In this poll it is decidedly voted by FG members that religion has failed to make the world a better place.
Why?
What are some potential explanations? What are some proposed solutions?
What's wrong with religion?
What's wrong with religion?
koan wrote: In this poll it is decidedly voted by FG members that religion has failed to make the world a better place.
Why?
What are some potential explanations? What are some proposed solutions?
A combination of two trends, firstly excessive belief leading to intolerence and persecution of unbelievers / heretics / schismatics and secondly a lack of belief leading to people using the religion to further their own ends, accumulate power and suppress the masses.
Not at the same tiime by the same person of course.
Buddhism does appear to be the one religion that's immune to these trends but I believe that this is because it does not have a God whose presumed wishes are placed above the law,
It's more open to self inspection and encourages it's adhearents to think for themselves.
Why?
What are some potential explanations? What are some proposed solutions?
A combination of two trends, firstly excessive belief leading to intolerence and persecution of unbelievers / heretics / schismatics and secondly a lack of belief leading to people using the religion to further their own ends, accumulate power and suppress the masses.
Not at the same tiime by the same person of course.
Buddhism does appear to be the one religion that's immune to these trends but I believe that this is because it does not have a God whose presumed wishes are placed above the law,
It's more open to self inspection and encourages it's adhearents to think for themselves.
What's wrong with religion?
koan:-6
I have to strongly disagree that religion has not made the world better place. I can list many successes that have come out of a religious faith.
Of course there are problems. Wherever you have religious extremists you have problems whether in Christianity, Islam or any other.
I would suggest that the world would be in worse shape if it were not for religous faith.
A few examples: ACTS=African technical survey. This group has supplied fresh water systems in many town that had no potable water, free of charge.
The Anglican PWRDF fund has supplied hundreds of thousands of dollars to world wide problem, once again free of change and free of proselytization.
The churches of the world have supplied millions of dollars and manpower to help the victims of the sunami.
Churches run soup kitchens and shelters for the homeless.
The salvation army is well known for its work both in prisons and society.
I could go on and on but that should suffice.
Could we do better? Sure we could if we had more manpower.
Have the churches made mistakes? Certainly but they are trying to write the wrongs of the past.
It was Bishop Hambidge of the Anglican Church that was instrumental in the Nisga'a' land treaty and the improvement of this group.
I would suggest that instead of folks bitching and complaining about the church that they put their money and their skills where their mouth is. Far too many think it is someone else's job but they do like to criticize.
We don't go around tooting our own horn because we are too busy doing a very difficult job that others don't seem to think are important or might cost them some money.
Charity is not the answer, but a stop gap measure. The real answer lies in justice for all people around the world. So as to how can we make it better, oppose injustice wherever it is found whether locally or in some other country. Support those like the churches that do oppose injustice.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I have to strongly disagree that religion has not made the world better place. I can list many successes that have come out of a religious faith.
Of course there are problems. Wherever you have religious extremists you have problems whether in Christianity, Islam or any other.
I would suggest that the world would be in worse shape if it were not for religous faith.
A few examples: ACTS=African technical survey. This group has supplied fresh water systems in many town that had no potable water, free of charge.
The Anglican PWRDF fund has supplied hundreds of thousands of dollars to world wide problem, once again free of change and free of proselytization.
The churches of the world have supplied millions of dollars and manpower to help the victims of the sunami.
Churches run soup kitchens and shelters for the homeless.
The salvation army is well known for its work both in prisons and society.
I could go on and on but that should suffice.
Could we do better? Sure we could if we had more manpower.
Have the churches made mistakes? Certainly but they are trying to write the wrongs of the past.
It was Bishop Hambidge of the Anglican Church that was instrumental in the Nisga'a' land treaty and the improvement of this group.
I would suggest that instead of folks bitching and complaining about the church that they put their money and their skills where their mouth is. Far too many think it is someone else's job but they do like to criticize.
We don't go around tooting our own horn because we are too busy doing a very difficult job that others don't seem to think are important or might cost them some money.
Charity is not the answer, but a stop gap measure. The real answer lies in justice for all people around the world. So as to how can we make it better, oppose injustice wherever it is found whether locally or in some other country. Support those like the churches that do oppose injustice.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
What's wrong with religion?
I think, like all things, there is a lot wrong with religion and a lot right about religion. Intolerance and oppression are not monopolies of religion. I think religion has become the popular scapegoat in light of the actions of Islamofascists. But many muslims are peaceful as is almost everyone else practicing religion. I'm not a big defender of most religions on theological grounds but I see it in general as no better or worse than anything else. It is abused by some and used for good by most. Religion is a device man uses in his search for God and being man-made is subject to corruption. Some people use their computer knowledge to create worms and destroy the hard-drives of others, some use the internet to lure children into abusive situations, but most use their computer software responsibly and lawfully. We don't condemn the entire internet because some use to criminally. Some environmentalist and animal rights activists engage in terrorist behavior but we don't condemn the environmental or animal rights movements as a whole. Why? Because most of us use the internet regularly and we are sympathetic to different extents to environment and animal rights concerns. But a lot of us have no connection to religion so there is no personal connection. It's always easier to point out the negative rather the good, esp if it relates to something that is not important to you. I believe most religious practice is futile in the eternal scheme of things but I defend the right of others to practice as they believe and I think most religions and religious people are well-intentioned and try to do good works for neighbors and the community.
What's wrong with religion?
Ted,
The original question was phrased in terms of the long haul - say the last 100,000 years or so.
No-one would despute that a lot of good is being done in the name of the church but do you think that it outweighs the inter-church warfare, the supression of knowledge, the destruction of other cultures etc that occurred in the past?
