad for her, the rest of her life she is probably not going to

be able to get rid of the guilt.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:02 am

We cannot blame this on society alone, neither can this be blamed on the parents, nor the child. It may well be a combination of things. Nonetheless, a child's personality is largely the result of the influence of the parents first and of the social milieu second.

There is insufficient information in the article to form a proper conclusion, but blame is not the answer. Rather, we can use it for discussion in the hope that we can learn the real lessons.

From the outset, the parents are responsible for the welfare of the child, a duty borne out of love. The parents know from personal experience, the tribulations of childhood and could be one step ahead of the child's experiences. This child was going through puberty, but the trust and confidence of the family should have already been in place. Stern discipline is not the way to bring up children, but rather, it is necessary to create an atmosphere conducive to open discussion and candidness.

Snooze, you are ultimately correct. Not even the parents can know every little thought going on in a child's mind. But a lot can be done to create a bond which would have prevented the thought of suicide arising in the first place.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:04 am

CheshireCat wrote: That's an excellent point. It is just so scarry to think of it. I don't have children, so my heart goes out to all the parrents out there. I can't immagine the pressure. I have a cat and I don't let her outside because I am terrified that someone would kill her or she would get hit, I would be a basket case as a mother!

Ah raising Kids takes all kinds of things into account, parents upbringing, common sense (or lack there of), trial and error (especially with a first child), peer influence (both child and parents), Maturity (again or lack there of, look how many kids are raising kids out there ) Society dictates a lot as well.

It's not always easy and rewarding we can only hope we do our best and teach kids to make the right choices as well do everything in our power to ensure they thrive, good food, good shelter, good examples.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:06 am

Valerie wrote: And it IS really weird that the mom could look through the window and

not realize.

The mother could see her eyes were open, but could not see the rope around her neck. Of course, her hair may have hidden the rope, but the rope would have to come out somewhere.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:10 am

Both of the parents to this child speak highly of the girl, saying this behavior was very unusual for her hmmmmmm perhaps she was a victim of drugs? Of course we will never know and I tell ya any parent who has to deal with a child with a drug addiciton WILL NEVER KNOW their child.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:12 am

SnoozeControl wrote: I agree, but there are so many situations that preclude this. I'm not talking about this situation in particular, I mean if the person is mentally ill and there's nothing that the parent can do to rectify the problem.

You know what bothers me? The media instantly saying its the fault of the parent for not allowing some television program being watched. I really dislike 'labeling' things, life isn't that easy.

It is kind of BS isn't it. Again I point out the childs behaviour during the spat was unusual (according to the parents), so I would suspect she had been diciplined in the past and didn't act so badly before....

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:17 am

OpenMind wrote: The mother could see her eyes were open, but could not see the rope around her neck. Of course, her hair may have hidden the rope, but the rope would have to come out somewhere.

I realize that but again, I just don't think you leave a child in the

bathroom that long anyway, nor do you lose control such that you

have to walk around to look through a window. You try the door, you

get no voice response from the child (not even "Go AWAY") then you

break in. Still might not have been soon enough.

:-1

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:23 am

valerie wrote: I realize that but again, I just don't think you leave a child in the

bathroom that long anyway, nor do you lose control such that you

have to walk around to look through a window. You try the door, you

get no voice response from the child (not even "Go AWAY") then you

break in. Still might not have been soon enough.

:-1

I agree! If she was throwing a tantrum and acting out, she should not have been allowed to lock her self in anywhere!

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:24 am

valerie wrote: I realize that but again, I just don't think you leave a child in the

bathroom that long anyway, nor do you lose control such that you

have to walk around to look through a window. You try the door, you

get no voice response from the child (not even "Go AWAY") then you

break in. Still might not have been soon enough.

:-1

Tough call there Val, an 11 year old girl is just getting into alone time, and often times they spend ages in the bathroom, they have make up and clothing they have to work on in the mirror, even if they are not going out. In my honest opinion long spells in the bathroom is not uncommon, but you have a splendid point you would think if that behaviour was so off the wall the mother would have clued in to check up for at least a voice confirmation from the girl.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:32 am

SnoozeControl wrote: You can not "control" your children and anyone that thinks so is delusional. If she wanted to kill herself, she would've found somewhere else to do it.

exactly and the older they get the more outside influences they have... unless you lock a child up, you pretty much fly by the seat of your pants as a parent when they hit teen-dom.

Children are not born with "coping skills" these are learned. Often a tantrum is a result of confusion, the child does not know how to manage the situation because it's new to them. They kind of resort back to an animal like stage and get their hackls up and lash out because they hurt. Or run and hide thinking this removes them from the hurt (I say hurt as a reference to the situation because they likely are hurt because they have been disallowed something) As a parent we have to stop this and set the child straight usually by means of discussion, patience, and teaching.

