price of peace

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:13 pm

this is one post i'm gonna try and be sensible on

i support the troops by that i mean i don't want any one to get killed out there but also i don't want them killing any one either

should they be there ? i really don't know what are the alternatives ?

Muslims i want peace but how can you have peace with people who's end game is Islamic state world end ,of no compromise ? i don't know tell me

every time you turn on the TV there is another conspiracy theory regarding 9/11 the war , special sinister groups in number 10 and the white house

guys to me the whole thing is a mess ..... what do you guys think troops in...troops out , peace, war .....

any way i'm going to bed and I'll read some of the posts in the morning

it will be interesting to see what are the points of view on both sides of the pond

and if you want the boys back home does that make you a traitor

and if you don't are you a war monger

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:17 pm

Yes, a thorny one right now. My opinion is that the war in Afganistan was justifyable and that the U.S. and NATO should stay there and defeat the Taliban as its in the interest of the Afgans, of the Region, and both International and Western Security. Its going to be a long difficult conflict, but it is the right thing to do.

The war in Iraq is another matter, it was an unjustifyable war, started on a false premise, based on wildly optimistic strategy over the long term. It has seriously damaged western credibility, cost tens of thousands of lives, destabilized the region, cost a fortune, served no interest of either the American or British people whose soliders are dying in the conflict and who are paying for it, as well as Iraqis of course. It has seriously undermined the NATO alliance, and made it infinietly harder to deal with problems such as North Korea and Iran. Its been the worst U.S. forign policy debacle since Vietnam, and the worst British foreign policy diaster since August 1914. I admire Tony Blair for a lot of things, but what he has done in terms of Iraq to me is unforgivable and if I was British I would be very, very angry. What to do about it at this stage is anyone's guess, but its my guess that British troops will be removed from Iraq relatively quickly once a new prime minister, whoever it is, is in office. As for what the U.S. should do I will leave that up to American posters to talk about.

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:18 pm

Galbally wrote: As for what the U.S. should do I will leave that up to American posters to talk about.

We all live under the Sun and Moon Galbally...I understand you don't want to impose on affairs but by god, if you have an opinion about something speak it. We're talking about people here not nationality. Good will has no favoritism.

(Edited - Im only talking about you not wanting to say anything on behalf of American involvemnent)

If you want to talk in terms of regime change, I am all for stabilizing Iraq, and keeping that lunatic away from horsepower, let alone complete control of an entire country. His pockets are lined with blood, and to be honest the only real resistance over there are from insurgence. The entire Iraqi army has surrendered like that from Desert Storm. The people who are fighting are the ones that have the most to lose, which in a country as perverse as Iraq they couldn't have gotten much without immoral choices. People continue to act as if Iraq can possibly be worse after such intervention, I myself see what can possibly be a bright future for Iraq and the entire middle east, and I'm sure the kids on Iraqi streets getting handed water and food from soldiers do too.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:10 pm

That whole region was festering. They were feeding on each others hate for the West. They were funding homicide bombers and cheering on 9-11. The festering boil has been lanced and it isn't pretty but it's the first step toward healing.

SuzyB · Post by **SuzyB** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:31 am

When i went to Florida in 2002, many Americans in conversation were saying how great they thought Tony Blair was, one particular woman was talking about terrorism, i said yes we'd been living with this for years, she looked at me like i was mad, many innocent lives have been taken by the IRA and one of their biggest financial backers are the Americans. Why can't we all just get along :-4

K.Snyder · Post by **K.Snyder** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:36 am

SuzyB wrote: When i went to Florida in 2002, many Americans in conversation were saying how great they thought Tony Blair was, one particular woman was talking about terrorism, i said yes we'd been living with this for years, she looked at me like i was mad, many innocent lives have been taken by the IRA and one of their biggest financial backers are the Americans. Why can't we all just get along :-4

I like to think of them as just people who happened to be born in the U.S. myself. My idea of Americans may be different from others', but one thing is for sure, I'm not going to even be remotely considered as barring the same name as those people....even if that means giving up my right to call myself an American if majority plays a role.

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:18 am

SuzyB wrote: When i went to Florida in 2002, many Americans in conversation were saying how great they thought Tony Blair was, one particular woman was talking about terrorism, i said yes we'd been living with this for years, she looked at me like i was mad, many innocent lives have been taken by the IRA and one of their biggest financial backers are the Americans. Why can't we all just get along :-4

suzy cancels her contributions to nor-aid then

guys i was really hoping for a lively debate on this

should we be over there if so why, if not why not

how do you deal with people that have no qualms about blowing up thousands of innocent people

i for one would like to see the sas go in and take out all known terrorists

yup you might take out a few people that are just part of the propaganda machine and I'd say i don't have a problem with that

and to all the hate preachers and inciters send em back to the countries they love so much .... oh no they would not like that no freedom of speech and of course they wont get state hand outs from the very people they want to blow up will they oh no that's much to much like hard work me thinks

answers guys i want answers ...... i have a PC and i'm not scared to use it

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:20 am

ok i have a pc though i'm not scared to use it i dont know how to use it

but i have a 12 year old stepson and he does so be afraid ..very afraid

its amazing the very people who have on their post supporting our troops and stuff have nothing to say on this

