This article appeared in yesterday's L.A. Times. I liked it and thought I'd share.
10 myths -- and 10 truths -- about atheism
By Sam Harris
SAM HARRIS is the author of "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason" and "Letter to a Christian Nation."
December 24, 2006
SEVERAL POLLS indicate that the term "atheism" has acquired such an extraordinary stigma in the United States that being an atheist is now a perfect impediment to a career in politics (in a way that being black, Muslim or homosexual is not). According to a recent Newsweek poll, only 37% of Americans would vote for an otherwise qualified atheist for president.
Atheists are often imagined to be intolerant, immoral, depressed, blind to the beauty of nature and dogmatically closed to evidence of the supernatural.
Even John Locke, one of the great patriarchs of the Enlightenment, believed that atheism was "not at all to be tolerated" because, he said, "promises, covenants and oaths, which are the bonds of human societies, can have no hold upon an atheist."
That was more than 300 years ago. But in the United States today, little seems to have changed. A remarkable 87% of the population claims "never to doubt" the existence of God; fewer than 10% identify themselves as atheists — and their reputation appears to be deteriorating.
Given that we know that atheists are often among the most intelligent and scientifically literate people in any society, it seems important to deflate the myths that prevent them from playing a larger role in our national discourse.
1) Atheists believe that life is meaningless.
On the contrary, religious people often worry that life is meaningless and imagine that it can only be redeemed by the promise of eternal happiness beyond the grave. Atheists tend to be quite sure that life is precious. Life is imbued with meaning by being really and fully lived. Our relationships with those we love are meaningful now; they need not last forever to be made so. Atheists tend to find this fear of meaninglessness ¦ well ¦ meaningless.
2) Atheism is responsible for the greatest crimes in human history.
People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.
3) Atheism is dogmatic.
Jews, Christians and Muslims claim that their scriptures are so prescient of humanity's needs that they could only have been written under the direction of an omniscient deity. An atheist is simply a person who has considered this claim, read the books and found the claim to be ridiculous. One doesn't have to take anything on faith, or be otherwise dogmatic, to reject unjustified religious beliefs. As the historian Stephen Henry Roberts (1901-71) once said: "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
4) Atheists think everything in the universe arose by chance.
No one knows why the universe came into being. In fact, it is not entirely clear that we can coherently speak about the "beginning" or "creation" of the universe at all, as these ideas invoke the concept of time, and here we are talking about the origin of space-time itself.
The notion that atheists believe that everything was created by chance is also regularly thrown up as a criticism of Darwinian evolution. As Richard Dawkins explains in his marvelous book, "The God Delusion," this represents an utter misunderstanding of evolutionary theory. Although we don't know precisely how the Earth's early chemistry begat biology, we know that the diversity and complexity we see in the living world is not a product of mere chance. Evolution is a combination of chance mutation and natural selection. Darwin arrived at the phrase "natural selection" by analogy to the "artificial selection" performed by breeders of livestock. In both cases, selection exerts a highly non-random effect on the development of any species.
5) Atheism has no connection to science.
Although it is possible to be a scientist and still believe in God — as some scientists seem to manage it — there is no question that an engagement with scientific thinking tends to erode, rather than support, religious faith. Taking the U.S. population as an example: Most polls show that about 90% of the general public believes in a personal God; yet 93% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not. This suggests that there are few modes of thinking less congenial to religious faith than science is.
6) Atheists are arrogant.
When scientists don't know something — like why the universe came into being or how the first self-replicating molecules formed — they admit it. Pretending to know things one doesn't know is a profound liability in science. And yet it is the life-blood of faith-based religion. One of the monumental ironies of religious discourse can be found in the frequency with which people of faith praise themselves for their humility, while claiming to know facts about cosmology, chemistry and biology that no scientist knows. When considering questions about the nature of the cosmos and our place within it, atheists tend to draw their opinions from science. This isn't arrogance; it is intellectual honesty.
7) Atheists are closed to spiritual experience.
There is nothing that prevents an atheist from experiencing love, ecstasy, rapture and awe; atheists can value these experiences and seek them regularly. What atheists don't tend to do is make unjustified (and unjustifiable) claims about the nature of reality on the basis of such experiences. There is no question that some Christians have transformed their lives for the better by reading the Bible and praying to Jesus. What does this prove? It proves that certain disciplines of attention and codes of conduct can have a profound effect upon the human mind. Do the positive experiences of Christians suggest that Jesus is the sole savior of humanity? Not even remotely — because Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and even atheists regularly have similar experiences.
There is, in fact, not a Christian on this Earth who can be certain that Jesus even wore a beard, much less that he was born of a virgin or rose from the dead. These are just not the sort of claims that spiritual experience can authenticate.
8) Atheists believe that there is nothing beyond human life and human understanding.
Atheists are free to admit the limits of human understanding in a way that religious people are not. It is obvious that we do not fully understand the universe; but it is even more obvious that neither the Bible nor the Koran reflects our best understanding of it. We do not know whether there is complex life elsewhere in the cosmos, but there might be. If there is, such beings could have developed an understanding of nature's laws that vastly exceeds our own. Atheists can freely entertain such possibilities. They also can admit that if brilliant extraterrestrials exist, the contents of the Bible and the Koran will be even less impressive to them than they are to human atheists.
From the atheist point of view, the world's religions utterly trivialize the real beauty and immensity of the universe. One doesn't have to accept anything on insufficient evidence to make such an observation.
9) Atheists ignore the fact that religion is extremely beneficial to society.
Those who emphasize the good effects of religion never seem to realize that such effects fail to demonstrate the truth of any religious doctrine. This is why we have terms such as "wishful thinking" and "self-deception." There is a profound distinction between a consoling delusion and the truth.
In any case, the good effects of religion can surely be disputed. In most cases, it seems that religion gives people bad reasons to behave well, when good reasons are actually available. Ask yourself, which is more moral, helping the poor out of concern for their suffering, or doing so because you think the creator of the universe wants you to do it, will reward you for doing it or will punish you for not doing it?
10) Atheism provides no basis for morality.
If a person doesn't already understand that cruelty is wrong, he won't discover this by reading the Bible or the Koran — as these books are bursting with celebrations of cruelty, both human and divine. We do not get our morality from religion. We decide what is good in our good books by recourse to moral intuitions that are (at some level) hard-wired in us and that have been refined by thousands of years of thinking about the causes and possibilities of human happiness.
We have made considerable moral progress over the years, and we didn't make this progress by reading the Bible or the Koran more closely. Both books condone the practice of slavery — and yet every civilized human being now recognizes that slavery is an abomination. Whatever is good in scripture — like the golden rule — can be valued for its ethical wisdom without our believing that it was handed down to us by the creator of the universe.
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Thanks...I enjoyed all of it.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Maybe I'll have it laminated and carry it with me....I don't know HOW many times I've had to defend #10. Religious people always accuse atheists of being without morals. HAH! Do they think atheists started all the wars and began crime, etc? :rolleyes:
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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RedGlitter
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Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
In all seriousness, when one is overwhelmed by grief, depair, fear...the religious or spiritual person goes to (their) God(s.) At least I do. I would like to know where the atheist goes? I mean there are some things that seemingly to me, oneself can't handle and friends and counsellors can't really attend to. My question is sincere. I have never heard any kindof answer to this question and I can't be the only one who wonders. It's been my faith that has gotten me through times I wanted to die or thought that I would. Sure faith can be used for a crutch by people, but I'm talking in general. Thanks for any answers.Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
I guess it depends on how distraught you might be. I've always comforted myself, actually. My problems are insignificant to/in the universe and I've never needed to pray or look for answers anywhere other than how to solve the current problem.
So--in answer to your question, I think the atheist turns to him/herself, with the knowledge that tomorrow will come and things will get better.
So--in answer to your question, I think the atheist turns to him/herself, with the knowledge that tomorrow will come and things will get better.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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RedGlitter
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Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Thank you for your reply, Lulu.
It's hard for me to understand not having a higher power to relate to. I have faith inmyself but I'm only human. It comforts me to feel there is something bigger than me with some control over things. So this is hard for me to relate to but if it works for you and others then that's what matters! Thank you again for answering.
It's hard for me to understand not having a higher power to relate to. I have faith inmyself but I'm only human. It comforts me to feel there is something bigger than me with some control over things. So this is hard for me to relate to but if it works for you and others then that's what matters! Thank you again for answering.
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
We share the same outlook here, Diuretic. And, to add this...when I'm feeling low and disappointed, I think it's good to try to find the lesson in the situation. there's ALWAYS something to be learned.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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RedGlitter
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Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Thanks for your answer, Diuretic. I came back here and re-read Lulu's too. I'm still having difficulty comprehending but it's not because I don't understand what you're telling me. It's just that I would feel *naked* without my faith and without (my) God. I'm not one to blame God for when things go wrong but often when things go right I am one to give thanks when I perceive the good things coming froma higher source. I'm trying to imagine myself in your shoes and it's, well...naked. :wah:
ETA: I don't think that came out right.
What I meant is that I can't get a grasp on how it is for you guys because it is so different from my way of feeling. I did not mean any harm when I said that.
ETA: I don't think that came out right.
What I meant is that I can't get a grasp on how it is for you guys because it is so different from my way of feeling. I did not mean any harm when I said that. Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
DIURETIC "I know that Christian theology puts great store in free will but there are religions that don't. The little I know of Islam, for example, tells me that it can be a very fatalistic religion - "God's will" seems to be feature strongly. I don't like the passivity I think that might breed in people. I think it denies their humanity."
