Stuck in Iraq

Peg · Post by **Peg** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:57 am

What do you all think of Kerry's comment?

"Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy?" Kerry was to say. "You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq. Just ask President Bush."
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washi ... op/?page=2

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:59 am

Bad joke gone awry..

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:19 am

Big deal. I'm more concerned with how many people are being murdered.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:47 am

There was an element of truth in what he was saying I suppose, but it was a bad gaffe and disrespectful to US soldiers, probably explains why he wasn't that sucessful in his candidacy for the presidency,

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:57 pm

He gave one of those lame-ass apologies like the Pope did. "I'm sorry that somebody twisted my words" or some such tripe. How is that an apology??

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:04 pm

Galbally;446677 wrote: There was an element of truth in what he was saying I suppose, but it was a bad gaffe and disrespectful to US soldiers, probably explains why he wasn't that sucessful in his candidacy for the presidency,
There was an element of stereotype. Here's the truth. This was from 1998. The education levels are higher now, to be sure.

[edited: The table didn't come out right]

LINK

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:53 pm

Scrat;447303 wrote: What was there to apologize for? He intended to point out that Bush is basically a drooling Texas idjit.

Bush spent most of his college life on drugs and boozing. What laurels he got was because of his family name, not his efforts.

The molehill has been turned into a mountain by the desperate neocons.

bush's GPA at Yale was higher than Kerry's. maybe kerry got better drugs?

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:44 pm

Diuretic;447309 wrote: [...]

He most certainly wasn't insulting the troops, but he did fumble his slur of Bush. How do you conclude that? I was insulted. Kerry built his entire career on badmouthing the military. The "joke" bombed big time and his handlers scrambled to make up some lame-ass sidestep.

I'm constantly baffled at the calibre of crap the people of Massachusetts continue to vote into office.

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:21 pm

Accountable;447357 wrote: How do you conclude that? I was insulted. Kerry built his entire career on badmouthing the military. The "joke" bombed big time and his handlers scrambled to make up some lame-ass sidestep.

I'm constantly baffled at the calibre of crap the people of Massachusetts continue to vote into office.

Mass lunacy :-5

RedGlitter · Post by **RedGlitter** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:08 pm

Diuretic;447309 wrote: I was watching one of the commentary shows on Fox and it was amusing watching several people agreeing with each other that Kerry was "insulting the troops", trying to outdo each other in building up false outrage.

Ain't that the truth. I finally turned it off when too many talking heads were actually using the word "outrage."

Clint · Post by **Clint** » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:29 pm

Scrat;447372 wrote: Depends on what courses you take in some cases, in others it's who your daddy is. The son of a big wallet isn't going to get bad grades given to him is he?

Wishing it was so doesn't make it so. Show us the proof.

Kerry's going to drop like a rock this time. I predict a small bounce at the bottom, then we'll only see his name used in past tense. :yh_wave

He said what he said and it was an insult.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:31 am

Clint;447370 wrote: Mass lunacy :-5

that sir, is a first-rate pun. outstanding!

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:41 am

Accountable;447357 wrote: How do you conclude that? I was insulted. Kerry built his entire career on badmouthing the military. The "joke" bombed big time and his handlers scrambled to make up some lame-ass sidestep.

I'm constantly baffled at the calibre of crap the people of Massachusetts continue to vote into office.

As a total outsider in this, I don't see it.

It doesn't say "if you're thick you end up in Iraq" - it is not pointed at the troops (no-one could be that dumb).

It's "if your thick you get us into a war in Iraq" - pointed straight at GWB.

Laboured maybe, but I don't see it as badmouthing the millitary.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:59 am

Bryn Mawr;447404 wrote: As a total outsider in this, I don't see it.

It doesn't say "if you're thick you end up in Iraq" - it is not pointed at the troops (no-one could be that dumb).

It's "if your thick you get us into a war in Iraq" - pointed straight at GWB.

Laboured maybe, but I don't see it as badmouthing the millitary.

since that's not what he said, i don't see your point.

these were his exact words:

Yesterday I was in the state of Texas...As you all know, president Bush used to live there, now he lives in the state of denial....[a/the] state of deception...I'm glad to be here I really am...Thank you for the privilege of coming here....we're here to talk about education, but i want to say something before that....you know education...if you make the most of it, you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart....you can do well, if you don't you get stuck in iraq.

i just transcribed that from the video. the reality is, this backtracking is just that - backtracking. he clearly segued from his one liner about bush into how they were going to talk about education. he didn't say "you get US stuck in iraq". he said "you get stuck in iraq".

there's no sugar coating it. what he did was he made a freudian slip. kerry has always spoken poorly of military servicemen. he admitted to committing war crimes in vietnam, before a congressional panel (but never submitted himself for trial on those charges, of course).

no, this other line of discussion, this later 'conversion' of his words as being a 'bungled' joke about bush - it's utter nonsense.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:33 am

Accountable;447357 wrote: I'm constantly baffled at the calibre of crap the people of Massachusetts continue to vote into office.

Hey

I resemble that remark

Still love you Acc :-6

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:37 am

anastrophe;447416 wrote: ...what he did was he made a freudian slip. ...

no, this other line of discussion, this later 'conversion' of his words as being a 'bungled' joke about bush - it's utter nonsense.

Freudian slip n. A verbal mistake that is thought to reveal an unconscious belief, thought, or emotion.

How can something be a mistake on one hand and then not a mistake. He either misspoke or he didn't. Your calling the correction "utter nonsense" implies that you think it was not a mistake, in which case it is not a Freudian slip.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:35 am

Diuretic;447465 wrote: I know Kerry would never be a Senator from Texas so perhaps that's why he didn't move from New England to the Republic of Texas

As for my conclusion about his remarks. Firstly, I listened several times to what he said and how he said it. Then I saw and heard him explaining it later. Not for a one moment do I think he was insulting the military. He made that point. I don't think he's a liar (okay he's a politician so he gets some slack on that one but really I don't think he is lying).
We'll just have to disagree, then. I believe he lied, he is a liar, and he will lie without hesitation if he thinks it will get him what he wants. I believe he has no conscience and gives very little, if any, thought to right and wrong. I believe he insults the military with regularity because he has found doing so causes his inner circle to give him the positive feedback his craves, and that sometimes he forgets that his inner circle isn't as big as he wishes it were - that's when his "bungles" hit the headlines. I believe the only difference between him and a sociopath is that he has an ego that must be fed.

I also believe he is not unique in politics.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:24 am

Accountable;447512 wrote: We'll just have to disagree, then. I believe he lied, he is a liar, and he will lie without hesitation if he thinks it will get him what he wants. I believe he has no conscience and gives very little, if any, thought to right and wrong. I believe he insults the military with regularity because he has found doing so causes his inner circle to give him the positive feedback his craves, and that sometimes he forgets that his inner circle isn't as big as he wishes it were - that's when his "bungles" hit the headlines. I believe the only difference between him and a sociopath is that he has an ego that must be fed.

I also believe he is not unique in politics.

Hmmmm

That part sounds an awful lot like our president to me :-6

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:09 am

anastrophe;447416 wrote: since that's not what he said, i don't see your point.

these were his exact words:

Yesterday I was in the state of Texas...As you all know, president Bush used to live there, now he lives in the state of denial....[a/the] state of deception...I'm glad to be here I really am...Thank you for the privilege of coming here....we're here to talk about education, but i want to say something before that....you know education...if you make the most of it, you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart....you can do well, if you don't you get stuck in iraq.

i just transcribed that from the video. the reality is, this backtracking is just that - backtracking. he clearly segued from his one liner about bush into how they were going to talk about education. he didn't say "you get US stuck in iraq". he said "you get stuck in iraq".

there's no sugar coating it. what he did was he made a freudian slip. kerry has always spoken poorly of military servicemen. he admitted to committing war crimes in vietnam, before a congressional panel (but never submitted himself for trial on those charges, of course).

no, this other line of discussion, this later 'conversion' of his words as being a 'bungled' joke about bush - it's utter nonsense.

Yeah, I'm just glad Bush says exactly what he means & can pronounce every word CORRECTLY!!! :-5

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:57 am

SnoozeControl;447522 wrote: You don't think it's telling that he prefaced his remark that you're interpreting as an insult to our troops with a little Bush bashing? He WAS talking about George Dubya. Besides, it'd be career suicide to insult our military and no matter what you think or feel about Kerry, he's not stupid.

watch the video, then decide. the transcription doesn't do it justice. he very clearly segued during his comments, away from the bush bashing. further, the joke doesn't have any punch at all if you claim he meant bush. it makes perfect sense in the context of the old vietnam/draft era, when those who couldn't get a college deferment got drafted. that's where kerry came from, that's where his mind was.

kerry has insulted the military time and time again. he's old-school lefty. go watch the tapes of his testimony to congress after he came back from vietnam, characterizing troops as marauding killer maniacs. admitting to having committed war crimes.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:59 am

observer1;447644 wrote: Yeah, I'm just glad Bush says exactly what he means & can pronounce every word CORRECTLY!!! :-5

how does that have any substantive effect upon what kerry said? it's not in contention whether george bush is a good or (excruciatingly) bad public speaker. we're talking about john kerry's comments.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:06 am

frankly, i think part of the reason some see it as a jab at bush, and others see it as a jab at the military, is due to the different interpretations of "stuck".

if a jab at bush, it's being interpreted as getting tangled up in and unable to extricate from iraq.

if a jab at the military, it's being interpreted as being sent to iraq.

"my connecting flight was delayed, so i was stuck in denver airport for three hours with nothing to do"

"they screwed up my dinner reservation, so we were stuck at a table right next to the bathroom, rather than up front at the windows like we asked"

ugh. hard to make a good example.

koan · Post by **koan** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:17 am

Bush wrote: There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again.

It is quite clear that the president subconsciously had trouble stating that he ought to be ashamed of himself if he is fooled twice. His aversion to stating this well known principle is obviously a manifestation of his inability to take responsibility for the decisions of his administration.

Insisting that when someone says they misspoke they are lying and they intended to say exactly what came out, would rewrite the character of more than a few people. Unless we are to believe that no one ever screws up the delivery of a joke.

cars · Post by **cars** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:40 am

cherandbuster;447598 wrote: Hmmmm

That part sounds an awful lot like our president to me :-6

Remember, "both" are "politicians"! :wah:

observer1 · Post by **observer1** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:04 pm

anastrophe;447931 wrote: how does that have any substantive effect upon what kerry said? it's not in contention whether george bush is a good or (excruciatingly) bad public speaker. we're talking about john kerry's comments.

You know exactly what I'm getting at, anastrophe. I'm not playing that with you this time.

anastrophe · Post by **anastrophe** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:56 pm

observer1;448040 wrote: You know exactly what I'm getting at, anastrophe. I'm not playing that with you this time.

yes, you're equivocating for effect, and for your own point of view. not that there's anything wrong with it. everyone's doing it.

Galbally · Post by **Galbally** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:56 pm

Just to change this away from Kerry for a minute, I think one interesting thing is that everyone in politics in both Britain and America are so terrified of actually confronting the actual issue in Iraq (i.e. the war is not going very well at all) that all there is left to fight about is a stupid gaffe that a not very sucessful candidate in America said about education and soliders stuck in Iraq.

The pertinent issue is that America and its allies are stuck in Iraq because they never had a clear exit strategy, or probably even an entry stratgey, the upshot of that is, they are stuck in a war they didn't need to fight, with no clear idea of how to get out, Iraq is in civil war, the government of Iraq do not control the country, as soon as the U.S. and Britain leave the country will slide into complete breakdown and will probably split into 3 areas, (all dominated by immeadiate neighbours, Turkey, Iran, and Syria) there is a high probablility of a regional conflict, involving a key Nato ally, Turkey. Sadam gets a day in court (hooray? so what?), and Iran meanwhile continues to attempt to build a nuclear weapon that would be in the range of 200,000 western soliders, undoubtly their will be a conflict with Iran, but how is that gona play out now?. And all of this stupid Iraq fiasco cost how many billions of dollars, and lives? Now that is stupidity, however you look at it.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:30 am

cherandbuster;447598 wrote: Hmmmm

That part sounds an awful lot like our president to me :-6
There's one major difference between Bush and Kerry that can't be ignored: Kerry is much taller.

Accountable · Post by **Accountable** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:35 am

koan;447947 wrote: It is quite clear that the president subconsciously had trouble stating that he ought to be ashamed of himself if he is fooled twice. His aversion to stating this well known principle is obviously a manifestation of his inability to take responsibility for the decisions of his administration.

Insisting that when someone says they misspoke they are lying and they intended to say exactly what came out, would rewrite the character of more than a few people. Unless we are to believe that no one ever screws up the delivery of a joke.
Apparently you didn't see the video. I saw both. Bush tripped all over himself (characteristically) trying to spit out a familiar saying. Kerry (also characteristically) plodded through an apparently planned sentence. Apples and oranges.

No one is rewriting anyone's character; the characters have simply been revealed.

Note: This post should in no way be construed as support for Bush's current policies.

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:03 am

Accountable;448509 wrote: There's one major difference between Bush and Kerry that can't be ignored: Kerry is much taller.

Acc

You're great :guitarist

cherandbuster · Post by **cherandbuster** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:04 am

Galbally;448321 wrote: Just to change this away from Kerry for a minute, I think one interesting thing is that everyone in politics in both Britain and America are so terrified of actually confronting the actual issue in Iraq (i.e. the war is not going very well at all) that all there is left to fight about is a stupid gaffe that a not very sucessful candidate in America said about education and soliders stuck in Iraq.

The pertinent issue is that America and its allies are stuck in Iraq because they never had a clear exit strategy, or probably even an entry stratgey, the upshot of that is, they are stuck in a war they didn't need to fight, with no clear idea of how to get out, Iraq is in civil war, the government of Iraq do not control the country, as soon as the U.S. and Britain leave the country will slide into complete breakdown and will probably split into 3 areas, (all dominated by immeadiate neighbours, Turkey, Iran, and Syria) there is a high probablility of a regional conflict, involving a key Nato ally, Turkey. Sadam gets a day in court (hooray? so what?), and Iran meanwhile continues to attempt to build a nuclear weapon that would be in the range of 200,000 western soliders, undoubtly their will be a conflict with Iran, but how is that gona play out now?. And all of this stupid Iraq fiasco cost how many billions of dollars, and lives? Now that is stupidity, however you look at it.

Dr. G

Great post

guppy · Post by **guppy** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:06 am

Accountable;448515 wrote: Apparently you didn't see the video. I saw both. Bush tripped all over himself (characteristically) trying to spit out a familiar saying. Kerry (also characteristically) plodded through an apparently planned sentence. Apples and oranges.

No one is rewriting anyone's character; the characters have simply been revealed.

Note: This post should in no way be construed as support for Bush's current policies.

i can't wait untill they are both gone......

telephoto lens · Post by **telephoto lens** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:06 am

The following is a good article about Kerry's overpublicized remarks:

http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff11022006.html

And whatever you think of his remarks it must be noted that (because of the difficulty in Iraq) the US Army has lowered their standards of recruitment:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200610120006

Personally I think Kerry's recent 'hoof-in-mouth' comment is good for the democratic party. It eliminates a ineffective politician who obviously could not run a successful campaign if his life depended on it. His departure from the 2008 presidential campaign will open the door even wider for other candidates and this is a good thing.

zinkyusa · Post by **zinkyusa** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:07 am

telephoto lens;448780 wrote: The following is a good article about Kerry's overpublicized remarks:

http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff11022006.html

And whatever you think of his remarks it must be noted that (because of the difficulty in Iraq) the US Army has lowered their standards of recruitment:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200610120006

Personally I think Kerry's recent 'hoof-in-mouth' comment is good for the democratic party. It eliminates a ineffective politician who obviously could not run a successful campaign if his life depended on it. His departure from the 2008 presidential campaign will open the door even wider for other candidates and this is a good thing.

Good point..

Post by **Bryn Mawr** » Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:41 pm

anastrophe;447416 wrote: since that's not what he said, i don't see your point.

these were his exact words:

Yesterday I was in the state of Texas...As you all know, president Bush used to live there, now he lives in the state of denial....[a/the] state of deception...I'm glad to be here I really am...Thank you for the privilege of coming here....we're here to talk about education, but i want to say something before that....you know education...if you make the most of it, you study hard and you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart....you can do well, if you don't you get stuck in iraq.

i just transcribed that from the video. the reality is, this backtracking is just that - backtracking. he clearly segued from his one liner about bush into how they were going to talk about education. he didn't say "you get US stuck in iraq". he said "you get stuck in iraq".

there's no sugar coating it. what he did was he made a freudian slip. kerry has always spoken poorly of military servicemen. he admitted to committing war crimes in vietnam, before a congressional panel (but never submitted himself for trial on those charges, of course).

no, this other line of discussion, this later 'conversion' of his words as being a 'bungled' joke about bush - it's utter nonsense.

Just responding to the quoted text in post #1 - political squables like this don't get reported here, we have enough of our own.