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:37 am

Galbally wrote: Yes, a thorny one right now. My opinion is that the war in Afganistan was justifyable and that the U.S. and NATO should stay there and defeat the Taliban as its in the interest of the Afgans, of the Region, and both International and Western Security. Its going to be a long difficult conflict, but it is the right thing to do.

The war in Iraq is another matter, it was an unjustifyable war, started on a false premise, based on wildly optimistic strategy over the long term. It has seriously damaged western credibility, cost tens of thousands of lives, destabilized the region, cost a fortune, served no interest of either the American or British people whose soliders are dying in the conflict and who are paying for it, as well as Iraqis of course. It has seriously undermined the NATO alliance, and made it infinietly harder to deal with problems such as North Korea and Iran. Its been the worst U.S. forign policy debacle since Vietnam, and the worst British foreign policy diaster since August 1914. I admire Tony Blair for a lot of things, but what he has done in terms of Iraq to me is unforgivable and if I was British I would be very, very angry. What to do about it at this stage is anyone's guess, but its my guess that British troops will be removed from Iraq relatively quickly once a new prime minister, whoever it is, is in office. As for what the U.S. should do I will leave that up to American posters to talk about.

Great post, Dr. G :-6

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:18 am

I agree that Iraq was a mistake but disagree with pulling out right now. I think that would be the worst thing to do for the people of Iraq. It would quickly become a complete civil war IMO and the government would fall. I would like to see an international presence in Iraq to help stabalize the country but Bush has runined any chance of that so I guess the US is on it's own. I would clearly state the commitment is not open ended but no time table for US withdrawl would be announced..It may be time to start looking at the possibility of partioning Iraq into three new states, Sunni, Shia, and Kurd, but that's whole new can of worms isn't it.

Afganistan was and is just; but has been mishandled particuarly by the international communicty who have not come through with their financial commitments. The Taliban is only popular in parts of the Pashtun areas they are hated by most Afghan's of other ethnicity. It is a mistake to characterize their activity as a serious resurgence..

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:51 am

jimbo wrote: suzy cancels her contributions to nor-aid then

guys i was really hoping for a lively debate on this

should we be over there if so why, if not why not

how do you deal with people that have no qualms about blowing up thousands of innocent people

i for one would like to see the sas go in and take out all known terrorists

yup you might take out a few people that are just part of the propaganda machine and I'd say i don't have a problem with that

and to all the hate preachers and inciters send em back to the countries they love so much .... oh no they would not like that no freedom of speech and of course they wont get state hand outs from the very people they want to blow up will they oh no that's much to much like hard work me thinks

answers guys i want answers ...... i have a PC and i'm not scared to use it

Okay Jimbo, here's my opinion. Should NATO forces be in afganistan, yes they should be.

Should they be in Iraq, no, but they cannont just pull out now as other posters have mentioned. What is to be done in Iraq I don't know, its a quagmire and is already in a state of civil war, and as the tension grows with Iran that situation is going to get worse, if the Israelis bomb Iranian nuclear facilities (which seems likely the way things are going), its going to get much much worse, I don't honestly know what the solution is at this stage.

How do you deal with al-queda? You start by disrupting thier ability to mount attacks by military and intelligence action; you take on countries that are supporting them either with money or safe-havens, or intelligence; you disrupt their funding; you isolate them from mainstream muslim opinion; you openly challenge their world view; you give moderate muslims and muslim countries aid and support; you infiltrate extreme groups and set them on each other (after all al-queda is not one organization but a collective of many; you co-opt the rest of the world into playing an active and constructive role in lessening international and cultural tensions; you also make sure that in reacting to terrorism you don't compromise our own societies' values as that is simply doing their work for them.

Should the SAS go in and take all terrorists out? The SAS does not have that capability Jimbo, there are thousands of operatives in scores of countries. But where special forces can be used they should be, that is what they are there for. Just make sure that you know who you are targeting and that the results won't be counter productive (I use the example of Israel's targeting of palestinian extremists there, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't).

Again for the last part, for people who are inciting violence in the U.K. or elsewhere, they should be dealt with harshly but lawfully, again its important though to not create a situation where all muslims or whatever feel they are being collectively punished for the actions of extremists etc, as that is completely counterprodutive.

The simple answer is, there is no quick fix or simple solutions to this problem, but what is required is a range of long-term and determined action punitivley dealing with extremists, while at the same time trying to lessen the more general friction and conflict that is starting emerge between muslims and westerners.