++++++++++++++ Free will MIGHT be a concept, but it seems to me that religion encourages dependence, rather than independence. What happens when things get bad? Religious people start praying...as if they might sway the "divine plan" for whatever's happening. And when the event is over, those who've been "spared" are convinced that their prayers are what saved the day. (Does this mean that anyone else didn't PRAY loudly or well enough?) There's a LOT of "God's willing" in Christianity, too.
++++++++++++++ Free will MIGHT be a concept, but it seems to me that religion encourages dependence, rather than independence. What happens when things get bad? Religious people start praying...as if they might sway the "divine plan" for whatever's happening. And when the event is over, those who've been "spared" are convinced that their prayers are what saved the day. (Does this mean that anyone else didn't PRAY loudly or well enough?) There's a LOT of "God's willing" in Christianity, too.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Ahhhh...theology created by those in power (who wish to remain there.) :wah: Remember that Joseph Campbell said the first function of myth is to inspire a sense of wonder.....it wouldn't be FUN if it weren't mysterious. 
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Joseph Campbell was a GENIUS who spent his entire life studying religions. Let's see if I can remember these....
There are four functions of myth in human life. The first is to awaken a sense of wonder and participation in the mystery of the universe.
The second is to fill every part of the universe with that mystery, regardless of which environment the human experiences. (Native Americans would've known a very different "universe" than someone in Polynesia, for example.)
Thirdly, the mythology validates whatever moral system and life-customs might be part of the local culture.
Finally, mythology gives us a way to conduct us through the passages of life, and ultimately, into death.
(You really should read his books, Diuretic...he'd speak to you as he spoke to me and, finally, he validated my view of things. Not that he's anti-religious...he merely points out WHY we need these views.
Did you know, for example, that there have been at least 14 documented cases of relgions based on a "virgin birth?" Interesting, eh?)
There are four functions of myth in human life. The first is to awaken a sense of wonder and participation in the mystery of the universe.
The second is to fill every part of the universe with that mystery, regardless of which environment the human experiences. (Native Americans would've known a very different "universe" than someone in Polynesia, for example.)
Thirdly, the mythology validates whatever moral system and life-customs might be part of the local culture.
Finally, mythology gives us a way to conduct us through the passages of life, and ultimately, into death.
(You really should read his books, Diuretic...he'd speak to you as he spoke to me and, finally, he validated my view of things. Not that he's anti-religious...he merely points out WHY we need these views.
Did you know, for example, that there have been at least 14 documented cases of relgions based on a "virgin birth?" Interesting, eh?)
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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Uncle Kram
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Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
I think that's all a load of crap if you ask me...
As far as I'm concerned anyone harboring those accusations upon anyone let alone people who don't believe in a god(I refuse to call people atheists, because to me that's rather ironic considering that in order for one to be a true atheist, religion has to exist divinely).
I believe in god(However one wishes to portray god is their poragative), and to hear of such accusations leads me to believe one thing, and that is anyone with words as sharp as those won't be considered in that of the same religion as me, that's for sure.
This blasphemy is rather annoying, and I think it's far more important to live and enjoy life than to gripe and argue about this crap. I'm sorry but there is just more important things to do.
As far as I'm concerned anyone harboring those accusations upon anyone let alone people who don't believe in a god(I refuse to call people atheists, because to me that's rather ironic considering that in order for one to be a true atheist, religion has to exist divinely).
I believe in god(However one wishes to portray god is their poragative), and to hear of such accusations leads me to believe one thing, and that is anyone with words as sharp as those won't be considered in that of the same religion as me, that's for sure.
This blasphemy is rather annoying, and I think it's far more important to live and enjoy life than to gripe and argue about this crap. I'm sorry but there is just more important things to do.
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
I shall expect a fully notated report! :wah:
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
KSNYDER: "I think that's all a load of crap if you ask me..."
I'll pass on that. You're obviously not educated in the field, nor do you have interest in expanding your education. That's fine with me.
Love,
Brenda Blasphemer
I'll pass on that. You're obviously not educated in the field, nor do you have interest in expanding your education. That's fine with me.
Love,
Brenda Blasphemer
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Diuretic: Have you looked at used books on Amazon? He and David Moyers did a marvelous series which was shown on PBS here and I believe it's available on tape.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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RedGlitter
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Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
I'm not real happy with how this topic is turning out. We're supposed to be chilling out here now I tend to not think that K's stance or my own has anything to do with not being educated. Let's try to be a little more civil?
I have to say that I find some of these comments to be a little sharp myself. I know I was attempting to be respectful and courteous to a viewpoint I do not quite "get."
I will be the first to admit that I think organized religion is more crock than benefit. However, it seems what I am hearing is that religious beliefs breed ignorance and I don't care for that. What would you say if I said that I thought that not believing in a higher being sounded a little presumptuous? It probably wouldn't be cool. But my point in that, getting back to the convo at hand, is that I didn't create myself. And while mom and dad had a part, I can't deny that God had a bigger one. I am but a mere glint in the eye of God. God and science aren't necessarily opposites in my book.
So many things I read here that I wanted to touch on but maybe this isn't the proper time.
I do want to say that regarding praying to affect the outcome of a situation, it may not be as bogus as it seems. While I am uncertain on matters of predestiny and free will, my faith does teach me that the mind can work wonders. If enough people "pray" or otherwise put out energy into the universe, the energy can manifest into the desired result. It does not always work and no one really can say why. But I do know there is power in prayer and my experiences with spirits prove to me there is something bigger than rest of us and that life continues.
I have to say that I find some of these comments to be a little sharp myself. I know I was attempting to be respectful and courteous to a viewpoint I do not quite "get."
I will be the first to admit that I think organized religion is more crock than benefit. However, it seems what I am hearing is that religious beliefs breed ignorance and I don't care for that. What would you say if I said that I thought that not believing in a higher being sounded a little presumptuous? It probably wouldn't be cool. But my point in that, getting back to the convo at hand, is that I didn't create myself. And while mom and dad had a part, I can't deny that God had a bigger one. I am but a mere glint in the eye of God. God and science aren't necessarily opposites in my book.
So many things I read here that I wanted to touch on but maybe this isn't the proper time.
I do want to say that regarding praying to affect the outcome of a situation, it may not be as bogus as it seems. While I am uncertain on matters of predestiny and free will, my faith does teach me that the mind can work wonders. If enough people "pray" or otherwise put out energy into the universe, the energy can manifest into the desired result. It does not always work and no one really can say why. But I do know there is power in prayer and my experiences with spirits prove to me there is something bigger than rest of us and that life continues.
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RedGlitter
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Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Diuretic;497297 wrote:
However when it comes to sport..........hmm, maybe that's our state religion? :-3
:wah:
Now I'll take your beliefs as a given and stand (sitting really) ready to answer any questions anyone might have about my own views.
Thanks Di
I'd like to know if you were always atheist or if your current views came to you as an adult?
Do you believe in a soul's existence?
When we die, is that all there is, nothingness?
Do you personally, feel there are any cons to atheism?
That's what I have for starters. Thanks for the opportunity!
However when it comes to sport..........hmm, maybe that's our state religion? :-3
:wah:
Now I'll take your beliefs as a given and stand (sitting really) ready to answer any questions anyone might have about my own views.
Thanks Di
I'd like to know if you were always atheist or if your current views came to you as an adult?
Do you believe in a soul's existence?
When we die, is that all there is, nothingness?
Do you personally, feel there are any cons to atheism?
That's what I have for starters. Thanks for the opportunity!
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
I am with RedGlitter on this one.
First of all I am personally familiar with several theologians and they happen to be among the highest educated folks in the world. My background is 9 years at university. Not that that matters to this issue. To suggest that religious folks are among the most uneducated is simply a generalized statement that does not stand up to scrutiny.
The fact of the matter is that logically neither side can prove their stance. Any discussion for or against the reality of a Divinity ends up invariably in circular reasoning and is a total waste of time.
It is interesting to note that even Neitzche towards the end of his life called out to God. I can produce the poem if anyone is interested.
When I read the charges, that those who claim atheism give against a religious faith,, I read a terrible lot of absolute bad theology. One example is that God never promised us an easy ride but He did promise to be there to help us through it. I can attest to that as I see RG can.
A short while ago I just finished a book titled "The Twilight of Atheism" by Alister McGrath. An interesting read indeed complete with a history of atheism which began thousands of years ago.
Shalom
Ted:-6
First of all I am personally familiar with several theologians and they happen to be among the highest educated folks in the world. My background is 9 years at university. Not that that matters to this issue. To suggest that religious folks are among the most uneducated is simply a generalized statement that does not stand up to scrutiny.
The fact of the matter is that logically neither side can prove their stance. Any discussion for or against the reality of a Divinity ends up invariably in circular reasoning and is a total waste of time.
It is interesting to note that even Neitzche towards the end of his life called out to God. I can produce the poem if anyone is interested.
When I read the charges, that those who claim atheism give against a religious faith,, I read a terrible lot of absolute bad theology. One example is that God never promised us an easy ride but He did promise to be there to help us through it. I can attest to that as I see RG can.
A short while ago I just finished a book titled "The Twilight of Atheism" by Alister McGrath. An interesting read indeed complete with a history of atheism which began thousands of years ago.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
GLITTER: "I'm not real happy with how this topic is turning out. We're supposed to be chilling out here now I tend to not think that K's stance or my own has anything to do with not being educated. Let's try to be a little more civil?"
