A Roman Catholic woman in Ireland, has accused the world's religions, including Christianity, of doing serious damage to their credibility by ' systematically' discriminating against women down through the centuries.
The dramatic claim is made in a new book by Sr Nellie McLaughlin, an academic and member of the Sisters of Mercy. She lectures on ecology and her book 'Out of Wonder' is a religious interpretation of evolution of the universe. She says that the earliest religions involved "the worship of a devine and powerful Goddess".
She blames the rise of patriarchy, for the decline of goddess worship and the relegation of women to "second class citizenry".
Its all male world in the major religions.
www.unison.ie
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
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capt_buzzard
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A Karenina
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Hmmmm...
(musing a bit) ~ I've always been concerned about the story of Lot offering his virgin daughter to the crowd (who really wanted to rape the visiting angel).
I can only say YUCK to such a thing. Some people have tried to defend Lot's action by saying that he meant to shame the crowd. He never really intended for his daughter to be raped.
Some days I can go with that, and some days I say, "Prove it."
There are a lot of things in religious readings that appear to degrade women. Men who think women should remain barefoot and pregnant, submissive, even "pure", often quote holy works as their basis.
But is it really so? The bible also tells a story of two daughters who got their dad drunk, slept with him, and then left him. Their "noble" purpose was to make sure their father's line didn't die out. So is the bible just telling this story, or encouraging women to commit incest? (ewww)
To my mind, people interpret things to fit into their perspective. Religious readings are no different. Thoughts?
(musing a bit) ~ I've always been concerned about the story of Lot offering his virgin daughter to the crowd (who really wanted to rape the visiting angel).
I can only say YUCK to such a thing. Some people have tried to defend Lot's action by saying that he meant to shame the crowd. He never really intended for his daughter to be raped.
Some days I can go with that, and some days I say, "Prove it."
There are a lot of things in religious readings that appear to degrade women. Men who think women should remain barefoot and pregnant, submissive, even "pure", often quote holy works as their basis.
But is it really so? The bible also tells a story of two daughters who got their dad drunk, slept with him, and then left him. Their "noble" purpose was to make sure their father's line didn't die out. So is the bible just telling this story, or encouraging women to commit incest? (ewww)
To my mind, people interpret things to fit into their perspective. Religious readings are no different. Thoughts?
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
To a large extent Captn Buzzard is correct. However many churches today realize the error of their ways and are now changing. The United Church and the Anglican church are among two of which I am aware.
Change is coming slowly albeit far to slowly but it is coming.
This is not a justification for what the tradition has been but it was in the early years a cultural thing.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Change is coming slowly albeit far to slowly but it is coming.
This is not a justification for what the tradition has been but it was in the early years a cultural thing.
Shalom
Ted :-6
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Discrimination only bothers you if you let it.
Harrassment is another thing.
I think there are a number of religions that do not discriminate against women, they just don't have the large number of followers. But then, the women who belong to religions that do discriminate against women probably don't discriminate against themselves so that should kill out about half the population of discriminators off the top.
If she wants to worship a goddess, worship one. Why should it be pushed upon anyone any more than any other religion?
Harrassment is another thing.
I think there are a number of religions that do not discriminate against women, they just don't have the large number of followers. But then, the women who belong to religions that do discriminate against women probably don't discriminate against themselves so that should kill out about half the population of discriminators off the top.
If she wants to worship a goddess, worship one. Why should it be pushed upon anyone any more than any other religion?
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
So, what is discrimination against women in religion? One would say it’s stoning a woman to death for bringing shame on a man. Another would say it’s not allowing a woman to be a Priest. Isn’t there a need for order when people come together for religious purposes? If in the interest of order a patriarchal model is used, is it wrong? Does having differing roles based on gender mean equality is missing?
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
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Bill Sikes
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
A Karenina wrote: Some people have tried to defend Lot's action by saying that he meant to shame the crowd.
Said Lot, "I've escaped from Gomorrah,
The city of sin, shame and horrah,
It wasn't my fault
That my wife turned to salt,
So I'll marry my daughter tomorrah."
A Karenina wrote: There are a lot of things in religious readings that appear to degrade women. Men who think women should remain barefoot and pregnant, submissive, even "pure", often quote holy works as their basis.
Erm, you missed out "chained to the sink".
Said Lot, "I've escaped from Gomorrah,
The city of sin, shame and horrah,
It wasn't my fault
That my wife turned to salt,
So I'll marry my daughter tomorrah."
A Karenina wrote: There are a lot of things in religious readings that appear to degrade women. Men who think women should remain barefoot and pregnant, submissive, even "pure", often quote holy works as their basis.
Erm, you missed out "chained to the sink".
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A Karenina
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Clint wrote: Does having differing roles based on gender mean equality is missing?
Yes! Equality would mean that everyone has the same opportunity to have any role. It would mean that the roles are given to those who are most able, and if the sex of the person is your basis for who is able or not, then it's another form of prejudice.
Bill, chaining to the sink is no longer done - it interferes with modern plumbing. LOL.
Yes! Equality would mean that everyone has the same opportunity to have any role. It would mean that the roles are given to those who are most able, and if the sex of the person is your basis for who is able or not, then it's another form of prejudice.
Bill, chaining to the sink is no longer done - it interferes with modern plumbing. LOL.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
It is simply not true that the prime motivation of religion is control of people. Though in some churches that would appear to be the case. However, it is not true of all.
There have been major changes in the Anglican church in that it now ordains women either as a priest or even a Bishop. The United Church as also made great steps in that direction.
Patriarchy is a cultural issue from ancient times.
Shalom
Ted :-6
There have been major changes in the Anglican church in that it now ordains women either as a priest or even a Bishop. The United Church as also made great steps in that direction.
Patriarchy is a cultural issue from ancient times.
Shalom
Ted :-6
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Ted wrote: It is simply not true that the prime motivation of religion is control of people. Though in some churches that would appear to be the case. However, it is not true of all.
There have been major changes in the Anglican church in that it now ordains women either as a priest or even a Bishop. The United Church as also made great steps in that direction.
Patriarchy is a cultural issue from ancient times.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I certainly agree that it is not the motivation of all religions to gain control and power over others. I’m afraid however, that some religious groups blatantly control and manipulate to get power into the hands of a few. Sadly, some of them do it in the name of Jesus.
Are you saying that Yeshua had 12 male Apostles because he was yielding to cultural norms rather than to do what was right? Did Moshe, at the bidding of his father-in-law, appoint all men to leadership in contradiction to God's will?
There have been major changes in the Anglican church in that it now ordains women either as a priest or even a Bishop. The United Church as also made great steps in that direction.
Patriarchy is a cultural issue from ancient times.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I certainly agree that it is not the motivation of all religions to gain control and power over others. I’m afraid however, that some religious groups blatantly control and manipulate to get power into the hands of a few. Sadly, some of them do it in the name of Jesus.
Are you saying that Yeshua had 12 male Apostles because he was yielding to cultural norms rather than to do what was right? Did Moshe, at the bidding of his father-in-law, appoint all men to leadership in contradiction to God's will?
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Clint :-6
I am certainly in agreement that many groups are out to exercise control.
Yeshua did make overt use of women in the positive sense. However, the cultural norm would have didtated that his disciples were to be men. Although there is some sujggestion that Mary Magdalene was also an apostle but there is no real record of that. If he had not fit in the the culture of the day he would have had another strike against him.
Remembering also that the gospels are not necessarily historically accurate but are the witness of the developing traditions within the early church.
It has taken the church a long time to realize the cultural implications and to realize that the culture has changed. It is coming faster now but still there is good deal to go.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I am certainly in agreement that many groups are out to exercise control.
Yeshua did make overt use of women in the positive sense. However, the cultural norm would have didtated that his disciples were to be men. Although there is some sujggestion that Mary Magdalene was also an apostle but there is no real record of that. If he had not fit in the the culture of the day he would have had another strike against him.
Remembering also that the gospels are not necessarily historically accurate but are the witness of the developing traditions within the early church.
It has taken the church a long time to realize the cultural implications and to realize that the culture has changed. It is coming faster now but still there is good deal to go.