I say "in the name of the church" advisedly. Do you also think that there would be no good works performed if it were not for the church?
Religion has a lot of gold stars to its name - but a lot of black crosses as well.
The original question was phrased in terms of the long haul - say the last 100,000 years or so.
No-one would despute that a lot of good is being done in the name of the church but do you think that it outweighs the inter-church warfare, the supression of knowledge, the destruction of other cultures etc that occurred in the past?
I say "in the name of the church" advisedly. Do you also think that there would be no good works performed if it were not for the church?
Religion has a lot of gold stars to its name - but a lot of black crosses as well.
What's wrong with religion?
Adam Zapple wrote: I think, like all things, there is a lot wrong with religion and a lot right about religion. Intolerance and oppression are not monopolies of religion. I think religion has become the popular scapegoat in light of the actions of Islamofascists.
Please tell me, why phrase this solely in terms of Muslem extremeists?
Have we not enough examples in the Romans persecuting the Christians, the Spanish Inquisition, the hounding of the Founding Fathers and the Hugonaughts, the Irish question, the Seikh problem, etc that we cannot spread it about a bit?
I would sincerely like to know why this single minded persuit of one element of society.
Please tell me, why phrase this solely in terms of Muslem extremeists?
Have we not enough examples in the Romans persecuting the Christians, the Spanish Inquisition, the hounding of the Founding Fathers and the Hugonaughts, the Irish question, the Seikh problem, etc that we cannot spread it about a bit?
I would sincerely like to know why this single minded persuit of one element of society.
What's wrong with religion?
My belief is that more damage has been done in the name of religion than good.
Where some point out the good done by religious people, I submit that those people would be doing the same things without religion...through organized charities or individual effort.
Religion has been more divisive than unifying. Entire cultures have been destroyed by people determined to "bring the light," even though they were just FINE prior to the arrival of the missionaries. Countless wars have been fought in the name of religion.
Religion has been damaging to women all over the globe. Those ancient religions which venerated "the goddess" were systematically eliminated by patriarchial faiths. While some improvements have been made in Western cultures, millions of women lead second-class lives, disenfranchised, mutilated and uneducated, largely due to patriarchial religious systems.
The concept of Secular Humanism has been under (often vicious) attack by organized religions since its inception, yet, in my opinion, it offers the best hope for humanity.
Where some point out the good done by religious people, I submit that those people would be doing the same things without religion...through organized charities or individual effort.
Religion has been more divisive than unifying. Entire cultures have been destroyed by people determined to "bring the light," even though they were just FINE prior to the arrival of the missionaries. Countless wars have been fought in the name of religion.
Religion has been damaging to women all over the globe. Those ancient religions which venerated "the goddess" were systematically eliminated by patriarchial faiths. While some improvements have been made in Western cultures, millions of women lead second-class lives, disenfranchised, mutilated and uneducated, largely due to patriarchial religious systems.
The concept of Secular Humanism has been under (often vicious) attack by organized religions since its inception, yet, in my opinion, it offers the best hope for humanity.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
What's wrong with religion?
Bryn Mawr wrote: Please tell me, why phrase this solely in terms of Muslem extremeists?
Have we not enough examples in the Romans persecuting the Christians, the Spanish Inquisition, the hounding of the Founding Fathers and the Hugonaughts, the Irish question, the Seikh problem, etc that we cannot spread it about a bit?
I would sincerely like to know why this single minded persuit of one element of society.
I second that.
The Spanish Inquisition resulted in the ethnic cleansing of first Muslims then Jews in the name of Christianity. The modern campaign against Islam has seemingly erased history and resulted in the holy war that this was not supposed to be.
A question I asked in the poll thread, about possible misinformation influencing a number of people against religion, is to examine likelihood that many of these wars are about territory and resources and the religious aspects are secondary.
I believe religion is a good thing in general. Religion satisfies a deep spiritual feeling in the majority of people alive today. To me, the place it goes wrong is when religious leaders claim to have a monopoly on God's attention and the only key to a happy afterlife. If religions would all accept that there are many paths to the same happy hunting ground a lot of the religious problems would disappear.
Have we not enough examples in the Romans persecuting the Christians, the Spanish Inquisition, the hounding of the Founding Fathers and the Hugonaughts, the Irish question, the Seikh problem, etc that we cannot spread it about a bit?
I would sincerely like to know why this single minded persuit of one element of society.
I second that.
The Spanish Inquisition resulted in the ethnic cleansing of first Muslims then Jews in the name of Christianity. The modern campaign against Islam has seemingly erased history and resulted in the holy war that this was not supposed to be.
A question I asked in the poll thread, about possible misinformation influencing a number of people against religion, is to examine likelihood that many of these wars are about territory and resources and the religious aspects are secondary.
I believe religion is a good thing in general. Religion satisfies a deep spiritual feeling in the majority of people alive today. To me, the place it goes wrong is when religious leaders claim to have a monopoly on God's attention and the only key to a happy afterlife. If religions would all accept that there are many paths to the same happy hunting ground a lot of the religious problems would disappear.
What's wrong with religion?
koan wrote: To me, the place it goes wrong is when religious leaders claim to have a monopoly on God's attention and the only key to a happy afterlife. If religions would all accept that there are many paths to the same happy hunting ground a lot of the religious problems would disappear.
Very much so. When one leader, or the church hierarchy, can say "this is God's will" and that edict must be obeyed regardless of the law or and form of common sense or decency then it is open to abuse and it *will* be abused.
We have countless examples of this happening in most of the major religions of the world.
Very much so. When one leader, or the church hierarchy, can say "this is God's will" and that edict must be obeyed regardless of the law or and form of common sense or decency then it is open to abuse and it *will* be abused.