Go back and read what KSnyder said about the subject being "a load of crap." Obviously, he is uneducated about the subject....which is what I said. Clearly, he knows nothing of research on the place of myth in human society. I hardly think it's UNCIVIL to point that out.
If you actually read what I wrote....I never said that his opinions (or yours) were uneducated. YOU read that into it...I never wrote it.
Go back and read what KSnyder said about the subject being "a load of crap." Obviously, he is uneducated about the subject....which is what I said. Clearly, he knows nothing of research on the place of myth in human society. I hardly think it's UNCIVIL to point that out.
If you actually read what I wrote....I never said that his opinions (or yours) were uneducated. YOU read that into it...I never wrote it.
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
:wah:
Snooze...I like that avatar!
Snooze...I like that avatar!
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
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RedGlitter
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Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
O, ok, I see what's going on. Lord. Gold stars for you both and extra recess time! :rolleyes:
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Lulu2:-6
I can certainly agree with the list of myths and truths. As in any group of folks you get them spread all over the spectrum. You can find extremism just about anywhere.
As far as atheism goes. If that is the path one chooses then so be it. No problem here.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I can certainly agree with the list of myths and truths. As in any group of folks you get them spread all over the spectrum. You can find extremism just about anywhere.
As far as atheism goes. If that is the path one chooses then so be it. No problem here.
Shalom
Ted:-6
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RedGlitter
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Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
SnoozeControl;497540 wrote: Tut tut and pshaw, Lulu.
Lulu, my point is that thinking a religion or lack of one is "a load of crap" is not a bad thing. It's one person's feeling. Perhaps he didn't phrase it with the most finesse but don't assume he's not educated because he isn't buying it. That's my complaint. Let's try to move on. Whether someone is religious or an atheist is not my interest but their reasons for being either one are of interest to me. Please check your PM soon. Thanks.
Lulu, my point is that thinking a religion or lack of one is "a load of crap" is not a bad thing. It's one person's feeling. Perhaps he didn't phrase it with the most finesse but don't assume he's not educated because he isn't buying it. That's my complaint. Let's try to move on. Whether someone is religious or an atheist is not my interest but their reasons for being either one are of interest to me. Please check your PM soon. Thanks.
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Glitter...I didn't say his opinion was "uneducated"...I said HE is obviously uneducated about a particular subject. I'll stand by that. "Uneducated" isn't "stupid"...it's not even a negative word.
"It's one person's feeling." Well, that's MY feeling. So I hardly think I'm "uncivil."
And I have NO idea what you mean by this: "O, ok, I see what's going on. Lord. Gold stars for you both and extra recess time!"
"It's one person's feeling." Well, that's MY feeling. So I hardly think I'm "uncivil."
And I have NO idea what you mean by this: "O, ok, I see what's going on. Lord. Gold stars for you both and extra recess time!"
My candle's burning at both ends, it will not last the night. But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--It gives a lovely light!--Edna St. Vincent Millay
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Lulu2;497258 wrote: KSNYDER: "I think that's all a load of crap if you ask me..."
I'll pass on that. You're obviously not educated in the field, nor do you have interest in expanding your education. That's fine with me.
Love,
Brenda Blasphemer
Who is educated in the field of something that cannot be proven?...
Honestly Lulu,..I think that's the most contradicting post I have ever read on this forum...Everyone has their own beliefs and of course because of that they are going to always feel they are correct about it when it's brought up, but to display ones own belief as being superior as a result is not exactly the most nobelist of stances(I'm not implying anything, rather making a statement)
Education in what, bickering and fighting against people just because one believes in a god or not? I'm sorry I have better things to do than to pull up accusations from a select group of people that in no way represents my own opinion and pass them off as being the opinion of all religious people. I said it was a load of crap, because quite frankly they can speak for themselves. I said it was a load of crap because those accusations should never be aimed at any group of people without knowing each and every one personally. You think religion and non religion can be incorporated into a mere statistic in society? That's a joke.
You should heed to the advice of those that do not believe in a god and stick to things you can prove, see, it can go both ways.
I'll pass on that. You're obviously not educated in the field, nor do you have interest in expanding your education. That's fine with me.
Love,
Brenda Blasphemer
Who is educated in the field of something that cannot be proven?...
Honestly Lulu,..I think that's the most contradicting post I have ever read on this forum...Everyone has their own beliefs and of course because of that they are going to always feel they are correct about it when it's brought up, but to display ones own belief as being superior as a result is not exactly the most nobelist of stances(I'm not implying anything, rather making a statement)
Education in what, bickering and fighting against people just because one believes in a god or not? I'm sorry I have better things to do than to pull up accusations from a select group of people that in no way represents my own opinion and pass them off as being the opinion of all religious people. I said it was a load of crap, because quite frankly they can speak for themselves. I said it was a load of crap because those accusations should never be aimed at any group of people without knowing each and every one personally. You think religion and non religion can be incorporated into a mere statistic in society? That's a joke.