Shalom
Ted :-6
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Clint :-6
Regarding Moshe: If he is more then a myth then he chose men because of the cultural aspects of the day. We must remember that the sacred writings are man's response to his experience of the Divine. Thus his interpretation is going to be affected by the previous history, the culture of the day, the existing belief systems, their conceptualization ability, their basic fund of knowledge, and their language: probably a few I've left out.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Regarding Moshe: If he is more then a myth then he chose men because of the cultural aspects of the day. We must remember that the sacred writings are man's response to his experience of the Divine. Thus his interpretation is going to be affected by the previous history, the culture of the day, the existing belief systems, their conceptualization ability, their basic fund of knowledge, and their language: probably a few I've left out.
Shalom
Ted :-6
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Ted,
So, everything is evolving into a perfect world that lately has been moving toward perfection faster than ever. All we need to do is be quiet, let the people who really know what’s going on engineer the future according to the most recent concepts. There is really nothing to anchor to except our world view. There is no need to look forward to the return of the Messiah, because He won’t be needed.
I believe Yeshua went to the cross because he wouldn’t be poured into their cultural mold. Keeping that in mind I can’t imagine He would ever roll over on the gender issue just so they wouldn’t get upset? What He did lined up with the order of His creation. He respected, protected and included women but He didn’t give them roles that were created to be filled by men. Conversely, he didn’t assign men to roles created for women.
An esoteric, suspected, exception to the rule doesn't invalidate the rule.
If Moshe is a myth then so is the Torah. If the Torah was born of a myth then so were the teachings contained therein. If those teachings were myths and Yeshua repeated them, then He based His teachings on mythology. If Yeshua’s teachings are myth based, then our hope is without a foundation. I won’t go there.
Even in Galatians 4 where Sha’ul talks about making a midrash, he goes to ground in the Torah. The Bible contains both midrash and plain meaning. When it uses midrash it usually makes it clear that it is midrash, as Sha’ul did in verse 24.
Shalom rav
Clint
So, everything is evolving into a perfect world that lately has been moving toward perfection faster than ever. All we need to do is be quiet, let the people who really know what’s going on engineer the future according to the most recent concepts. There is really nothing to anchor to except our world view. There is no need to look forward to the return of the Messiah, because He won’t be needed.
I believe Yeshua went to the cross because he wouldn’t be poured into their cultural mold. Keeping that in mind I can’t imagine He would ever roll over on the gender issue just so they wouldn’t get upset? What He did lined up with the order of His creation. He respected, protected and included women but He didn’t give them roles that were created to be filled by men. Conversely, he didn’t assign men to roles created for women.
An esoteric, suspected, exception to the rule doesn't invalidate the rule.
If Moshe is a myth then so is the Torah. If the Torah was born of a myth then so were the teachings contained therein. If those teachings were myths and Yeshua repeated them, then He based His teachings on mythology. If Yeshua’s teachings are myth based, then our hope is without a foundation. I won’t go there.
Even in Galatians 4 where Sha’ul talks about making a midrash, he goes to ground in the Torah. The Bible contains both midrash and plain meaning. When it uses midrash it usually makes it clear that it is midrash, as Sha’ul did in verse 24.
Shalom rav
Clint
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Clint :-6
No the world is not all rosy and cushy. It is still our duty and calling to try to make it a better place for man to live. As Christians it is our duty to foster the kingdom of God here on earth. This kingdom will ultimately lead on into eternity.
There are many interpetations to Jesus' death not just one and all have valid views. The primary event that lead to his cruucifixion was the fact that he caused a great upset in the temple. He was both a social and spiritual "disturber" as far as the authorities at the time were concerned. It looked as if he was about to create a major revolution, which of course was not the case but nontheless that was the straw that broke the camels back.
I have absolutly no problem with those who follow the idea that he died for their sins. I also have no problem with those who see his death more as a ransom.
As far a Moshe goes, historically he is in question. The Pentateuch was passed on as oral tradition for centuries before it was finally culled from three or four diffeent sources into one piece of writing. This happened during the Babylonian exile. Some of the stories written therein were in fact borrowed from the Babylonians and the Mesopotamians as well as other local tribes. The Bible does contain kernels of history throughout.
The archaeological record simply does not support the Bible as a history book but it does support the fact that there are kernels of history throughout.
Unfortunately we will have to disagree on the idea of midrash and metaphor. Generally the Bible is midrashic from cover to cover. This of course involves a lot of metaphor as well. This is not just my theory or idea but is the present state of a lot of modern theology. I have been lucky enough to find many scholars who thought as I had come to believe over the many years of formal and informal study.
God's cause is the betterment of man. Jesus proclaimed the imminent kingdom of God. In this Jesus or Yeshua if you wish we see the decisive reality and fullness of God.
The Christian faith is not about right belief, or dogma or doctrine but it is about a transforming living relationship with the living Risen Lord.
Shalom
Ted :-6
No the world is not all rosy and cushy. It is still our duty and calling to try to make it a better place for man to live. As Christians it is our duty to foster the kingdom of God here on earth. This kingdom will ultimately lead on into eternity.
There are many interpetations to Jesus' death not just one and all have valid views. The primary event that lead to his cruucifixion was the fact that he caused a great upset in the temple. He was both a social and spiritual "disturber" as far as the authorities at the time were concerned. It looked as if he was about to create a major revolution, which of course was not the case but nontheless that was the straw that broke the camels back.
I have absolutly no problem with those who follow the idea that he died for their sins. I also have no problem with those who see his death more as a ransom.
As far a Moshe goes, historically he is in question. The Pentateuch was passed on as oral tradition for centuries before it was finally culled from three or four diffeent sources into one piece of writing. This happened during the Babylonian exile. Some of the stories written therein were in fact borrowed from the Babylonians and the Mesopotamians as well as other local tribes. The Bible does contain kernels of history throughout.
The archaeological record simply does not support the Bible as a history book but it does support the fact that there are kernels of history throughout.
Unfortunately we will have to disagree on the idea of midrash and metaphor. Generally the Bible is midrashic from cover to cover. This of course involves a lot of metaphor as well. This is not just my theory or idea but is the present state of a lot of modern theology. I have been lucky enough to find many scholars who thought as I had come to believe over the many years of formal and informal study.
God's cause is the betterment of man. Jesus proclaimed the imminent kingdom of God. In this Jesus or Yeshua if you wish we see the decisive reality and fullness of God.
The Christian faith is not about right belief, or dogma or doctrine but it is about a transforming living relationship with the living Risen Lord.
Shalom
Ted :-6
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capt_buzzard
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Yeshua went to the cross because he was a revolutionary. He wanted change. This in turn upset the Romans and others. I don't believe he was interested in creating a new religion.
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
capt :-6
I can certainly agree with your revolutionary statement.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I can certainly agree with your revolutionary statement.
Shalom
Ted :-6
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capt_buzzard
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Shalom :-6 :-6
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Ted wrote: Clint :-6
God's cause is the betterment of man. Jesus proclaimed the imminent kingdom of God. In this Jesus or Yeshua if you wish we see the decisive reality and fullness of God.
The Christian faith is not about right belief, or dogma or doctrine but it is about a transforming living relationship with the living Risen Lord.
I guess we will just have to celebrate what we agree on. And on your last two paragraphs I can and do wholeheartedly agree.
Shalom rav
Clint
God's cause is the betterment of man. Jesus proclaimed the imminent kingdom of God. In this Jesus or Yeshua if you wish we see the decisive reality and fullness of God.
The Christian faith is not about right belief, or dogma or doctrine but it is about a transforming living relationship with the living Risen Lord.
I guess we will just have to celebrate what we agree on. And on your last two paragraphs I can and do wholeheartedly agree.
Shalom rav
Clint
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Clint :-6
Sounds fair to me.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Sounds fair to me.
Shalom
Ted :-6
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A Karenina
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Clint wrote: I believe Yeshua went to the cross because he wouldn’t be poured into their cultural mold. Keeping that in mind I can’t imagine He would ever roll over on the gender issue just so they wouldn’t get upset? What He did lined up with the order of His creation. He respected, protected and included women but He didn’t give them roles that were created to be filled by men. Conversely, he didn’t assign men to roles created for women.
"Roll over" on the gender issue? Have you considered what that implies?
There is really no way for you to know exactly what Jesus thought of women and their "roles". There is no complete record of any of it.
You use your bible to uphold your bible.
Clint wrote: If Moshe is a myth then so is the Torah. If the Torah was born of a myth then so were the teachings contained therein. If those teachings were myths and Yeshua repeated them, then He based His teachings on mythology. If Yeshua’s teachings are myth based, then our hope is without a foundation. I won’t go there.
If it's all myth, what are you left with? Go there temporarily. Discover something about you.
"Roll over" on the gender issue? Have you considered what that implies?
There is really no way for you to know exactly what Jesus thought of women and their "roles". There is no complete record of any of it.
You use your bible to uphold your bible.
Clint wrote: If Moshe is a myth then so is the Torah. If the Torah was born of a myth then so were the teachings contained therein. If those teachings were myths and Yeshua repeated them, then He based His teachings on mythology. If Yeshua’s teachings are myth based, then our hope is without a foundation. I won’t go there.
If it's all myth, what are you left with? Go there temporarily. Discover something about you.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
A Karenina wrote: "Roll over" on the gender issue? Have you considered what that implies?
Yes I have. He didn’t select 12 men by accident. He didn’t select them because it was the culturally correct thing to do. He would have appointed women if he had deemed it appropriate.
I suppose the phrase “roll over†came from the gutter and I failed to consider that some people might view it that way.
Yes I have. He didn’t select 12 men by accident. He didn’t select them because it was the culturally correct thing to do. He would have appointed women if he had deemed it appropriate.
I suppose the phrase “roll over†came from the gutter and I failed to consider that some people might view it that way.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
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A Karenina
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Clint wrote: Yes I have. He didn’t select 12 men by accident. He didn’t select them because it was the culturally correct thing to do. He would have appointed women if he had deemed it appropriate.
We don't know if he appointed women to do things or not. That was my point.
Clint wrote: I suppose the phrase “roll over†came from the gutter and I failed to consider that some people might view it that way.
It took me 3 reads to figure out what you're saying here.
Let's try it again -
To say that Jesus did not allow women certain roles because he gave in, rolled over, caved, or however you want to put it...if you say that, then you're admitting that there is a great deal of discrimination against women by the church, and that such treatment was wrong.
To say that Jesus refused to allow women certain roles because they were women, and that this was right and good according to a book written by men and upheld by men is also discrimination against women.
Do you see?
We don't know if he appointed women to do things or not. That was my point.
Clint wrote: I suppose the phrase “roll over†came from the gutter and I failed to consider that some people might view it that way.
It took me 3 reads to figure out what you're saying here.
Let's try it again -
To say that Jesus did not allow women certain roles because he gave in, rolled over, caved, or however you want to put it...if you say that, then you're admitting that there is a great deal of discrimination against women by the church, and that such treatment was wrong.
To say that Jesus refused to allow women certain roles because they were women, and that this was right and good according to a book written by men and upheld by men is also discrimination against women.
Do you see?
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
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capt_buzzard
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
How do we know He did not have more women in his little band. All other religions have the Male as the Iman, Leader, Rabbi and so on.
We don't know for certain that Yeshua (Jesus) just selected men. There could have been 12 women instead of men. But the Church of that time thought it politically correct to have males. And hasn't it been so down through centuries. The Roman Catholic Church proves this point.
We don't know for certain that Yeshua (Jesus) just selected men. There could have been 12 women instead of men. But the Church of that time thought it politically correct to have males. And hasn't it been so down through centuries. The Roman Catholic Church proves this point.
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
What about this:
All women's libbers discriminate against men. If women had been the founders of the major world religions would the problem be of the reverse?
All women's libbers discriminate against men. If women had been the founders of the major world religions would the problem be of the reverse?
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
koan wrote: What about this:
All women's libbers discriminate against men. If women had been the founders of the major world religions would the problem be of the reverse?
i stay out of religious conversations, but have to say...if it were not for "women's libbers" i would not be working in a male-dominated environment and actually a training officer to males. who, incidently, respect me. not being argumentative, just expressing appreciation to females who fought the good fight against discrimination when i was a kid. i grew up knowing i could do anything. and i certainly don't discriminate against men. i have 3 fine sons, a wonderful brother, my father was my heart and a man of honor, and my darling has ALL my respect. not to mention the brave men i work with. REAL men appreciate strong women.
All women's libbers discriminate against men. If women had been the founders of the major world religions would the problem be of the reverse?
i stay out of religious conversations, but have to say...if it were not for "women's libbers" i would not be working in a male-dominated environment and actually a training officer to males. who, incidently, respect me. not being argumentative, just expressing appreciation to females who fought the good fight against discrimination when i was a kid. i grew up knowing i could do anything. and i certainly don't discriminate against men. i have 3 fine sons, a wonderful brother, my father was my heart and a man of honor, and my darling has ALL my respect. not to mention the brave men i work with. REAL men appreciate strong women.
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A Karenina
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
koan wrote: What about this:
All women's libbers discriminate against men. If women had been the founders of the major world religions would the problem be of the reverse?
From what I've read so far, women were the "founders" or at least a major part of religion before the Judeo-Christian traditions took over. I haven't found anything yet that points to women keeping men as second-class citizens. However, considering history, I would surprised if such a society did not exist somewhere, if only in response to the fire and sword invasion of male-dominated societies.
Koan, I'm astonished at your declaration about women's libbers. I keep wondering if you're being sarcastic, but there's not enough verbage for me to guess.
There is an embarassingly vocal group who do hate men, who do say ridiculous things like all sex in the US is rape, and who fight for stupid causes like the right to play golf on a men's only course. These are the minority, and one can hardly define all libbers or feminists by them.
Some of us have switched to calling ourselves humanists. The point we make is that ALL people should be able to choose who they are and live according to their individual dreams. If a man chooses to stay home and raise the children, let him. If a woman chooses a career rather than a "traditional" role of nurturing, let her. If each person felt completely free to follow what they love most, how much more wonderful our lives would be - for all of us. How much more progress we could make as a whole.
People should never be bound by their biology. It is not a man versus woman thing. It is simply that women are also human beings, equipped with the same dreams, needs, wants, feelings, and potential as men. We should not be relegated to a second class position, but neither should men.
Combined, men and women can accomplish awesome things, beyond making children. We each have talents and skills that complement each other, so long as both men and women can honestly see and appreciate the value of each other. This value is wasted if we limit it to traditional roles for either sex.
On a personal note, it has been over 6 years since I left my husband, and 3 years since he died. I make peace with it slowly. I'm no longer angry at him and in fact have begun to feel a great deal of sorrow on his behalf.
But I still feel fury whenever I run into the same attitudes that made me literally move across the country to save my own life. If I disagreed with him, I wasn't "listening properly". If I wanted something beyond our home and children, like when I enrolled in a college class, I was physically punished to the degree that I couldn't walk and was put on pain killers, which were denied me by my husband so that I "learned my lesson". My life, my role, was to serve him and to not have any thoughts or feelings which contradicted his own.
Sure, and didn't the bible tell him this was how it should be? Didn't every preacher I talked to agree with him, telling me to be an obedient wife, and refusing any help - either practical or emotional?
And what is all of this misery based on? A story that makes no freaking sense. God gave two contradictory commandments - go forth and multiply, but do not eat of the fruit which will allow you the ability to go forth and multiply.
So "woman" gives in to temptation? (or curiousity, more like) and eats the fruit. She also offers it to man, who eats it. She didn't shove the fruit down his throat and make him chew. She chose, he chose...and so the punishment was to be banished from paradise, and to have the ability to go forth and multiply. For this, all women are supposed to pay.
It's the logic of a self-centered child. And if God really feels this way about women, whom he created, then I have no use for him. I don't really believe that is God's intent at all. I believe that men who grow up and take half of the responsibility can also see their way clear to accepting women as partners, not servants.
So I feel the fury welling up whenever I am faced with this inequality, and I am glad of it. It's the same fury that finally got me to leave instead of dying there at his hands, with his "god-given" rights. And I will point it out every time I see it...which doesn't mean that anyone will listen, much less understand. But it makes me feel better about myself, and at this point, that's a lot.
All women's libbers discriminate against men. If women had been the founders of the major world religions would the problem be of the reverse?