We have countless examples of this happening in most of the major religions of the world.
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Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
What's wrong with religion?
Bryn Mawr wrote: Please tell me, why phrase this solely in terms of Muslem extremeists?
Have we not enough examples in the Romans persecuting the Christians, the Spanish Inquisition, the hounding of the Founding Fathers and the Hugonaughts, the Irish question, the Seikh problem, etc that we cannot spread it about a bit?
I would sincerely like to know why this single minded persuit of one element of society.
We're talking about perceptions. Perceptions are forged out of experiences and information. Most people have at best a rudimentary knowledge of ancient history. We may not be able to explain 1000 yr old events but we know exactly where we were and what we felt on 9/11 and 7/7.
If you were to ask the same question about athletes, you would probably get a lot of negative feedback based on stories of drug-enhanced performances, hold-outs for more money, physical violence, cheating, the me, me, me attitude of millionaire crybabies. These perceptions are enforced by the stories we see on the news. Rarely do we see stories on the athlete who gives back to his community, who performs selflessly for his teammates. Good works don't sell in the media, scandal does. I doubt anyone's perception of athletes is based on 1000-yr old history. It's what we know now that shapes our thoughts.
There's another thread about a small uptown NY Baptist church that fired a Sunday School teacher. Pretty benign stuff but it's national news. Had they paid her utilities and bought her perscription meds she couldn't afford, we would have never heard about it.
If you don't think Islamic terrorism reinforces negative views of religion then you are in denial. Some may quote the Inquisition as proof of religions negative impact but the basis of negative or positive reactions of religion is far more recent and personal.
Have we not enough examples in the Romans persecuting the Christians, the Spanish Inquisition, the hounding of the Founding Fathers and the Hugonaughts, the Irish question, the Seikh problem, etc that we cannot spread it about a bit?
I would sincerely like to know why this single minded persuit of one element of society.
We're talking about perceptions. Perceptions are forged out of experiences and information. Most people have at best a rudimentary knowledge of ancient history. We may not be able to explain 1000 yr old events but we know exactly where we were and what we felt on 9/11 and 7/7.
If you were to ask the same question about athletes, you would probably get a lot of negative feedback based on stories of drug-enhanced performances, hold-outs for more money, physical violence, cheating, the me, me, me attitude of millionaire crybabies. These perceptions are enforced by the stories we see on the news. Rarely do we see stories on the athlete who gives back to his community, who performs selflessly for his teammates. Good works don't sell in the media, scandal does. I doubt anyone's perception of athletes is based on 1000-yr old history. It's what we know now that shapes our thoughts.
There's another thread about a small uptown NY Baptist church that fired a Sunday School teacher. Pretty benign stuff but it's national news. Had they paid her utilities and bought her perscription meds she couldn't afford, we would have never heard about it.
If you don't think Islamic terrorism reinforces negative views of religion then you are in denial. Some may quote the Inquisition as proof of religions negative impact but the basis of negative or positive reactions of religion is far more recent and personal.
What's wrong with religion?
Bryn Mawr:-6
It is true that many wars and other horrendous things have been done in the name of God by many faiths.
Do I think the good outweighs the negatives? I think that even during the crusades and the inquisition and such there was still good being done. One of the difficulties we face today is trying to judge the past from our present time. Very difficult if not impossible.
Let us take a look at one issue, the inquisition. Hindsight says that it was downright evil. The problem is what did the people of the day think. How was it viewed. Were there cultural or belief system issues that influenced the church. Was in done in true honesty by some very devout people or was it done in spite or as an act of civil warfare.
I think historians are in agreement that the church brought the dark ages to a close and had a great positive influence in the renaissance in spite of its errors.
Very difficult, if not impossible, to judge the past by today's standards.
Shalom
Ted:-6
It is true that many wars and other horrendous things have been done in the name of God by many faiths.
Do I think the good outweighs the negatives? I think that even during the crusades and the inquisition and such there was still good being done. One of the difficulties we face today is trying to judge the past from our present time. Very difficult if not impossible.
Let us take a look at one issue, the inquisition. Hindsight says that it was downright evil. The problem is what did the people of the day think. How was it viewed. Were there cultural or belief system issues that influenced the church. Was in done in true honesty by some very devout people or was it done in spite or as an act of civil warfare.
I think historians are in agreement that the church brought the dark ages to a close and had a great positive influence in the renaissance in spite of its errors.
Very difficult, if not impossible, to judge the past by today's standards.
Shalom
Ted:-6
What's wrong with religion?
Adam Zapple wrote:
If you don't think Islamic terrorism reinforces negative views of religion then you are in denial. Some may quote the Inquisition as proof of religions negative impact but the basis of negative or positive reactions of religion is far more recent and personal.
Oh I do, believe me I do.
What I am querying is this relentless use of the same image.
When discussing the role of religion throughout history, as this thread was intended to do, the Inquisition is a much more aposite example given the extent of the damage it caused and the timespan it encompased.
If you don't think Islamic terrorism reinforces negative views of religion then you are in denial. Some may quote the Inquisition as proof of religions negative impact but the basis of negative or positive reactions of religion is far more recent and personal.
Oh I do, believe me I do.
What I am querying is this relentless use of the same image.
When discussing the role of religion throughout history, as this thread was intended to do, the Inquisition is a much more aposite example given the extent of the damage it caused and the timespan it encompased.
What's wrong with religion?
Why do we presume that religion is wrong or that the problem lies with religion?
As I have studied various religions, I generally find their underlying principles are sound and conducive to a wholesome life and society.
