Moderation

chrisb84uk · Post by **chrisb84uk** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:20 am

I like that idea Floppy, sounds good to me. I think having a rotation around moderating as you say would stop some people getting a little to big for their boots. I guess people that are truly interested in the job, would have to volunteer, (privately if need be,) and then a rota drawn of some kind with those people. I think that if this did happen then a lot of thought is needed, as the purpose after all of doing this would be to make FG a better and more user-friendly place, and not do the opposite.

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:24 am

I like the idea of rotating, anonymous moderators.

Post by **spot** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:26 am

Moderation means having the ability to:

tidy the board by moving posts from one area to anothercensor posts by changing or deleting their contentinterfere with the ability of a user to either read or write in some or all areas of the siteAt the moment that's being done by admin, which means there will be periods when complaints are resolved only slowly. I don't mind that much, it gets done in time. "Though the mills of God grind slowly, Yet they grind exceeding small; Though with patience he stands waiting, With exactness grinds he all".

I'd rather wait for that Olympian descent than have people expect trouble to be fixed in realtime. Trouble is very rare. Moderation is much more divisive. I don't see the need for it. Banning people, as we've seen, can and does lead to long-term partisan resentment. Censoring posts has the same effect between fewer people in the short term. What works is peer pressure. If we collectively treat what might otherwise be Moderated as a topic for discussion then the abuse brings us together. Everything posted has a potentially positive side to it, you just need to uncover that aspect and work it into the stream.

AussiePam · Post by **AussiePam** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:36 am

There are already controls. And the peer pressure thing is great. If people offend the Forum Garden family, memories are long. They don't get away scott free. And out of some of these past incidents, considerable strength has grown.

I have seen other forums where the moment any potentially controversial topic is touched on, some officious person whizzes in and aborts discussion by decree, or by swamping the spark (good or bad) with meaningless schmaltz. Ugh.

People who really need moderated internet forums have loads of choice. Elsewhere.

Post by **spot** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:51 am

The two measures which admin mostly uses to intervene are neat, given that he uses them so rarely.

A thread can be put out of sight into what was the tar pit. That's a first slap though it rarely shuts up the chief protagonists. It does make the entire place cleaner for passers-by and (I hope) it makes the material invisible to search engines.

A thread can be closed, preventing further posts from adding to it. That really does have an effect in damping down a fight. If the fight spills over then another and another closed thread might result until people get the message, but I've not seen matters ever get that far.

The reason these two measures are so effective is that admin is so non-party, so uninvolved in any argument here. No Moderator is ever going to carry that much weight. If you dilute these subtle and rarely-employed tools then you just have to escalate the powers employed.

Post by **spot** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:06 am

ArnoldLayne wrote: I like to see Spot and Anastrophe stand toe to toe.I'd hate to consider the eventual state of anyone who tried to come between us.

I do think he and I might try to analyse the core element of our long-standing disagreements, there's not many aspects to it and it would be worth reaching bedrock and exposing the fault-line itself. Meanwhile, let nobody doubt that I like the guy, or that my time at the Garden would have had far less effect on my life had he not been here.

But I digress. We were discussing the merits of status quo.

Marie5656 · Post by **Marie5656** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:27 am

I like the idea. Here is a thought from the guinea pig website I used to be a mod on. All the mods had "powers" to do things such as edit/delete posts, move them, banish them to thier version of our Tar Pit, ban members etc. Some powers were reserved for the admins.

BUT...they also had a "staff" position which the mods could access if they needed or wanted to do something more anonymously...like sending PMs to members who were being trollish, or needed a "talking to". And it could be done without anyone (even other mods) knowing who was actually performing these actions. That "member could be named "FG STAFF or something. With password changed regularly. Flop..PM me if you want more info.

I think the moderators need to be moderated also, to assure there are no power trips, or misinformation given to the general members.

Marie5656 · Post by **Marie5656** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:33 am

If I may add, there need to be rules and guidelines as what the moderator can and cannot do. For example, in the other forum, we had a no advertiseng of competing sites policy. A mod could stay on top of that.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:52 am

spot wrote: I'd hate to consider the eventual state of anyone who tried to come between us [Spot & Anastophe].This looks great out of context. :rolleyes:

I agree with Spot, Arnie & Pam. Real, damaging disputes are rare as hen's teeth here. When they happen, we take care of it pretty effectively, I think. I shudder to think of giving the wrong person mod powers. After all, I've been banned from another forum for what I posted here! Too much power for the petty.