You should heed to the advice of those that do not believe in a god and stick to things you can prove, see, it can go both ways.
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Lulu2;497518 wrote: GLITTER: "I'm not real happy with how this topic is turning out. We're supposed to be chilling out here now I tend to not think that K's stance or my own has anything to do with not being educated. Let's try to be a little more civil?"
Go back and read what KSnyder said about the subject being "a load of crap." Obviously, he is uneducated about the subject....which is what I said. Clearly, he knows nothing of research on the place of myth in human society. I hardly think it's UNCIVIL to point that out.
Nah Lulu, you are just so tied up in accusations you couldn't help but to help yourself...
No where in my post did I say the "subject" was a load of crap...
I said "it's all a load of crap" speaking in general context and nothing more. Which I am illustrating and I will try and do that quite plainly...As for your accusations, I will forgive you, as it's the religious entity in me. :wah:
When I said "it's all a load of crap" I was talking about all of the accusations pertaining to atheism derived from, presumably, the entire world of whom believes in a god. I was talking about the fact that such accusations against people of whom one has never met was rather sharp, and in all respect you should have taken it as a compliment...Furthermore, seeing as how we're on the subject of accusations and whether or not those accusations can be proven as pure truth, I think you should get to know me better and realize that I am nothing but fair in all of my views.
Educated? Educated in what? A bunch of kids running around the sandbox crying over a Tonka Truck? :wah:
Go back and read what KSnyder said about the subject being "a load of crap." Obviously, he is uneducated about the subject....which is what I said. Clearly, he knows nothing of research on the place of myth in human society. I hardly think it's UNCIVIL to point that out.
Nah Lulu, you are just so tied up in accusations you couldn't help but to help yourself...
No where in my post did I say the "subject" was a load of crap...
I said "it's all a load of crap" speaking in general context and nothing more. Which I am illustrating and I will try and do that quite plainly...As for your accusations, I will forgive you, as it's the religious entity in me. :wah:
When I said "it's all a load of crap" I was talking about all of the accusations pertaining to atheism derived from, presumably, the entire world of whom believes in a god. I was talking about the fact that such accusations against people of whom one has never met was rather sharp, and in all respect you should have taken it as a compliment...Furthermore, seeing as how we're on the subject of accusations and whether or not those accusations can be proven as pure truth, I think you should get to know me better and realize that I am nothing but fair in all of my views.
Educated? Educated in what? A bunch of kids running around the sandbox crying over a Tonka Truck? :wah:
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
I first read this article on nobeliefs.com which I stumbled across yesterday, which purports to be a site for "freethinkers". My problem with the article is that its not so much of a defense of atheism, but rather yet another attack on religion in general, as the rebuttals to most of the points reveal. While I am not an atheist, and would understandably not understand the points of view of those who are, I'm not discounting that atheists in general are not well understood by those of us who aren't. (wow, that didn't make sense! I hope you understand where i'm going )
My problems with atheists in general are not any of the points mentioned in the article, but a basic disagreement with atheism itself. The problem with atheism is that it presumes that human logic, science and reason is self-evident and infallible, and should universally be accepted as being good and correct at all times. This is a remnant of the enlightenment that has over the centuries become as dogmatic as any religion. Logic, reason, and science are all excellent tools to acquire knowledge, and as long as all you are trying to figure out is how things work, those three things are all you will need. but to theorize that all questions can be explained by reason and logic is neither reasonable or logical. In essence there is a myth built around reason to the point where discussion along those lines with atheists is bound to raise the same ire as the faithful have about challenges to their beliefs. (As I'm bound to hear shortly )
I would also like to see the actual studies and statistics behind such statements as "Religions have caused more wars than any other reason" and "religion is a tool of the government to keep the people in line" those mantras have been repeated so many time without objective proof that no one even questions them any more, and seem to be the usual one-two repartee given by atheists.
I certainly do not have any problem with anyone having a point of view, but I and many others do not see Atheism as being anything other than a myth of another stripe.
)My problems with atheists in general are not any of the points mentioned in the article, but a basic disagreement with atheism itself. The problem with atheism is that it presumes that human logic, science and reason is self-evident and infallible, and should universally be accepted as being good and correct at all times. This is a remnant of the enlightenment that has over the centuries become as dogmatic as any religion. Logic, reason, and science are all excellent tools to acquire knowledge, and as long as all you are trying to figure out is how things work, those three things are all you will need. but to theorize that all questions can be explained by reason and logic is neither reasonable or logical. In essence there is a myth built around reason to the point where discussion along those lines with atheists is bound to raise the same ire as the faithful have about challenges to their beliefs. (As I'm bound to hear shortly
)I would also like to see the actual studies and statistics behind such statements as "Religions have caused more wars than any other reason" and "religion is a tool of the government to keep the people in line" those mantras have been repeated so many time without objective proof that no one even questions them any more, and seem to be the usual one-two repartee given by atheists.