I am certain that the problem lies with the way some individuals have twisted the meanings into something else to suit their purposes or through over-zealous groups with extreme ideals that have not understood the essence of the principles.
Ultimately, out of desperation and a forlorn hopelessness, many people have given up on religion because it has become nothing more than a political battleground and an excuse for warfare.
Where is the forgiveness?
As I have studied various religions, I generally find their underlying principles are sound and conducive to a wholesome life and society.
I am certain that the problem lies with the way some individuals have twisted the meanings into something else to suit their purposes or through over-zealous groups with extreme ideals that have not understood the essence of the principles.
Ultimately, out of desperation and a forlorn hopelessness, many people have given up on religion because it has become nothing more than a political battleground and an excuse for warfare.
Where is the forgiveness?
What's wrong with religion?
TED "The problem is what did the people of the day think. How was it viewed. Were there cultural or belief system issues that influenced the church. Was in done in true honesty by some very devout people "
I completely disagree! It doesn't matter what the people thought! The end results were disaster for vicitims of the Inquisition or the Yanomamo, the Maya, many of the Polynesians and countless others!
Motives aren't the issue here. The issue is outcomes! I know a woman who was educated by nuns to believe she'd go to hell if she were ever unnecessarily naked. You can imagine the ruination THAT brought to her sexual life! Did the nuns think they were doing the right thing? Of course...but ask my friend about it. Ask her former husband. Ask her shrink.
OPEN MIND Religion is a human system. Created by humans. Therefore, it's subject to human error. Where's the forgiveness? What forgiveness? Are we to blindly "forgive" all that's gone on in the past and yet continue on in systems which clearly have little value? THAT would be unforgiveable.
And if human beings weren't so afraid of the unknown, we probably could.
I completely disagree! It doesn't matter what the people thought! The end results were disaster for vicitims of the Inquisition or the Yanomamo, the Maya, many of the Polynesians and countless others!
Motives aren't the issue here. The issue is outcomes! I know a woman who was educated by nuns to believe she'd go to hell if she were ever unnecessarily naked. You can imagine the ruination THAT brought to her sexual life! Did the nuns think they were doing the right thing? Of course...but ask my friend about it. Ask her former husband. Ask her shrink.
OPEN MIND Religion is a human system. Created by humans. Therefore, it's subject to human error. Where's the forgiveness? What forgiveness? Are we to blindly "forgive" all that's gone on in the past and yet continue on in systems which clearly have little value? THAT would be unforgiveable.
And if human beings weren't so afraid of the unknown, we probably could.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
What's wrong with religion?
Bryn Mawr wrote: Oh I do, believe me I do.
What I am querying is this relentless use of the same image.
When discussing the role of religion throughout history, as this thread was intended to do, the Inquisition is a much more aposite example given the extent of the damage it caused and the timespan it encompased.
Because it is current and it is driving the negative perception of all religions.
What I am querying is this relentless use of the same image.
When discussing the role of religion throughout history, as this thread was intended to do, the Inquisition is a much more aposite example given the extent of the damage it caused and the timespan it encompased.
Because it is current and it is driving the negative perception of all religions.
What's wrong with religion?
Oh, Adam, I wouldn't blame it all on Islam. No, nononono. Everybody's got their share of this one.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
What's wrong with religion?
OpenMind wrote: Why do we presume that religion is wrong or that the problem lies with religion?
As I have studied various religions, I generally find their underlying principles are sound and conducive to a wholesome life and society.
I am certain that the problem lies with the way some individuals have twisted the meanings into something else to suit their purposes or through over-zealous groups with extreme ideals that have not understood the essence of the principles.
Ultimately, out of desperation and a forlorn hopelessness, many people have given up on religion because it has become nothing more than a political battleground and an excuse for warfare.
Where is the forgiveness?
The problem does not lie with the religion as stated, more with the abuse of that religion when it is twisted, either by the over-zealous or by the cynical. I fear that either way, they've understood the principles all too well and they're using them to their own ends.
At the end of the day, however, it has to be accounted on religion's balance sheet because, without the infrastructure, the abuse could not take place.
As I have studied various religions, I generally find their underlying principles are sound and conducive to a wholesome life and society.
I am certain that the problem lies with the way some individuals have twisted the meanings into something else to suit their purposes or through over-zealous groups with extreme ideals that have not understood the essence of the principles.
Ultimately, out of desperation and a forlorn hopelessness, many people have given up on religion because it has become nothing more than a political battleground and an excuse for warfare.
Where is the forgiveness?
The problem does not lie with the religion as stated, more with the abuse of that religion when it is twisted, either by the over-zealous or by the cynical. I fear that either way, they've understood the principles all too well and they're using them to their own ends.
At the end of the day, however, it has to be accounted on religion's balance sheet because, without the infrastructure, the abuse could not take place.
What's wrong with religion?
Lulu:-6
Ah! but you are judging from a totally different culture, time and viewpoint. Hindsight is sometimes 20/20. Issues have changed, understandings and knowledge has changed. One cannot understand the past or particular issues until one understands the culture, the political and social milieu etc. Your judgement may be correct from the 21st cent point of view but only from that point of view.
Even at that when one is reading history one is reading the author's interpretation and then reinterpreting it through the readers mind. Unless you understand all of the above and have the knowledge any judgement you make is purely yours and has no validity outside of yourself.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Ah! but you are judging from a totally different culture, time and viewpoint. Hindsight is sometimes 20/20. Issues have changed, understandings and knowledge has changed. One cannot understand the past or particular issues until one understands the culture, the political and social milieu etc. Your judgement may be correct from the 21st cent point of view but only from that point of view.
Even at that when one is reading history one is reading the author's interpretation and then reinterpreting it through the readers mind. Unless you understand all of the above and have the knowledge any judgement you make is purely yours and has no validity outside of yourself.
Shalom
Ted:-6
What's wrong with religion?
Nothing wrong with religion,
just something wrong with the people who use religion as an excuse for their actions.
just something wrong with the people who use religion as an excuse for their actions.
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Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
What's wrong with religion?
Lulu2 wrote: Oh, Adam, I wouldn't blame it all on Islam. No, nononono. Everybody's got their share of this one.
I'm not blaming it all, or even mostly, on Islam.
I'm not blaming it all, or even mostly, on Islam.
What's wrong with religion?
K. Snyder:-6
I absolutely agree. There is something wrong with those people. It is not the spirituality behind all religious faiths.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I absolutely agree. There is something wrong with those people. It is not the spirituality behind all religious faiths.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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RedGlitter
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- Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:51 am
What's wrong with religion?
religion= manmade dogma created for the purpose of potentially brainwashing its subscribers and often questionable in its accuracy or benefit.
spirituality= from one's heart (can still be good or bad depending on what tenets are followed) and belongs to every individual on its own merit.
spirituality= from one's heart (can still be good or bad depending on what tenets are followed) and belongs to every individual on its own merit.
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Adam Zapple
- Posts: 977
- Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:13 am
What's wrong with religion?
Diuretic wrote:
Religions are nothing more than a collection of superstitions dressed up to look rational. But they are the very antithesis of rationality. They require uncritical adherence to pre-determined doctrines, scepticism and doubt are not favoured, dogma rules, challenge the accepted thinking and pretty soon you're out on your ear.
Religion is a stultifying influence in any society where it has a hold. It stops progress. There's no wonder or curiousity allowed because the answers are known and can be found in the "revealed" texts or nostrums. No need to pose questions and find answers, it's all there, ready to be absorbed.
Tsk, Tsk. You have much to learn, young grasshoppa!
But religion is on the skids in terms of human development. In time it will be over, its fiction can't continue, it will wither away as its supertitious hold on humanity fades.
People were saying that long before Nietzsche.
Religions are nothing more than a collection of superstitions dressed up to look rational. But they are the very antithesis of rationality. They require uncritical adherence to pre-determined doctrines, scepticism and doubt are not favoured, dogma rules, challenge the accepted thinking and pretty soon you're out on your ear.
Religion is a stultifying influence in any society where it has a hold. It stops progress. There's no wonder or curiousity allowed because the answers are known and can be found in the "revealed" texts or nostrums. No need to pose questions and find answers, it's all there, ready to be absorbed.
Tsk, Tsk. You have much to learn, young grasshoppa!
But religion is on the skids in terms of human development. In time it will be over, its fiction can't continue, it will wither away as its supertitious hold on humanity fades.
People were saying that long before Nietzsche.
What's wrong with religion?
If you look at religious organizations in terms of their hierarchies, the leadership is much like politics and the ability to become corrupt is unchecked. Their similarity is a result of the one emerging from the other.
Anthropology shows that early societies were led by their shamen or religious figurehead. The societies did well when they were organized and worked together. The success of the group was measured by surplus, which at the time was created to sacrifice to the gods. Mountains of food was burned in offering. In return the gods would bless them with another successful year (so they believed). As time passed the corruption began and the surplus was retained instead of sacrificed and the leader found they could gain local power by distributing goods unequally. The leader was the most powerful of all and competition led to the strongest of the group becoming the head and the spiritual leader took the passenger seat.
Very broad summary of Escape From Evil, Ernest Becker, chapters 1,2&3
Anthropology shows that early societies were led by their shamen or religious figurehead. The societies did well when they were organized and worked together. The success of the group was measured by surplus, which at the time was created to sacrifice to the gods. Mountains of food was burned in offering. In return the gods would bless them with another successful year (so they believed). As time passed the corruption began and the surplus was retained instead of sacrificed and the leader found they could gain local power by distributing goods unequally. The leader was the most powerful of all and competition led to the strongest of the group becoming the head and the spiritual leader took the passenger seat.
Very broad summary of Escape From Evil, Ernest Becker, chapters 1,2&3
What's wrong with religion?
Diuretic wrote: "Religion isn't the problem, people who use religion are the problem".
You have misunderstood....
I simply said people who use religion as an excuse for their irrational behavior are the problem.
Religion has nothing to do with anything, only the people weak at heart who cannot indistinctly feel what is right or wrong given any circumstance....
Civilisation has grown from savagery, what more proof do you need?
Diuretic wrote:
Religion is a stultifying influence in any society where it has a hold. It stops progress. There's no wonder or curiousity allowed because the answers are known and can be found in the "revealed" texts or nostrums. No need to pose questions and find answers, it's all there, ready to be absorbed.
But religion is on the skids in terms of human development. In time it will be over, its fiction can't continue, it will wither away as its supertitious hold on humanity fades. There are no new religions, only old ones hanging on, dragging us all backwards as a species.
Religion gives us nothing that rationality can't, well nothing positive anyway, religon at once seeks to scare us and then present sweet answers to comfort us in our fears.
Prove it.
Prove that these are the motives of "evil men".
You have misunderstood....
I simply said people who use religion as an excuse for their irrational behavior are the problem.
Religion has nothing to do with anything, only the people weak at heart who cannot indistinctly feel what is right or wrong given any circumstance....
Civilisation has grown from savagery, what more proof do you need?
Diuretic wrote:
Religion is a stultifying influence in any society where it has a hold. It stops progress. There's no wonder or curiousity allowed because the answers are known and can be found in the "revealed" texts or nostrums. No need to pose questions and find answers, it's all there, ready to be absorbed.
But religion is on the skids in terms of human development. In time it will be over, its fiction can't continue, it will wither away as its supertitious hold on humanity fades. There are no new religions, only old ones hanging on, dragging us all backwards as a species.
Religion gives us nothing that rationality can't, well nothing positive anyway, religon at once seeks to scare us and then present sweet answers to comfort us in our fears.
Prove it.
Prove that these are the motives of "evil men".
What's wrong with religion?
K.Snyder wrote: You have misunderstood....
I simply said people who use religion as an excuse for their irrational behavior are the problem.
Religion has nothing to do with anything, only the people weak at heart who cannot indistinctly feel what is right or wrong given any circumstance....
Civilisation has grown from savagery, what more proof do you need?
The point being made was that, without the religion, the abuse could not exist.
I simply said people who use religion as an excuse for their irrational behavior are the problem.
Religion has nothing to do with anything, only the people weak at heart who cannot indistinctly feel what is right or wrong given any circumstance....
Civilisation has grown from savagery, what more proof do you need?
The point being made was that, without the religion, the abuse could not exist.
What's wrong with religion?
RedGlitter/Diuretic:-6
None of those assertions have been my experience. They simply paint a picture that is totally untrue and not part of the experiential reality.
To say that religion does nothing that could not be done by rationality is for one thing to make a religion out of rationality.
I do not see many non religious organizations running overseas missions like ACTS which delivers fresh water to the villages of Africal by supplying free of charge the wells and the equipment. I do not see many non religious institutions running soup kitchens or shelters from the homeless. It was an Anglican Bishop that was instrumental in the absurdly long first nations treaty discussions with the Nisga'a' finally coming to a successful conclusion.
Many churches among others were able to raise millions for the sumani victims. I could go on but the point is the comments are purely untrue.
It was the church that began education both elementary and university. Historians are agreed that it was the church that brought Europe out of the dark ages.
The church is there when folks feel they need it for comfort or celebration in the birth, marriage or death of folks.
As far as academic freedom and the encouragement to question goes; The Anglican, United, Presbyterian churches are right in line.
Indeed "grasshopper you have much to learn".
As far as the church hoarding money goes that is simply untrue. Here in Canada churches are required by law to distribute 80% of their funds, beyond the necessities of personel, and operating expenses, in charitable works or they lose their charitable status.
I could go on but that should suffice. Of course the churches have no positive value. ROFL
Shalom
Ted:-6
None of those assertions have been my experience. They simply paint a picture that is totally untrue and not part of the experiential reality.
To say that religion does nothing that could not be done by rationality is for one thing to make a religion out of rationality.
I do not see many non religious organizations running overseas missions like ACTS which delivers fresh water to the villages of Africal by supplying free of charge the wells and the equipment. I do not see many non religious institutions running soup kitchens or shelters from the homeless. It was an Anglican Bishop that was instrumental in the absurdly long first nations treaty discussions with the Nisga'a' finally coming to a successful conclusion.
Many churches among others were able to raise millions for the sumani victims. I could go on but the point is the comments are purely untrue.
It was the church that began education both elementary and university. Historians are agreed that it was the church that brought Europe out of the dark ages.
The church is there when folks feel they need it for comfort or celebration in the birth, marriage or death of folks.
As far as academic freedom and the encouragement to question goes; The Anglican, United, Presbyterian churches are right in line.
Indeed "grasshopper you have much to learn".
As far as the church hoarding money goes that is simply untrue. Here in Canada churches are required by law to distribute 80% of their funds, beyond the necessities of personel, and operating expenses, in charitable works or they lose their charitable status.
I could go on but that should suffice. Of course the churches have no positive value. ROFL
Shalom
Ted:-6
What's wrong with religion?
Bryn Mawr wrote: The point being made was that, without the religion, the abuse could not exist.
You mean to tell me, that without belief in a "supreme god" there would be no evil in the world?
I couldnt disagree more...
This theory would ultimately depend on the fact that atheists dont commit crimes....
Religion in no way instigates irrationality, only irrational people.
You mean to tell me, that without belief in a "supreme god" there would be no evil in the world?
I couldnt disagree more...
This theory would ultimately depend on the fact that atheists dont commit crimes....
Religion in no way instigates irrationality, only irrational people.
What's wrong with religion?
Diuretic:-6
With all due respect you are out of touch with the religious faiths of today.
When one thinks that rationality has all the answers one has in fact made a form of deity out of rationality, a religion.
Anyway that is your opinion.
Shalom
Ted:-6
With all due respect you are out of touch with the religious faiths of today.
When one thinks that rationality has all the answers one has in fact made a form of deity out of rationality, a religion.
Anyway that is your opinion.
Shalom
Ted:-6
What's wrong with religion?
Diuretic:-6
OK. So you say.
Shalom
Ted:-6
OK. So you say.
Shalom
Ted:-6
What's wrong with religion?
K.Snyder wrote: You mean to tell me, that without belief in a "supreme god" there would be no evil in the world?
I couldnt disagree more...
This theory would ultimately depend on the fact that atheists dont commit crimes....
Religion in no way instigates irrationality, only irrational people.
Now you're just being disingenuous and playing word games.
The abuse being spoken of was quite specifically the abuse of religious power and by definition, that cannot happen without the infrastructure of religion being there in the first place.
I couldnt disagree more...
This theory would ultimately depend on the fact that atheists dont commit crimes....
Religion in no way instigates irrationality, only irrational people.
Now you're just being disingenuous and playing word games.
The abuse being spoken of was quite specifically the abuse of religious power and by definition, that cannot happen without the infrastructure of religion being there in the first place.