Marie5656 · Post by **Marie5656** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:03 am

Ok, another revision of my thoughts. While I am in favor of moderation of forums, the more I read in this thread, the more I may have to agree that maybe the Garden would not be an appropriate place for it.

Or maybe just a limited power person to help out with housekeeping and stuff. And BTW..I am in no way implying I am interested in any such position, seriously. Been there, done that...had enough.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:14 am

Most of the time the Garden is well tended and floral. Occasionally a weed pops up but tends not to last long. There the odd known briar patch but we can choose whether or not to go there.

The odd times that the wilderness encroaches the head gardener can apply the weedkiller swiftly enough.

Maybe we could occasionally do with a dose of salts to settle an upset but permanent moderation would dampen the soil and stop the garden growing.

IMHO obviously.

Post by **spot** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:25 am

Bryn Mawr wrote: Most of the time the Garden is well tended and floral. Occasionally a weed pops up but tends not to last long.Flubadub?

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 5:37 am

AussiePam wrote: There are already controls. And the peer pressure thing is great. If people offend the Forum Garden family, memories are long. They don't get away scott free. And out of some of these past incidents, considerable strength has grown.

I have seen other forums where the moment any potentially controversial topic is touched on, some officious person whizzes in and aborts discussion by decree, or by swamping the spark (good or bad) with meaningless schmaltz. Ugh.

People who really need moderated internet forums have loads of choice. Elsewhere.

Amen, sister!

Spot also expressed it well. Things work fine the way they are. I've been here for a year and things have gone great. I've been at forums like the one Pam describes and the heavy-handed moderating runs off more people than any discussion would. I say let sleeping dogs lie - If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:23 am

flopstock wrote: I would prefer a rotating moderation system, perhaps randomly selected paid subscribers.

I like this suggestion. Its something I suggested during the Jives brouhaha, and got shot down for it.

The peer pressure idea is also good but its weakness lies in "clique" pressure.

There are "clique-y" groups of friends here and it's sometimes the case where one member takes a stand and the rest of the clique follow!

Overall I think things work well as they are at the moment, but with the suggestion that we have a second admin to replace Anastrophe and help out Tombstone, thus enabling him to have a little time away from FG.

Such a person would have to be extremely fair and unbiased and the only one who comes to mind is Floppy herself.

Angelica · Post by **Angelica** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:26 am

I am a moderator at R-R and things can get out of hand occasionally, hahaha, okay that even made me laugh, but we never delete or ban anyone for offensive behavior. We do not have many rules over there, but we abide by the few that are set by the Admin. The only rule we have is "No Spam". We never delete or ban anyone for offensive behavior, but, we will and do ban and/or delete any spam and spammers.

I personally would not like to be a member of a forum that is moderated by someone whose idea of what it is "they" deem fit, is the only thing that I can read. But then again, I'm new here and my opinion really doesn't matter.

Marie5656 · Post by **Marie5656** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:36 am

Angelica wrote: I personally would not like to be a member of a forum that is moderated by someone whose idea of what it is "they" deem fit, is the only thing that I can read. But then again, I'm new here and my opinion really doesn't matter.

I hope you do not let the fact that you are new make you hesitate in expressing your opinions!! No one here bites, and new opinions are great for the place.

Angelica · Post by **Angelica** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:07 am

ArnoldLayne wrote: So if someone makes an offensive smell are we to take it we all sit and suffer it or do we get the spray out and eliminate it.
As I stated before, if you have ground rules regarding that, and someone breaks it, then it is a moderating offense and should be dealt with. But to allow someone to delete or alter posts because "they" feel it is offensive, well then, you effectively become a forum of sheeple.

I'm glad that works for R - R. That is why you are there. I'm not sure "offensive" is something that we can live with. That is why we are hereAs I always say, to each their own. If I dislike something or find it personally repugnant, I can always ignore it, not throw fuel on the fire, and eventually, it will go away. That is what makes the internet great.

YZGI · Post by **YZGI** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:11 am

I know I'm a bit new here but my favorite threads are usually the argumentive ones. Whats more entertaining than a public fight. I can only read so many of the nicey nicey posts. I do however understand that they can get out of hand. Not that it ever bothered me, I know better than to get involved in them cause first off I would rather be flippant than have to do lots of research and I definitly would need to learn how to type a heck of alot better.

sunny104 · Post by **sunny104** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:34 am

I voted no, I think the Garden works great the way it is.....:-6

Angelica · Post by **Angelica** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:36 am

ArnoldLayne wrote: There is a broad church of sensibilities here. My boundaries can be pushed much, much further than some others and in that we must respect.

Its the offensive personal attacks that musn't go unnoticed. They must be dealt with. I find that unacceptable.
We agree more than you think. One thing is a "heated debate" and another thing is a personal attack. I know how to isolate the two, but sadly there are many who take anything that is not in agreement with their way of thinking as a personal attack.

So what do you do in this instance? Ban the person for being "overly zealous" in their defense of their ideal, or try to make them see the error in the way they put forth their ideas? I usually go with the second suggestion, but then again, that is me.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:56 am

I think if nothing else one day person, and one evening person who could slow the nasty thread down hopefull without locking it. But if locking is the only way to stop the nasty stuff so be it. That's the way it is on every other forum I have known..

Post by **spot** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:13 am

onsekiz wrote: I see some people can't control themselves and start insulting people. So they need to be moderated.We have an open door, onsekiz. If you throw out people you don't like they can just walk back in again. We could close the door and ask for references before admission - operate a friends-only club - but that's not the same as what we have now. Nightclubs hire bouncers to police the behaviour of the guests. We work differently here, we discuss why people do things and what we think of their actions.

If we're to have moderation powers then hand it to everyone with a forumgarden account. Make it very public who uses the option. Then if you see someone's post deleted or someone's username banned, and you don't approve, you can ban that moderator yourself. The Garden would work like the Wild West at that point, and we'd all learn something about playing with fire.

CARLA · Post by **CARLA** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:23 am

Good idea Arnold and you have point about the LOCKING of a thread we have so many members from all over the world it wouldn't be fair to them.

[QUOTE]I think the present idea of confining an offending thread with a password, at least hides it from the eyes of passing potential members. At least it can be accessed by those wishing to make a point. Locking off a thread altogether prevents those members restricted by time zones from reading it[/QUOTE]

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:35 am

I don't get this at all, I obviously miss a lot.

I like the free-wheeling nature if the garden and the open discussion. passionate disagreement doesn't need to get personal, passionate debate isn't the same as arguing aggressively, It's no fun if everybody agrees-at least for me, but in any case as an adult I tend not to get offended if somebody tries to be offensive. I just ignore them. If I give offence it is unintentional though some do seem to take it personally when your opinion differs from them-or seem to but usually a bit later they realise yoiu weren't being personal just because you disagree, a lot is lost when you can't see the person and read the body language. How can it be personal when you don't know the other person.

I hadn't realised so many had been subject to personal attacks and left as a consequence. Way I look at it if someone wants to be personal and cause trouble the best tactic is to completely ignore them. (although like flopstock sometimes i can't resist winding them up) It is no fun trying to bully someone if they don't respond. Mental midgets don't want discussion, this forum for them it's a form of mental masterbation and eventually they will wander off trying to find someone impressed by their miniscule intellect and two days later nobody remembers who they were.

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:11 am

Hi Everyone,

Good discussion going on. I do not want to dampen the conversation, but let me put a few cents in.

1. A quick factual point: I've been involved with communities since 1986 - at which time I ran a large BBS. It later evolved into another BBS which became a large ISP. The only reason I'm mentioning this is to give you a little background about myself. I'm not a "johnny come lately" and have been through every conceivable ring of fire when it comes to anything Internet related.

2. FG is for reasonable adults. Moderation *has to take place on the personal level. There is no way in the world I can control what people say.

3. FG has a "soft" moderation system in place: "Report a post." It is very effective.

4. In regards to the slow nature of my actions here: True and False!

a. False: The community rarely sees in incredibly large volume of spam, trolls, and hackers. I am usually able to nip them in the bud pretty quickly. Sometimes not, but as you know, FG is not full of porn, spam, or get rich quick schemes.

b. True: Some arguments need to be hashed out a bit. When they devolve into nastiness, they are gently placed into the "Compost Pile". Think I'm doing anyone a favor? You should see the angry letters I get when I deem something nasty: "Censorship!" I remind them that *they wouldn't allow a person to walk into their home and smear it with feces, why should I?

c. Community moderation is a train-wreck waiting to happen. Been there, done that. Why? It's very simple: See point 5.

5. Moderation works great until YOU are the one being moderated. Don't even bother to argue with me on this. I have more data to prove this point than I can store on a 1 gig hard drive.

6. Utopias do not exist. It's a fact of life. You make friends and gain respect by your actions here. A moderator cannot control that. An admin cannot control that. Since it is a community, those of like minds will stick together. That's what it is all about. You cannot expect the entire community to love you all the time. You are what you post.

7. ForumGarden is a place to discuss news, events, and your life. Please continue!

Tigerlily · Post by **Tigerlily** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:30 am

I've been visiting here quite a few months and bar one exception, haven't noticed anyone being offensive to anyone - but then I'm fairly unoffendable myself. Despite there being such a variety of people and ages of people - which makes a difference - and very lively discussions about all sorts, self-moderation, if that's what it is, seems to work.

But perhaps I've just been lucky not to notice. Unpleasantness has obviously been going on somewhere,

Angelica · Post by **Angelica** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:41 am

Tombstone wrote: Hi Everyone,

Good discussion going on. I do not want to dampen the conversation, but let me put a few cents in... Too long to repost

Good post....

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:22 am

I have reservations regarding moderators .... I have seen them at work elsewhere and it does 'stifle' things some what.

911 · Post by **911** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:39 am

I don't get to come to the garden as much as I would like to thus I miss a lot of what is going on. Such as this:

http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/showt ... hp?t=18902

And there are times I will be reading a thread and suddenly someone goes ballistic on someone else out of the blue. I can only assume that admin or a moderator has deleted someones post, which is truely confusing.

I don't mind heated discussions and I don't mind arguments. It really helps me to learn the people here a little better and what subjects to avoid so I'm not considered a troll or a war monger or trouble. But, when it digresses to name calling ( the B word, C word, P word, etc) then it becomes too childish even for me. But I have seen enough around here to know that everyone tends to come together and pull weeds without a moderator or at least not visible moderation.

This is a huge place and if a member does not like what someone says, there are other places to go to get away from them.

I was in a forum where admin nearly did not exist but it was kept clean and the troublemakers were dealt with and everyone got along and those that didn't ignored the others. If there was someone I didn't like, I didn't post in their thead--simple as that.

I have come to think of everyone here as adults and very little has made the hair on the back of my neck come alive. I have enjoyed myself and I hope you have enjoyed what little contributions I have made here.

Bez · Post by **Bez** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:45 am

Well I've now read the entire thread and I have to agree with Arnie, ACC, Pam and others that have made some excellent points.

All in all, FG is a peaceful, informative, caring, fun place.

It may be a tad unpleasant on the occasions when 'things kick off' but in all honesty, this doesn't happen that often.

I deplore the personal attacks that take place from time to time and to me, these are the most unpleasant occasions and we have undoubtedly lost good friends when this has happened.

I personally wouldn't leave if this happenend to me...I have too many friends here....I might just retreat into my cave for a few days and 'lick my wounds' !

Rapunzel · Post by **Rapunzel** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:48 am

ArnoldLayne wrote: I think the present idea of confining an offending thread with a password, at least hides it from the eyes of passing potential members. At least it can be accessed by those wishing to make a point. Locking off a thread altogether prevents those members restricted by time zones from reading it

I agree with what you're all generally saying, particularly Arnold and Tombstone.

Shall we take it as read then that when it all turns to BS we'll just dump it on the compost pile for anyone to read and add to as they wish, but where we don't all have to smell it!?

And any passing muck spreaders will find they've lost their pile of doo and will buzz off to spread their poison somewhere else.

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:48 am

ArnoldLayne wrote: So if someone makes an offensive smell are we to take it we all sit and suffer it or do we get the spray out and eliminate it.

I'm glad that works for R - R. That is why you are there. I'm not sure "offensive" is something that we can live with. That is why we are here

Arnold, I agree with you in theory, but it rarely works well in actual practice. "Offensive" is totally subjective. FG has had one recent bad experience in the whole year I've been here. I think adding moderators would only make things worse. But if FG does implement moderators, it really should be on a rotational basis or we could really see a turn for the worse.

ruula · Post by **ruula** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:51 am

Plop Flop has replaced Lady Schnapps?

minks · Post by **minks** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:00 pm

No we had them way back and they failed.

Unless they will be responsible for cleaning the washrooms I see no reason fer them

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:14 pm

You know what's funny? On the other boards I frequent, where there is heavy moderation, it's hardly ever used!

For some reason, just knowing that you could get in trouble seems to keep everyone civil. Weird, huh? I guess it's kind of like having an authority figure in the room as opposed to no authority figure around.

When there's one there, people just don't take chances and are more careful about each other's feelings.

And boy! I can tell you it's really a big relief.

Post by **spot** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:17 pm

Jives wrote: When there's one there, people just don't take chances and are more careful about each other's feelings.

And boy! I can tell you it's really a big relief.It speaks volumes that you should find it so. I'd find such an environment entirely oppressive.

Jives · Post by **Jives** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:18 pm

Actually, what I find oppressive is when people devolve into name-calling, insults, and derision. That's no fun for anyone.