Egads I sound like Dr Spock sorry

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:36 am

SnoozeControl wrote: You can not "control" your children and anyone that thinks so is delusional. If she wanted to kill herself, she would've found somewhere else to do it.

My brother had a boy in his class that shot himself when they were 9 years old. We went to church with the familly too. It was such a tradgedy, they were such nice people. No one had a clue! He never acted out or seemed troubled.

This all just makes me so sad.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:36 am

SnoozeControl wrote: I agree, but there are so many situations that preclude this. I'm not talking about this situation in particular, I mean if the person is mentally ill and there's nothing that the parent can do to rectify the problem.

You know what bothers me? The media instantly saying its the fault of the parent for not allowing some television program being watched. I really dislike 'labeling' things, life isn't that easy.

Firstly, the media. The media wouldn't report these stories if it didn't sell the papers. If good news alone sold papers, we would never get to hear about these events. Maybe it's a blessing in disguise. Of course, the quality of the reporting is also important.

My grandparents brought me up and my natural parents have a lot to answer for insofar as I had to go under a child psychologist for two years when I moved. Nonetheless, I kept a lot to myself as was my wont even when I'd hurt myself. My grandparents did not really know what they had taken on and I didn't come to appreciate this until I was appreciably mature enough to think about it.

I have a lot to thank my grandmother for as she took time out for me. Compassion must have been her middle name. She'd had to bring up her own siblings from the age of 15 when her own mother died. And she was a tomboy at heart. My grandfather took away some of the good she done, but I now know more as to why that was.

theia · Post by **theia** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:42 am

SnoozeControl wrote: You can not "control" your children and anyone that thinks so is delusional. If she wanted to kill herself, she would've found somewhere else to do it.

I agree, Snooze.

And whether or not this mother made mistakes (as all parents do), she must be going through hell at present, made only worse, as you said earlier, by the media.

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:43 am

Do you think there is any possibility she didnt? I mean, you know that game that all the kids seem to be playing where they strangle themselves unconcious to get a high. Maybe that happened?

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:47 am

Ok when I first read the article the first thing that came to mind was the girl was a brat. Because she was junking stuff out of her room that was still being used to fix her room up. Then she's told no on watching a show for throwing a tantrum. So I'm thinking the hanging was accidental, she just did it to get back at her mom and things went horribly wrong.

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:50 am

DesignerGal wrote: Do you think there is any possibility she didnt? I mean, you know that game that all the kids seem to be playing where they strangle themselves unconcious to get a high. Maybe that happened?

WHAT?? Are you serious?

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:51 am

CheshireCat wrote: WHAT?? Are you serious?

Yes. Im serious. Its happening all the time now.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:52 am

CheshireCat wrote: WHAT?? Are you serious?

kids do do that.....

DesignerGal · Post by **DesignerGal** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:53 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/education/297656.stm

Hyperventilation - A Deadly Game

[http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~jorchard/Mike/mike.html

Asphyxiation is no way to get a thrill, teens are told

[http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2002 ... 0102n3.htm

FAINTING GAME GETS GIRL, 13, EXPELLED BUT VICTIM SAYS SHE WAS RESPONSIBLE, TOO

?Read the Full Article, Sign up today?

Denver Rocky Mountain News; 5/14/1997; Michael O'Keeffe; Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer

'Fainting game' warnings follow injuries, deaths

[http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst ... int05.html

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 9:55 am

DesignerGal wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/education/297656.stm

Hyperventilation - A Deadly Game

[http://www.cs.uwaterloo.ca/~jorchard/Mike/mike.html

Asphyxiation is no way to get a thrill, teens are told

[http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2002 ... 0102n3.htm

FAINTING GAME GETS GIRL, 13, EXPELLED BUT VICTIM SAYS SHE WAS RESPONSIBLE, TOO

?Read the Full Article, Sign up today?

Denver Rocky Mountain News; 5/14/1997; Michael O'Keeffe; Rocky Mountain News Staff Writer

'Fainting game' warnings follow injuries, deaths

[http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst ... int05.html

Oh my God! I had no idea! That's horrifing! Again, parents, God bless you. Wow!

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:04 am

CheshireCat wrote: Oh my God! I had no idea! That's horrifing! Again, parents, God bless you. Wow!

Weird stuff isn't it....

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:10 am

minks wrote: Weird stuff isn't it....

Amazing! I knew kids did stuff like sniff glue and huff paint fumes, we had one guy here die from breathing Pam fumes (about twenty years ago), but this is just over the top. I'm in disbelief!

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:10 am

minks wrote: Weird stuff isn't it....

So much more important to be not just parents, but a friend to your kids. A real friend.

Uncle Kram · Post by **Uncle Kram** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:13 am

This sounds more about punishing her Mother than taking her own life as a lot of suicides are. Very sad.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:14 am

minks wrote: Tough call there Val, an 11 year old girl is just getting into alone time, and often times they spend ages in the bathroom, they have make up and clothing they have to work on in the mirror, even if they are not going out. In my honest opinion long spells in the bathroom is not uncommon, but you have a splendid point you would think if that behaviour was so off the wall the mother would have clued in to check up for at least a voice confirmation from the girl.

I know, but again, I wouldn't allow an 11 year old make-up, either.

I think parents have to command respect. I'm going to set myself up

as really an old biddy (which I AM!!) but I would never in a million years

have done anything even close to that with my parents. The bathroom

was a place you went to get done and get out. If my mom said hurry

up and get out, there was no quibble. You just did.

It seems also that even if it was a normal thing for the girl to stay

in the bathroom for long periods of time, that on this occasion, after

a fairly recent (time frame) blow-up of some sort between mother and

daughter, that the "normal" be suspended for at least that particular

instance.

valerie · Post by **valerie** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:18 am

SnoozeControl wrote: You can not "control" your children and anyone that thinks so is delusional. If she wanted to kill herself, she would've found somewhere else to do it.

I didn't mean control as far as the suicide, if that is what it was.

I meant control as an ongoing habit of life. And not in a bad way, either.

In a way to command respect. That you would never think to yell at

your parents or throw things because that's not what you do as a family.

Parents respect the child, too. Catch more flies with honey than you do

with vinegar.

At the very least, the best part of this story is that it's made us all

talk and think about it. That can only be a good thing.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:27 am

valerie wrote: I know, but again, I wouldn't allow an 11 year old make-up, either. Well Val this is getting fun (please don't worry I am being light here) It isn't so much about what you allow or don't allow it is how much you allow. At 11 they will experiment, soooo you allow a little, if you absolutely forbid it guess what, they sneak it from friends or steal it from stores.... Kids are all about experimenting, and as parents we have to allow a small safe bit of experimenting as well accompany it with ... education. If make up is an 11 year olds only vice do the HAPPY DANCE, it beats drugs, alcohol or sex.

I think parents have to command respect. With this comes kids demanding respect back, and in these days it's a half way meeting point, the harder we come down on kids the stronger they rebel, we have hit an era of .... its all about me and if kids get to restricted they will find something else to do to prove their points I'm going to set myself up

as really an old biddy (which I AM!!) but I would never in a million years

have done anything even close to that with my parents. The bathroom

was a place you went to get done and get out. If my mom said hurry

up and get out, there was no quibble. You just did. Me as well, but times have changed.

It seems also that even if it was a normal thing for the girl to stay

in the bathroom for long periods of time, that on this occasion, after

a fairly recent (time frame) blow-up of some sort between mother and

daughter, that the "normal" be suspended for at least that particular

instance. Oh I agree, a child is particularly volatile after a blow out with parents, a parent should more proactive in checking in on that child.

CheshireCat · Post by **CheshireCat** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:28 am

valerie wrote: I didn't mean control as far as the suicide, if that is what it was.

I meant control as an ongoing habit of life. And not in a bad way, either.

In a way to command respect. That you would never think to yell at

your parents or throw things because that's not what you do as a family.

Parents respect the child, too. Catch more flies with honey than you do

with vinegar.

At the very least, the best part of this story is that it's made us all

talk and think about it. That can only be a good thing.

Exactly! All it took for me was a stern look from my father and I knew to cool it. It seems that the kids are in control of the families these days. You see it all the time, in stores. The kid is screaming it's head off and the mother is pleading with them to behave. Never would've happened in my family. My mother would jerk me right out of that store and set me straight in a heart beat! i think parents must fear the whole abuse allegation.

OpenMind · Post by **OpenMind** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:32 am

It's true that the law doesn't help one iota. There are ways around that though.

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:33 am

valerie wrote: I didn't mean control as far as the suicide, if that is what it was.

I meant control as an ongoing habit of life. And not in a bad way, either.

In a way to command respect. That you would never think to yell at

your parents or throw things because that's not what you do as a family.

Parents respect the child, too. Catch more flies with honey than you do

with vinegar.

At the very least, the best part of this story is that it's made us all

talk and think about it. That can only be a good thing.

you got it right there Val, command respect and with that, a parent should also act respectful to others, kids learn from example, so if the mother was prone to tantrum like behaviour where do we think a child will get it from, if the parents faught openly in front of the child then the child will see this as acceptable behavior.

And if children have peers who act this way, said child will pick this up there too. SO much influences kids

Val please don't think I am tearing your comments apart, I am merely adding to them....