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:17 pm

jimbo wrote: ok i have a pc though i'm not scared to use it i dont know how to use it

but i have a 12 year old stepson and he does so be afraid ..very afraid

its amazing the very people who have on their post supporting our troops and stuff have nothing to say on this

I think I've made my feeling on the matter quite plain enough to fancy rehashing them again here.

SuzyB · Post by **SuzyB** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:39 pm

Galbally wrote: Okay Jimbo, here's my opinion. Should NATO forces be in afganistan, yes they should be.

Should they be in Iraq, no, but they cannont just pull out now as other posters have mentioned. What is to be done in Iraq I don't know, its a quagmire and is already in a state of civil war, and as the tension grows with Iran that situation is going to get worse, if the Israelis bomb Iranian nuclear facilities (which seems likely the way things are going), its going to get much much worse, I don't honestly know what the solution is at this stage.

How do you deal with al-queda? You start by disrupting thier ability to mount attacks by military and intelligence action; you take on countries that are supporting them either with money or safe-havens, or intelligence; you disrupt their funding; you isolate them from mainstream muslim opinion; you openly challenge their world view; you give moderate muslims and muslim countries aid and support; you infiltrate extreme groups and set them on each other (after all al-queda is not one organization but a collective of many; you co-opt the rest of the world into playing an active and constructive role in lessening international and cultural tensions; you also make sure that in reacting to terrorism you don't compromise our own societies' values as that is simply doing their work for them.

Should the SAS go in and take all terrorists out? The SAS does not have that capability Jimbo, there are thousands of operatives in scores of countries. But where special forces can be used they should be, that is what they are there for. Just make sure that you know who you are targeting and that the results won't be counter productive (I use the example of Israel's targeting of palestinian extremists there, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't).

Again for the last part, for people who are inciting violence in the U.K. or elsewhere, they should be dealt with harshly but lawfully, again its important though to not create a situation where all muslims or whatever feel they are being collectively punished for the actions of extremists etc, as that is completely counterprodutive.

The simple answer is, there is no quick fix or simple solutions to this problem, but what is required is a range of long-term and determined action punitivley dealing with extremists, while at the same time trying to lessen the more general friction and conflict that is starting emerge between muslims and westerners.

God your smart, i wish i'd gone to your school, actually any school would of probably helped

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:01 pm

SuzyB wrote: God your smart, i wish i'd gone to your school, actually any school would of probably helped

Thank you, but being smart is not everything in life unfortunatly.

Carl44 · Post by **Carl44** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:14 pm

Galbally wrote: Okay Jimbo, here's my opinion. Should NATO forces be in afganistan, yes they should be.

Should they be in Iraq, no, but they cannont just pull out now as other posters have mentioned. What is to be done in Iraq I don't know, its a quagmire and is already in a state of civil war, and as the tension grows with Iran that situation is going to get worse, if the Israelis bomb Iranian nuclear facilities (which seems likely the way things are going), its going to get much much worse, I don't honestly know what the solution is at this stage.

How do you deal with al-queda? You start by disrupting thier ability to mount attacks by military and intelligence action; you take on countries that are supporting them either with money or safe-havens, or intelligence; you disrupt their funding; you isolate them from mainstream muslim opinion; you openly challenge their world view; you give moderate muslims and muslim countries aid and support; you infiltrate extreme groups and set them on each other (after all al-queda is not one organization but a collective of many; you co-opt the rest of the world into playing an active and constructive role in lessening international and cultural tensions; you also make sure that in reacting to terrorism you don't compromise our own societies' values as that is simply doing their work for them.

Should the SAS go in and take all terrorists out? The SAS does not have that capability Jimbo, there are thousands of operatives in scores of countries. But where special forces can be used they should be, that is what they are there for. Just make sure that you know who you are targeting and that the results won't be counter productive (I use the example of Israel's targeting of palestinian extremists there, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't).

Again for the last part, for people who are inciting violence in the U.K. or elsewhere, they should be dealt with harshly but lawfully, again its important though to not create a situation where all muslims or whatever feel they are being collectively punished for the actions of extremists etc, as that is completely counterprodutive.

The simple answer is, there is no quick fix or simple solutions to this problem, but what is required is a range of long-term and determined action punitivley dealing with extremists, while at the same time trying to lessen the more general friction and conflict that is starting emerge between muslims and westerners.
as usual genius

ElphabatheCurious · Post by **ElphabatheCurious** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:15 pm

I think we are all sick of war and losing American lives, but there is one way to end this debacle and no ones suggested it. If we send all women who are in the throes of Menopause, and PMS to Iraq, they could clean out that country in no time. Lets see those Muslims argue with older women who are armed and in the throes of a hot flash!:sneaky: