Yeah!!! Nothing like progress!!

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:30 pm

As a military wife in a family with more then one member that has been and will be again in a warzone, I find this very disturbing.

I am not going to get into the whole political arguement with you, Scrat. I just have to wonder why your commentary of such things must include words like "Amerifascists"? Do you really hold the American members of the forum in such contempt that you feel it necessary to insult at every opprotunity?

I promise you, most of the American members here are much like you. We struggle with the same daily battles that you do - job security, rising costs, raising families, etc.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:57 pm

geez Scrat aren't you American too ?? :rolleyes:

double helix · Post by **double helix** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:45 pm

I only live here and not too much longer at that

And enjoy all the bounty of this country while your here no doubt. So, tell me about these few people who are getting rich off the fighting in Afganistan, Iraq and all the other Muslim hot spots in the world. Because as I see it, America is footing the bill for just about three quarters of the worlds needs. Lending money, people, supplies, technology, teachers, medicin and whatever esle the pooer, needier of the world need. At American taxpayers expense too.

So I guess its a good thing you get to leave since you don't like the Amerifacists, as you call them. Enjoy where ever you go, as it won't be as bountiful nor as free as this great country.

Oh, another thing you can console yourself with. We'll probably be sending aide to whatever country you land in. Help yourself.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:05 pm

Scrat wrote: Because of the attitudes in America today, it is worthy of nothing but contempt. Funny. I say the same about you.

Adam Zapple · Post by **Adam Zapple** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:29 pm

Sheryl wrote: geez Scrat aren't you American too ?? :rolleyes:

Yes. but a self-loathing one. :p

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:23 pm

LilacDragon wrote: As a military wife in a family with more then one member that has been and will be again in a warzone, I find this very disturbing.

I'd agree totally - if there was evidence against them then why were they not tried years ago?

On the other hand, if there's no evidence that will stand up in court then they should have been released well before now.

As an aside, and a total irrelevance, how much would it cost in terms of Pakistan's GDP to hold several thousand prisoners for several years?

double helix · Post by **double helix** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:45 pm

Scrat wrote: Just so long as you are paying for it!!!!:yh_rotfl :yh_rotfl

Really though, Europe doesn't get much aid from America and as far as I know Spain for example gets none. If they do it is a pittance and most likely to do with business. Valencia is beautiful.

Get a goddamn clue pal. Where in the hell is 90 BILLION going into Iraq for the Iraqi people? That money is going into the pockets of the Iraqi warlords, the bloodsucking Kuwaitis and the stockholders of Halliburton and god knows where else. How much is the trench they are going to dig around Baghdad going to cost? We've poured billions into Afghanistan and people still die of the plague there. Do a little research, I ain't going to hold your hand.

Holding the hands of other countries is what America does. When you have a disater, drought, war, or aides, who ya gonna call? America, thats right.

What do you think were doing in the Middle East? You think we just want to protect the oil so we can keep all for ourselves, us rich, fat Americans?

Get a clue. You have weeds growing in the garden. What do you do.

Well you can ignor them and they will take over your garden and spread all over the land.

You can chop the tops off and the weeds will just come back with tougher stems and more brances.

Or you can dig out the root and distroy that weed forever.

Now, substitute weed for terroisim, and look at the position America has picked. We occupy countries on either side of Iran, have working arrangements with Syria and Pakistan etc and so forth.

Do you think that we, like Spain, Italy, Japan, Syria, India, Isreal, Thiland, etc, are going to sit back and let terroist attack us on our own soil over and over again?

Our current leaders have stated over and over that we will root out the terroist one by one.

So, go forth from our country and enjoy your new home where ever you go. Knowing you could be blown to bits, kidnapped, shot or plummet out of the sky with the next terrorist assault, when ever thoes pissed off Muslum radicals decide your present countries leaders have said or done something they don't like. I'm fairly confident they will not be bombing the USA again.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:55 pm

double helix wrote: Holding the hands of other countries is what America does. When you have a disater, drought, war, or aides, who ya gonna call? America, thats right.

What do you think were doing in the Middle East? You think we just want to protect the oil so we can keep all for ourselves, us rich, fat Americans?

YES - that is exactly how American foreign policy appears to the outside world.

double helix wrote: Get a clue. You have weeds growing in the garden. What do you do.

Well you can ignor them and they will take over your garden and spread all over the land.

You can chop the tops off and the weeds will just come back with tougher stems and more brances.

Or you can dig out the root and distroy that weed forever.

Now, substitute weed for terroisim, and look at the position America has picked. We occupy countries on either side of Iran, have working arraingements with Syria and Pakistan etc and so forth.

Do you think that we, like Spain, Italy, Japan, Syria, India, Isreal, Tiland, etc, are going to sit back and let terroist attack us on our own soil over and over again?

Our current leaders have stated over and over that we will root out the terroist one by one.

So, go forth from our country and enjoy your new home wherever you go. Knowing you could be blown to bits, kidnapped, shot or drop out of the sky with the next terrorist assault. I'm fairly confident it won't be in the USA.

Or you can go through the garden wafting at the weeds and end up spreading their seeds throughout the garden without damaging the roots of the plants already there - result, 10 times more weeds far more entrenched than they were before.