I certainly do not have any problem with anyone having a point of view, but I and many others do not see Atheism as being anything other than a myth of another stripe.
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RedGlitter
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Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
ShawnG;504607 wrote: I first read this article on nobeliefs.com which I stumbled across yesterday, which purports to be a site for "freethinkers". My problem with the article is that its not so much of a defense of atheism, but rather yet another attack on religion in general, as the rebuttals to most of the points reveal. While I am not an atheist, and would understandably not understand the points of view of those who are, I'm not discounting that atheists in general are not well understood by those of us who aren't. (wow, that didn't make sense! I hope you understand where i'm going )
My problems with atheists in general are not any of the points mentioned in the article, but a basic disagreement with atheism itself. The problem with atheism is that it presumes that human logic, science and reason is self-evident and infallible, and should universally be accepted as being good and correct at all times. This is a remnant of the enlightenment that has over the centuries become as dogmatic as any religion. Logic, reason, and science are all excellent tools to acquire knowledge, and as long as all you are trying to figure out is how things work, those three things are all you will need. but to theorize that all questions can be explained by reason and logic is neither reasonable or logical. In essence there is a myth built around reason to the point where discussion along those lines with atheists is bound to raise the same ire as the faithful have about challenges to their beliefs. (As I'm bound to hear shortly )
I would also like to see the actual studies and statistics behind such statements as "Religions have caused more wars than any other reason" and "religion is a tool of the government to keep the people in line" those mantras have been repeated so many time without objective proof that no one even questions them any more, and seem to be the usual one-two repartee given by atheists.
I certainly do not have any problem with anyone having a point of view, but I and many others do not see Atheism as being anything other than a myth of another stripe.
Great comments, Shawn! And welcome to FG!
)My problems with atheists in general are not any of the points mentioned in the article, but a basic disagreement with atheism itself. The problem with atheism is that it presumes that human logic, science and reason is self-evident and infallible, and should universally be accepted as being good and correct at all times. This is a remnant of the enlightenment that has over the centuries become as dogmatic as any religion. Logic, reason, and science are all excellent tools to acquire knowledge, and as long as all you are trying to figure out is how things work, those three things are all you will need. but to theorize that all questions can be explained by reason and logic is neither reasonable or logical. In essence there is a myth built around reason to the point where discussion along those lines with atheists is bound to raise the same ire as the faithful have about challenges to their beliefs. (As I'm bound to hear shortly
)I would also like to see the actual studies and statistics behind such statements as "Religions have caused more wars than any other reason" and "religion is a tool of the government to keep the people in line" those mantras have been repeated so many time without objective proof that no one even questions them any more, and seem to be the usual one-two repartee given by atheists.
I certainly do not have any problem with anyone having a point of view, but I and many others do not see Atheism as being anything other than a myth of another stripe.
Great comments, Shawn! And welcome to FG!
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
ShawnG:-6
Excellent post. Good points.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Excellent post. Good points.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
ShawnG:-6
I finished a book a short while ago, "The Twilight of Atheism", Alister McGrath. In this book he traces the history of atheism over the centuries up to the present day.
Shalom
Ted:-6
I finished a book a short while ago, "The Twilight of Atheism", Alister McGrath. In this book he traces the history of atheism over the centuries up to the present day.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
ShawnG;504607 wrote: I first read this article on nobeliefs.com which I stumbled across yesterday, which purports to be a site for "freethinkers". My problem with the article is that its not so much of a defense of atheism, but rather yet another attack on religion in general, as the rebuttals to most of the points reveal. While I am not an atheist, and would understandably not understand the points of view of those who are, I'm not discounting that atheists in general are not well understood by those of us who aren't. (wow, that didn't make sense! I hope you understand where i'm going )
My problems with atheists in general are not any of the points mentioned in the article, but a basic disagreement with atheism itself. The problem with atheism is that it presumes that human logic, science and reason is self-evident and infallible, and should universally be accepted as being good and correct at all times. This is a remnant of the enlightenment that has over the centuries become as dogmatic as any religion. Logic, reason, and science are all excellent tools to acquire knowledge, and as long as all you are trying to figure out is how things work, those three things are all you will need. but to theorize that all questions can be explained by reason and logic is neither reasonable or logical. In essence there is a myth built around reason to the point where discussion along those lines with atheists is bound to raise the same ire as the faithful have about challenges to their beliefs. (As I'm bound to hear shortly )
I would also like to see the actual studies and statistics behind such statements as "Religions have caused more wars than any other reason" and "religion is a tool of the government to keep the people in line" those mantras have been repeated so many time without objective proof that no one even questions them any more, and seem to be the usual one-two repartee given by atheists.
I certainly do not have any problem with anyone having a point of view, but I and many others do not see Atheism as being anything other than a myth of another stripe.
Its a good point well made, I myself am someone who believes in god (though not in the god that most religions talk about), but who is also scientifically trained, and I would like to point out immediately that not all scientists are atheists by any means, as science is not a religion and does not attempt to be, neither does it replace religion as it is not involved in the basic religious questions as they appear to be unanswerable using the scientific method. Categorizing all people who are scientifically inclined in a way that makes them appear that they are cold and brutal atheists (I am not saying atheists are cold and brutal either, I know many such people are they are among the best people I know) with no regard for spiritual matters is as unfair as saying that all religious people are zealots who want to live in the 12th century, create a world ruled by allah, or are mindless minions of the catholic church. Where scientists and Christians (or other faiths) get into difficulties is where people take literally the allegorical tales told in religious books to be "scientific" truths (eg, the world is not 6,000 years old according to all available material evidence, its not a scientific argument). These may be religious truths, but they are not scientific ones, thats where the sophistry, dogma, and metaphysics comes in, which as a scientist I totally disagree with.
)My problems with atheists in general are not any of the points mentioned in the article, but a basic disagreement with atheism itself. The problem with atheism is that it presumes that human logic, science and reason is self-evident and infallible, and should universally be accepted as being good and correct at all times. This is a remnant of the enlightenment that has over the centuries become as dogmatic as any religion. Logic, reason, and science are all excellent tools to acquire knowledge, and as long as all you are trying to figure out is how things work, those three things are all you will need. but to theorize that all questions can be explained by reason and logic is neither reasonable or logical. In essence there is a myth built around reason to the point where discussion along those lines with atheists is bound to raise the same ire as the faithful have about challenges to their beliefs. (As I'm bound to hear shortly
)I would also like to see the actual studies and statistics behind such statements as "Religions have caused more wars than any other reason" and "religion is a tool of the government to keep the people in line" those mantras have been repeated so many time without objective proof that no one even questions them any more, and seem to be the usual one-two repartee given by atheists.
I certainly do not have any problem with anyone having a point of view, but I and many others do not see Atheism as being anything other than a myth of another stripe.
Its a good point well made, I myself am someone who believes in god (though not in the god that most religions talk about), but who is also scientifically trained, and I would like to point out immediately that not all scientists are atheists by any means, as science is not a religion and does not attempt to be, neither does it replace religion as it is not involved in the basic religious questions as they appear to be unanswerable using the scientific method. Categorizing all people who are scientifically inclined in a way that makes them appear that they are cold and brutal atheists (I am not saying atheists are cold and brutal either, I know many such people are they are among the best people I know) with no regard for spiritual matters is as unfair as saying that all religious people are zealots who want to live in the 12th century, create a world ruled by allah, or are mindless minions of the catholic church. Where scientists and Christians (or other faiths) get into difficulties is where people take literally the allegorical tales told in religious books to be "scientific" truths (eg, the world is not 6,000 years old according to all available material evidence, its not a scientific argument). These may be religious truths, but they are not scientific ones, thats where the sophistry, dogma, and metaphysics comes in, which as a scientist I totally disagree with.
"We are never so happy, never so unhappy, as we imagine"
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Le Rochefoucauld.
"A smack in the face settles all arguments, then you can move on kid."
My dad 1986.
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Galbally:-6
Thanks for an excellent post.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Thanks for an excellent post.
Shalom
Ted:-6
Ten Myths/Ten Truths About Atheism
Galbally;504868 wrote: Its a good point well made, I myself am someone who believes in god (though not in the god that most religions talk about), but who is also scientifically trained, and I would like to point out immediately that not all scientists are atheists by any means, as science is not a religion and does not attempt to be, neither does it replace religion as it is not involved in the basic religious questions as they appear to be unanswerable using the scientific method.
That's exactly right, and part of the point I've been trying to make. Science itself in the pure sense makes no claim to supercede religion, and cannot logically, The problem arises when people do make it a religion in and of itself.
And BTW thanks for the welcome everybody! I often stray into the politics & religion discussions on boards devoted to other subjects, so I thought I would try to find a board for this type of discussion itself, I like what I've seen so far :guitarist
That's exactly right, and part of the point I've been trying to make. Science itself in the pure sense makes no claim to supercede religion, and cannot logically, The problem arises when people do make it a religion in and of itself.
And BTW thanks for the welcome everybody! I often stray into the politics & religion discussions on boards devoted to other subjects, so I thought I would try to find a board for this type of discussion itself, I like what I've seen so far :guitarist