From what I've read so far, women were the "founders" or at least a major part of religion before the Judeo-Christian traditions took over. I haven't found anything yet that points to women keeping men as second-class citizens. However, considering history, I would surprised if such a society did not exist somewhere, if only in response to the fire and sword invasion of male-dominated societies.
Koan, I'm astonished at your declaration about women's libbers. I keep wondering if you're being sarcastic, but there's not enough verbage for me to guess.
There is an embarassingly vocal group who do hate men, who do say ridiculous things like all sex in the US is rape, and who fight for stupid causes like the right to play golf on a men's only course. These are the minority, and one can hardly define all libbers or feminists by them.
Some of us have switched to calling ourselves humanists. The point we make is that ALL people should be able to choose who they are and live according to their individual dreams. If a man chooses to stay home and raise the children, let him. If a woman chooses a career rather than a "traditional" role of nurturing, let her. If each person felt completely free to follow what they love most, how much more wonderful our lives would be - for all of us. How much more progress we could make as a whole.
People should never be bound by their biology. It is not a man versus woman thing. It is simply that women are also human beings, equipped with the same dreams, needs, wants, feelings, and potential as men. We should not be relegated to a second class position, but neither should men.
Combined, men and women can accomplish awesome things, beyond making children. We each have talents and skills that complement each other, so long as both men and women can honestly see and appreciate the value of each other. This value is wasted if we limit it to traditional roles for either sex.
On a personal note, it has been over 6 years since I left my husband, and 3 years since he died. I make peace with it slowly. I'm no longer angry at him and in fact have begun to feel a great deal of sorrow on his behalf.
But I still feel fury whenever I run into the same attitudes that made me literally move across the country to save my own life. If I disagreed with him, I wasn't "listening properly". If I wanted something beyond our home and children, like when I enrolled in a college class, I was physically punished to the degree that I couldn't walk and was put on pain killers, which were denied me by my husband so that I "learned my lesson". My life, my role, was to serve him and to not have any thoughts or feelings which contradicted his own.
Sure, and didn't the bible tell him this was how it should be? Didn't every preacher I talked to agree with him, telling me to be an obedient wife, and refusing any help - either practical or emotional?
And what is all of this misery based on? A story that makes no freaking sense. God gave two contradictory commandments - go forth and multiply, but do not eat of the fruit which will allow you the ability to go forth and multiply.
So "woman" gives in to temptation? (or curiousity, more like) and eats the fruit. She also offers it to man, who eats it. She didn't shove the fruit down his throat and make him chew. She chose, he chose...and so the punishment was to be banished from paradise, and to have the ability to go forth and multiply. For this, all women are supposed to pay.
It's the logic of a self-centered child. And if God really feels this way about women, whom he created, then I have no use for him. I don't really believe that is God's intent at all. I believe that men who grow up and take half of the responsibility can also see their way clear to accepting women as partners, not servants.
So I feel the fury welling up whenever I am faced with this inequality, and I am glad of it. It's the same fury that finally got me to leave instead of dying there at his hands, with his "god-given" rights. And I will point it out every time I see it...which doesn't mean that anyone will listen, much less understand. But it makes me feel better about myself, and at this point, that's a lot.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
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capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
A Karenina wrote: From what I've read so far, women were the "founders" or at least a major part of religion before the Judeo-Christian traditions took over. I haven't found anything yet that points to women keeping men as second-class citizens. However, considering history, I would surprised if such a society did not exist somewhere, if only in response to the fire and sword invasion of male-dominated societies.
Koan, I'm astonished at your declaration about women's libbers. I keep wondering if you're being sarcastic, but there's not enough verbage for me to guess.
There is an embarassingly vocal group who do hate men, who do say ridiculous things like all sex in the US is rape, and who fight for stupid causes like the right to play golf on a men's only course. These are the minority, and one can hardly define all libbers or feminists by them.
Some of us have switched to calling ourselves humanists. The point we make is that ALL people should be able to choose who they are and live according to their individual dreams. If a man chooses to stay *****and raise the children, let him. If a woman chooses a career rather than a "traditional" role of nurturing, let her. If each person felt completely free to follow what they love most, how much more wonderful our lives would be - for all of us. How much more progress we could make as a whole.
People should never be bound by their biology. It is not a man versus woman thing. It is simply that women are also human beings, equipped with the same dreams, needs, wants, feelings, and potential as men. We should not be relegated to a second class position, but neither should men.
Combined, men and women can accomplish awesome things, beyond making children. We each have talents and skills that complement each other, so long as both men and women can honestly see and appreciate the value of each other. This value is wasted if we limit it to traditional roles for either sex.
On a personal note, it has been over 6 years since I left my husband, and 3 years since he died. I make peace with it slowly. I'm no longer angry at him and in fact have begun to feel a great deal of sorrow on his behalf.
But I still feel fury whenever I run into the same attitudes that made me literally move across the country to save my own life. If I disagreed with him, I wasn't "listening properly". If I wanted something beyond our *****and children, like when I enrolled in a college class, I was physically punished to the degree that I couldn't walk and was put on pain killers, which were denied me by my husband so that I "learned my lesson". My life, my role, was to serve him and to not have any thoughts or feelings which contradicted his own.
Sure, and didn't the bible tell him this was how it should be? Didn't every preacher I talked to agree with him, telling me to be an obedient wife, and refusing any help - either practical or emotional?
And what is all of this misery based on? A story that makes no freaking sense. God gave two contradictory commandments - go forth and multiply, but do not eat of the fruit which will allow you the ability to go forth and multiply.
So "woman" gives in to temptation? (or curiousity, more like) and eats the fruit. She also offers it to man, who eats it. She didn't shove the fruit down his throat and make him chew. She chose, he chose...and so the punishment was to be banished from paradise, and to have the ability to go forth and multiply. For this, all women are supposed to pay.
It's the logic of a self-centered child. And if God really feels this way about women, whom he created, then I have no use for him. I don't really believe that is God's intent at all. I believe that men who grow up and take half of the responsibility can also see their way clear to accepting women as partners, not servants.
So I feel the fury welling up whenever I am faced with this inequality, and I am glad of it. It's the same fury that finally got me to leave instead of dying there at his hands, with his "god-given" rights. And I will point it out every time I see it...which doesn't mean that anyone will listen, much less understand. But it makes me feel better about myself, and at this point, that's a lot. Good Gal.
Koan, I'm astonished at your declaration about women's libbers. I keep wondering if you're being sarcastic, but there's not enough verbage for me to guess.
There is an embarassingly vocal group who do hate men, who do say ridiculous things like all sex in the US is rape, and who fight for stupid causes like the right to play golf on a men's only course. These are the minority, and one can hardly define all libbers or feminists by them.
Some of us have switched to calling ourselves humanists. The point we make is that ALL people should be able to choose who they are and live according to their individual dreams. If a man chooses to stay *****and raise the children, let him. If a woman chooses a career rather than a "traditional" role of nurturing, let her. If each person felt completely free to follow what they love most, how much more wonderful our lives would be - for all of us. How much more progress we could make as a whole.
People should never be bound by their biology. It is not a man versus woman thing. It is simply that women are also human beings, equipped with the same dreams, needs, wants, feelings, and potential as men. We should not be relegated to a second class position, but neither should men.
Combined, men and women can accomplish awesome things, beyond making children. We each have talents and skills that complement each other, so long as both men and women can honestly see and appreciate the value of each other. This value is wasted if we limit it to traditional roles for either sex.
On a personal note, it has been over 6 years since I left my husband, and 3 years since he died. I make peace with it slowly. I'm no longer angry at him and in fact have begun to feel a great deal of sorrow on his behalf.
But I still feel fury whenever I run into the same attitudes that made me literally move across the country to save my own life. If I disagreed with him, I wasn't "listening properly". If I wanted something beyond our *****and children, like when I enrolled in a college class, I was physically punished to the degree that I couldn't walk and was put on pain killers, which were denied me by my husband so that I "learned my lesson". My life, my role, was to serve him and to not have any thoughts or feelings which contradicted his own.
Sure, and didn't the bible tell him this was how it should be? Didn't every preacher I talked to agree with him, telling me to be an obedient wife, and refusing any help - either practical or emotional?
And what is all of this misery based on? A story that makes no freaking sense. God gave two contradictory commandments - go forth and multiply, but do not eat of the fruit which will allow you the ability to go forth and multiply.
So "woman" gives in to temptation? (or curiousity, more like) and eats the fruit. She also offers it to man, who eats it. She didn't shove the fruit down his throat and make him chew. She chose, he chose...and so the punishment was to be banished from paradise, and to have the ability to go forth and multiply. For this, all women are supposed to pay.
It's the logic of a self-centered child. And if God really feels this way about women, whom he created, then I have no use for him. I don't really believe that is God's intent at all. I believe that men who grow up and take half of the responsibility can also see their way clear to accepting women as partners, not servants.
So I feel the fury welling up whenever I am faced with this inequality, and I am glad of it. It's the same fury that finally got me to leave instead of dying there at his hands, with his "god-given" rights. And I will point it out every time I see it...which doesn't mean that anyone will listen, much less understand. But it makes me feel better about myself, and at this point, that's a lot. Good Gal.
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A Karenina
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- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
capt_buzzard wrote: Good Gal.
That made me smile. Thank you! :-6
That made me smile. Thank you! :-6
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
I also do not agree that all women's libbers discriminate against men. I said it expecting outrage...yet that outrage does not exist when such a blanket statement as the title of this thread comes up for debate. To say "all religions" is just as outrageous. A man who abuses a woman does so because she is weaker and he needs to beat on someone to feel better. That he might take statements from the bible to justify his actions does not mean the bible is to blame. The man is to blame. The bible, the Koran...any other book is not to blame for the actions of its followers.
People discriminate against women, blacks, Jews, handicapped...you name it, in an attempt to make themselves feel better. People want to believe they belong to a better "group" than other people, to be elite, to be somehow more special than other people in any way they can find. Religion is not the problem, perhaps human nature is. Guess what, life's not fair.
People discriminate against women, blacks, Jews, handicapped...you name it, in an attempt to make themselves feel better. People want to believe they belong to a better "group" than other people, to be elite, to be somehow more special than other people in any way they can find. Religion is not the problem, perhaps human nature is. Guess what, life's not fair.
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
A Karenina wrote:
To say that Jesus refused to allow women certain roles because they were women, and that this was right and good according to a book written by men and upheld by men is also discrimination against women.
Do you see?
I've done it again. I've engaged in a discussion where there is no basis for agreement. I recognize the authority of God. You recognize the authority of no one...not even God. I'm looking for an anchor and you are looking to see which way the wind is blowing. I'm bowing out of this one.
To say that Jesus refused to allow women certain roles because they were women, and that this was right and good according to a book written by men and upheld by men is also discrimination against women.
Do you see?
I've done it again. I've engaged in a discussion where there is no basis for agreement. I recognize the authority of God. You recognize the authority of no one...not even God. I'm looking for an anchor and you are looking to see which way the wind is blowing. I'm bowing out of this one.
Schooling results in matriculation. Education is a process that changes the learner.
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A Karenina
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
koan wrote: I also do not agree that all women's libbers discriminate against men. I said it expecting outrage...yet that outrage does not exist when such a blanket statement as the title of this thread comes up for debate. To say "all religions" is just as outrageous.
Agreed. And even I, the most anti-religious person I know, stated so in my first post on this thread - that it human interpretation of the bible supports whatever a person wants to find.
koan wrote: A man who abuses a woman does so because she is weaker and he needs to beat on someone to feel better.
This statement annoys the heck outta me, and I don't even know why. If I figure it out and can express it to you passionately but without personal anger, then I'll go further with this part.
koan wrote: That he might take statements from the bible to justify his actions does not mean the bible is to blame. The man is to blame. The bible, the Koran...any other book is not to blame for the actions of its followers.
I think blame is a bad way to go, for me anyway.
The reality of my situation, and for many others like me, is that a specific mindset is passed on from generation to generation. It is protected and insulated from growth or change by elevating it to the realm of holy, of something supposedly unarguable - the will of god. There were a few times my husband felt bad about what he was doing. But then he'd run to those who would support him, namely the church.
Do I hate religion or the bible or believers as a consequence? Of course not - that would be as silly as hating a stone if I stubbed my toe on it. I will, however, watch it closely and defend myself any time it reaches out to grab people. The same as I would carefully watch where I walk after tripping on a stone. And, if others should be coming along the same path where that tricky stone lies, I would caution them about it.
A religion which offers peace of mind, beauty, hope, and a constant striving towards personal betterment is an awesome thing. If people take it in this vein, then I am sincerely happy for them. But if they use it to excuse their behaviors which goes against the essence of what they declare to believe, then I call it like I see it. Hypocrisy.
koan wrote: People discriminate against women, blacks, Jews, handicapped...you name it, in an attempt to make themselves feel better. People want to believe they belong to a better "group" than other people, to be elite, to be somehow more special than other people in any way they can find. Religion is not the problem, perhaps human nature is. Guess what, life's not fair.I don't quite agree with your reasons as to why people hate other people, but it doesn't matter. Religion is the problem for many people because they use it to defend what can never be defended. It is the Holy Red Herring.
Life's not fair...well thank you, Koan. I didn't realize that until you pointed it out so graciously. Let's all make sure we don't try to be fair in our dealings with one another on the basis that life isn't fair.
I know that was nasty, and I apologize...but somehow I'm not sorry enough to remove it from this post. There's just something about your response that strikes me badly.
Agreed. And even I, the most anti-religious person I know, stated so in my first post on this thread - that it human interpretation of the bible supports whatever a person wants to find.
koan wrote: A man who abuses a woman does so because she is weaker and he needs to beat on someone to feel better.
This statement annoys the heck outta me, and I don't even know why. If I figure it out and can express it to you passionately but without personal anger, then I'll go further with this part.
koan wrote: That he might take statements from the bible to justify his actions does not mean the bible is to blame. The man is to blame. The bible, the Koran...any other book is not to blame for the actions of its followers.
I think blame is a bad way to go, for me anyway.
The reality of my situation, and for many others like me, is that a specific mindset is passed on from generation to generation. It is protected and insulated from growth or change by elevating it to the realm of holy, of something supposedly unarguable - the will of god. There were a few times my husband felt bad about what he was doing. But then he'd run to those who would support him, namely the church.
Do I hate religion or the bible or believers as a consequence? Of course not - that would be as silly as hating a stone if I stubbed my toe on it. I will, however, watch it closely and defend myself any time it reaches out to grab people. The same as I would carefully watch where I walk after tripping on a stone. And, if others should be coming along the same path where that tricky stone lies, I would caution them about it.
A religion which offers peace of mind, beauty, hope, and a constant striving towards personal betterment is an awesome thing. If people take it in this vein, then I am sincerely happy for them. But if they use it to excuse their behaviors which goes against the essence of what they declare to believe, then I call it like I see it. Hypocrisy.
koan wrote: People discriminate against women, blacks, Jews, handicapped...you name it, in an attempt to make themselves feel better. People want to believe they belong to a better "group" than other people, to be elite, to be somehow more special than other people in any way they can find. Religion is not the problem, perhaps human nature is. Guess what, life's not fair.I don't quite agree with your reasons as to why people hate other people, but it doesn't matter. Religion is the problem for many people because they use it to defend what can never be defended. It is the Holy Red Herring.
Life's not fair...well thank you, Koan. I didn't realize that until you pointed it out so graciously. Let's all make sure we don't try to be fair in our dealings with one another on the basis that life isn't fair.
I know that was nasty, and I apologize...but somehow I'm not sorry enough to remove it from this post. There's just something about your response that strikes me badly.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
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A Karenina
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- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Clint wrote: I've done it again. I've engaged in a discussion where there is no basis for agreement. I recognize the authority of God. You recognize the authority of no one...not even God. I'm looking for an anchor and you are looking to see which way the wind is blowing. I'm bowing out of this one.
I'm sorry you see it that way. I don't recognize a god which discriminates against anyone or anything he has created.
You say that you are looking for an anchor, but you don't seem to question what you have found. I am the exact opposite, and I question everything. When I actually find an answer, it is within myself, and I hold to that no matter what happens. It has seen me through the very worst of times and has allowed me to still find overwhelming amounts of joy and beauty in life.
I don't think that questioning is a great evil. I think that to have faith in anything, you must first ask a question.
I'm sorry you see it that way. I don't recognize a god which discriminates against anyone or anything he has created.
You say that you are looking for an anchor, but you don't seem to question what you have found. I am the exact opposite, and I question everything. When I actually find an answer, it is within myself, and I hold to that no matter what happens. It has seen me through the very worst of times and has allowed me to still find overwhelming amounts of joy and beauty in life.
I don't think that questioning is a great evil. I think that to have faith in anything, you must first ask a question.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
A Karenina,
I can understand why my reasoning might annoy you. Please understand that I have endured my share of abuse so I am not speaking as a sheltered know it all. My response takes power away from abusers by reducing the importance of what they are doing. There is no reason to beat on someone unless the beater needs to acquire power for some reason. I spent a long time trying to figure out how I got into that situation so I would never end up there again. I have been raped a number of times and -hey!- it could happen again through no fault of my own. All I can do is control my reaction to circumstances. I refuse to live in fear or give them the satisfaction of living in anger so I ignore discrimination and often manage to be surprised when it happens.
There is film called "Closet Land" with only two actors, Alan Rickman and Madeleine Stowe. He the abuser and she the abused. It is intense and not very enjoyable to watch but the message is this. His mission is to break her mind, body and spirit and he can not do it. He will keep her in this little room for the rest of her life and torture her but she will never give him the satisfaction of breaking her. She wins.
I can understand why my reasoning might annoy you. Please understand that I have endured my share of abuse so I am not speaking as a sheltered know it all. My response takes power away from abusers by reducing the importance of what they are doing. There is no reason to beat on someone unless the beater needs to acquire power for some reason. I spent a long time trying to figure out how I got into that situation so I would never end up there again. I have been raped a number of times and -hey!- it could happen again through no fault of my own. All I can do is control my reaction to circumstances. I refuse to live in fear or give them the satisfaction of living in anger so I ignore discrimination and often manage to be surprised when it happens.
There is film called "Closet Land" with only two actors, Alan Rickman and Madeleine Stowe. He the abuser and she the abused. It is intense and not very enjoyable to watch but the message is this. His mission is to break her mind, body and spirit and he can not do it. He will keep her in this little room for the rest of her life and torture her but she will never give him the satisfaction of breaking her. She wins.
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A Karenina
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- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
koan wrote: A Karenina, I can understand why my reasoning might annoy you.
I'm still at a loss, and not overly proud of myself. Thank you for your understanding; it's a gentle balm.
koan wrote: I refuse to live in fear or give them the satisfaction of living in anger so I ignore discrimination and often manage to be surprised when it happens.
I am so sorry, Koan. No one should have to endure so much pain. I know that my experiences are not secluded to a small group, but I am always hurt when I run into others who've suffered this kind of abuse.
Still, I admit to a great deal of admiration for survivors - especially those who manage to retain their heart, their goodness. Maybe that's why I get so confused when you and I disagree on the really important things.
You are much gentler than I am. You forgive and try to forget. I forgive yet fight back, herding others with me. It's an uncomfortable position for me to be in, when I look backwards - but when it's happening, I feel compelled to do it.
koan wrote: There is film called "Closet Land" with only two actors, Alan Rickman and Madeleine Stowe. He the abuser and she the abused. It is intense and not very enjoyable to watch but the message is this. His mission is to break her mind, body and spirit and he can not do it. He will keep her in this little room for the rest of her life and torture her but she will never give him the satisfaction of breaking her. She wins.I haven't seen it, but it sounds powerful. I'll definitely look for it. The power of the human spirit is probably the one thing I have faith in, above all other things. That she can and does endure, and wins (basically) herself is what life seems to expect of us all, and sometimes demands.
It is what happened to you, and to me, and to thousands like us. It's not just women, either. Men also suffer, children do as well. Each makes a choice to survive or not, to be whole or not.
I will always remember that moment of clarity - I knew it was him or me, and to my complete shock, I chose me. I have a fair amount of personal insight. I am honest enough to admit my weaknesses; they don't frighten me. But even so, I would never have guessed that I would put myself above my family.
I did, and in the end I can only conclude that it was the right thing to do. It's what I would advise to anyone else who was being hurt.
At any rate, I've brought us so far off the topic now, I'm not even sure how to get back. Thank you, koan.
I'm still at a loss, and not overly proud of myself. Thank you for your understanding; it's a gentle balm.
koan wrote: I refuse to live in fear or give them the satisfaction of living in anger so I ignore discrimination and often manage to be surprised when it happens.
I am so sorry, Koan. No one should have to endure so much pain. I know that my experiences are not secluded to a small group, but I am always hurt when I run into others who've suffered this kind of abuse.
Still, I admit to a great deal of admiration for survivors - especially those who manage to retain their heart, their goodness. Maybe that's why I get so confused when you and I disagree on the really important things.
You are much gentler than I am. You forgive and try to forget. I forgive yet fight back, herding others with me. It's an uncomfortable position for me to be in, when I look backwards - but when it's happening, I feel compelled to do it.
koan wrote: There is film called "Closet Land" with only two actors, Alan Rickman and Madeleine Stowe. He the abuser and she the abused. It is intense and not very enjoyable to watch but the message is this. His mission is to break her mind, body and spirit and he can not do it. He will keep her in this little room for the rest of her life and torture her but she will never give him the satisfaction of breaking her. She wins.I haven't seen it, but it sounds powerful. I'll definitely look for it. The power of the human spirit is probably the one thing I have faith in, above all other things. That she can and does endure, and wins (basically) herself is what life seems to expect of us all, and sometimes demands.
It is what happened to you, and to me, and to thousands like us. It's not just women, either. Men also suffer, children do as well. Each makes a choice to survive or not, to be whole or not.
I will always remember that moment of clarity - I knew it was him or me, and to my complete shock, I chose me. I have a fair amount of personal insight. I am honest enough to admit my weaknesses; they don't frighten me. But even so, I would never have guessed that I would put myself above my family.
I did, and in the end I can only conclude that it was the right thing to do. It's what I would advise to anyone else who was being hurt.
At any rate, I've brought us so far off the topic now, I'm not even sure how to get back. Thank you, koan.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
I don't really think this is off topic. The damage done by discrimination is the reason to fight it. I deal with it my way you deal with it yours. No way is better. Some who may not relate to fighting it may benefit by hearing another solution. The saddest thing is when women can't do anything to deal with it and give up on themselves, or continue to find abusive men. It is very difficult sometimes to keep helping people who won't help themselves. So many people want some saviour to arrive and solve all their problems and are not willing to do an ounce of the work themselves. The same people are often sitting back letting someone else come up with the solutions so they can blame the "saviour" if it doesn't work out for them. This is probably another reason why I may come across as a bit callous and/or flippant. I feel for all the abused women of the world but they do have to save themselves too. Nobody is alone in their fight anymore, especially in North America. Sure we can fight against religion but I don't think that would solve the problem.
Thank you for your compassion, you are very kind :-6 , but you don't need to cry for me. Everything that happens to us shapes who we are and I happen to really like myself so I wouldn't change a thing that I've been through.
Thank you for your compassion, you are very kind :-6 , but you don't need to cry for me. Everything that happens to us shapes who we are and I happen to really like myself so I wouldn't change a thing that I've been through.
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capt_buzzard
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Jack Sprat wrote: I strongly disagree with the first statement. I was a member of NOW in the 1970s and took several graduate courses (post-Masters) where I was the only male in the class (obtaining A's in all 3 of them). In my limited experience as a male, as a teacher, a husband, and an observer of the human animal, I find that even the strictest woman's activists does not come close to demonstrating as much hate as most men's activist groups. You will not find many women in the KKK, American militias, or other such "hate groups."
Stereotypically, most women have the ability to see things not only from a personal point of view, but understand their children's and husband's needs as well. Men tend to be more myopic, believing the world belongs to them, and women and children are placed there to serve their needs. Just study Daoism as it was before Lao-zi to see this taken to the extreme. Perhaps not in the United States. But in Europe, even little Ireland Women have been in activist groups down the centries.
Stereotypically, most women have the ability to see things not only from a personal point of view, but understand their children's and husband's needs as well. Men tend to be more myopic, believing the world belongs to them, and women and children are placed there to serve their needs. Just study Daoism as it was before Lao-zi to see this taken to the extreme. Perhaps not in the United States. But in Europe, even little Ireland Women have been in activist groups down the centries.
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
koan/karenina :-6
I admire both of you for what you have been through and how you dealt with it. I have seen it in neighbours etc. and it is truly sick. Thank goodness not all men or all women are like that. This is also the 15 anniversary of the Marc Lapine shooting in Montreal. I am greatly pleased that it is still remembered and brought to society's attention in the hopes that it will never happen again.
During my years in education I was adamant that both male and female were equal; that each had their own talents and gifts to give to the world. I encouraged both to aim towards what was best for them in light of their talents regardles of the job. I never tolerated in my classes or within my hearing anything that spoke of sexism.
I also tried to teach that no job was demeaning. We need the Dr. the Lawyer as well as the garbage collector or the man who digs ditches. All have an important part to play in our society.
Without trying to start a debate here as a Christian Pluralist I am contantly working as best I can to promote an egalitarian society where all are respected because in my view all are children of God who is not sexist. Anyone who reads that in their scriptures is misusing them. Unfortunately there are still those around as well as some churches and these I deplore.
Shalom
Ted :-6
I admire both of you for what you have been through and how you dealt with it. I have seen it in neighbours etc. and it is truly sick. Thank goodness not all men or all women are like that. This is also the 15 anniversary of the Marc Lapine shooting in Montreal. I am greatly pleased that it is still remembered and brought to society's attention in the hopes that it will never happen again.
During my years in education I was adamant that both male and female were equal; that each had their own talents and gifts to give to the world. I encouraged both to aim towards what was best for them in light of their talents regardles of the job. I never tolerated in my classes or within my hearing anything that spoke of sexism.
I also tried to teach that no job was demeaning. We need the Dr. the Lawyer as well as the garbage collector or the man who digs ditches. All have an important part to play in our society.
Without trying to start a debate here as a Christian Pluralist I am contantly working as best I can to promote an egalitarian society where all are respected because in my view all are children of God who is not sexist. Anyone who reads that in their scriptures is misusing them. Unfortunately there are still those around as well as some churches and these I deplore.
Shalom
Ted :-6
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capt_buzzard
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All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Ted wrote: koan/karenina :-6
I admire both of you for what you have been through and how you dealt with it. I have seen it in neighbours etc. and it is truly sick. Thank goodness not all men or all women are like that. This is also the 15 anniversary of the Marc Lapine shooting in Montreal. I am greatly pleased that it is still remembered and brought to society's attention in the hopes that it will never happen again.
During my years in education I was adamant that both male and female were equal; that each had their own talents and gifts to give to the world. I encouraged both to aim towards what was best for them in light of their talents regardles of the job. I never tolerated in my classes or within my hearing anything that spoke of sexism.
I also tried to teach that no job was demeaning. We need the Dr. the Lawyer as well as the garbage collector or the man who digs ditches. All have an important part to play in our society.
Without trying to start a debate here as a Christian Pluralist I am contantly working as best I can to promote an egalitarian society where all are respected because in my view all are children of God who is not sexist. Anyone who reads that in their scriptures is misusing them. Unfortunately there are still those around as well as some churches and these I deplore.
Shalom
Ted :-6 Thanks Ted :-6
I admire both of you for what you have been through and how you dealt with it. I have seen it in neighbours etc. and it is truly sick. Thank goodness not all men or all women are like that. This is also the 15 anniversary of the Marc Lapine shooting in Montreal. I am greatly pleased that it is still remembered and brought to society's attention in the hopes that it will never happen again.
During my years in education I was adamant that both male and female were equal; that each had their own talents and gifts to give to the world. I encouraged both to aim towards what was best for them in light of their talents regardles of the job. I never tolerated in my classes or within my hearing anything that spoke of sexism.
I also tried to teach that no job was demeaning. We need the Dr. the Lawyer as well as the garbage collector or the man who digs ditches. All have an important part to play in our society.
Without trying to start a debate here as a Christian Pluralist I am contantly working as best I can to promote an egalitarian society where all are respected because in my view all are children of God who is not sexist. Anyone who reads that in their scriptures is misusing them. Unfortunately there are still those around as well as some churches and these I deplore.
Shalom
Ted :-6 Thanks Ted :-6
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A Karenina
- Posts: 968
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Ted :-6 What a beautiful post!! I think I will keep this one, with your permission.
I was talking casually with a friend today about the latest books we are reading. He is heavily into early Church history these days. Thinking of our thread here, I asked if the early church discriminated against women. His answer, interestingly enough, was that true Christianity does not discriminate, but that areas with a heavy traditional Jewish influence "learned" to forgo equality between men and women.
That sounds rather mean to Jewish people, so I will clarify the point he was making. The most traditional Jews, what we'd call Orthodox today, were largely responsible. This completely ignores Jewish people who were not so "extreme". I just want to make sure that everyone knows I'm not pointing any fingers here.
I haven't read about it, I don't know if it's true or not...but I will say that I can never wrap my head around the things Jesus said and did, and discrimination against anyone. There are layers of commandments, and if we do not understand one layer, we will destroy the intent of the other layers.
That probably makes no sense...I was thinking about missionary work and the promise that if you bring but one soul to heaven, how much greater your glory will be (that's roughly it). Well, how do you bring a person to god? You can't drag them there by force and have it mean anything. I don't think you can scare them into obedience, because that really misses the whole point of love that is constantly stressed in the bible.
The only real way I can think of is to be the best person you can be, and to encourage the same in others. If/when a person is ready to ask you how you find such peace, or beauty, or whatever it is they lack...then you can begin to bring them into your world. But it must be by example, with no thought to your own reward - the only thought should be to give wonderful things to another human being because you love them.
I'm not sure if I am being very clear on what I'm trying to say. Ted, I really enjoy reading your views. It makes me feel more at peace with it all. It makes me feel hopeful that there are churches which "fit" me better than what I've been exposed to so far. Thank you,
AK
I was talking casually with a friend today about the latest books we are reading. He is heavily into early Church history these days. Thinking of our thread here, I asked if the early church discriminated against women. His answer, interestingly enough, was that true Christianity does not discriminate, but that areas with a heavy traditional Jewish influence "learned" to forgo equality between men and women.
That sounds rather mean to Jewish people, so I will clarify the point he was making. The most traditional Jews, what we'd call Orthodox today, were largely responsible. This completely ignores Jewish people who were not so "extreme". I just want to make sure that everyone knows I'm not pointing any fingers here.
I haven't read about it, I don't know if it's true or not...but I will say that I can never wrap my head around the things Jesus said and did, and discrimination against anyone. There are layers of commandments, and if we do not understand one layer, we will destroy the intent of the other layers.
That probably makes no sense...I was thinking about missionary work and the promise that if you bring but one soul to heaven, how much greater your glory will be (that's roughly it). Well, how do you bring a person to god? You can't drag them there by force and have it mean anything. I don't think you can scare them into obedience, because that really misses the whole point of love that is constantly stressed in the bible.
The only real way I can think of is to be the best person you can be, and to encourage the same in others. If/when a person is ready to ask you how you find such peace, or beauty, or whatever it is they lack...then you can begin to bring them into your world. But it must be by example, with no thought to your own reward - the only thought should be to give wonderful things to another human being because you love them.
I'm not sure if I am being very clear on what I'm trying to say. Ted, I really enjoy reading your views. It makes me feel more at peace with it all. It makes me feel hopeful that there are churches which "fit" me better than what I've been exposed to so far. Thank you,
AK
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Karenina :-6
Feel free to save the quote if you wish.
Actually you are making a lot of sense to me. This is the problem of the traditional Christian Paradigm. I will try to explain this in as short a space as possible. HAHA!
The Bible first of all is a book composed of myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, short story, fiction, philosophy and low and behold even some kernels of history. However, it was not intended to be read as an historical book but as a purely religious book. The Pentateuch was passed on orally for centuries until finally put to writing during the Babylonian exile.
The style of writing is most important. It is called Midrash and the Bible is Midrashic from cover to cover. Midrash makes a great deal of use of metaphor.
Now one must understand that because something is not historical does not mean that it cannot convey some very profound truths. This the Bible does. A First Nations comment that I got from Marcus Borg goes like this "I don't know if it actually happened this way but I do know that it is true."
In order to really get back to the message of the writier it is important to understand Midrash as well as the culture, history, language, fund of knowledge, conceptualization ability, belief systems and a host of other for the period in which the sacred scriptures were written.
Now in the tradition paradigm which is the usual message that the churches have been giving since both the reformation and the renaissance the Bible is considered inerrant and literally accurate. I refer to this change in about 1590 as the heresy of the reformation. Before this time most folks new the Bible for what it really was.
The emerging paradigm which I have come to hold to through about 40 years of study both formally and informally under the guidance of theologians and Bible scholars now looks at the Bible from the Historical/Metaphorical position. This also involves trying to filter out the authentic history from the metaphors etc. To my way of thinking this is the only way that the Bible and the Christian faith can make any sense in todays world with our tremendous fund of knowledge.
For me the Bible as Midrash and Metaphor and History is far more profound then it ever was when I was a follower of the traditional paradigm.
I think I will start a thread on the "Bible".
Hope this helps
Shalom
Ted :-6
Feel free to save the quote if you wish.
Actually you are making a lot of sense to me. This is the problem of the traditional Christian Paradigm. I will try to explain this in as short a space as possible. HAHA!
The Bible first of all is a book composed of myth, legend, folk tale, poetry, short story, fiction, philosophy and low and behold even some kernels of history. However, it was not intended to be read as an historical book but as a purely religious book. The Pentateuch was passed on orally for centuries until finally put to writing during the Babylonian exile.
The style of writing is most important. It is called Midrash and the Bible is Midrashic from cover to cover. Midrash makes a great deal of use of metaphor.
Now one must understand that because something is not historical does not mean that it cannot convey some very profound truths. This the Bible does. A First Nations comment that I got from Marcus Borg goes like this "I don't know if it actually happened this way but I do know that it is true."
In order to really get back to the message of the writier it is important to understand Midrash as well as the culture, history, language, fund of knowledge, conceptualization ability, belief systems and a host of other for the period in which the sacred scriptures were written.
Now in the tradition paradigm which is the usual message that the churches have been giving since both the reformation and the renaissance the Bible is considered inerrant and literally accurate. I refer to this change in about 1590 as the heresy of the reformation. Before this time most folks new the Bible for what it really was.
The emerging paradigm which I have come to hold to through about 40 years of study both formally and informally under the guidance of theologians and Bible scholars now looks at the Bible from the Historical/Metaphorical position. This also involves trying to filter out the authentic history from the metaphors etc. To my way of thinking this is the only way that the Bible and the Christian faith can make any sense in todays world with our tremendous fund of knowledge.
For me the Bible as Midrash and Metaphor and History is far more profound then it ever was when I was a follower of the traditional paradigm.
I think I will start a thread on the "Bible".
Hope this helps
Shalom
Ted :-6
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Jack Sprat wrote: [QUOTE=koan]A man who abuses a woman does so because she is weaker and he needs to beat on someone to feel better. [I disagree. This might happen, but you are passing the blame for the aggression from the attacker to the victim. As a former abuser (40 years ago), I can vouch man abuse for many reasons:
1. They are hurting and they do not know why
2. They were abused and believe that it's the proper way to express anger (this was my issue)
3. They are drunk, high, or otherwise mentally damaged
4. They see anger all around them and lash out at whomever they can harm without (they believe) getting caught.
5. A hundred other reasons. But it is rarely the woman's (or child's) fault. They may not know how to get out of the situation, may have been abused as a child and think the behavior is normal, they may be so in love or dependent and irrationally rationalize the behavior. But please, blame whoever is causing the harm, not the victim.
Thank you for your honesty, Jack.
I was in no way implying that it is the woman's fault for being "weak". It is usually a matter of physiology. If a woman happens to have fallen in love with the man then she is also more vulnerable and, again, it isn't her "fault". I think the points you make actually prove my statement. A person who was abused as a child feels the need to regain the power stolen from them and repeat the behaviour as the only way they know how. If drunk, high or mentally ill then again they are feeling out of control or powerless and lash out to correct it. The feeling of hurting is a symptom of feeling powerless. It does not require that the victim be willing or in any way to blame for the fact that they can be beat up or abused.
It is very helpful to hear the reasons for abuse from someone who used to abuse. And very brave of you to offer that information. Thank you again. From your posts I can tell that you have really done a turn around and it makes me feel wonderful to know that that can happen.
Ted.
Thank you. Your posts always make me feel good. I look forward to reading the new thread.
1. They are hurting and they do not know why
2. They were abused and believe that it's the proper way to express anger (this was my issue)
3. They are drunk, high, or otherwise mentally damaged
4. They see anger all around them and lash out at whomever they can harm without (they believe) getting caught.
5. A hundred other reasons. But it is rarely the woman's (or child's) fault. They may not know how to get out of the situation, may have been abused as a child and think the behavior is normal, they may be so in love or dependent and irrationally rationalize the behavior. But please, blame whoever is causing the harm, not the victim.
Thank you for your honesty, Jack.
I was in no way implying that it is the woman's fault for being "weak". It is usually a matter of physiology. If a woman happens to have fallen in love with the man then she is also more vulnerable and, again, it isn't her "fault". I think the points you make actually prove my statement. A person who was abused as a child feels the need to regain the power stolen from them and repeat the behaviour as the only way they know how. If drunk, high or mentally ill then again they are feeling out of control or powerless and lash out to correct it. The feeling of hurting is a symptom of feeling powerless. It does not require that the victim be willing or in any way to blame for the fact that they can be beat up or abused.
It is very helpful to hear the reasons for abuse from someone who used to abuse. And very brave of you to offer that information. Thank you again. From your posts I can tell that you have really done a turn around and it makes me feel wonderful to know that that can happen.
Ted.
Thank you. Your posts always make me feel good. I look forward to reading the new thread.
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A Karenina
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- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Jack...wow. I empathize with your childhood. I admire you so much for making huge changes.
I'm also wayyyy too nosy, and I'm wondering what inspired you to take control of you and your life. If you don't want to answer, I completely understand. I guess I'm trying to figure out what, if anything, could've helped my husband.
I'm so glad you're here.
I'm also wayyyy too nosy, and I'm wondering what inspired you to take control of you and your life. If you don't want to answer, I completely understand. I guess I'm trying to figure out what, if anything, could've helped my husband.
I'm so glad you're here.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle
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capt_buzzard
- Posts: 5557
- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
A Karenina wrote: Jack...wow. I empathize with your childhood. I admire you so much for making huge changes.
I'm also wayyyy too nosy, and I'm wondering what inspired you to take control of you and your life. If you don't want to answer, I completely understand. I guess I'm trying to figure out what, if anything, could've helped my husband.
I'm so glad you're here. :driving:
I'm also wayyyy too nosy, and I'm wondering what inspired you to take control of you and your life. If you don't want to answer, I completely understand. I guess I'm trying to figure out what, if anything, could've helped my husband.
I'm so glad you're here.
:driving:-
capt_buzzard
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- Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 12:00 pm
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
The Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, is now considering having part-time priests, married priests and looking more into the role that women could have in the church due to the fall off in vocations in recent years. Seminaries are almost empty. Convents are going up for sale and churches are being closed.
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
capt :-6
Change in the RC church comes oh so slowly. Just maybe it will speed up a little bit. Let's hope anyway.
Shalom
Ted :-6
Change in the RC church comes oh so slowly. Just maybe it will speed up a little bit. Let's hope anyway.
Shalom
Ted :-6
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A Karenina
- Posts: 968
- Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 am
All Religions Discriminates Against Women
Jack, my heart goes out to you. What an awful way to grow up. :-1
And I can't express how much I admire you for changing, for taking control over your life, for not living on excuses. You are the living example of my philosophy...that change is possible, and that it enriches the lives of everyone who knows the person.
I apologize for being sappy...It truly is an honor to know you.
And I can't express how much I admire you for changing, for taking control over your life, for not living on excuses. You are the living example of my philosophy...that change is possible, and that it enriches the lives of everyone who knows the person.
I apologize for being sappy...It truly is an honor to know you.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Aristotle
Aristotle