Get this, America are NOT the World Police and they have NO right to invade another Soverign state to satisfy their own foreign policy.

And before you bleat on about the "War on Terror", show links between Iraq and the attack on New York, or Al Qaeda.

LilacDragon · Post by **LilacDragon** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:07 am

Get this, America are NOT the World Police and they have NO right to invade another Soverign state to satisfy their own foreign policy.

Yada, yada, yada. Every time there is a problem around the world the first thing you hear is "Where is the United States?"

When Iraq invaded Kuwait - the U.S. stepped in and kicked them back out.

When the Berlin Wall fell - the U.S. stepped in with aid.

When Communism fell in Russia - the U.S. stepped in with aid.

When mudslides and hurricanes kill hundreds in South America - the U.S. stepps in with aid.

When Isreal attacked Lebanon - the world wanted the U.S. to step in and call for a Cease Fire.

Hey, as an American, I would be perfectly happy if the rest of the world would just take care of their own crap and leave us alone. Maybe then we could concentrate on the issues that we have here in our own country. And maybe, while the rest of the world is leaving us alone - if those countries that we have lent money to could pay us back, we could afford to do things like rebuild New Orleans.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:47 am

LilacDragon wrote: Yada, yada, yada. Every time there is a problem around the world the first thing you hear is "Where is the United States?"

When Iraq invaded Kuwait - the U.S. stepped in and kicked them back out.

When the Berlin Wall fell - the U.S. stepped in with aid.

When Communism fell in Russia - the U.S. stepped in with aid.

When mudslides and hurricanes kill hundreds in South America - the U.S. stepps in with aid.

When Isreal attacked Lebanon - the world wanted the U.S. to step in and call for a Cease Fire.

Hey, as an American, I would be perfectly happy if the rest of the world would just take care of their own crap and leave us alone. Maybe then we could concentrate on the issues that we have here in our own country. And maybe, while the rest of the world is leaving us alone - if those countries that we have lent money to could pay us back, we could afford to do things like rebuild New Orleans.

For Kuwait there was a UN mandate and it was an international force, for the Lebanon the world was asking you to withdraw your unconditional support for Israel so that the conditions for a cease fire could be achieved as for the aid, that's nothing to do with invading another country.

Maybe if the US stopped interfering then the rest of the world could take care of their own crap as you so elegantly put it.

If the US didn't pour so much of its GDP into foreign excursions it could afford to sort out its internal problems - as it is you're selling off the family silver at a phenominal rate to pay for your position (I forget how many billion a month it is - I'll look it up this PM).

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:54 am

Bryn Mawr wrote: For Kuwait there was a UN mandate and it was an international force, for the Lebanon the world was asking you to withdraw your unconditional support for Israel so that the conditions for a cease fire could be achieved as for the aid, that's nothing to do with invading another country.

Maybe if the US stopped interfering then the rest of the world could take care of their own crap as you so elegantly put it.

If the US didn't pour so much of its GDP into foreign excursions it could afford to sort out its internal problems - as it is you're selling off the family silver at a phenominal rate to pay for your position (I forget how many billion a month it is - I'll look it up this PM).What I wouldn't give for politicians to agree. But I wonder how fast European and Asian civilisation would fall if America stopped shoring it up.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:57 am

Accountable wrote: What I wouldn't give for politicians to agree. But I wonder how fast European and Asian civilisation would fall if America stopped shoring it up.

Try it and see - I think you'd be surprised.

Without the CIA in the mix destabalising "unfriendly" governments we might even settle down quite happily.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:01 am

Bryn Mawr wrote: Try it and see - I think you'd be surprised.

Without the CIA in the mix destabalising "unfriendly" governments we might even settle down quite happily.Too bad it'll likely never leave the arena of the hypothetical.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:20 am

Bryn Mawr wrote: Try it and see - I think you'd be surprised.

Without the CIA in the mix destabalising "unfriendly" governments we might even settle down quite happily.

Ah yes like you did in 1933..

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:34 am

zinkyusa wrote: Ah yes like you did in 1933..

Touché

One man's mistake, thankfully rectified in time.

double helix · Post by **double helix** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:45 pm

Or you can go through the garden wafting at the weeds and end up spreading their seeds throughout the garden without damaging the roots of the plants already there - result, 10 times more weeds far more entrenched than they were before. Because people like you egsist in Congress. People who struggle to make this administration stumble, fail even, by muddying up the water. Yes, I agree things are BAD in the Middle East. War is hell. Death is hell.

At first every one was unified and voted yeah, go get the mo fo's. Now elections are coming up again. For crying out loud. People are manuvering for positions. While Bush struggles to continue with the rest of his plan.

Get this, America are NOT the World Police and they have NO right to invade another Soverign state to satisfy their own foreign policy. We were lobbied by the Iraqie exiles who brought information to the table on terroists activities in their country. Pull your head out of your ass. When terrorists ATTACK US ON OUR OWN SOIL we have the right to go after them no matter what country they are in. If we can do it through diplomacy, so be it. Do you see Sadam, in the midst of denying wmd's and keeping the UN inspectors out of his country allowing diplomacy to occur between the US and HIM.