What's wrong with religion?
The purpose of my last post: http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showp ... stcount=29
was to direct attention towards the similarity of structure in religion and politics. The abuses are the same and the benefits both deserve merit.
That humans fear death is fairly well established but they also stand in awe of what they don't understand. I think Ted's point about turning rationality into a religion is reinforced by the classifying of atheism as a religion. Whatever method one uses to explain "reality" (which really does belong inside quotation marks) is the religion of choice. Science has replaced religion in a lot of ways but it didn't destroy religion it just became an alternative method of explaining.
Joseph Campbell was hardly a religious fanatic but he devoted his entire career to showing the important role that myth plays in our lives. It speaks to the subconscious. Religion focuses on ethical codes. Society will always have ethical codes.
What it comes down to is that humans are social animals that prefer to live in groups. The groups always form some sort of hierarchy and that hierarchy reflects the mythology of the group.
Is there someone who claims to have the definitive description of "reality"? Empirical evidence that every human being is experiencing the same world?
was to direct attention towards the similarity of structure in religion and politics. The abuses are the same and the benefits both deserve merit.
That humans fear death is fairly well established but they also stand in awe of what they don't understand. I think Ted's point about turning rationality into a religion is reinforced by the classifying of atheism as a religion. Whatever method one uses to explain "reality" (which really does belong inside quotation marks) is the religion of choice. Science has replaced religion in a lot of ways but it didn't destroy religion it just became an alternative method of explaining.
Joseph Campbell was hardly a religious fanatic but he devoted his entire career to showing the important role that myth plays in our lives. It speaks to the subconscious. Religion focuses on ethical codes. Society will always have ethical codes.
What it comes down to is that humans are social animals that prefer to live in groups. The groups always form some sort of hierarchy and that hierarchy reflects the mythology of the group.
Is there someone who claims to have the definitive description of "reality"? Empirical evidence that every human being is experiencing the same world?
What's wrong with religion?
(Koan, I'm a BIG fan of J. Campbell. His writings literally changed my life. He's one of those people I'd've loved to have met.)
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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charles_r51
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:24 am
What's wrong with religion?
koan
politics is the relationships developed by people to deal with other people who may not have the same purpose. religion is the developement of a means of controlling people just for the sake of control. whenever politicsa and religion come together, chaos reigns supreme. throughout history, more wars have been fought for religious control of the people, than have ever been thought of when differences of opinion exist. until religion and politics are seperated, the on;y thing that will ever be decided is how many dead were the result of the wars that have been fought so one religion can be in charge of the minds of ignorant people on the bottom of the social ladder. those at the top can avoid the conflict because they are the cause of it.:-4 :-4 :-4 :-4
politics is the relationships developed by people to deal with other people who may not have the same purpose. religion is the developement of a means of controlling people just for the sake of control. whenever politicsa and religion come together, chaos reigns supreme. throughout history, more wars have been fought for religious control of the people, than have ever been thought of when differences of opinion exist. until religion and politics are seperated, the on;y thing that will ever be decided is how many dead were the result of the wars that have been fought so one religion can be in charge of the minds of ignorant people on the bottom of the social ladder. those at the top can avoid the conflict because they are the cause of it.:-4 :-4 :-4 :-4
What's wrong with religion?
I go with Koan. I have already given my opinion. Once was enough for me.
What's wrong with religion?
charles_r51 wrote: koan
politics is the relationships developed by people to deal with other people who may not have the same purpose. religion is the developement of a means of controlling people just for the sake of control. whenever politicsa and religion come together, chaos reigns supreme. throughout history, more wars have been fought for religious control of the people, than have ever been thought of when differences of opinion exist. until religion and politics are seperated, the on;y thing that will ever be decided is how many dead were the result of the wars that have been fought so one religion can be in charge of the minds of ignorant people on the bottom of the social ladder. those at the top can avoid the conflict because they are the cause of it.:-4 :-4 :-4 :-4
what do you mean by "same purpose". I propose that the goal of people is to live happily and in health. Politically we segregate into countries, religiously we segregate into belief systems. It is all segregation into groups we either identify with or are born into. It is the segregation that causes conflict not the specifics of any one group. Politically, wars are fought over which governing system should be used, communism, fascism, democracy, dictatorship... How is this different than warring over which God is better?
Do you honestly suggest that political leaders aren't seeking power over people? If you were to say one did more than the other it should be politics before religion. How many dead are resulting from the fight to instill democracy into nondemocratic countries? That is what the Western world is claiming to be warring over. They specifically stated that this is not a religious war. Perhaps they are lying? It wouldn't be the first time. Y'all need to get together and figure out which lies you want to believe.
politics is the relationships developed by people to deal with other people who may not have the same purpose. religion is the developement of a means of controlling people just for the sake of control. whenever politicsa and religion come together, chaos reigns supreme. throughout history, more wars have been fought for religious control of the people, than have ever been thought of when differences of opinion exist. until religion and politics are seperated, the on;y thing that will ever be decided is how many dead were the result of the wars that have been fought so one religion can be in charge of the minds of ignorant people on the bottom of the social ladder. those at the top can avoid the conflict because they are the cause of it.:-4 :-4 :-4 :-4
what do you mean by "same purpose". I propose that the goal of people is to live happily and in health. Politically we segregate into countries, religiously we segregate into belief systems. It is all segregation into groups we either identify with or are born into. It is the segregation that causes conflict not the specifics of any one group. Politically, wars are fought over which governing system should be used, communism, fascism, democracy, dictatorship... How is this different than warring over which God is better?
Do you honestly suggest that political leaders aren't seeking power over people? If you were to say one did more than the other it should be politics before religion. How many dead are resulting from the fight to instill democracy into nondemocratic countries? That is what the Western world is claiming to be warring over. They specifically stated that this is not a religious war. Perhaps they are lying? It wouldn't be the first time. Y'all need to get together and figure out which lies you want to believe.
What's wrong with religion?
There is nothing wrong with the concept of religion. It can give meaning and purpose to a persons life. The problems come when people choose to use relgions for unhelpful purposes. I think the fact that the scriptures of most of the worlds major relgions were written so long ago to explain things that were not understood at the time, but have since been explained render literal translations of each irrelavent today. Many people insist of believing that there particular relgion, or sect or branch (they can't even agree among themsleves) is the only correct one and that their scripture is the innerrant word of God. Then they try and foist this view on others sometimes violently and get upset when others resist. Some branches of the religions have adapted to modern times and take a more metaphoric approach to their scriptures, practice tolerance and acceptance and generally get along with others who disagree. In my observation these are in the minority. Government and relgion clearly need to be separate and the US got that right.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.
What's wrong with religion?
zinkyusa wrote: There is nothing wrong with the concept of religion. It can give meaning and purpose to a persons life. The problems come when people choose to use relgions for unhelpful purposes. I think the fact that the scriptures of most of the worlds major relgions were written so long ago to explain things that were not understood at the time, but have since been explained render literal translations of each irrelavent today. Many people insist of believing that there particular relgion, or sect or branch (they can't even agree among themsleves) is the only correct one and that their scripture is the innerrant word of God. Then they try and foist this view on others sometimes violently and get upset when others resist. Some branches of the religions have adapted to modern times and take a more metaphoric approach to their scriptures, practice tolerance and acceptance and generally get along with others who disagree. In my observation these are in the minority. Government and relgion clearly need to be separate and the US got that right.
I'm not picking on you. Really.
There is nothing wrong with the concept of politics either. It is the practice of both that are resulting in similar problems.
Science has never attempted to answer the question of whether or not God exists. It can never be proved or disproved scientifically.
We agree that the exclusivity claims are the problems. It is also a problem in politics that one system claims to be superior to another.
The peacefully people in the world are not a minority. They are quieter.
What has the US singularily gotten right? I'm unsure of what you mean. Their president has claimed that God wanted him to be president. (you do know that, right?)
I'm not picking on you. Really.
There is nothing wrong with the concept of politics either. It is the practice of both that are resulting in similar problems.
Science has never attempted to answer the question of whether or not God exists. It can never be proved or disproved scientifically.
We agree that the exclusivity claims are the problems. It is also a problem in politics that one system claims to be superior to another.
The peacefully people in the world are not a minority. They are quieter.
What has the US singularily gotten right? I'm unsure of what you mean. Their president has claimed that God wanted him to be president. (you do know that, right?)
What's wrong with religion?
here's a link to what I mean about Bush: Bush says God chose him to lead his nation
Behind Bush were two banners. 'King of Kings', proclaimed one. 'Lord of Lords', said the other. The symbolism of how fervent Christianity has become deeply entwined with the most powerful man on the planet could not have been stronger.
Few US Presidents have been as openly religious as Bush. Now a new book has lifted the lid on how deep those Christian convictions run. It will stir up controversy at a time when the administration is keen to portray its 'war on terror' as non-religious.
Behind Bush were two banners. 'King of Kings', proclaimed one. 'Lord of Lords', said the other. The symbolism of how fervent Christianity has become deeply entwined with the most powerful man on the planet could not have been stronger.
Few US Presidents have been as openly religious as Bush. Now a new book has lifted the lid on how deep those Christian convictions run. It will stir up controversy at a time when the administration is keen to portray its 'war on terror' as non-religious.
What's wrong with religion?
koan wrote: I'm not picking on you. Really.
There is nothing wrong with the concept of politics either. It is the practice of both that are resulting in similar problems.
Science has never attempted to answer the question of whether or not God exists. It can never be proved or disproved scientifically.
We agree that the exclusivity claims are the problems. It is also a problem in politics that one system claims to be superior to another.
The peacefully people in the world are not a minority. They are quieter.
What has the US singularily gotten right? I'm unsure of what you mean. Their president has claimed that God wanted him to be president. (you do know that, right?)
Koan, I don't feel picked on :wah: My comment about the US was in reference to maintaining the separation between church and state. I didn't mean to imply that US singuarly got that right. This is a long thread and I amy have missed something. I went back to the beginning and thought the topic was to comment on what is wrong with religion. I think I may have missed something.
As for science proving/disproving the existence of God I agree it can't do it. I was referring to other things in the scriptures that can't be taken literally becuase they can be proven scientifically to be incorrect.
There is nothing wrong with the concept of politics either. It is the practice of both that are resulting in similar problems.
Science has never attempted to answer the question of whether or not God exists. It can never be proved or disproved scientifically.
We agree that the exclusivity claims are the problems. It is also a problem in politics that one system claims to be superior to another.
The peacefully people in the world are not a minority. They are quieter.
What has the US singularily gotten right? I'm unsure of what you mean. Their president has claimed that God wanted him to be president. (you do know that, right?)
Koan, I don't feel picked on :wah: My comment about the US was in reference to maintaining the separation between church and state. I didn't mean to imply that US singuarly got that right. This is a long thread and I amy have missed something. I went back to the beginning and thought the topic was to comment on what is wrong with religion. I think I may have missed something.
As for science proving/disproving the existence of God I agree it can't do it. I was referring to other things in the scriptures that can't be taken literally becuase they can be proven scientifically to be incorrect.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.