And before you bleat on about the "War on Terror", show links between Iraq and the attack on New York, or Al Qaeda. I think I answered this in the above reply BUT, just to REFRESH your memory of what I wrote in my original post. WE DID NOT GO INTO THE MIDDLE EAST TO HORDE THE OIL. WE WENT IN AFTER THE TERROIST THAT ATTACKED OUR COUNTRY, WHO ORIGINATE IN IRAN AND AFFILIATED COUNTIRES If we wanted to horde the oil for ourselves why do we continue to PURCHASE the Iraq oil at its current market price? Idiot:-5 Some people are so blind, so gullable as to believe what is reported in the news.

double helix · Post by **double helix** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:54 pm

Accountable wrote: What I wouldn't give for politicians to agree. But I wonder how fast European and Asian civilisation would fall if America stopped shoring it up.
Well, take a look at nations in Africa. WE don't have the money or men to shore up there countries and carry on in the Middle East. How many other big nations do you see lending a hand? None, and the UN just pulled out of some refugee camp full of Hutu's. That was the last thing standing between them and the rebels that chased them from thier country and killed off most of the population of Hutu's to begin with. Do you see any big headlines in the news of Itialy, or Spain, or Germany racing in to help?

gmc · Post by **gmc** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:09 pm

posted by double helix

We were lobbied by the Iraqie exiles who brought information to the table on terroists activities in their country. Pull your head out of your ass. When terrorists ATTACK US ON OUR OWN SOIL we have the right to go after them no matter what country they are in. If we can do it through diplomacy, so be it. Do you see Sadam, in the midst of denying wmd's and keeping the UN inspectors out of his country allowing diplomacy to occur between the US and HIM.

Good job we don't take the same attitude otherwise we would have invaded the US to get at the IRA terrorists that the US govt refused to hand over for trial. Don't suppose bombing Dublin would have helped matters either.

Anyway you seem to have rather missed the point that the Terrorists were Saudi Arabian. They had no connectiuon to Iraq whatsoever.

Just to emphasise the point

http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf

I suggest you read the bit about connections of al queda to saddam.

to paraphrase.

"Iraq has no past, current or anticipated contact with usama bin laden. Bin Ladenwas in fact a long time enemy of Iraq."

Even GW as good as admits that he lied.

So why did you not go after the saudi backers of Al Queda? osama was their creature. This kind of fundamentaist theology comes from saudi arabia it's got everything to do with Saudi Politics and absiolutely nothing to do with bringng down democracy.

Why not go after Osama in Afghanistan? Iraq was a distraction that allowed Osama to get away and has now done more than anything to gain the fundamentalists more and more support.

You were conned pure and simple by your own administration. What is annoying is we were daft enough to allow ourselves to be sucked in against all common sense.

Have a look at the 911 commission report as well while you are at it.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html

How anyone can still believe Iraq was connected to 911 beggars belief.

How anyone can be so frightened of a bunch of terrorists that they can be conned in to going to war with THE WRONG COUNTRY is going to keep historians busy for years to come.

Terrorists can not bring down democratic governments. What will is people being fooled in to believing that they can trust politicians.

posted by accountable

What I wouldn't give for politicians to agree. But I wonder how fast European and Asian civilisation would fall if America stopped shoring it up.

You need to get out more, come over to europe and take notes on how things should be done. Let's face it, without european technological innovation you would have no cars, phones, computers, TV, radar, electricity, indoor toilets, jets, ballistic missiles, pizza, ice cream, wine, whisky, beer, rifles, machine guns, nuclear missiles, textile industry good grief the list is endless.

Never mind once your economy is ruined and your country is bankrupt because of your foreign adventures and military spending no doubt we will bail you out cos were that kind of people.

We're also used to terrorism, had it for years. One thing you don't do is get hysterical and convince yourself they are going to take over the whole planet.

posted by double helix

Well, take a look at nations in Africa. WE don't have the money or men to shore up there countries and carry on in the Middle East. How many other big nations do you see lending a hand? None, and the UN just pulled out of some refugee camp full of Hutu's. That was the last thing standing between them and the rebels that chased them from thier country and killed off most of the population of Hutu's to begin with. Do you see any big headlines in the news of Itialy, or Spain, or Germany racing in to help

Well no but that's because it was us colonial powers that caused a lot of the problems in africa in the first place. It's guilt plus the fact it would take a massive military effort. At the end of the day countries have to sort themselves out outsiders can't really do it for them.

You also don't see South Africa zimbabwe, libya, egypt or any other african country offering to help either, the chinese keep to themselves and the Japanese worry about the chinese, India worries about pakistan so they won't be sending troops if they can help it.

Hypocrisy and self interest on the part of governments are traits the world over.

What about Saudi Arabia? why aren't they sending troops as part of the peacekeeping force to the Lebanon-they're pretty good at funding terrorists so why not help pay for some of the damage they cause. I know why not get the Bin laden construction group to rebuild Iraq, I'm sure they can use the money. Just think what the company slogan could be "death, destruction and construction service with a prayer"